Terror Expert: Sexual Abuse, Exploitation Behind “Wave of Female and Children” Suicide Bombers

[shira]

Scholars have struggled for quite literally decades to unpack the development and psychology of suicide terrorism. The indoctrination process involves not just propaganda but institutions which channel and ground particular kinds of ideological moves. A series of recent studies by Israeli Lt. Col. Anat Berko has sought to analyze, more precisely, how potential bombers are manipulated into overcoming basic instincts for self-preservation.

Recently speaking before a crowd at Binghamton University in upstate New York, Berko, who has spent 20 years studying terrorists, provided a profile of how women and children are specifically targeted:

The focus of her talk was the role of women and adolescents in Islamic terror attacks and the mental abuse that leads many of these people to try and take their own lives. “Today we see a wave of female and children bombers. There have been over 50 female suicide bombers in just Iraq,” she said.

She described how many female terrorists had been sexually assaulted as young women or children. “Many times these girls are sexually abused,” she said. “And if they commit a ‘mistake’ or are involved with a man they are ruined. But for the man it is always okay.”

Palestinian suicide bomber Reem al-Reyashi, who in 2004 killed herself and four Israelis, has been cited as an example of the dynamic described by Berko. Reyashi, a mother of two, was coerced into killing herself after she was caught having an affair. Her husband, a Hamas operative, pushed her to carry out a suicide mission to ‘restore her family’s honor’. Hamas has subsequently broadcast celebratory videos of her terror attack, with one program hosted by her son and daughter.

more @ http://www.thetower.org/expert-terror-exploit-suicide-terrorism/

[dipsydoodle]

1. Doesn't seem to account

for those who have lost husbands and fathers.

[Scootaloo]

2. Apparently writing for Breitbart and taking a paycheck from CAMERA makes one a terrorism expert

But then, has anyone ever run across a "terrorism expert" in any format, coming from any angle, who didn't sound like they were just making it up as they go along?

[delrem]

4. +1

the word "terrorism" opens the rabbit hole.
A path that soon looks only like a road to hell.

I notice, when discussing things with those who take that road, that the "alert" button is increasingly being used, and that it often works even when the censored voice is justified. This increased frequency is no doubt product of the new DU rules.

For example, when I recently began a response with "Fuck off. Attacks on children are a crime, period." my post was censored, even though my content: "Nobody contributing to DU I/P, except for maybe a paid troll, would suggest otherwise.", was true.

So I've got to find a way to express my rejection of a meme with an expletive-free vocabulary.
To be sure, I can do that, but what if this expletive-free vocabulary doesn't capture the rich essence of "Fuck off.", required by those circumstances.

Sorry, I'm going all "meta".

[oberliner]

7. You see things that are not there

As long as we are going meta.

You took this remark: "To be fair, she was probably a Zionist. And a settler to boot. Subhuman in the eyes of some folks probably" and twisted it to mean something that exists only in your head.

The reality is that the people who committed this crime view this girl as a Zionist settler who is less than human. This was emphasized by the fact that on the Hamas website she was called a "settler" even though she is a nine-year old girl.

There is nothing stated or implied about anyone on DU.

[delrem]

34. "some folks probably" isn't the same as "the people who committed this crime".

I'm not in the business of defending people who attack children, and neither are you. That's why I like your description "the people who committed this crime" and don't like the ambiguity of "some folks probably".

Many people oppose the Zionist project and the reality of "settlements", but that has nothing to do with attacks on children, children of settlers, but only the perps used this opposition to justify attacks on children. For example I oppose the Zionist project, the reality of "settlements", and the ethnic cleansing that is part and parcel of it.

IMO the matter should be adjudicated by the ICC.

[oberliner]

51. "Some folks" would be Hamas and their supporters

Last edited Sun Oct 13, 2013, 08:50 AM - Edit history (1)

Not just the people who committed the crime but also those who would report about it on their website saying that the girl killed was a settler or a Zionist as at least one Hamas source did.

[delrem]

67. Sure, it's a non-description chosen for its vagueness.

Now, if we all wrote like that all the time, then every time an Israeli or Palestinian gets hurt it gives a platform for ..... well, for posts like any one of shira's, for example.

[oberliner]

86. You win

White flag. Surrender.

[Scootaloo]

43. Sorta like people who value Arab lives to Jewish lives at a 53:1 ratio, Oberliner? n/t

[oberliner]

52. I don't know what that means

Are you referencing something in particular?

[King_David]

11. You always seem to "fight" battles from

Previous threads in other non relevant threads .. That's what the PM is for.

It don't help griping here about a post that got hidden, that you feel is unjust ,here.
The jury more than likely ain't gonna read it here in IP.

[delrem]

33. My regrets, Dave,

but I can't find it in me to order my postings according as a self-appointed net-nanny with the most horrendous agenda: to promote and defend the continuing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in the occupied territories.

[King_David]

38. Can't answer at the moment I'm really busy reading

Shaktimaan tearing your "arguments "apart on another thread,
They very good reads...you know he did all that on a cell phone?

[delrem]

40. I do believe that Shaktimaan, shira, pelsar, mosby, and you, Dave, are enjoying yourselves.

Kinda like Ted Cruz and hangers on are laughing up their sleeves.

[Scootaloo]

42. You shouldn't talk about ted Cruz like that. he has feelings, you know

Granted, they're feelings on the level of a largemouth bass (fitting, for a bigmouthed ass) but still. have a heart.

[delrem]

44. I sometimes like cooking with bottom-feeders.

They're like tofu, versatile just because they're nutritious and flavorless.

[Scootaloo]

46. Please, don't talk to me about tofu

I move about seven tons of that stuff a week. These are my days off. Please... just... no more. No more

[bemildred]

59. "Bean turd". My wife gets annoyed when I call it that.

Seems to be acquired taste.

[azurnoir]

70. I wonder though could the stuff be used as a modeling compound ?

sort of like FIMO or Sculpey, you could add colorants and then bake it without the risk of toxic fumes lik you get with the other 2

[bemildred]

72. Play-Dough, it's perfect for Play-Dough.

A little salt, a bit of food coloring, and off you go. Properly baked you get long-lasting decorations and works of art.

[King_David]

62. Wasn't much enjoyment seeing your "argument" shredded apart .

An we all Democratic Party members or supporters here so I don't get th stuff about that Canadian dude Cruz....

[King_David]

64. "to promote and defend the continuing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians "

"but I can't find it in me to order my postings according as a self-appointed net-nanny with the most horrendous agenda: to promote and defend the continuing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in the occupied territories. "

WTF are you talking about....name names please...

What an unbelievably narrow absurd hateful accusation if you talking about DU members your out of line Mr. And it is a provocative false hateful accusation if your talking about me or any other DU member. ( if not please explain what you mean )


As Shaktimaan said about you and your absurd accusations in a previous thread ..

"Shaktimaan
49. Well, that's not what I said.
I said that you clearly seem to have no idea what the term "blood libel" actually means. Because shira's post didn't contain any.

You do know that words have specific meanings right? Racism, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, etc... these are all words you seem to enjoy yet gravely misunderstand.
"

[delrem]

66. Here. Scroll through the threads.

Last edited Sun Oct 13, 2013, 03:01 PM - Edit history (1)

eta:URL
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=36146

Read how a shitload of hasbarists agree with Benny Morris w.r.t. the positive effects (for the future Jewish state) of ethnic cleansing.
Read how they all deny what they are saying. heh. That's your technique, Dave, so I'm sure you'll fit right in there.

[King_David]

71. Your posts can not be taken seriously

They getting more emotional and bizzarrio .

Ad shaktimaan proved you got a far ways to go before you get a grasp of the IP topic.

Meantime maybe it's best do a whole lot more reading on Jews Muslims Zionism Israel and Palestine before posting substance In our group ... Most of the rest of is are up to speed .

