In the real tally of violence, Palestinians have it much worse.

[bravenak]

In the real tally of violence, Palestinians have it much worse
There is no Palestinian without a personal and familial history of injustice that was caused by, and is still caused by Israel.
By Amira Hass | Nov. 21, 2013 | 3:08 AM |

Anyone who has worn a uniform past or in present, whether speaking on the record or off, immediately “knows” that the latest terror attack and what looks to soldiers as the latest attempted terror attack does not signify the beginning of a third Intifada. Or, they "know" it does signify such a beginning, and it's all because of the peace negotiations or because of Palestinian incitement, or both. Relying on the knowledgeable military brass is a fixed Israeli reflex; it is part of the balance of power and part of how the Israelis exert control over their subjects.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.559217

[libodem]

1. Thank you bravenak

I can't help but to have pity on the underdogs. I'm still waiting to see the city of lighthouse love, shine some goodness and mercy on these citizens.

[bravenak]

3. I always root for the underdog.

I feel like things are starting to move forward and we will see some big changes coming soon.
I'm with you, hoping that compassion breaks out and infects the whole place.

[libodem]

7. I watched a Charlie Rose interview

On PBS a couple of nights ago. There were two guests. I don't remember their names. The first was an Arab refered to as Arabia's Buffett. He was insufferable but not as bad as Israel's economy minister. What a hardline asshole he was. I tried to be open minded and I was a little swayed by the Lighthouse beacon spreading goodwill on earth, but in the next breath he said the peace talks were worthless and there would never be a two state solution. Crashing bore.

[bravenak]

107. I hope that this hard line thinking is dying like the Republican Party here at home.

I just don't think that the government is representing the wishes of the people.

[libodem]

112. I hope so, too

I felt I owed it to myself to listen. He was operating out I'd a very fear based reality. I wanted to get inside his head and see through his eyes, so I did my best to open my mind and listen I tried to allow myself to be swayed by the heavy need for militant inflexibility, but I could only go so far in understanding.

To me it would be analogous to regularly sending army swat teams onto Native American reservations, shooting at them, arresting them with sentences 10 times as harsh as non-native people get, building on their sovereign nation whenever a town needed to expand, and punishing rock throwers with AR15's and ten year sentences It is all around asymmetrical warfare.

Humans are hardwired to be angry when situations are not fair. They want revenge and to settle scores. It's a lose lose situation.

[bravenak]

113. That's how I saw it too, through the American eye. I think they're trying to put them on the

Reservation and not even let them out, except by permit through a border, and keep the military there to harass the natives into getting angry and violent in order to give themselves an excuse to take more away from them. It's so sad.

[shira]

114. If u really want to know what the IDF is doing, there are 2 Israelis here....

All you have to do is ask to better understand.

There's "Pelsar" and "Israeli". Israeli is about as far left as it gets in Israel. She has kids (can't remember if it's 1 or 2) in the IDF currently.

[oberliner]

2. "...a fixed Israeli reflex"

There also seems to be "a fixed Amira Hass reflex" shown here.

An Israeli is stabbed on a bus by a Palestinian - write an article about how bad Israelis are towards Palestinians.

[bravenak]

4. Yeah, Shira turned me on to Ms.Hass. She's good, huh?

The murder was a horrible, violent event and I'm not trying to minimize the tragedy or saying that the murderer shouldn't go to prison. There should be justice.
The occupation is also horrible and violent. Palestinians are faring far worse than their Israeli counterparts.
I think we can agree that something needs to be done about that situation too. There should be justice.

[King_David]

8. Found in court to be a liar

Amira Hass is not only a liar but has been fined for being one... Not exactly Pulitzer Prize material nor a good character witness for her friends

[azurnoir]

11. oh please she was fined over a decade ago during the second Intifada

and her witnesses were dismissed out of hand because they were Palestinians from the West Bank

[King_David]

13. Decade or whatever

She was found to have lied in court and fined... Amira Hass is a liar.

A journalist who lies simply has zero credibility to supporters or adversaries ...

She is a liar.

[azurnoir]

14. in a trial that was the equivelent of a civil rights worker in the south in 1962

being tried for anything and having only Black witnesses on their side , in Hass's trial only certain witnesses counted and in that case it was the Hebron settlers word that counted

[King_David]

24. She lied , she's a liar, she was fined

Shameful !

[Scootaloo]

76. Still more credible than you'll ever be, Dave. n/t

[Bohunk68]

77. Are you REALLY

King David, or is that a lie?

[BlueToTheBone]

54. He is very attached to his positions

about Israel and it is a waste of energy to have any kind of discussion with him.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. Do you believe every court ruling is fact? Or only ones you agree with? n/t

[King_David]

29. This one is fact .

Amira Hass was caught lying, never bothered appealing either.

[Violet_Crumble]

30. Okay, so it's only the ones you agree with...

Thanks for answering

[King_David]

31. No problem but my answer wasn't the same as you said it was

Feel free to gauge my opinion by asking me instead of presuming to know what I am thinking .

In case you forget an old thread that Oberliner told me not to let you bully me ,I never have.

You just don't intimidate me as much as you actually think you do.

Have a super nice summer evening , and hope you have a wonderful day.

[Violet_Crumble]

32. How is asking you a question bullying?

I asked you whether you believe that all court outcomes are *fact*, or whether it's selective based on whether you agree with it or not. You answered it. Now yr claiming you didn't answer the question I asked you at all.

