Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumThe BDS movement and the opportunistic exploitation of self-denying Jews
I would estimate that about 40-45% of Jews support Israel without qualification, about 50-55% support a two state solution upholding both Israeli and Palestinian national rights and favour open debate on Israeli policies, and less than 1% hold anti-Zionist views.
It needs to be emphasized that most of the Jews who support two states are strongly committed to the well-being of Israel and Jews generally. They are no different to citizens in other liberal democratic societies who critique the policies of their own government - for example, Australians who repudiate the Coalition Government's policies on Indigenous issues or refugees, or Americans who oppose their government's involvement in Afghanistan or Iraq - without demonizing their entire state or nation as evil and oppressive.
In contrast, the anti-Zionist Jews mostly believe in the so-called "one state" solution whereby the existing Jewish State of Israel should be eliminated, and replaced by an exclusivist Arab State of Greater Palestine in which Jews would be at best tolerated as a religious minority. Their viewpoint is not only tiny in Jewish communities worldwide, but also marginal even among left-wing Jews.....
....So why does the BDS movement highlight the views of this small group of anti-Zionist Jews who are so unrepresentative of collective Jewish opinion? There are two reasons.
The first is a continuation of malevolent historical practice. There has been a long history of anti-Semitism in parts of the radical Left whereby a small number of unrepresentative token Jews are opportunistically encouraged to exploit their own religious and cultural origins in order to vilify their own people. This happened in 1929 when American Jewish Communists were obliged to defend the anti-Jewish pogroms in Palestine. It happened again in 1952/53 when Jewish Communists were rolled out to endorse Stalin's anti-Semitic Slansky show trial in Czechoslovakia, and the so-called Doctors' Plot. It has happened many times since 1967 when left-wing Jews have been pressured to publicly conform to the anti-Zionist fundamentalism of the far Left.
Radical Left groups would never employ such techniques against other historically oppressed nations. They would not publish the views of Indigenous Australians who completely oppose land rights, or demand that a feminist journal publish the views of women who totally oppose abortion. They would certainly not publicize the views of Palestinians or Arabs who support Zionism....
more @ http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2013/11/11/3888143.htm
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Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)In that one he muddles around oblivious that one doesn't need to be Jewish to be a Zionist, and one doesn't need to be a Zionist to be Jewish. Then some academic cat-fight erupts in the comments section where my eyes glazed over, and the question I'm left asking after the whole thing is:
If I'm an individual who's not a card-carrying member of any group or movement and I decide I'm going to boycott specifically products made in the West Bank, and a more lack-lustre and half-hearted boycott of Israeli goods (only when I remember to also boycott American goods), why would I be associated with a movement? I'm going it alone because I feel it's the right thing to do...
shira
(30,109 posts)Even Noam Chomsky acknowledges it in the video (see #2 below).
Reminder: There are plenty of folks who support a global BDS movement that targets all Israel and calls for Israel's destruction (Noam Chomsky states the obvious at 1:05 in the video).
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)I'd be curious to know if you believe that boycotting products from the settlements in the West Bank is the act of people trying to destroy Israel blah blah blah.
shira
(30,109 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Nobel peace laureates call for Israel military boycott over Gaza assault.
A group of Nobel peace prize-winners, prominent artists and activists have issued a call for an international military boycott of Israel following its assault on the Gaza Strip this month.
The letter also denounces the US, EU and several developing countries for what it describes as their "complicity" through weapons sales and other military support in the attack that killed 160 Palestinians, many of them civilians, including about 35 children.
The 52 signatories include the Nobel peace laureates Mairead Maguire and Adolfo Pérez Esquivel; the film directors Mike Leigh and Ken Loach; the author Alice Walker; the US academic Noam Chomsky; Roger Waters of Pink Floyd; and Stéphane Hessel, a former French diplomat and Holocaust survivor who was co-author of the universal declaration of human rights.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/28/nobel-laureates-call-israel-boycott
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)I've only watched the first few minutes of the clip and will watch the rest later this afternoon, but as usual Professor Chomsky makes some very good points that are worth thinking about. Though I do wonder if Shira's actually watched this clip because even in the first few minutes, he's saying things that would normally have her erupting in rage 
shira
(30,109 posts)
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)(as opposed to ProIsrael implied zero sum game there) who think or form opinions based on talking heads tell us they think, it's called independent thought, sort of a trait with most "leftists" probably how we got to be Leftists
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)I think it'd be interesting if you could summarise what it is you think Chomsky was saying in that clip, and doing it in something that isn't some 'raaaah bigots! anti-Semites! bigots! raaaaah *head explodes*' type of thing. Because I don't think yr really grasping what he was saying..
Having watched the whole clip through, I agree with much of what he says, don't really know about other bits, and disagree with a few things. His really clear point, which you couldn't have missed if you'd watched it, is he agrees with BDS if it meets two criteria. The first is that it isn't harming the victims (he means the Palestinians, btw), and the second is that it educates and is clearly targeted. He mentions a few examples of BDS activities he'd fully support, like boycotting products from the settlements or targeting the US military machine in the hopes of stopping them supplying Israel with military shit. He also talks about the boycott of South Africa and how it only came about a long time after people had been educated about what South Africa was doing, but how it wasn't the boycott that resulted in change. Change came about because the US finally got the message that it was the only country supporting South Africa and US policy finally changed towards South Africa.
But you might like to take note of how Chomsky presented his thoughts. They were clear, without histrionics, containing a lot of knowledge of the situation, and weren't abusive. Those are the reasons people listen to him, and even if they disagree with him, they'll go away and think about what he said, whereas you don't get anywhere near a similar reaction. Food for thought...
shira
(30,109 posts)He calls it a hypocritical, bigoted movement.
So no, he doesn't support a movement he believes is hypocritical and antisemitic.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)hee hee.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)If yr immediate response was 'Shira!', you got it spot on...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=224043&mesg_id=224178
Okay, now I'm off to watch the rest of the clip while I eat my lunch
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Typical, she leaves out a link to support her smearing of Chomsky...her new found friend!
shira:
chomsky...
has a history with holocaust deniers and has been quoted as saying holocaust denial is not anti-semitism. He cannot be taken seriously on any matters concerning Jews.
Thanks for the link, Violet.
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Chomsky is expressing his opinion which he articulates quite well. Agree or not,
or perhaps only in part but it has been pointed out to you the level he actively pursues
in challenging the status quo. You do not agree with him, regardless.
If he helps your case in this instance, use him...but at least recognize that he is not in your
camp on the I/P conflict. His concern is that one needs to make sure decided
upon tactics are used to educate and to reach the desired outcome.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)pursuing a pariah state,( Israel ) and has been for decades to bring enough international support to meet that end
and allow for a two state solution. He is pragmatic about it..he is not talking about a two state solution
that would leave the Palestinians with little more than Bantustan type state.
shira
(30,109 posts)...that in no way helps Palestinians, that says something and just confirms what the pro-Israel side has been saying for years. He and Finkelstein both loathe the lies and bullshit of BDS.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)ending the occupation..ok. Maybe you'll finally end your hysteria about it and support Finkelstein
and Chomsky in their pursuit for a two state solution...not a Bantustan state for the long
suffering Palestinians.