[delrem]

75. I know that the posting of something substantial goes against the rules of hasbara, Dave.

But I'm not a hasbarist like you, Shaktimaan, mosby, pelsar, shira, oberliner, et al, so I'm not bound by those rules. If you don't want me to respond with substance, don't ask me dumb-ass questions whose nobrainer responses break hasbara taboos.

[King_David]

76. Nope ,

For some reason you can not tolerate a segment of posters here on DU and accuse us liberal Democratic Jewish Supporters of "to promote and defend the continuing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians &quot your hateful words)

Your post is absurd ,hateful, ridiculous and not in any segment of the USA would be remotely acceptable.

Myself,Shaktimaan, mosby, pelsar, shira, oberliner, et al all have one thing in common.


I doubt anyone on this board will stand up and defend that shit you said...you know why? It is hateful and indefensible...

[delrem]

77. But you couldn't bear to scroll through the threads re. Benny Morris.

Nor could you bear to read through the basic laws and supreme court decisions that I sent you just a day or two ago, after another of your empty, vapid, demands.

You must necessarily avoid it. Just as you must necessarily avoid discussion of Israeli law, which provides a platform and a lever not just allowing ethnic cleansing to happen but necessitating it. As Benny Morris said, he wished Ben Gurion hadn't wimped out and stopped the cleansing before it was complete, and Shaktimaan agreed with that 100%, several times, only trying to spin it that Morris didn't say what he in fact said, in the context in which he said it. This is Morris who doesn't feel the least twinge of conscience, sympathy, empathy, for the ethnically cleansed population. Because such absolute pogroms are necessary, he says, for Israel to exist.

Anyway, I'm putting the whole of hasbara back on ignore - I've learned enough about the systemic in your face *lying* of hasbarists.

[King_David]

78. Since I have no clue what you wrote or replied to, I will repeat my post,

For some reason you can not tolerate a segment of posters here on DU and accuse us liberal Democratic Jewish Supporters of "to promote and defend the continuing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians &quot your hateful words)

Your post is absurd ,hateful, ridiculous and not in any segment of the USA would be remotely acceptable.

Myself,Shaktimaan, mosby, pelsar, shira, oberliner, et al all have one thing in common.


I doubt anyone on this board will stand up and defend that shit you said...you know why? It is hateful and indefensible...

[delrem]

79. Here. Scroll through the threads.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=36146

Read how a shitload of hasbarists agree with Benny Morris w.r.t. the positive effects (for the future Jewish state) of ethnic cleansing.
Read how they all deny what they are saying. heh. That's your technique, Dave, so I'm sure you'll fit right in there.

Not me that's party to the hatred behind Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing. That's on hasbara's account.

byeeee

[shira]

6. The Palestine of Wafa al-Biss

http://blogs.jpost.com/content/palestine-wafa-al-biss

When the American journalist Judith Miller interviewed al-Biss in prison some two years after her failed terror attack, Miller also wondered: “Who was the real Wafa al-Biss: the proud patriotic bomber who boasted of her desire to slaughter Jews, even babies, at the hospital that had saved her life? Or the tearful victim of a sophisticated martyrdom recruiting organization who had failed to kill herself, if not others, only because of a defective detonator?”

Miller noted that al-Biss was born “into wretched poverty in Jabalya refugee camp in Gaza, one of 12 children.” During the interview, al-Biss described her father as a “primitive” man who rarely allowed his daughter to go out except to school or the mosque. Al-Biss also claimed that her father and her brothers used to beat her and that she was so desperate that she wanted to kill herself already years before her disfiguring accident.

Al-Biss also gave a chilling account of the cynical tactics used by her terrorist mentor, who reminded her that due to the disfigurement caused by her accident, nobody would ever marry her and that she therefore had no future. Indeed, her fiancée had already broken off their engagement, and according to the information al-Biss revealed when she was interrogated by Israeli security forces, even her parents eventually encouraged her “martyrdom”. A “farewell” video clip was taped in her home with the consent of her parents, and when it was time to put on her explosive-laden garments that weighed 10 kg (22 lbs), her own mother helped her dress and fixed a broken zipper.

Some six years after her failed suicide bombing attempt, al-Biss is now among the more than 1000 Palestinian convicts who were exchanged for kidnapped soldier Gilad Shalit. She has returned to the home of the parents who had hoped her daughter would “martyr” herself by detonating her explosives among the patients and staff of the Israeli hospital where she was being treated.

Upon her return home, she was visited by a large group of children, and according to press reports she told them: “I hope you will walk the same path we took and God willing, we will see some of you as martyrs.”

The children responded with cheers and, waving Palestinian flags, they chanted: “We will give souls and blood to redeem the prisoners. We will give souls and blood for you, Palestine.”

This is the Palestine of Wafa al-Biss: a death cult where a young desperate woman who was told that her life would only have meaning if she ended it with a terrorist suicide bombing knows full well what to say when a group of children is sent to visit her – and the visiting children know already how to respond to the message that seeking bloody and violent “martyrdom” is one of the noblest goals they could chose to pursue.

Wafa al-Biss is alive because she was saved by Israeli medical treatment, and she is a Palestinian heroine and role model because she was willing to end her young life by going back to where she had been saved in order to kill anyone who happened to be there.

The Palestine of Wafa al-Biss may not be eagerly embraced by all Palestinians, but it is officially endorsed by all Palestinian factions and its death cult is everywhere: in the omni-present posters that glorify successful “martyrs” who killed themselves by killing Jews, in the public squares, facilities and streets named after “martyrs” and terrorists, in the “ethos” of Palestinian officials who pride themselves in the regular payments given to terrorists and their families, and in the official media that provide regular programs glorifying terrorism.

Now as I understand it, to even mention the above is racist and rightwing. It's better to believe she was desperate to do "something" against the evil occupation and that she and her friends and family are really no different than us westerners who would do the same things under the same circumstances.

Am I warm?

I mean, that is what you used to believe back in the day when these terror operations against Jewish women and children were understandable in your view....right?

[Scootaloo]

12. And to take the case and extend it over all instances is questionable, in my opinion

There's a feeling of the "researcher" having the answer they want, and only looking at evidence that supports that answer.

If you want to call yourself racist, I won't stop you. But do note, when I call you a racist, it's after you say racist shit - you know, "Arabs are child-sacrificing death cultists," that sort of thing that your fellow liberal Zionists adore so much. Pointing out that a woman suffered trauma and pressure to become a suicide bomber isn't racist. But to assume that every such instance is due to sexual abuse? well, that might be. I couldn't say, as I only have part of the information that would be needed to make a call on it.

[shira]

17. The terror expert isn't extending it over all instances, is she?

Last edited Sat Oct 12, 2013, 07:10 PM - Edit history (2)

And no one here says Arabs are child-sacrificing death cultists, so next time you call someone out for being a racist...do try getting it right.

But now that you mention it, what do you call the following from Hamas TV?

Child-sacrificing death cult TV is a bit too much & not entirely PC, so what is it? How do we explain this phenomena throughout Palestinian society? There are literally dozens of videos like this, demonstrating how mainstream it is.

Enlighten us.

[Scootaloo]

24. "Hamas TV" = "Throughout Palestinian Society"?

Shira, I'm curious. Do you ever think before hammering your hands across the keyboard? I especially like your argument, "Nobody here says it's a death cult; but it's a death cult."

If we can use an extremist example to legitimately characterize the entire society, as you are doing here... Then surely there is no problem with characterizing all Jews by the examples set by Neturei Karta, Orthodox 'morality patrols,' Noar HaGva'ot, or the Jewish Defense League? I don't think that's legitimate myself, but hey, if that's the way you want to go, then we can certainly explore that avenue.

And yes, the claim made is that sexual abuse is the driving force behind female and child suicide bombers. It's right up there in the title.

[shira]

25. Hamas and Fatah TV. It's mainstream....deal with it.

You said I made racist statements about Arabs being child-sacrificing death cultists. It's one thing to accuse Palestinian leadership (Hamas and Fatah) of that; quite another to claim Arabs in general do that. You've made these wild accusations about me before.