As for that bullying bullshit, when I returned to I/P recently, I decided to not bother with you unless you said something related to the conflict that interested me or replied to a post of mine, something you started doing pretty soon after my return. Maybe you should take some of yr own 'advice' you've been repeatedly giving to delrem and not take this forum so seriously...

btw, yr response to me just then was incredibly nasty considering what you were replying to. How about sticking to talking about the conflict and not attacking other DUers? Just suggestin'

[King_David]

33. Hey I see your back to your old self,

I suggest if you want to dialogue with me stick to IP topics and cut the personal heavies .

As to delrem , before you returned from your hiatus , I was sure it was you posting under that name ( similar styles and substance ) but I was clearly wrong and see your back now.

I'm happy to discuss IP with both of you civil like,providing that I'm not bullied or accused of posting from "Stormfront " incredulous as that may be imagine a gay Jewish boy - hot button indeed.

[Violet_Crumble]

38. Uh, yr the one who did the personal heavying thing...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113451794#post31

I was actually asking you a question related to the topic when you started with all the bullying bullshit because I dared to ask you a question. And I'm not sure why you keep on repeating that stupid thing where you thought because I got bored and wandered off I was posting using a sock-puppet. That's just incredibly weird, though I guess at least you admit you were wrong. Unlike you, I have a good nose for both zombies and socks...

As I know from experience there's nothing constructive to be gained in trying to discuss I/P issues with you, I'm considering sticking you on ignore and because you insist yr being bullied, that'll be something you'll be happy for me to do, right?

[King_David]

40. Well that's your shtick...I don't have anyone on ignore ever

I just go ahead and ignore them.
But I do remember a while back you did make a big deal of putting Oberliner on ignore for a few months as is your right.

I do have 8 people ignoring me currently but only know of 1 person for sure... Cos he also made a big deal of it. And in my mind they are missing out on some compelling posts that I alone am able to create and deliver with biting wit and subtle sarcasm ...

Anyway if you change your mind I'll see after I land in Miami as I am currently sitting in the airport lounge waiting to board my flight.

[Violet_Crumble]

41. Well, let me start going ahead and ignoring you...

For someone who claims I'm bullying them, yr not behaving like someone who's actually being bullied. They'd be happy with that solution, but then again I've never seen someone who's actually being bullied respond to someone's posts when that person rarely if ever replies to anything they say and go on the attack like you have.

Uh, no-one at DU knows now how many people have them on ignore. And I don't give a shit who you claim's got you on ignore, or where you claim you live or what airport you claim yr at. What's any of that got to do with the I/P conflict?

But, yeah, if you think what you deliver is compelling, witty and subtle, then who am I to point out that I don't give a shit what yr high opinion of yrself is...

[King_David]

42. If you click on yr own transparency page

You can see how many people are ignoring you ... Anybody in DU can...

[Violet_Crumble]

44. No, Skinner removed that a fair while ago...

How long is it since you looked at anyone else's or yr own transparency page? Because no-one at DU now knows how many people have them on ignore...

[King_David]

45. Oh ok it's been a while ,

Thanks.

[azurnoir]

52. no you can not that was removed months ago because people started running 'vanity' threads sbout it

in the Lounge-guess you haven't looked at your own transparency page

[shira]

48. K-D, I think I want your job. You're flying all over the world constantly....

What do you do?

[King_David]

66. I'm a Surgeon and I teach ,

For my 30th birthday gift to myself I will get a visiting placement at Tel Hashomer in Tel Aviv ... The Gayest Jewish city in the world (along with NYC and Miami) .

[azurnoir]

69. Ah you're a doctor I see

are you Canadian too by any chance?

[King_David]

70. No , love it there tho

I go to Montreal often , best bagels , smoked meat and Jewish delis outside of NYC .

Why ? Are you Canadian ?

[azurnoir]

71. Not Toronto though? No sadly I'm not- close though Minnesota

and it's 13 degrees here now

[King_David]

72. Toronto is just like any other US city

Montreals different.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

123. Have you noticed that you have been moved away from the OP?

I wonder why somebody would want to do that, with fake cries of intimidation.

On edit: Keep up the good fight as the hasbarist finger puppets try to veer us off course.

[delrem]

127. "stormfront-like tactics" does not say "identical to stormfront"

That you have to pretend such an identity to make your whining point is a very telling concession.

I never accused *you* of using stormfront-like tactics and vocabulary, I aimed that barb at shira, who *does* use the most emotionally charged language that I've ever read (bar none) to describe her hate. That you don't distinguish from shira either here or when shira pinch hits for you in the middle of a discussion with me, well, that's also a telling concession.

When I protest against "stormfront-like tactics" I'm protesting against intense emotional attacks, using intensely inciting language, aimed at derailing discussions of important matters. \

It's not my problem that my protests against such tactics irritates you.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

122. Oh, god, why are you trying to make this a bullying cry fest?

[bravenak]

124. I think he must be joking.

He lol's at everybody he speaks to on here. Poor guy.

[King_David]

133. What does that mean

A bullying cry feast ?

[bravenak]

16. So now she can't write an opinion piece.

This argument is boring. We had the same one last month.

[King_David]

25. Anyone can write an opinion piece

It's important that anyone reading this work should be aware that Amira Hass was fined in a court of law for having written lies... She has been found to have been a liar...

Sorry to bore you... If you bored don't answer... Doesn't change the fact that your OP was written by a "journalist" fined by a court of law for writing lies....

[bravenak]

34. Was it a kangaroo court?

She wasn't lying.

[King_David]

36. It was an Israeli court

She lied and paid the consequence and tarnished her reputation .

Once a journalist is caught lying there is no coming back.

She may as well start learning to do nails .. A pedicure artist that in time can move on to manicures .

