'Gaza Ark' against Israeli blockade to be launched spring 2014

[oberliner]

GAZA CITY (Ma'an) -- The closure of the Rafah crossing between Egypt and the Gaza Strip has delayed the launch of Gaza Ark, an improvised cargo ship built by Gaza fishermen set to sail to Europe in protest against the Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip.

Member of the Gaza Strip association of fishermen Mahfouth Kabariti said Sunday that the Gaza Ark was supposed to set sail by the end of 2013, but as a result of the closure of Rafah crossing, the launch has been delayed to spring 2014.

He noted that in order to be seaworthy, the Gaza Ark still needed international standard navigation equipment that could only be brought into Gaza via the Rafah crossing.

Kabariti added that several donors had supported the idea of Gaza Ark and that many countries were willing to allow it to enter their harbors.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=645783

Anybody see any irony in the first paragraph?

[dipsydoodle]

1. No.

Its in the Quran so why wouldn't they use that expression.

[oberliner]

3. Here is the part I mean

"The closure of the Rafah crossing between Egypt and the Gaza Strip..."

and

"...in protest against the Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip..."

[Scootaloo]

4. Oberliner, I know you're not stupid.

And since you're not stupid, you must certainly know that there is a lot of Gaza border that isn't the Rafah crossing. And every inch of that not-Rafah border is controlled by Israel - land, sea, and air. What this means is that Egypt's closing of Rafah would be inconsequential, if not for the total control exercised by Israel over the rest of the border. You're not stupid, so I must surmise that you are very, very forgetful.

[oberliner]

5. Thanks

From earlier today:

"Congratulations to the Palestinian West Bank hero who killed an Israeli soldier in Afula this morning," Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhum wrote on his Facebook page.

"This is a heroic act of resistance showing that all methods of oppression and terror have not and will not succeed in stopping our people from carrying out jihad and resistance."

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=647084

Seems logical that Israel would not have an open border with Gaza considering the relationship that exists between the governing entities of each.

Egypt, on the other hand....?

[Scootaloo]

6. Egypt is also taking hits from militants over the border, if you've "forgotten"

Regardless of the reasons for closures, the fact is that the people of Gaza aren't doing very well, what with the utter lack of an economy, raw materials, potable water, etc. Which is the point of extra-governmental relief efforts.

Which of course, you seem oppose. Am I reading you correctly on that?

[King_David]

7. If terrorism and murder increases as a result if opening the border

Then I am against opening the border and tearing down the defense wall.

[Scootaloo]

8. David, we're talking about the blockade

It's a different topic than instituting an "open border" policy. A very different topic, in fact.

[shira]

9. And if ending the blockade results in Hamas getting better weapons & using them vs. Israel....

....and the result is more lives lost (far more Palestinians when Israel retaliates) then are you still for or against the Israeli blockade? Remember, Hamas is still in a state of war vs. Israel and there's no reason to believe they're about to make peace or sign a longlasting "hudna" anytime soon.

[Scootaloo]

10. We've had discussions of ethics before, Shira

Here we are measuring a present quantity - the deleterious effects of the blockade on the 1.5 million people of Gaza - against a totally unknown quantity - Hamas' ability to get weapons through if the blockade were eased.

Just from that alone, an ethical solution is to simply accept the unknown potential risk of the latter in order to address the known problems of the former. Known quantities simply carry far more weight than unknown ones. If you see someone get hit by a car, you can't really just do nothing because you're paranoid that they might be faking you out to mug you. It is an ethical obligation to help someone in need, if it is within your power to do so. And if it is your own action that creates the situation that they need help from, well...

If we try to imagine some numbers to plug into the Hamas side of this, we still end up with the same conclusion; the blockade has made no evident impact on Hamas' access to its favored weapons, since these are simply pipe bombs with fins launched off rebar tripods and are thus not reliant on outside resources.

We can also surmise that it is well within Israel's ability to distinguish between a weapons shipment, and a shipment of beef; pretty much every nation in the world conducts border inspections, no reason to demand Israel do differently (the difference between the end of the blockade, and open orders, remember?)