Hamas and Fatah TV examples aren't some one-offs; nor are they rare or extreme views. They're mainstream. You brought up Neturei Karta and the Kahanists. Fine. When they become dork-tators of Israel and call all the shots, you'll have a valid comparison going for yourself. Until then, not so much...

And again you're wrong - there is no claim from the expert that sexual abuse is THE driving force behind female and child suicide bombers. She said that MANY women were abused, not all.

You're obviously tired. Get some sleep.

[Shaktimaan]

28. But aren't you the one...

Who frequently posts your belief that the terms liberal and Zionist are mutually exclusive?

You seriously consider the "martyr culture" thing an extremist exaggeration of Palestinian culture but are OK with the idea that NO supporters of Israel can also be liberal minded?

BTW- Yeah, "death cult" is absurd, sure. But do you deny the underlying concept? That to some extent, a glamorization of death and martyrdom exists in Palestinian society?

[Shaktimaan]

9. Well

That and years of research along with a phd on the subject.

Israeli scholar Dr. Anat Berko has been studying female suicide bombers for years. A former lieutenant colonel in the IDF, she holds a PhD in criminology from Bar-Ilan University and is a research fellow at the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism in Herzliya. Her family is of Iraqi origin and she not only speaks fluent Arabic but is intimately acquainted with the Arab and Muslim outlook on life. Her new book, Isha Ptzatza (“The Smarter Bomb: Women and Children as Suicide Bombers”) will be published next week in Hebrew by Yedioth Books. She based it on hours of interviews with would-be suicide bombers held in Israeli prisons as well as on a close biographical analysis of Palestinian women who succeeded in their objective of killing as many enemy civilians as possible.

What about her seems fishy to you?

[Scootaloo]

13. It carries a vibe of bad science

As I mentioned before, I have little respect for "terrorism experts," since they are invariably under the employ and oversight of organizations or governments that want a very particular, very political outcome from the "research" being done.

As I tell Shira above, there's a notion here that she had a predetermined goal, and simply ignored evidence that doesn't fit it. I haven't read the book, so I'm not going to be like, "awww, it's all fake and she's a hack," but after two decades of US "terrorism experts" being fucking wrong about everything - but always in a way that made the administration at the time look good and the terrorists look like brainless rabid apes? I can't assume that this woman is somehow elevated above those kooks.

[Shaktimaan]

31. My point...

She's hardly without respectable credentials as you so quickly assumed though. She has a fucking phd.

Seriously dude, to just write off someone's work that they used to obtain a doctorate and write a book with, with no cause beyond a gut reaction is really, really obnoxious.

I have no idea how credible her research is. But I'm not going to assume it's probably shit just because I don't like her field of study.

Incidentally, I don't know about so-called experts in the US that you've seen. Generally though, Israel tends to only use this stuff when it's real and applicable. Yes men aren't rewarded. There's a reason el al never had a terrorist get past their screening.

[Scootaloo]

41. Your point, refuted through comedy:

Generally though, Israel tends to only use this stuff when it's real and applicable.

"Generally tends" seems to leave a pretty wide opening for bullshit, methinks.

There's a reason el al never had a terrorist get past their screening

Seems plenty of Jewish terrorists keep coming to Israel through el al. Liberal Zionist folk hero Baruch Goldstein didn't fucking walk there, after all.

[Shaktimaan]

47. Where's the refutation?

Because there was once a Jew who committed mass murder that means...?

I actually find it really disturbing that you find Baruch Goldstein a humerous topic. It's also not a refutation of anything to mention his name. It's just obnoxious and upsetting.

And SERIOUSLY, what about this topic makes you so insistently reject the idea that it can ever be a legitimate field of study?

Is it because the expert is Jewish or because she's Israeli? What happened to you?

[Scootaloo]

53. ...Who came in through the absolutely terrorist-proof security of el al...?

See, that's where the humor lies. I'm not laughing at Baruch Goldstein, I'm laughing at you. Your claim that Israel is special, above all others. its security is flawless, its methodology unquestionable, its "experts" above politics, its applications always fair and always right, yadda yadda yadda.

Why are you such a sychophant, Shaktimaan?

And SERIOUSLY, what about this topic makes you so insistently reject the idea that it can ever be a legitimate field of study?

What part of "I have seen it exploited far too often for nonfactual political maneuvering" was hard for you to understand, Shaktimaan? It doesn't seem like an especially difficult concept.

Do you have any idea how many accredited "experts on terrorism" have written books on the subject? How many of those disagree, even with their authors' previous works? And how very often these works cleave tightly to the author's own political biases and beliefs?

Here's Salon's take on the subject. And please, even though the article spends its time on the US, don't give me more preaching about the sinlessness of Israel. It doesn't convince of of anything except the notion that you're rather pathetic.

I think a better question is why do you feel that her work must be set above doubt and question.

Is it because the expert is Jewish or because she's Israeli?

Good ol' Shaktimaan. Can't think very well, so when he gets stumped, just starts up with the old mewling about someone being an antisemite. 'Cause boy doesn't that work so well after all this time?

No, my lumpy protein-based friend; it's because I'm skeptical of the field as a whole. This book is written off anecdotes by the author, taken from her own experience, notes, and memory. Anecdotes being what they are, these assertions cannot be confirmed - even if we had access to the subjects of said anecdotes (we don't.) And having gone through many a book about science, about politics, and plenty of bad examples of both (and worse examples of trying to combine the two) I can tell you that this just isn't a recipe for reliable information.

It might be an interesting read. But if it has anything more than self-congratulatiory stroking of the audience's confirmation baises, I would be exceedingly surprised. it would truly be a rarity in the field, if such were the case - and that's still without wondering at its veracity. These shit books are comfort food for people who want to read about good guys and bad guys and how hte good guys are really really great and the bad guys are really really awful.

What happened to you?

I came to the realization that explaining reality to people who live in a delusion is an unproductive use of my time, so now I amuse myself by mocking them and prodding them with pointy sticks.

[Shaktimaan]

63. So you are saying that

Goldstein was always a terrorist, even 10+ years before he committed any acts of terrorism?

That's certainly a unique view of what makes one a terrorist. Tell me, was he a terrorist even as a toddler? Someone who should have been detected by then?

Now then, are only Jews ever inherent terrorists? Or do you think Arabs who commit violence were "always terrorists too."

As for the rest, my last long term girlfriend got her phd in psychology from Columbia. Her research and dissertation was on bereavement, which I remember her working on using those same methods like interviewing and note taking. Skills which are considered pretty much the "industry-standard" regarding data collection.

I'm sure you've read many a book on science. And many on politics. But you seem to have missed the ones that have anything to do with the social sciences or you wouldn't be making such embarrassing statements.

The author has a doctorate. You know nothing about her field nor have you read her book. By your own admission the books on this subject that you have read were for half-wits. Why is it so hard for you to accept that you simply don't have the knowledge required to critique the book, her process or the entire field of criminology?

Because it is the same impetus that allows you to castigate all Zionism as racism without knowing anything at all about the subject.

More sadly... It is also the impetus that drives you to confidently reject modern anti-semitism and anti-Zionism as being nothing more serious than the occasional oped that speaks about us in less than glowing terms.

By all means, call me lumpy protein. Tell me I'm not smart. And when you get a chance look up the term "reaction formation." That's some free psychology for you. Enjoy it.

[Shaktimaan]

50. This post, otoh, is actually pretty funny.

So you haven't read anything by this person but you're going to reject her findings based on the "vibe" that she has a predetermined goal and ignored all contrary evidence, huh?

Good thing you haven't read the book, so you're not going to be like, "awww, it's all fake and she's a hack,"

Seriously, that's awesome. Read that first paragraph again. I want to make sure you got it.

[madrchsod]

128. +2

there`s a long history of woman who did what they had to do to for their beliefs. she claims that arab women are not capable of free will or the ability to kill those who they perceive will harm them.