[bravenak]

37. Was she allowed to prove her case by having her witnesses? If not, kangaroo court it is.

Was there video evidence proving she was lying? If so let me get the link so I can see for myself.
In what way would she have personally benefitted from lying?
I think the court made an improper ruling. What does the Israeli constitution say about how the courts are reviewed and governed? What does the constitution say about the rights of journalists and how are they protected under the Israeli constitution against malicious prosecutions by the state? What does that constitution say about freedoms of the press?
Without constitutional protections the state can maliciously prosecute a journalist whenever they want to.

[King_David]

39. Israeli courts found her guilty

And fined her.

She never even bothered to appeal.

The rest of your post , such as demanding video evidence is ...ummm bizarre.

She lied , is a liar and anyone reading her "journalistic works " should bear this in mind and give her articles the huge wallop of skepticism that they deserve ..

[bravenak]

43. Bizarre?

I'm asking about whether she was allowed to properly present a defense and if the constitution provides for freedom of the press. How is that strange? If you don't have an answer that's fine with me, if you don't know what I'm saying I can always clarify it for you.
I don't believe the court ruling.
Was there a jury?

[King_David]

46. Court rulings true

Google it.

[bravenak]

47. So no answer then.

Kangaroo court. I don't need to google it, you just told me all I needed to know by your silence on the issues of constitutional protections. I don't believe she lied just because a court said so.

Since you were providing background information on the journalist, I thought you'd like to provide more. I now see that you're just trying to shut this discussion down.

She is a dedicated journalist wrongly smeared by the court and settler community.

[King_David]

49. She lied she was fined

She never appealed.

She's a liar .

She should be washing cars or flipping burgers ... Journalism is no profession for those lying especially those caught lying.

Shameful

[bravenak]

50. Oh, I see what you're trying to do here.

You almost got me, I thought we were having a real discussion.

You're wrong. The court was malicious.

[King_David]

55. It's actually not a complicated issue

Court finds Amira Hass to be a LIAR ..fines her $$$$... She pays big time $$$$--- doesn't appeal.

The "journalist " lied ... She is a liar ...

Nothing she writes is credible... Because she lied... She's probably lying now... She is a liar....

[bravenak]

57. What did the jury of her peers have to say?

I don't believe this ruling is legitimate. A kangaroo court or monkey court if you prefer.

[King_David]

65. We talking Israel here not her neighbors to the north south or east nt

[bravenak]

125. So.?

Does Israel even have a constitution? A bill of rights? Freedom of the press enshrined in law? Fake court, fake ruling.
A court charging a person with lying outside of the court room? Not allowing time to prepare for the court date. Settler witnesses but no Palestinians witnesses.
Sounds like the government was upset that certain treatment of Palestinians was being exposed and decided to shut her the hell up.
Kangaroo court.

[shira]

80. Hass was flat busted when TV video evidence proved she lied. n/t

[bravenak]

126. Link to the video?

Put up or shut up. I don't believe you, I asked for video evidence before but none of y'all provided it. You have time to post videos that I don't want to watch, so I believe you have time to post this one. If it exists.

[shira]

134. There was TV video evidence at that time in 2001.

Look at the bottom of page 168 and top of page 169 here.


You'll find the same story elsewhere if you google it.

[bravenak]

135. So no video. :(

Sounds like bullshit.

[shira]

136. I've shown you video of other things and you claimed bullshit...

There's clear video of Palestinians throwing rocks at civilian vehicles and you couldn't even acknowledge that.

If there wasn't really any TV video evidence proving Hass a liar, I'm sure someone would've made the case by now. They've had 12 years.

[bravenak]

137. They've have 12 years to put it on the Internet.

I didn't want to watch those other videos. I want to see this one, but it may not exist. Did you see the video or just the judge? It's should be public record by now, it has been a long time. Why are they hiding the video? I tried to find it so I could see for myself if she was lying. I'll just keep calling bullshit until I see proof.

[shira]

138. But you've already made your mind up, no matter what video exists...

You've been shown video of Palestinian children throwing rocks at civilian vehicles and you're incapable of acknowledging that. So what would make anyone here believe you'd acknowledge video that Hass lied?

You'd probably claim the video was cut and edited, or claim that the settlers looked mean so they "probably" did whatever Hass reported. You'd claim that you don't understand the language or what anyone is saying, so you can't make a judgment.

There's simply no amount of video evidence in existence that would convince you.

[bravenak]

139. Yeah, right. I would be convinced if I saw the video,and it did not show anything untoward occurring

on it.
You don't know what I'd claim. I know you think you're the resident psychic, but you really can't read minds.
Until I see evidence I call bullshit.
The whole situation sounds like bullshit.
And yes, you have posted many videos in a foreign language that you knew I couldn't understand.
If it were in Spanish I could probably make out what they were saying. If I posted videos of a news report in Spanish, I'd know what they were talking about but you might not know wtf is going on. And hopefully you'd reserve judgement until you did know.
I don't know who "anybody here " is Shira, but I don't take your word for it because you make up your own facts and statistics.

[azurnoir]

67. she said a bunch of Hebron settlers kicked the corpse of a Palestinian during the second Intifada

she had witnesses that backed up her story but they were all Palestinian, it was their word against that of the settlers gee guess who the court found in favor of

[BlueToTheBone]

56. I tried once to have a discussion

with him and he is very attached to his positions. With him, there are no discussions, just his opinion and it is the only one that counts. I should have him on ignore, but I usually just see his name and I move on in boredom.

[bravenak]

58. I know what you mean.

We had this same argument last month. Pretty soon he'll start LOLing all over the place with his unique form of incredulous humor.

[BlueToTheBone]

59. You've more patience than I.

Ours didn't get nearly that far. I just moved on because it could see there is the world and then there's King David.

I'll bet his funny schick was just as boring as his vehement defense of Israel.