Further the blockade has done nothing to weaken Hamas' rule of Gaza. I've frequently pointed out how it in fact does the opposite. Israel's policy towards Gaza plays right in tune with Hamas' propaganda about Israel. That certainly lowers any incentive for the people of Gaza to depose Hamas. Even if such incentive were strong, the blockade weakens those peoples' ability to do just that, if they so choose.

Next we figure the plain reality of criminals and their ability to skirt prohibitions what with being, you know, criminals. If Hamas wants to get some nasty missiles into Gaza, the blockade isn't going to stop them. Nor is such a blockade necessary to deal with the shipment or storage - Israel's shown it's not at all shy about targeting such depots, after all, even in nations it has no control over.

Bottom line is that the blockade is a bad policy that isn't very good at what it's supposed to do. it causes undue misery to the people who are supposedly not the targets of it, and has little impact on the people who are. It does not enhance Israel's security, nor does it degrade militants' offensive capability. All it does is grind down the multitudes of Gazans who have no reason to be so targeted. Either the blockade is a mistake, in which case it needs to be removed... or it's intentionally targeting innocent people in gaza, in which case - again - it needs to be removed.

[pelsar]

12. and historically blind as well....intentional or do you simply not know?

Last edited Thu Nov 14, 2013, 06:57 AM - Edit history (1)

We can also surmise that it is well within Israel's ability to distinguish between a weapons shipment, and a shipment of beef; pretty much every nation in the world conducts border inspections, no reason to demand Israel do differently (the difference between the end of the blockade, and open orders, remember?)

i assume you know little of the initial agreements between egypt/israel/EU/Palestenians then. It was all about imports with inspections, that failed miserably. The Egyptians let the gazans import what ever they wanted via the tunnels, the EU inspectors were nothing more than puppets. The attacks on the israeli border import stations continued......in short, your plan, which in fact was put into place, failed.

again: you either don't know, or prefer to be blind:

since these are simply pipe bombs with fins launched off rebar tripods and are thus not reliant on outside resources.

The imports via the tunnels (until they were shut down) included military grade missiles, anti tank missiles, mortars etc...all military grade. and the propellent for the kassams was always imported.

_______________________________

Either the blockade is a mistake, in which case it needs to be removed... or it's intentionally targeting innocent people in gaza, in which case - again - it needs to be removed.

it actually targeting the imports which does infact reduce the quantities that hamas has, which means that have less to shoot at us with, which brings us to the obvious conclusion that israelis getting shot at, etc are infact never a factor in your analysis.

[Scootaloo]

24. So that's one vote in favor of mass reprisal against innocents from the Zionism camp

Any others?

[pelsar]

30. just correcting an ignorant post

you put forth an idea, and i just reminded those who don't know (including yourself) that infact it was tried...and failed.

[delrem]

32. I believe this guy speaks as a 100% veteran of the IDF.

He claims that his first-hand IDF experience of the troubles in the occupied territories of Judea and Samaria give his opinions trump value, when speaking/debating with others about I/P issues -- esp. in the case of "what is good for the Palestinians".

I tell you truly, I would not want to be a Palestinian prisoner subject to his command.

[delrem]

31. you revealed it, Scootaloo.

After this oberliner disappears.
What follows is the hasbara sockpuppet parade:
King_David
shira
pelsar

These being the sockpuppets of the moment.

[King_David]

34. Sockpuppets ?

Last edited Fri Nov 15, 2013, 11:58 AM - Edit history (1)

Put up or shut up ..

WTF ?

( you haven't had enough posts hidden that you make baseless accusations against anyone who disagrees with your marginal radical views ?)

[delrem]

36. When it acts as a sockpuppet, I say it.

I can see that you want to "alert" me to death on DU.
But then that's the same thing that every hasbara sockpuppet wants.