[delrem]

3. just more blood libel from shira. ho hum.

[shira]

5. Why blood libel? What's not true?

Is this photo blood libel?



Why is it so hard for you to grasp what's in the OP?

It doesn't portray your Palestinian "victims" quite like Canadian First Nations and Australia's Aborigines, does it? Your mind cannot (or will not) conceive of anything other than Zionists = opressors and Palestinians = helpless victims.....right?

[azurnoir]

15. and exactly what 'suicide mission' was this toddler sent on?

Can you tell us? or did you just wish to post the picture as a reminder of how supposedly savage the Palestinian people really are or something ?

[shira]

16. That pic is an example of child exploitation. I thought peeps like yourself...

...cared for reals about the human rights of Palestinians like that exploited toddler.

That's what you tell us, you know. It's all about human rights...

[azurnoir]

18. so IOW you have nothing but a picture no example just a picture of a kid in military garb

see I can post pictures too







http://www.wondercostumes.com/navy-seal-kids-costume-ptnskca.html

http://www.wondercostumes.com/Army_costumes-qsarmy.html

[shira]

19. You see nothing wrong with that pic of a suicide toddler, do you?

And now you're trying to compare Israelis with Hamas? So tell me, is the NRA also preparing kids to murder innocents when they hold these youth shooting camps? Is that what you think the Israelis are doing with their children? Teaching them how to target defenseless women and children?



Now if you're looking for actual evidence of Palestinian child abuse and exploitation, here's one video of many...

#t=11

[azurnoir]

20. much like the OP I see at best spurrious claims made about Palestinian kids

with nothing to back them up, the label "suicide toddler" is simply made up to suit a political end

and BTW do suicide bombers usually wear military fatigues?

[shira]

21. Of course, what you won't see you cannot condemn. How about this video?

See anything appalling about it? Child exploitation and abuse?

Yes or No?

[azurnoir]

22. I entertain your rantings for one reason

Last edited Sat Oct 12, 2013, 08:17 PM - Edit history (1)

who here is really promoting hate? who here dismisses the deaths of Palestinian children at Israeli hands as expected collateral, who here really holds hate in their hearts?

on this particular video, were children of the Holocaust never shown reenactments of that? Were children of slain Israeli's never shown reenactments of those incidents either? These are examples of traumatic experiences being relived by survivors

what is sad is that for these families the desperation has come this as was pointed out below considering the rates of sexual abuse of women and children vs the rates of women and child suicide bombers it beggars belief that this is a causative action, but once again you've shown us a second hand fantasy about lascivious Palestinian men who apparently live to abuse women and children sexually, it's so reminiscent of things said about Black men in this country

[shira]

26. I'm showing examples of how the OP nailed it...

Meanwhile, you're making excuses for Hamas, pretending they're not inciting children to kill Jews by blowing themselves up, becoming martyrs, etc. Here's yet another video that's apparently an "understandable" reaction to occupation in your view...

&feature=player_embedded#at=11



Meanwhile, I'm the hater for pointing this out.



In my 5-6 years here, I have to say this might be the lowest level to which you've sunk. And that's really saying something...

who here is really promoting hate? who here dismisses the deaths of Palestinian children at Israeli hands as expected collateral, who here really holds hate in their hearts?

I'd say that anyone looking at these videos who is not thoroughly disgusted at the hate-filled brainwashing, incitement, child abuse, and glorification of murder/suicide is well beyond the definition of a hater.

on this particular video, were children of the Holocaust never shown reenactments of that? Were children of slain Israeli's never shown reenactments of those incidents either? These are examples of traumatic experiences being relived by survivors

What the hell are you comparing here? Hamas is showing videos glorifying suicide terror missions that deliberately kill innocents. They're telling little children that's what they should aspire towards. And you're comparing that shit to showing historical footage of the Holocaust? WTF is wrong with you?

[azurnoir]

37. what I see is an OP that engaiges the lurid fantasy of hypersexulized Arab (Palestinian) males

abuse of women and children being at fault for suicide bombings and then not being able to provide any credible evidence you post video after video from a Rightwing anti-Palestinian group founded by Itamar Marcus not of suicide bombers but Palestinian children supposedly being abused although apparently that abuse does not include being killed or arested as young as 8 years old when Israel which according to you equates to Jews does it

[shira]

56. You can't even acknowledge the most obvious child abuse within the videos cited....

If that's not exploiting children in a monstrous way, then what do you call it?

As to Arab males taking advantage of female would-be suicide bombers, here's Judith Miller:

What Israeli officials have more difficulty explaining is why they chose to sacrifice themselves to kill Israelis. Why are so many so eager to do something so profoundly contrary to the human instinct for survival?

Because I found conflicting and only partial answers in the many books that have already been written on suicide attacks, I went to the gates of Hasharon prison to talk to the women themselves. Since Israel has in detention among the largest number of people who have tried and failed to carry out istishhad, or religiously blessed self-sacrifice — nearly half of the 380 aspiring suicide bombers since 2002 have failed or were stopped before carrying out their missions — it seemed a natural place to start.

If Shefa'a al-Qudsi was a willing human weapon in her people's asymmetric war against an overwhelmingly powerful enemy, Wafa al-Biss, 23, is her opposite — the quintessential victim.

Now in the second year of a 12-year sentence, she was deeply distraught on the day she agreed to speak to me. She had never really wanted to become a suicide bomber, she told me tearfully. Life and bad luck had given her no choice. Born into wretched poverty in Jabalya refugee camp in Gaza, one of 12 children, she said that much of her body and fingertips had been burned in a freak cooking accident at home the year before her failed mission. She had been coaxed, no, coerced into becoming a martyr by "Abul Khair," an older man from the Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade. "I wish I had never met him," she said bitterly.

She had tried to do so even before the gas accident, on her birthday in November 2004, that had scarred her body, deformed the fifth digits of both hands, and left her fingertips and chin discolored. Long before that, she told me, she had been in despair. She had grown up desperately poor. Her father was "primitive." He rarely let her go out except to school or the mosque. He and her brothers beat her. She tried to throw herself out a window at age 18, but courage failed her. "Islam says you can't kill yourself. I was afraid of the shame for my family," she said.

"If my family had been normal, if I could have afforded to have been treated in America, if I could wear my hair and live my life like yours," she said, "I would never have thought about killing myself."

Instead, she said, she approached a group known to be associated with the "Resistance." Would they accept her as a martyr?

At first, the man she came to know only as Abul Khair, whom she met secretly at Al Shifa Hospital in Gaza, urged her to think it over. Despite the reverence that fellow Gazans showed martyrs and their families, she hesitated. She called him a week later to say she had changed her mind.

"But they hunted me like prey," she recalled. "Abul Khair kept calling," she said. "He told me a guy they were counting on had backed out of an operation; they needed me. ‘Look at your future,' they told me. ‘No one will ever marry you.' I knew it was true. I was not good at school. I had no future."

http://www.judithmiller.com/754/the-bomb-under-the-abaya

The article doesn't claim all female bombers are taken advantage of like Wafa al-Biss. It's actually a minority. However, this culture of death (aspiring to become suicide bombers and martyrs) is mainstream. It's 24/7/365 over Hamas/PLO airwaves, media, government institutions, and schools. It's brainwashing and exploitation that is beyond vile.

And you don't have a problem with it.

If you condemn it, you're betraying the Palestinian "cause". You fear being labeled a rightwing zionist for doing so. Then again, maybe you can't condemn it b/c you agree with it and you'll continue to justify it. Prove me wrong.

Be human, condemn it.

You can do it...

[azurnoir]

23. so you apparently feel this video is so very important you post it twice on the same thread?

once again who really hates here?

[shira]

27. Here's a different video showing more of the OP's exploitation of children / child abuse

It's hateful pointing this out.....why?

Shouldn't the adults responsible for this disgusting child abuse be held accountable? Wait...you don't think the adults are putting the children up to this, do you? Is that what you're arguing?