[bravenak]

60. It was indeed. You should read it sometime.

Another great article by the same journalist was discussed there. It devolved into nonsense. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=49249
In the last month or so since that time I've tried not to participate in farcical discussions in I/P.

His royal majesty the king is apparently anointed by god (himself) to be the one who knows all. His Grace bids us all to heed him and submit to his superior knowledge.

[BlueToTheBone]

61. You'd think he was from Eygpt floating

on his barge down denial. Can I throw in a here to kind of keep up the mood of nonsense?

[bravenak]

62. Rofl is absolutely permitted.

This is a nonsense factory sometimes so I guess anything goes.

[BlueToTheBone]

63. True and none of this changes the fact

that Palestinians are getting the worst end of the violence. They throw rocks and the Israelis bomb them. Seems like a horrific way to have to live.

[bravenak]

64. I think the best thing we can do is keep pointing it out.

I notice nobody is trying the dispute the fact that Palestinians suffer more in terms of violence than the Israelis. Rock throwing being countered with gunfire just causes more pain.
I have noticed that the messenger is attacked while the message is being ignored.
It must be horrifying being born into a multigenerational hostage situation.

[King_David]

68. You guys are talking about me as if I'm not here..

But it's ok because it seems affectionate .

[bravenak]

73. I just missed you.

[Israeli]

74. Shalom bravenak....

" Since you were providing background information on the journalist, I thought you'd like to provide more."

If he wont I will ...here you go :

http://www.zcommunications.org/zspace/amirahass

Amira Hass present and past all on one page .

Read the full ' Bio Info ' bravenak ....

Hass was the recipient of the Press Freedom Hero award from the International Press Institute in 2000, the Bruno Kreisky Human Rights Award in 2002, theUNESCO/Guillermo Cano World Press Freedom Prize in 2003, the inaugural award from the Anna Lindh Memorial Fund in 2004 and Hrant Dink Memorial Award in 2009[1].

BTW ...she is a post zionist , as am I , but according to King_David we are nothing but a tiny minority that are either liars or worthy only of his infantile humor .

I trust you can make up your own mind

For further ref :

http://www.ebay.com/ctg/Articles-Post-Zionists-Including-Judith-Butler-Amira-Hass-Tanya-Reinhart-Danny-Rubinstein-Tom-Segev-/120311250

[bravenak]

75. Thank you very much.

I'll be bookmarking this for future reading. I noticed a trend to attack the messenger and ignore the message.
I think Amira Hass seems like a fine journalist. She is a credit to Israel.

[shira]

79. Amira Hass isn't really a post-zionist....

Last edited Sat Nov 23, 2013, 09:12 AM - Edit history (2)

These views make her anti-zionist...

But happily, and to our relief, the Palestinians are one people (unlike the hundreds that were in America ) and the process of Jewish settlement did not wipe them out. We are in a different age and a different region. Thinking big makes us forget that, unlike the model we admire and seek to emulate, we are a minority in the region. And the region is evolving and demanding a change in the rules of the game that have been so convenient for the United States and Israel.

The real question is not whether the solution is “two states” or “one state.” History in any case does not recognize end points – every stage leads to another. Visions are also not lacking. The visions must develop and change during the struggle for equality and justice, otherwise they will become gulags. The question was, and is, how much more bloodshed, suffering and disasters will be needed until the Jewish regime of discrimination and separation, which we have created here over the past 64 years, crumbles.

The Palestinians provided us, the Israelis, a ladder that would have saved us the kind of suffering and loss that we have caused them. A ladder that we could have climbed to a historic rung where we could have been accepted in the region as neighbors who also have roots in this place and rights – not only as aggressive invaders. But successive Israeli governments, with the backing of their voters, have knocked the ladder over. They knew only too well why they must thwart the two-state solution (in its original, pre-1967 borders format ). It would have led to different ways of living together and sharing the land. But the basic logic of these ways of life requires giving up Jewish hegemony and superiority.

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/04/amira-hass-explains-why-israels-u-s-model-of-ethnic-cleansing-failed-and-why-jewish-regime-will-crumble.html

She prefers not to live among Jews, which makes her pretty bigoted.
http://rabble.ca/news/2011/10/revulsion-repression-conversation-amira-hass

"To tell you the truth I cannot see myself living in a purely Jewish environment. I will not be able to move back to an Israel if I had to, and to live in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem.... I told my Palestinian friends, who are Israeli citizens, okay if I am kicked out of Ramallah, I will go and live in a Palestinian neighborhood, in Israel itself."

Neither Tel Aviv or Jerusalem are purely Jewish. There are lots of Jews there, however, like Amos Oz and David Grossman in Jerusalem. Tel Aviv is an extremely liberal city.

I'm sure you'll deny the bigotry. Any settler saying the same thing, that they wouldn't want to live among Palestinians, but instead Jews, is a rightwing bigot in your view. Not so for Hass.

[Israeli]

81. she is shira ...

so is Shulamit Aloni ..... another liar in your book .

you will never understand us ......for you its all about being Jewish/Zionist

for us its about being human .

[shira]

84. I thought post-zionists were strong 2-state advocates. Hass is not.

Here she is calling for a binational state:
http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/13736/binational-state-is-only-solution-israel-journalist-maintains-in-s-f/

"The binational state is the peaceful solution," she said. "The Palestinians are fighting for their rights. The desire for equality is universal, as basic as eating and sleeping."

Now with that in mind, it's no wonder the anti-zionists who want Israel gone just LOVE her!



And if Hass was all about being human, she wouldn't mind living among Jews.

[Israeli]

86. some are shira ....some are not ...

I suggest you go study us some more .