If someone doesn't want to be nailed as being a hasbara sockpuppet, they have to first break free from hasbara.
Your posts, usually snide asides as in this case where you entered like a true sockpuppet:
"If terrorism and murder increases as a result if opening the border
Then I am against opening the border and tearing down the defense wall."

No mention of the continuous building of "the defense wall", including the territorial grab that accompanies it.
*Of course* hasbara wouldn't mention that. *Of course* hasbara's job is to portray Israel as an innocent victim, and not just a regular victim but the ultimate innocent victim.
But Israel isn't acting as a victim. Israel is continuing to build "settlements" in Judea and Samaria, and Israel is continuing a program to isolate in squalor e.g. the Bedouin, the true people of the land.

[King_David]

37. Actually D,

The issues are far more complex than debate in this little forum .

Do you understand this?

[pelsar]

38. and what does that make u?

outside of the emotional bursts, inability to care on a conversation (outside of the acceptable talking points, or info that you've been given) and eventually, the inevitable emotional non sensical, not relevant emotional rant.....

shall i mention your bigoted views? (zionism = racism) inability to use a real dictionary?

as well as the classic colonialist attitude: Case in point:

Bedouin, the true people of the land

i take it you have no idea when they arrived, and that the Palestenians and Druze do not regard the Bedoiun as the "true people of the land" so you, in your ultimate colonial wisdom have chosen the Bedoiun as the true "people" and the Palestenians, Arabs, Druze and Jews are all just liars or something.....tsk tsk tsk, I'm sure the Palestenians don't really appreciate you attitude towards their history. (one day if you should even meet one, you might try asking them)

hey i have an idea (this is jus to tease you into one of your reactions that i never understand)
why don't you explain how you have chosen the Bedoiun over the muslim arabs or jews or druze as the "true people of the land" I'm sure you have some historical knowledge, written by a white colonialist, that backs up such a claim.

[pelsar]

11. are you?

Last edited Thu Nov 14, 2013, 02:52 AM - Edit history (1)

every inch of that not-Rafah border is controlled by Israel
the gaza/egyptian border is 12km wide.....its relativly flat.

there is an international egyptian sea port about 20 minutes drive from Rafah. That includes paved roads.

that means that anything gaza has to import, could easily be brought in through the southern border. There are no physical limitations to that..

which infact would make the israeli blockade inconsequential

_________________________
assuming your not stupid, we'll go with "geographically challenged" or the more precise: "blinded by ideology"

[Violet_Crumble]

13. There's two southern crossings. One is controlled by Israel...

The Kerem Shalom crossing's controlled by Israel. I'm not sure of the details of that one, but my guess is it's open during limited hours and only limited amounts of specific things are allowed through. As for Rafah, it's been closed indefinitely since July. So how does this 'no physical limitations' thing work when both southern crossings are either closed totally or have restrictions on what comes through and when?

[pelsar]

14. its a political decision nothing more than that.

this was the sentence that i'm referring to:
What this means is that Egypt's closing of Rafah would be inconsequential


if Egypt decided to be the main importer of goods to gaza....how long would it take to enlarge the area for truck parking on the egyptian side?

expand the roads to handle additional traffic?

the israeli bockade would then be inconsequential
___________

pure politics.....

[delrem]

15. Absolutely. The Egyptian military requires $billions$ of US assistance. quid pro quo.

And, well, as Nancy Pelosi has explained, there is *zero* difference between the Reps and the Dems w.r.t. matters of Israel.
Which kinda deflates King_David's claim to "Democratic Party Purity" with respect I/P.

(edited to edit out misspelling of Ms Pelosi's name.)

[Violet_Crumble]

16. I was just having a chuckle about the Democratic Party Purity thing...

Given what John Kerry's said recently, the whole 'The Democratic Party Agrees With Me On Israel!' line must be getting a bit hard to pull out at the moment

[delrem]

18. Yes

[Israeli]

20. oh yeah ...

I've been a chuckling about that ever since I saw the interview.