[azurnoir]

35. will you deny that you have and others here have called the deaths of the these children

mere collateral at least when they die at the hands of Israeli's? That's hate pure hate
your zeal for these types of video's also show hate how many have posted on this one thread alone, in fact any exchange with you is an excuse for you to post this propaganda and the totality of it years and years of it show the depth of hate you feel

[shira]

55. Israel tries its best to avoid killing Palestinian children. Hamas/PLO encourage children....

...to become martyrs/suicide bombers in order to murder defenseless Jews. They praise, glorify, and reward it. This is something you're indifferent towards. You make excuses for this disgusting child abuse and justify it. OTOH, Israel has the world's best record WRT civilian lives in warfare & you're pretending they're just as bad as Hamas. Anything Israel does in self-defense, no matter how careful they are, is forbidden in your view.

And you're lecturing about pure hate?

Really?

I'll give you another chance: Can you not see anything wrong with the Hamas videos from this thread that encourage Palestinian children to want to kill defenseless Jews?

[azurnoir]

65. you'll give me another chance how generous of you, why have another RW video to post?

but do keep on with your hate filled screed here

[shira]

84. You don't see anything wrong with those videos, which goes to show that the cause u support

....is about as vile and depraved as it gets.

You can't accuse "hasbarists" here of anything that comes even remotely close to the disgusting shit you and yours here support, justify, and explain away.

You can attempt to reply with more deflections, more silly accusations....but it's now quite clear what you and your "pro-Palestinian" friends here are all about.

You have so much to be proud of.

[azurnoir]

88. Two quotes from you on just this thread exemplifying your hatred of Palestinians

Child-sacrificing death cult TV is a bit too much & not entirely PC, so what is it?
How do we explain this phenomena throughout Palestinian society? There are literally dozens of videos like this, demonstrating how mainstream it is.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113448650#post17


This depravity is mainstream throughout Palestinian society.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113448650#post87

now you'll attempt denial but all one has to do look your so called concern for these children is nothing more than a vehicle to promote bigotry against an entire people, a people that have been under brutal military occupation for generations but you'll ignore that and play pretend that what what we see in those video's developed in a vacuum

[shira]

89. More deflection from you. But I'll play along. What's bigoted about bringing that up?

Child-sacrificing death cult TV is a bit too much & not entirely PC, so what is it?

How do we explain this phenomena throughout Palestinian society? There are literally dozens of videos like this, demonstrating how mainstream it is.

This depravity is mainstream throughout Palestinian society.

So how do we rationally discuss what's going on here in a non-bigoted fashion? Or is this subject taboo for some reason?

You're the one saying you care so much for Palestinians and their children. How can you say that when it appears you support what's going on in those videos?

What is going on in those videos, BTW? What do those videos tell us about Palestinian society or about the Palestinian cause that you support?

=======

I'd be shocked if you actually answered these questions. I know this makes you very uneasy. Then again, I also know that a Zionist adding a deck or basement to his/her home in parts of Jerusalem upsets you 100x more than anything in those "bigoted, rightwing" videos.

But prove me wrong.

[azurnoir]

90. what's wrong is that you pretend that 's it happens in a vacuum you ignore the catalyst

just like you ignore the catalyst for what you call the hatred of Israel

[shira]

91. Explain this vacuum. Occupation & settlements justifies brainwashing kids....

...into blowing themselves up and innocent others?

[azurnoir]

92. These kids aren't being brainwashed though are they? in fact you could not provide a single incident

of an actual child suicide bomber, what you gave us was a picture of a kid in military fatigues that we're told is suicide bomber garb, unless of course you think about the logic of that, suicide bombers want to blend in to a crowd and wearing military fatigues just doesn't really provide for that

now about the video of the kids being told about their Mothers death, what would suit you, telling the kids their Mother was a viscous child murderer, telling the kids nothing preferring that they 'forget' her? What would be fitting in your mind ?

and finally yes the occupation I'm willing to wager not one Palestinian has been unaffected by it, the lose of homes, the loss of lives , the nightly home invasions by IDF, the constant vandalism, harassment, and physical attacks by settlers to name just a few things all combine to create this mind set of being embattled

[shira]

93. They're not being brainwashed? Well then what are seeing in those videos, if not?

Those videos show encouragement for kids to become future "martyrs". The videos praise and glorify these suicide missions. The problem is you see nothing wrong with Hamas and the PA making heroes out of suicide bombers who murder innocents in their blasts. The kids in all these videos not only praise their dead parents, but say they will follow suit. All the videos show that this is something ALL Palestinian kids should aspire to. It's one video after the next. I'm sorry, but Progressives shouldn't be saying that Palestinian suicide bombers are praiseworthy, that their missions are justified, and that this is something for kids to aspire towards. But you're precisely that.

The little baby with the military fatigues was wearing a bomb belt with wires. Did you conveniently miss that?

And your favorite source WIKI details child suicide bombers...

Child suicide bombers in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict refers to the exploitation of children to carry out suicide bombings by Palestinian militant groups. Minors have been recruited to attack Israeli targets, both military and civilian, especially during the Second Intifada from 2000 to 2005. This deliberate involvement of children in armed conflict has been condemned by International human rights organizations.[1][2]

According to Amnesty International, "Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly shown total disregard for the most fundamental human rights, notably the right to life, by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and by using Palestinian children in armed attacks. Children are susceptible to recruitment by manipulation or may be driven to join armed groups for a variety of reasons, including a desire to avenge relatives or friends killed by the Israeli army."[3]

According to the Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers "2004 Global Report on the Use of Child Soldiers", there were at least nine documented suicide attacks involving Palestinian minors between October 2000 and March 2004[4] In 2004, the Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers reported that "there was no evidence of systematic recruitment of children by Palestinian armed groups," also noting that this remains a small fraction of the problem in other conflict zones such as Africa, where there are an estimated 20,000 children involved in active combat roles in the Sudan alone.[5] Human Rights Watch also reported that "there was no evidence that the Palestinian Authority (PA) recruited or used child soldiers."[6]

According to the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group, in the al-Aqsa Intifada, children were used as "messengers and couriers, and in some cases as fighters and suicide bombers in attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians" durimng the al-Aqsa Intifada. Fatah, Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad Movement and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine have all been implicated in involving children in this way. The issue was brought to world attention after a widely televised incident in which a mentally handicapped Palestinian teenager, Hussam Abdo, was disarmed at an Israeli checkpoint.[7] The youngest Palestinian suicide bomber who blew himself up was Issa Bdeir, a 16-year-old high school student from the village of Al Doha. He blew himself up in a park in Rishon LeZion, killing a teenage boy and an elderly man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflict#History

You're justifying this sick, twisted shit.

[azurnoir]

94. your wiki page says Palestinian minors not children minors means under 18 still got nothing huh? no

and we're quite regularly told at least when it's a Palestinian minor being killed by Israeli's if they're over 12 or 14 they are not children, so it would seem you apply a different standard when it suits you huh? oh and what about those same 'children' or minors being illegally locked up in Israeli prisons, being dragged out of their beds in middle of the night by IDF home invasions presumably for throwing stones and held without contact from lawyers until they confess andf name others who will like wise be yanked from their beds in the middle of the night and repeat cycle

you seem a okay with that and do not see how that may influence these kids

[shira]

95. It specifies children and so does Amnesty International

Child suicide bombers in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict refers to the exploitation of children to carry out suicide bombings by Palestinian militant groups. Minors have been recruited to attack Israeli targets, both military and civilian, especially during the Second Intifada from 2000 to 2005. This deliberate involvement of children in armed conflict has been condemned by International human rights organizations.[1][2]

[font color = 'red']According to Amnesty International,[/font] "Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly shown total disregard for the most fundamental human rights, notably the right to life, by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and by using Palestinian children in armed attacks. Children are susceptible to recruitment by manipulation or may be driven to join armed groups for a variety of reasons, including a desire to avenge relatives or friends killed by the Israeli army."[3]