[shira]

89. Some post-zionists are anti-zionists? Like Gideon Levy?

Time to be single-minded
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/time-to-be-single-minded.premium-1.517887

Now I'm confused. What's the difference b/w a post-zionist and anti-zionist? I was led to believe the former are for 2 states while the latter is for one.

Uri Avnery is against anti-zionism. Are you against it too?

I wonder if Amira Hass and Gideon Levy vote Meretz, a Zionist party. Or if Levy hates living among Jews, like Hass does.

[Israeli]

104. I know your confused shira ....

who led you to believe that the former are for 2 states while the latter is for one ?

you think we all speak in one voice ?

Let me confuse you even more .....

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/after-115-years-it-s-time-for-zionism-to-retire-1.426843

( its not behind a paywall BTW )

Who is a Zionist? All the answers are wrong, even if they are more plentiful (and more ridiculous ) than the answers to the other existential question of who is a Jew.

But the Jewish people lives, as they say, and therefore Israel has tried to invent a new Zionism for itself, far more totalitarian than its predecessor. Alongside the religion of security, Zionism has become the state's second recognized religion, forcing itself recklessly on all its subjects. We have room only for "Zionists."

Anyone who tyrannizes another people and anyone who looks away is a Zionist and a son of a Zionist. All of us are Zionists; well, nearly all of us.

Zionist as an adjective has passed from this world, and no one is entitled to hand out grades for Zionism anymore. Anyone who lives here is an Israeli. Anyone who doesn't live here is not Israeli. Period.

[shira]

109. Can't say I'm surprised to see u defending 1-state advocates...

That doesn't make you, Levy, or Hass any better than the far-right settlers and their advocates who believe in annexing the entire W.Bank. You guys deserve each other.

So much for "leftwing" post-zionists who love Rabin, PeaceNow, Meretz, liberal values....

That's all bullshit.

There's no difference between them and the far-right.

[King_David]

111. Interesting and "true" article for anyone

Who values Gideon Levys opinion.

I never met anyone who does...

[delrem]

128. As King_David says, "It was an Israeli court".

It was all in accordance with "Israeli justice", a justice that pelsar never ceases to proclaim is superior to western liberal notions of justice. pelsar the "illiberal liberal" is a person who, along with the likes of King_David, shira, et al, presumes to speak of "the left", while failing to understand the meaning of simple principles that proclaim first of all that every person is presumed to be equal before the law.

How can they they speak of "the left" if they don't proclaim such principles?

Beats me.

[bravenak]

129. They care not for justice, equality, diplomacy or much else I associate with the left.

I really don't understand them. Right is left and left is, I really don't know what it is. Say you want equal rights for gays and they're all for it, but say you want equal rights for Palestinians and they accuse you of wanting to wipe Israel off the map.
I notice a few people have gone quiet in the last 24 hours since netanyahoo didn't get his war.
I wonder where they've gone.

[delrem]

130. Good that bibi didn't get his war - but he's still strutting about like a pouter pigeon.

Obama/Kerry is looking to be different than Obama/Clinton.
I react instantly to the difference. I feel better.

[bravenak]

131. I like Kerry in this position a lot better. Clinton was okay, but Kerry doesn't put up with Bibi's

Shit like Clinton did.
I feel bad but, I'm enjoying the histrionics from Bibi and Fox News. I know the president is doing the right thing if Fox News and Netanyahu both hate it.

[delrem]

132. Yup. an optimistic turn.

[oberliner]

9. She has her moments

There have been some excellent articles from her over the years and some less so. Her angle, though, is usually pretty much the same. And if that's also your angle, then she's a good match.

[Violet_Crumble]

15. I read Reporting From Ramallah. It's very good...

I've got a lot of admiration for Ms Hass. Proof that Israel does produce some great journalists...

[bravenak]

19. She gets people to stop and think about what's going on.

It's refreshing. Israel has indeed produced a fine journalist.

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Yeah, she was one of the first people I read things about the conflict from...

If you haven't read the book I mentioned already, it's worth getting hold of.

http://www.amazon.com/Reporting-Ramallah-Journalist-Occupied-Semiotext/dp/1584350199

[bravenak]

35. If I can get my hands on a paperback I will.

This sounds like a good one, thanks.

[shira]

83. No progressive for peace & against violence should be endorsing Hass....

You cheered on an article by her calling for and inciting violent rock-throwing against Israelis/Jews, which has led to the murder of innocents and their children.

The last time Palestinians were incited to violence against Israelis in general was around 2000-2002 and that Intifada didn't work out too well for the Palestinians, did it? Too many lives lost on both sides, more on the Palestinian.

Not to mention that throwing stones at civilians and calling on children to become militants are war-crimes.

=========

It's hard to believe you think the incident with that young soldier who was stabbed and murdered in a bus last week was a horrible, violent event. Not when you cheerlead and endorse such violence by Hass that has recently led to the murder of innocents.

[Israeli]

87. In defense of Amira Hass ....

http://www.nationofchange.org/blogs/lawrence-davidson/defense-amira-hass-1366131948

[shira]

90. Hass supports rock-throwing at Israelis/Jews because she considers....

...Jews/Israelis/Zionists subhuman and not worthy of basic human rights that all other people have. She despises Jews. It's why she refuses to live among them. That's her prerogative. I just don't see why any progressives/leftists should be cheerleading such hateful bigotry.

"To tell you the truth I cannot see myself living in a purely Jewish environment. I will not be able to move back to an Israel if I had to, and to live in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem.... I told my Palestinian friends, who are Israeli citizens, okay if I am kicked out of Ramallah, I will go and live in a Palestinian neighborhood, in Israel itself."

http://rabble.ca/news/2011/10/revulsion-repression-conversation-amira-hass

Here she is refusing to comment on the baby who was almost killed by rocks...