BTW you should bookmark this for future referance :

http://www.state.gov/secretary/remarks/2013/11/217314.htm

You never know when you might need it

[King_David]

21. Yes like a high school debating society

Bookmark it because you may score points debating among the 11 people reading and participating in this forum .

OK thanks I'll bookmark it

[oberliner]

22. Are we up to 11 now?

That's pretty exciting!

[shira]

23. Why bookmark it? What might you need it for in the future? n/t

[delrem]

27. I'm reading it.

I don't like what Kerry is saying. His statements are full of outright contradictions, but are presented so as to appear "politically correct", benevolent yet dispassionate w.r.t. "sides" -- he's been well-trained to be a US SoS seamlessly following HRC, who seamlessly followed Condi.

[pelsar]

17. blinded by ideology

The US has been threatening and has already cut down the assistance, and the border remains shut down

the saudis and kuwaitis are willing to replace the US funds
the Russians are now moving in to replace the US influence which in the middle east has dropped
___

conclusion: The tunnel closure is an egpytian foreign policy based on their own interests and nothing to do with the US.

[delrem]

19. Absolutely! What is cool is that the US can funnel US$billions$ to the Egyptian military,

a military which just recently mounted a coup against a democratically elected regime,
while pretending that the US is just a bystander w.r.t. the situation.

[Scootaloo]

25. More like making a concise point

You're aware, of course that Gaza has four borders, three by land, one by sea.

How many of these borders does Palestine control? Zero.

How many does Egypt control? One, with an asterisk - it shares control with Israel, as VC points out

How many does Israel control? Four, with the same asterisk

Whose idea is the blockade? It's not Egypt's. It's certainly not Palestine's. Who, oh who?

Pelsar, I know you want so badly to pin the suffering in Gaza on Egypt. You're desperate for it. But that's just not the way it is.

[pelsar]

29. try answering this (this will require using your imagination on your part

Last edited Fri Nov 15, 2013, 04:48 AM - Edit history (3)

your original claim:
What this means is that Egypt's closing of Rafah would be inconsequential,


are you claiming that even if Egypt opens its 12km border to gaza, for all imports, israels blockade will still be consequential?


vcs points are about 5 years out of date:
closed totally or have restrictions on what comes through and when?

do i really have to write this? ignorence or politically inconvenient, you tell me:
the agreements were with the PA with EU observers, which included videos from Rafah to israel (that had a few minutes delay)....none of which exist today. Furthermore Egypt for the last 5 years at least has been opening and closing at will depending upon how they feel at any given moment.

obviously you didn't know this, so now considered yourself educated

How many does Egypt control? One, with an asterisk - it shares control with Israel
and your claiming that egypts been opening and closing it only with Israels permission, that Egypt first asks Israel? is that what your claiming...or that the IDF is on the border with Egypt as well?

(this should be an fun response.....That israel controls Egyptian foreign policy, no matter that its a secular dictatorship via Mubarak, a Muslim Brotherhood one, or a military dictatorship....
___

Now some advice:
Now that I'm done making fun of your "Israel still controls the Egyptian/Gaza border". (that only the ignorant or ideologically bent can believe). Your point as i understand it is more of a moral, ethical point of view. Perhaps stick to that, as you can retain the real facts, and push a point that at least has something to it.


and delrem gets credit for being clear about it (see below)
28. Should be the Gaza Ark against Egyptian/Israeli blockade nt

and finally: israel was blockaded for years (3/4)...apparently all a country needs is one opening for importing and exporting.

[King_David]

2. Should be the Gaza Ark against Egyptian blockade nt

[delrem]

28. Should be the Gaza Ark against Egyptian/Israeli blockade nt

[aptemr]

26. Image

Do you have the latest image of the Gaza ark?

[delrem]

33. Since there's a total Egypt/Israel blockade of Gaza, such an "ark" is unlikely.

It seems to me that the idea is to keep squeezing, even after the juice is out to keep squeezing to get a bit of pulp.

I apologize for the vividness of the simile, but how else can I think of the hell that's been brought on Gaza?

[oberliner]

35. There are photos on their website

www.gazaark.org/