According to the Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers "2004 Global Report on the Use of Child Soldiers", there were at least nine documented suicide attacks involving Palestinian minors between October 2000 and March 2004[4] In 2004, the Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers reported that "there was no evidence of systematic recruitment of children by Palestinian armed groups," also noting that this remains a small fraction of the problem in other conflict zones such as Africa, where there are an estimated 20,000 children involved in active combat roles in the Sudan alone.[5] Human Rights Watch also reported that "there was no evidence that the Palestinian Authority (PA) recruited or used child soldiers."[6]

According to the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group, in the al-Aqsa Intifada, children were used as "messengers and couriers, and in some cases as fighters and suicide bombers in attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians" durimng the al-Aqsa Intifada. Fatah, Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad Movement and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine have all been implicated in involving children in this way. The issue was brought to world attention after a widely televised incident in which a mentally handicapped Palestinian teenager, Hussam Abdo, was disarmed at an Israeli checkpoint.[7] The youngest Palestinian suicide bomber who blew himself up was Issa Bdeir, a 16-year-old high school student from the village of Al Doha. He blew himself up in a park in Rishon LeZion, killing a teenage boy and an elderly man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflict#History

Here's Arafat on using children as martyrs. Do you see anything at all wrong with it?

Once again, do you find nothing to object about in that video? Is that not vile and contemptible?

[azurnoir]

96. once again shira you're using different standards aren't you

when Israel kills or imprisons Palestinian minors they are just that minors not children but when you can use it to condem all Palestinians then they're children an obvious and laughable ruse shira

and a 34 second video without context how is anyone to judge from that? why do your sources seem to only use sound bites what are they hiding?

[shira]

97. You're deflecting once again. Explaining it away, justifying it, quotes are out of context....

Pathetic.

Arafat couldn't be more clear. What kind of context do you need? His words speak for themselves, as well as the many videos that Hamas and the PLO produce. It's all the same message.

You're playing games, and pretty much confirming that the cause you support is as vile and depraved as advertised.

[azurnoir]

98. No games no deflection just facts shira and apparently ones you can't account for

of course you want us to judge Arafat on a 34 second sound bite but for most reasoning people that just doesn't wash

[shira]

99. Here's Arafat celebrating the martyrdom of a 14 year old boy...

&feature=player_embedded

He's promoting and encouraging the martyrdom of this child for other kids who see this as a praiseworthy event to emulate. Wonderful stuff for kids, just wonderful.

Not enough evidence for you yet? You need more?

[azurnoir]

100. so you confess Israel killed a 14 yr old for having a sling shot

okay I do not see Arafat "celebrating" I do see him memorializing but what would you have done here forget, tell Palestinian kids to stay quiet, don't make waves don't leave home, what I note that you avoided answering about the Mother will you ignore this too?

and apparently you have yet more bigoted video's with translations from MEMRI (aka shin bet/mossad) itching to post aren't you go ahead dear post all the bigotry you wish it sets an example it does shows where your really coming from, you have absolutely no problem with a Palestinian kid dying for the crime of having a sling shot but do have a problem with him being memorialized

[shira]

101. If you see nothing to object to, then why not celebrate alongside Arafat and the kids?

It's obviously what they want, what they aspire towards. It's praiseworthy stuff for other kids to follow, so why would you have a problem with the way Israel handles it?

[azurnoir]

102. Nothings obvious the vid was strung together sound bites nothing more

the one who has no problem with kids dying seems to you as long as the kid is Palestinian and killers are Israeli

[shira]

103. The denial from you is unreal. Here's Reuters on Wafa al-Biss telling kids to be like her....

"I hope you will walk the same path we took and God willing, we will see some of you as martyrs," Wafa al-Biss told dozens of children who came to her home in the northern Gaza Strip.

Biss was traveling to Beersheba's Soroka hospital for medical treatment in 2005 when Israeli soldiers at the Erez border crossing noticed she was walking strangely. They found 10 kilograms (22 lbs) of explosives had been sewn into her underwear.

A member of al-Aksa Martyrs Brigades, an offshoot of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah party, Biss was sentenced to a 12-year term for planning to blow herself up.

After she spoke, the children cheered and waved Palestinian flags and chanted: "We will give souls and blood to redeem the prisoners. We will give souls and blood for you, Palestine."

Biss said she had planned to blow herself up at the checkpoint but her detonator malfunctioned.

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Freed-would-be-suicide-bomber-tells-kids-to-be-like-her

Ynet also reported this from Reuters...
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4136916,00.html

You deny this too?

Nothing you find objectionable?

Or do you have another excuse to deny the obvious?

[azurnoir]

104. I haven't denied a single thing unlike you who ignores the circumstances

under which this occurs, it's okay shira I understand you seem to believe in the occupation being the right thing in fact you've defended it many many times and without realizing it are doing it here too

you excuse any Palestinian death man, woman, or child as long as it's at the hands of Israeli's

then pretend to be concerned for the same people who if shot by IDF would be either justified or a mere mistake in your own words

[shira]

105. So you find all this Palestinian incitement, encouragement, & praise of suicide missions....

...to be vile; especially when directed at children who are expected to say that they too want to blow themselves up as well in the future?

This really bothers you?

I haven't seen you condemn it once.

Here's PA leadership at a concert, applauding children who sing about wanting to become martyrs themselves...

Does that warm your heart and bring a smile to your face like it does the PA leaders? Or does this make you disgusted?

How about a real answer rather than another evasion?

[shira]

113. You haven't denied anything? You say there's no brainwashing going on, Arafat is memorializing....

You compare a song glorifying a mother's suicide bomb attack with showing Holocaust footage of victims and you claim you're not denying anything?

And then there are the deflections where I'm for occupation, for the IDF killing kids, where kids are minors and not children, pretend concern, etc...

In all the linked videos, can you think of anything you object to and wish to condemn? Anything at all that you certainly do NOT support?

[shira]

112. Arafat is just memorializing? He's praising the boy's death, leading the cheerleading..

Who do you think you're fooling with these lies?

Are you lying to yourself as well?

[azurnoir]

126. wow you've taken to answering ach of my posts twice which means either you really wish to build

comment count, you want something I don't reply too so later you can hysterically proclaim "see see you didn't answer so that means I'M RIGHT" or I hit a nerve

but no shira I'm not answering because you have no wish to discuss you only to post more and more anti-Palestinian video's while proclaiming the deep caring you have for Palestinians aand calling Palestinians a "death cult" ect and will use any exchange to that end

[shira]

129. How do u get Arafat was memorializing when he was cheerleading the boy's death? n/t

[Jefferson23]

106. What did you say?

Explain, what is azurnoir justifying..spell it out.

MEMRI, unreliable to say the least, but you knew that already.


Source Watch: Middle East Media Research Institute

Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) is a Israeli propaganda organization that selectively translates materials from the Arab/Muslim/Iranian press purportedly demonstrating hostility against Israel/Jews. According to the MEMRI web site: "MEMRI emphasizes the continuing relevance of Zionism to the Jewish people and to the state of Israel."[1] It "explores the Middle East through the region's media. MEMRI bridges the language gap which exists between the West and the Middle East, providing timely translations of Arabic, Farsi, and Hebrew media, as well as original analysis of political, ideological, intellectual, social, cultural, and religious trends in the Middle East."[2]

MEMRI has several offices around the world. Americans work in D.C.; British, Spaniards, Italians, Germans, and Norwegians work in the European Union; Israelis in Israel; Japanese in Japan; Arabs also make up some of the people who work for MEMRI.

The MEMRI Web site also says, "selected subtitled clips from mainly arabic and Iranian television have been published since 2004." [3]
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute

Selective Memri

Brian Whitaker investigates whether the 'independent' media institute that translates the Arabic newspapers is quite what it seems


Brian Whitaker
theguardian.com, Monday 12 August 2002 06.29 EDT
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/aug/12/worlddispatch.brianwhitaker

[shira]

107. Did you see the Arafat interview that Azurnoir is questioning....

Az says these are just sound bytes, perhaps taken out of context. There's nothing obvious there to object to. Nothing vile or contemptible. She can't judge Arafat there.