NERMEEN SHAIKH: But the criticism of this piece, in particular, was quite widespread. And I want to turn to one of the critics of your article. This is Adva Bitton, the mother of three-year-old Adele. Adele, the three-year-old, was critically injured in a stone-throwing incident last month. And the mother wrote in the Hebrew daily Ma’ariv, quote, "I agree with you that everyone deserves their freedom. Arab and Jew alike. I agree with you that we all ought to aspire to liberty, but there isn’t a person on earth who will achieve freedom and liberty by means of an instrument of death. There’s no reason on earth that Adele, my three-year-old daughter, should have to lie in the intensive care unit now, connected to tubes and fighting for her life, and there is no reason, Amira, for you to encourage that." Can you—

AMIRA HASS: Yeah.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: —respond to this?

AMIRA HASS: No, I don’t want to respond.

AMY GOODMAN: What happened? What happened to her daughter?

AMIRA HASS: She drove—she visited friends or family in one of the settlements in the West Bank, and while they were driving back home, some kids from a village are said to have thrown stones, and one hit—one hit her. She made a turn, and she bumped into a truck, and they were wounded, yes.

I don’t think I have to respond to this. It’s her pain, and I don’t—like, people could come and bring the stories of hundreds of Palestinian children who are killed and wounded by Israeli [inaudible], by Israeli bullets and by Israeli tear gas and, I don’t know, whatever. I’m against asymmetry. And I think that I explain very well in my article the differences and the distinction that one has to take.

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/4/10/israeli_journalist_amira_hass_sparks_furor

It doesn't get more cruel or heartless than that. Her contempt for Jews is vile. She doesn't do the Palestinian cause any favors with such an attitude. She basically concedes that the Palestinian cause is as bad as advertised.

[Jefferson23]

91. Produce with a link what you believe demonstrates this poster cheered on rock throwing to

Israelis/Jews. For one, it is your opinion that was Hass's goal, in the OP you're referring to, and
one can rely on your opinion, or not.

You can question anyone's sincerity, as you do with your last statements to bravenak, but keep in mind
there is more than ample documentation of your sincerity regarding Palestinians on this website...I suggest you
think about that fact, before you continue down your questionable path.

[shira]

92. Bravenak can tell you herself that she agreed with Hass' article about stone-throwing....

We had a conversation about it last month. You should google it if you can't wait for Bravenak to respond.

If you want to know more about Hass' contempt for Jews and her attitude towards Jewish civilians who were maimed by rocks, I suggest you read #90 on this very thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=51955

Lastly, I don't share the same contempt of Palestinians that Hass has for Jews. You mistake my condemnation of Hamas, the PA, Islamic Jihad, and anti-zionists who are for Israel's destruction for hatred of all Palestinians. I realize you believe all Palestinians are the same and they all hate Israel, but that's just not true. Many are quite progressive in the western sense, support Israel, and just want to live in peace. You may think they're very few in number and you may hate them for being traitors, but that's you being you.

[Jefferson23]

93. NO, I asked you, you're the one making tha accusations..so produce the link

that demonstrates your claims about bravenek. And where is the link to Amira's OP?


As I said earlier, there is ample documentation about your sincerity regarding Palestinians on this
website..giving yourself a pat on the back as you state here, is not what I was referring to.

[shira]

94. Google it yourself or ask Bravenak. You're not worth my time. n/t

[Jefferson23]

95. That you decided not to back up your claims speaks volumes about your intentions

and your credibility.

Have a nice day, shira.

[shira]

96. No, it means you're lazy. It took me seconds to find the thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113449249

[Jefferson23]

97. The responsibility belongs to you to produce what you believe demonstrates your claim

against bravenak..not me. As I thought, you made a false claim against this DU member.

[shira]

98. Her support for rock-throwing @ civilians is all over that thread. Don't be lazy...

Start reading.

And once you read it and deny it, I'll have to show you what an incredibly poor reader you are. Or how incredibly dishonest you are.

Don't be lazy.

[Jefferson23]

99. This is about YOUR opinion, that you believe you possess credibility on the I/P subject, well

I have news for you..that is up for grabs, considerably so.

I have no interest nor concern of your opinion of me, shira.

[shira]

100. If you really want to know the score, read that thread....

Stop demanding that I show you what you can find for yourself. I even supplied you with the thread. Do I need to hold your hand too?

Lazy ass.

[Jefferson23]

115. I already answered you, stop repeating yourself. Your claims against bravenak are false.

Calling me names won't change that.

Have an enjoyable evening, shira.

[bravenak]

101. I didn't say that.

I said:Response to shira (Reply #176)Sat Oct 26, 2013, 07:54 PM
bravenak (1,781 posts)
196. I never saw them throw rocks at babies or grandmothers.

I was trying out your tactic of accusing a stranger on the internet of supporting the murder of babies and grandmothers.
I don't know for sure that they're doing the things you accuse them of.

Besides I kinda wanted to talk about the impassable, baby killing terror tunnels. That don't exist.
Or the many tunnel murders of civilians and small disabled children. That aren't happening.
Or all of the tunnel kidnappings of civilians and families. That aren't happening.
How can I believe the baby killing rock murdering is happening?
The one video I did understand somewhat, I only saw them throwing rocks at soldiers. And I said it was okay to throw rocks at soldiers.
The other video, I could not tell what was going on or why.

Even if I say that they should sit back and submit, like David says, will they?
I don't think so.
If the IDF cant handle a few teenagers then they're screwed.
I'm honest. It's the world that's awful.
Add to Journal Self-delete Edit post Reply to this post
Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

[shira]

102. You made a lot of contradictory statements. It's why I kept pressing for consistency...

You first claimed you're against kids throwing rocks, but were for adults doing so.