What do you say?

You appear to care about Palestinian kids killed by Israel. But here's Arafat telling us it's a wonderful thing. Do you agree it's as wonderful as Arafat says? The deaths of Palestinian children are the greatest message to the world? Are you as proud as Arafat is of them....wanting to encourage many more of them to go out and martyr themselves?

[Jefferson23]

108. I asked you to spell out what you believe azurnoir is justifying.

That was your claim, please explain. You chose the word, justify..why is that?



I already posted links to why MEMRI is unreliable.

[shira]

109. The Arafat video isn't MEMRI, so what's your excuse for it? How will you explain it away?

Azurnoir justified the following video in #21 above....

...with the following explanation:

on this particular video, were children of the Holocaust never shown reenactments of that? Were children of slain Israeli's never shown reenactments of those incidents either? These are examples of traumatic experiences being relived by survivors

She was justifying the glorification of a suicide terror attack in that video, as well as the message to children that they should all follow in her footsteps as martyrs themselves.

I asked Az if she found the video disturbing or objectionable. She has yet to condemn it. It appears she finds nothing wrong with it.

How about yourself?

[Jefferson23]

114. Oh come off it, you rely heavily on discredited sources and you know it.

She was justifying the glorification of a suicide terror attack in that video, as well as the message to children that they should all follow in her footsteps as martyrs themselves. ( end)

No justification was made as you claim, your attempt at slander is outrageous.

What was I thinking, azurnoir must condemn what you post, regardless of the fact
it comes cast in smoke and mirrors or she is justifying the glorification of a suicide
terror attack..got it.

One must ignore the obvious, the occupation has nothing to do with violence
that has stemmed from it...got it.

Your distortions won't be forgotten.

[shira]

116. So that Arafat video is BS too? Can't comment on it?

She certainly justified the video and never even attempted to condemn it. You won't comment on that video either, much less the Arafat one. Every video is bullshit in your view.

Tell me, do you not believe that the PA and Hamas encourage Palestinian children to become martyrs....that they do not celebrate, glorify, and reward terror operations against innocents? That they do not make heroes out of depraved monsters like Alahm Tamimi and Samir Kuntar?

Or will you avoid answering?

Maybe disappear?

Deflect with more bullshit?

[Jefferson23]

120. I already told you about your sources and you have no evidence

to support your false claims about her.

I have zero interest in discussing your hand picked propaganda..you want
to see violence end...ending the occupation is the ticket.

Your intended distortions about azurnoir got my attention, not this dumb
thread.

[azurnoir]

127. There is really no discussing anything here the very title starts with a false premise

the wave of suicide bombers, there has not been a suicide bombing in Israel in almost 6 years, add to that the vision of the hypersexual non-white male abusing woman and children something of a common racist trope and there you have it, and as I told the OP she only uses the so called discussion as a vehicle to post propaganda from Riightwing sources, which is really what her mission here is IMO.

[Jefferson23]

132. The sources are garbage, and the false claims of justification are beyond the pale. n/t

[shira]

133. Your sources that criticize PMW and MEMRI don't even acknowledge...

Last edited Wed Oct 16, 2013, 06:18 AM - Edit history (1)

...the mass production of genocidal hate and incitement coming out of the PA and Hamas. They rarely, if ever, report on Palestinian leadership recruiting and encouraging children to become soldiers and future suicide bombers.

That discredits your sources, considering the MASSIVE amount of video evidence proving that Hamas and the PA do that.

We're talking massive violations of human rights (children's rights). Really bad stuff that your "credible" sources deliberately ignore. That means they're not credible, in the slightest.

======================

And again, Azurnoir justified all that sick shit in the videos when she wrote that the children (and the adults brainwashing them) had good reason to believe and act upon those beliefs via terror. She blames the occupation, etc. If that's not justification for their heinous acts against Palestinian children and Israeli innocents, what is?

[King_David]

130. Yes MEMRI, unreliable when you don't like what they translated ...

[Jefferson23]

131. They have been discredited, period and not because I say so. n/t

[shira]

134. Your sources don't even acknowledge the problem despite MASS amounts of evidence....

That discredits your sources.

Hell, you discredit and embarass yourself when you ignore and deny Arafat encouraging children to become martyrs (in posts #95 and #99 above). In post #105 the Palestinian leadership is in attendance enjoying a concert where kids are singing about sacrificing themselves.

Do you realize how ridiculous you appear when you deny all this?

And how else am I to see your denial as anything other than tacit support for all this vile shit? The only people who would deliberately deny, ignore, explain away, or justify all that horrendous crap are supporters of that shit. How am I wrong?

[shira]

110. What would be fitting to tell these kids about their mother?

How about not glorifying her death, making her out to be a hero worthy of praise for her actions? How about not encouraging other kids to follow in her footsteps, blowing themselves up along with innocents for the cause?

You don't find any of that disturbing at all, do you?

[shira]

111. They're being brainwashed with the little ode to mom about her carrying a bomb instead of a toy....

...or the little girl. How what mom did is praiseworthy and how other kids should follow in their footsteps.

And you're denying they're being brainwashed.

Why?

[Scootaloo]

45. You asked...

Is that what you think the Israelis are doing with their children? Teaching them how to target defenseless women and children?

[Shaktimaan]

48. That's a t shirt.

Reading one may count as education wherever you're from but most people use books and teachers.

[Shaktimaan]

30. Please.

You aren't really defending dressing a toddler up as a suicide bomber, are you? Do you really think it's like the photos you show in any way? Handling guns = suicide bombing?

[azurnoir]

36. Do suicide bombers commonly wear military fatigues?

isn't that just a bit obvious, I mean you put someone in a crowd dressed like that and what?

But if you want that to be "dressed as a suicide bomber" then be my guest

[delrem]

32. That is blood libel.

That is hate literature.
That is your entire opus. It is sick.

[shira]

85. No, but that's apparently what you and your BDS, apartheid, 1-staters universally support.....

All your deflections withstanding, the Palestinian cause that you champion is basically the same cause that the Palestinian leadership wholeheartedly promotes....

Arafat said it best...

This is the sick, depraved shit you support. It's what the Palestinian cause is to folks like yourself.

I've yet to see any of the freaks from the BDSM, ISM, FreeGaza, Palestinian Solidarity Campaign, Mondoweiss, Electronic Intifada, etc... ever once condemn in no uncertain terms the content of such videos. None have ever blasted into Hamas or the PLO for any of this shit. I've never seen it happen. Not once. All I've seen are deflections, justifications for it, explaining it away, and indifference. I equate that to support. How else am I to see it?

All this is once again confirmation that the entire movement is rotten to the fucking core. This is the Palestinian cause in a nutshell to westerners from the BDSM, FreeGaza, etc...

Their vile hatred and depravity is simply unmatched by anyone on the pro-Israel side. The worst, most f-cked up, sick Kahanists wouldn't use and abuse children like this. But you guys do. None of you have a problem with it and will support it to the end with all your deflections of "blood libel", etc.

Where am I wrong?

[Jefferson23]

115. Link for the photo, shira? n/t

[shira]

117. BBC, here you go...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2071561.stm

And it was authenticated...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-125497/Baby-bomber-picture-joke-says-family.html

[Jefferson23]

118. You could have listed the link when you first posted it.

snip* The image is being taken at face value there, although there is no explanation as to why parts of the print appear to have been blacked out.

Our correspondent says there is no way to independently confirm that the picture is authentic.

[shira]

119. DailyMail confirmed it...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-125497/Baby-bomber-picture-joke-says-family.html

You should read the whole article, as they also mention how widespread the manipulation of children (to become martyrs) has become in Palestinian society.

The article is definitely NOT a pro-Israel piece.

[Jefferson23]

121. You're relentless, shira and without shame. Try reading it.

Your own source, the only legitimate one you listed:

According to the Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers "2004 Global Report on the Use of Child Soldiers", there were at least nine documented suicide attacks involving Palestinian minors between October 2000 and March 2004 In 2004, the Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers reported that "there was no evidence of systematic recruitment of children by Palestinian armed groups," also noting that this remains a small fraction of the problem in other conflict zones such as Africa, where there are an estimated 20,000 children involved in active combat roles in the Sudan alone. Human Rights Watch also reported that "there was no evidence that the Palestinian Authority (PA) recruited or used child soldiers."

Amnesty International.

[shira]

122. And yet more shameless denial from you. DailyMail confirmed and commented....

...on encouraging children to get involved with the "resistance".

Even Amnesty International acknowledged Palestinian recruitment of children for military operations, via manipulation.

Arafat made it clear, on video. Many times.

And here you are in denial, covering for the most vile and depraved PA/Hamas child abuse.

Next you'll tell me you're a humanitarian and peace activist.



Rant on...

[Jefferson23]

123. You were caught distorting....too bad. n/t

[shira]

124. Wrong. You were caught. You're in denial, and you support all that vile shit. n/t

[Jefferson23]

125. Rinse, repeat, shira. lol

adios

[Shaktimaan]

8. I don't think

That term means what you think it means.

[delrem]

39. I would answer, but I censor even myself, regardless of MIRT.

There's some things that shouldn't be said.
For example, a response to someone who claims that shira's provocative posts aren't libelous of a people, in the same as as the worst of "blood libels" rained down from Christendom onto the Jewish people.

[Shaktimaan]

49. Well, that's not what I said.

I said that you clearly seem to have no idea what the term "blood libel" actually means. Because shira's post didn't contain any.

You do know that words have specific meanings right? Racism, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, etc... these are all words you seem to enjoy yet gravely misunderstand.

[shira]

87. Blood Libel is falsely & maliciously accusing a group of people of murder or attempted murder....

...of innocents.

There is absolutely nothing false or libelous WRT accusing Palestinian leaders of inciting and encouraging young Palestinian children to go blow themselves up along with lots of random Israeli Jews.

This depravity is mainstream throughout Palestinian society.

It's the Palestinian cause in a nutshell.

You're uneasy about it b/c you support the Palestinian cause. You just don't like seeing others connecting the dots and exposing your foul views.

[bemildred]

10. Given the prevalence of child prostitution/trafficking world wide compared to suicide terror,

which tends to be very local, I find this explanation lacking.

[azurnoir]

14. +1 however

it does provide the OP with a vehicle for posting seemingly endless 'evidence' of such

[Shaktimaan]

29. It's not indirectly causative.

It's that abuse is frequently used as a means to pressure the victims by an agent dedicated to that work.

It's like saying that abuse played a role in "turning" most street prostitutes. That's obvious to you, I hope? You can't reverse it and say that most abuse victims should therefore become prostitutes. Abuse is a tool used by pimps. Which is why most prostitutes can cite abuse in their histories.

Same thing, according to the OP. Most female bombers were abused. But most abuse victims don't become bombers.

[bemildred]

54. Right, "abuse" is there for the negative effect, not because it's relevant.

You are also assuming that all these people did not decide to try to blow themselves up of their own free will, i.e. that they must have been manipulated or coerced. This is at best speculation when made into a generality.

And all of these parties on either side may be expected to lie in the service of their cause.

Furthermore, suicide is one of the major causes of human death, even without the presence of any political motives, just because their life sucks, and it is fatuous to suggest that Palestinian life under Israeli rule is so heavenly that nobody would want to leave.

And then there are the males bombers, who clearly are not there because they got "soiled".

[shira]

57. It is abuse, manipulation, exploitation, government propaganda and incitement....

What else do you call dozens upon dozens of mainstream Palestinian videos like this?

It's unfortunately part of the Palestinian culture. That video is a source of pride; it encourages, glorifies, and rewards such "resistance" against the occupation. It's not shocking to anyone in any way within Gaza or the WB.

The only people denying how pervasive this is are those who refuse to condemn it...those who tacitly support it, explain it away, and justify it. IOW, vile, lowlife, hatebag scum.

[bemildred]

58. Hi Shira, always a pleasure to find you still read my scribblings.

[shira]

60. There's nothing speculative about Gazans and West Bank Palestinians being manipulated....

...and coerced into suicide missions.

The evidence for it is overwhelming. Here are PA leaders at a concert, enjoying the show. They're not shocked at anything in the video. This is normal mainstream stuff...

Why deny it?

[bemildred]

61. Not even a friendly greeting in response?

Warfare does tend to lead to all sorts of violence and bad behavior, certainly plenty of abuse, I'm not saying it's not true, I'm saying it's not relevant. Some men are pigs, disorder sets them free to act out, fanaticism gives them justifications. There are men who love war, precisely because it sets them free.

Are we supposed to end the I/P conflict to stop this abuse? Or is it stop the abuse to end the I/P conflict? Or is it just the two-minutes of hate that it's for? Personally I like the former, I think the best way to stop this abuse is to resolve the conflict.

[Shaktimaan]

68. If that were the case

Then the research would have documented it, wouldn't it? You think the OP is being speculative by describing causes that she heard constantly over 20 years of working with this specific population? That's evidence. What you are suggesting is speculation, to fit a political ideal that doesn't have any real basis in reality.

The average suicide bomber is usually well educated and not poor by Palestinian standards. In fact, if your hypothesis was correct, that they just want to kill themselves, then we'd be seeing a lot of non bombing-type suicides in the West Bank and more even in Gaza, with far more in worse areas like Lebanon and Syria, right? But we don't.

it is fatuous to suggest that Palestinian life under Israeli rule is so heavenly that nobody would want to leave.

Except no ones saying nobody would want to leave bc it's so awesome. They are saying that the suicide bombers who failed and were caught tend to tell a consistent story that REJECTS the political agenda (which just means it's probably not a massive lie they are told to tell in case they are caught, as you seem to think.) Why would we expect them all to lie in a way that hurts the cause? Is it a new Hamas strategy? "And if you are caught make sure to pretend it was us who coerced you and had nothing to do with the Jews." That seems more likely to you? Over 20 years?

[bemildred]

69. Please see post #61. I don't think we are on the same page at all. nt

[Shaktimaan]

73. True.

I'm not arguing about how to stop it. It exists and the OP is about understanding it.

You see the conflict as the root cause of everything because that's the filter you use. You always ask "how does this apply to the conflict?" And you always find the answer is solely about the conflict.

Suicide bombers to Hamas are just tools, they are a kind of weapon. They invented it because of scarcity. ie: the conflict. But it isn't like Jordan stopped using machine guns once they signed the peace treaty.

Suicide bombing exists now. It has nothing to do with this specific conflict. They're global.

The conflict doesn't create bombers from frustration and poverty. Hamas makes them. It doesn't matter if there's an occupation or not. It was never the cause.

There is no way to stop it from happening.

[bemildred]

81. Ah, you want to "understand" suicide terror, or maybe abuse, but stopping it is not "happening".

And you think I'm nuts.

[Shaktimaan]

82. Abuse?

This forum makes me really tired.
Whatever, yeah. My plan is to understand terrorism so it can be abused.

Look, most Israelis only care about stopping suicide bombers from blowing up on their kid's bus. And if you had a kid on that bus you'd feel likewise. Unfortunately there's nothing they can reasonably do to prevent the desire for Hamas to blow those kids up. That's the sad reality.

The Israelis DID end the occupation in Gaza. And they did not choose peace, did they? The only reason there were rockets and not suicide bombers is because they can't get bombers in from Gaza.

Point being... Didn't help, did it? The withdrawal.

[bemildred]

83. Yep, it's a rotten deal for everybody. nt

[King_David]

74. Nope but 72 virgins does it nt

[bemildred]

80. These abused women and girls want 72 virgins? nt