Now you claim to be for kids throwing rocks at soldiers. You realize child combatants are a war crime? Yasser Arafat encouraged children to sacrifice themselves by confronting the IDF? I wonder if you'd send your own kids out to do that.

You support that, am I correct? I ask b/c you just wrote:

And I said it was okay to throw rocks at soldiers.

See, I'm giving you another chance. I'm only looking for consistency in your views.

On that thread, I posted 2 videos. Here's one with Palestinian kids throwing stones at civilian vehicles:

And here's another:

Now when you say you're only for children throwing rocks at soldiers, I take that to mean you're against them throwing rocks at civilians. Am I right? Are you going to remain consistent?

Lots of civilians have died due to rock-throwing you seemingly support:
http://blog.camera.org/archives/2013/08/wheres_the_coverage_victims_of.html

I'm just trying to get some real, honest answers from you. If you're going to prevaricate, stonewall, or deflect then why bother having any conversations or debates here?

[bravenak]

103. Your posts are like ransom notes to me.

I was reporting what i had already posted.

[shira]

105. You say one thing, then another. I'm trying to give you a way out....

...if you've changed your mind. I really don't know what you believe about rock-throwing, terror, or whatever when you give me wildly contradictory statements.

[bravenak]

106. That's because I won't help to to call children terrorists.

Kids throwing rocks are kids throwing rocks. Anyone can go back and read it for themselves. You want to tell people what they think, but you are often wrong. That's been shown time and time again.
My dad used to say:
If you meet a jerk in the morning, you met a jerk in the morning; if there's a jerk everywhere you go, maybe it's you.

[shira]

108. Simple questions....

1. In light of Arafat's video praising child militants sacrificing themselves for the cause, do u support sending children out to perhaps sacrifice themselves, get hurt, maimed, or killed? Would you send your own little children out to do that?

2. You were just presented 2 videos where children are throwing rocks at civilian vehicles. In the last video (Silwan) there was a boy in that vehicle. You are against that, correct? You wouldn't send your own kids out to throw rocks at civilian vehicles, would you?

========

I don't see how answering these questions either way helps anyone to call children terrorists.

I can only assume the worst when you prevaricate, stonewall, and deflect. When you do that, you're being dishonest. Isn't the Palestinian cause righteous enough for you that you shouldn't have to lie or hide your true feelings?

[bravenak]

110. Do we really have to do this again?

I am against killing children. I've already said that. Doesn't matter what type of children, I just dont think we should kill kids. Or anyone really.
I already said I don't know what they were saying on one of the videos and on It I couldn't tell wtf was going on. I believe I had decided that the soldiers had probably terrorizing the children causing them to throw rocks, and I strongly disapprove of using soldiers against children.
As far as the rock throwing incident i looked it up and no rocks struck a child. A rock struck a vehicle which then stopped abruptly, the vehicle following closely behind struck that vehicle, the impact causing the child to sustain injuries. The rock thrower was never identified.

[shira]

116. I know u said yr against children getting hurt, but children have died due to stone-throwing...

Whether the stone-throwers were kids or adults, whether they were aiming at adult civilians or military, the fact is stones have killed children.

I presented you with 2 videos. In the first, you're right about a stone hitting a vehicle that stopped and caused the car behind it to crash. That car had a baby in it who almost died. I can't understand why you WOULDN'T condemn the stone-throwers, whether kids or adults.

In the 2nd video above, a car was going through a windy street in Silwan (E.Jerusalem) and there was a little boy inside the car. In that video, we can see Palestinian kids throwing rocks at the car. How is it possible you cannot condemn this act but then claim you're against people attacking kids?

Help me understand you.

[bravenak]

117. It'd not my job to condemn every single act of violence committed by whomever you choose

To be your whipping boy of the day.
You show me videos of angry people throwing rocks at some other people who are driving on roads but I never get the stone throwers side of the story. Why are they mad? Did somebody steal something from them? Terrorize them in some way? How do you justify stealing land and tearing down their homes and using soldiers to keep them oppressed but condemn them throwing rocks for unknown reasons? Your videos aren't as significant as you think they are.

[shira]

118. okay, that's an answer. sort of...

You've been shown a video of kids throwing rocks at a civilian vehicle which just so happened to have a young kid inside. You've all but JUSTIFIED kids throwing rocks at civilian vehicles for whatever reasons. How do u know the reason they were throwing rocks? Maybe they just hate Jews. It shouldn't matter what the reason is when throwing rocks at civilian vehicles with innocent people is ALWAYS wrong.

Hell, if u think these kids have good reason to throw rocks at civilians then maybe settlers have good reason to take out their aggressions on innocent Palestinians. How do u know they wern't robbed? Were they terrorized in any way, mad at something some Palestinian did?

It doesn't matter, does it? Attacking civilians is always wrong.

See, here's where you contradict yourself. You probably believe it's always wrong to attack innocent Palestinians. But not so much Israeli Jews.

Mental disconnect.

[bravenak]

119. I have no idea what's going on in any of your videos. They're clips and in a language I don't speak

Anyway enough videos. Palestinians suffer more in terms of violence.

[shira]

120. Right. Don't believe your eyes. Obviously, the people in those vehicles....

...must have done something to make Palestinian kids throw stones at their cars. Whatever the reason...

IOW, it's okay for Palestinians to throw rocks at civilian Jewish or Israeli vehicles. They must have good reason. They've suffered more so they get a free pass to attack innocents. But if anyone argued Jews have good reasons to throw stones at Palestinian civilian vehicles, you'd be enraged. I guess if you had a video of Jews being bad to Palestinian innocents, someone could always argue they don't know what's going on, they don't know the language, and that way they never have to condemn the indefensible. Maybe we should try that. Find something and I'll prevaricate and deflect just like you. I'll do whatever I can to NOT condemn the indefensible. Let's see how you respond.

[bravenak]

121. You're just trying to derail the thread.

That's unfortunate.

[shira]

5. Where's the rest of the article? Did u actually read the whole thing?

Or did u just read the 1st paragraph like the rest of us cheap bastards who refuse to pay Haaretz?

[delrem]

10. How to bypass the paywall

Copy/paste the title into google search:
"In the real tally of violence, Palestinians have it much worse."
Click the first link to "haaretz (blog)"

read for free.

This seems to be a general technique for passing paywalls at many news sites.

You're welcome, all.

[Violet_Crumble]

17. Thanks for the tip...

I'll be doing that from now on

[delrem]

21. hey there!

I've been enjoying this latest sequence in DU I/P

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Hey!

Last edited Fri Nov 22, 2013, 08:01 AM - Edit history (1)

Yeah, I find every now and again there'll be a thread where the people participating actually contribute some stuff worth reading. This is one of them*

* with one notable exception...

[azurnoir]

12. WATCH: IDF detains 5 to 9-year-old Palestinian children in Qaddum

hardly a first supposedly the age of criminal responsibility 12

[bravenak]

18. This is scary.

Those poor kids should not have to grow up being presumed to criminals. It would be nice if soldiers treated kids like kids.

[delrem]

20. Scarier than that.

Those poor kids were treated as enemy combatants in a war zone.

This is IDF military occupation and control, yet the Palestinians are called "terrorists" as in "terrorist rock throwing kids" if they fight back in any way. Israel denies that a country called 'Palestine' exists so those kids and their families have nowhere to flee.
It's a fucked up condition to put children of multiple generations through.

In truth I don't know what to make of it. That's a huge population of non-Jewish Palestinians to keep in military subjugation.
The whole thing is counter-intuitive from a progressive POV.

[bravenak]

22. This is why I oppose the idea of calling children terrorists.

I don't understand why the left in America isn't more outraged by the policies and actions of a government they say is our closest ally. It says a lot about our government.
You can't keep people hostage and expect them to be calm and tranquil, while you terrorize them and steal their land. It makes no sense at all.
I think that we're about to see some changes coming along real soon.

[azurnoir]

51. More info about the kids

Witnesses: Israeli troops cuff Palestinian children 11/16

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=647733

and another one from this week

11-year-old detained in Jerusalem for throwing rocks 11/21

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=649457

[bravenak]

53. I think this is very sad and I believe the us is in part to blame.

I don't think helping fund their military is helping the situation at all. And I don't see how terrorizing a whole generations of youths and demonizing them will help the peace process or do anything to prevent future escalations of violence.
I try to imagine living there and I just can't. I would be livid if this were to happen to my kids. They're 8 and 4 so I think they're just about old enough to be arrested by the IDF. Imagining that infuriates me. It's quite sickening and I can't believe people defend this practice and call these children terrorists.

[Jefferson23]

28. How any soldier can sleep at night after conducting themselves this way is beyond me.

More of them should refuse to serve Israel.

[Scootaloo]

78. That's like saying more southern slaveowners should have stopped owning slaves

It's easier to abuse those whom your culture condones abuse against, than it is to challenge the culture at real personal risk. Even if you know it's wrong to do so, it's damn hard to resist that pressure.

[Jefferson23]

82. When the objective is to inject fear in a child of 5 years old, you're a participant

in obstructing their human rights. The IDF have a long stained history of abusing Palestinian children.
Although I agree with you the orders come from the Israeli government which drives this conduct,
it is illegal conduct, nonetheless.

Is it difficult for soldiers to resist? Firstly, I don't know what percentage of the IDF find this conduct
objectionable.

It appears to me that if more soldiers refused to carry out such orders, the Israeli
government would be inclined to curtail the abuse to avoid a PR disaster.

Thankfully, there are exceptional individuals and we can only hope there would be more of them,
like this young man:

Israeli conscientious objector to refuse IDF service for 8th time

snip* Over the last decade, the IDF largely refrained from repeatedly putting conscientious objectors on trial. Until now the record was nine trials, which took place eight years ago, and the IDF preferred to release them after shorter prison sentences due to their unsuitability (in order to prevent a media frenzy over the trial, as took place six years ago in 2003).

Two months ago, Blanc told Haaretz that he assumes the army is trying to wear him down with the repeated confinements until he gives in and enlists, but he does not intend to do so.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israeli-conscientious-objector-to-refuse-idf-service-for-8th-time.premium-1.512882

[Scootaloo]

85. Absolutely

I'm not excusing the Nuremberg defense, but there is a reason people fall back on it so often - and it's not just to shift blame.

If your society tells you, "those people are subhuman, and you can treat them any way you like," then it's easier to follow that - even when you know it is wrong - than it is to challenge the weight of society. When you consider a society that will actively seek your punishment if you don't cave to the pressure it exerts?

Again, it's not an excuse. Just pointing out that for most people, it's easier to go along to get along, even at great moral cost, than it is to rock the boat for what's right.

[Jefferson23]

88. Agreed, and I did not intend to suggest you were excusing their conduct.

We have our own stains in the US through torture which was redefined as enhanced interrogation.
Our CIA and Pentagon who gave cover to physicians to implement heinous acts, betraying their
hippocratic oath..we are dependent on those who refuse, those who leak information, they do
not make up the majority who serve, sadly.