Palestinian leader condemns attack on 9-year-old Israeli girl

[oberliner]

Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas on Monday condemned an attack on a nine-year-old Israeli girl the day before in the West Bank.

“We oppose on principle aggression against anyone, and the spilling of blood,” he told a group of Israeli MPs visiting his headquarters in Ramallah.

The girl, Noam Glick, was variously described as having been shot or stabbed in a Sunday attack in her garden in the Psagot settlement near Ramallah.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/10/07/palestinian-leader-condemns-attack-on-9-year-old-israeli-girl/

[King_David]

1. No matter what the cause,

How anyone can actually see a 9 yr old girl and then proceed to shoot her or even worse get physically close enough and then stab her, is way beyond any kind of shred of humanity.

[oberliner]

2. To be fair, she was probably a Zionist

And a settler to boot. Subhuman in the eyes of some folks probably.

[King_David]

6. In Hamas' eyes?

Were they Hamas ?

[Mosby]

3. Two Palestinians held in connection to Psagot attack

http://www.timesofisrael.com/two-palestinians-arrested-for-psagot-attack/

[oberliner]

4. Hamas website refers to her as a settler

A nine year old child.

Disgusting.

[King_David]

5. That's depraved. nt

[shaayecanaan]

7. Israel calls them human shields

Last edited Thu Oct 10, 2013, 09:34 PM - Edit history (1)

Maybe Hamas should adapt similar terminology.

After all, its quite irresponsible for the parents of this young girl to deliberately place her in danger in a war zone. Surely it would have been much safer to raise her in Israel.

Although, admittedly, Israel is much more civilised in the way they go about it. You don't get nearly as much blood on your shoes when you shell a UN safe area.

The parents are also spared the trauma of looking into their dead baby's eyes - when its head is blown off.

[Shaktimaan]

21. Sooo

You really don't see any difference between children killed (accidentally or unavoidably), during an attack against a soldier or other legit target, versus actually targeting the children themselves?

I'm serious. Intent is a pretty major aspect of many laws governing warfare. Do you not...?

Or are you implying that when Palestinian kids die it is usually done on purpose? As its own objective. (Like policy? Or more like... "It's cool who cares. Do whatevs. They're not realsie peoples."

[shaayecanaan]

32. Sit down my son...

Israel always responds with tube artillery after Hezbollah rocket attacks. There pretty much isn't anything else that they can do, unless they try and send in ground troops, and we all know how well that went last time.

Have a look at this:-

HA set their rockets, which are usually man portable. People carry them on a motorbike or even on bicycles. They then set the rockets up on rails, and fire them. Then they leave. Even if Israel respond as quickly as possible, its still going to take them several minutes to respond, by which time Hezbollah have well and truly fucked off somewhere else. It would truly be a dumb Hezbollah fighter that managed to get caught by the response. The rails themselves are $10 pieces of steel, who gives a shit?

During the occupation of south Lebanon, this went on for months, years. Artillery crews in Israel dutifully fired round after round, knowing that their perfectly aimed shells were pounding sand. Probably very frustrating for the artillery crews, particularly when they knew that Hezbollah were happily raining shells on northern towns in Israel, civilian casualties be damned.

So something started to happen. Israeli artillery shells would occasionally drop short or drop long. More than occasionally in fact. Quite often, particularly when the fighting was especially bitter, and particularly when HA had inflicted casualties with their own rockets. They would land on Lebanese villages and kill a few peasants from time to time, the same peasants that Israel knew supported Hezbollah. If they couldnt hit HA, well, they probably took something from hitting them instead.

In 1994, the US brokered a deal between Israel and Hezbollah, a limited ceasefire agreement, which is generally referred to as "the rules of the game". Israel conceded that attacks on its soldiers within Lebanese territory by HA was legitimate. HA would stop its rocket attacks on the north of Israel. And Israel would no longer kill Lebanese civilians.

Killings of Lebanese civilians by Israel suddenly dropped to near-zero. And Hezbollah stopped its rocket attacks. Whenever Israel did kill Lebanese civilians, they got a barrage of rockets for their trouble. Israeli artillery magically became more accurate again.

In 1996, due to an Israeli election and the consequent need for dick-swinging on the Israeli side, the agreement broke down (Operation Grapes of Wrath). Things did not go well for Israel thereafter. Seven Israeli soldiers were killed, for the loss of only one Hezbollah fighter. Israel got annoyed. Major-General Amiram Levine of the IDF declared:

"The residents in south Lebanon who are under the responsibility of Hezbollah will be hit harder, and the Hezbollah will be hit harder, and we will find the way to act correctly and quickly."

Suddenly Israeli artillery became inaccurate again. Usually only the one shell would drop short or long, but in the case of the Qana massacre, they all dropped long. Right into the UN compound. The UN filed a report. They said that it was unlikely that the compound was shelled because of a mistake.

Have a look at the video again. The artillery is pretty accurate. The distances are not large, only a few kilometres. Israel can be accurate with its artillery when it wants to be. And when they don't want to be...

I don't assert that there is a formal policy behind all this. Rather, there is a tacit understanding amongst the Israelis that when they are unable to retaliate by targeting Hezbollah directly, they will retaliate by hurting the civilian population that supports them. Ultimately, the man who decides policy is the man with his hand on the trigger.

[fitman]

26. That picture happened in Syria

n/t

[shaayecanaan]

31. Lebanon (nt)

[Israeli]

15. you need to read this oberliner...

http://www.israellycool.com/2013/10/06/psagot-reportage-in-toi-haaretz-slanted-leftward/

do you think that the web site www.israellycool.com are supporters of your Democrat party ?

I assure you they are not .

FYI ... those that live in settlements are refered to as settlers not just by Hamas but by most of us .
Why ?
Because the Wild West Bank does not belong to us ... its not part of Israel proper ... its occupied territory .
The only ones that resent being called " settlers " are the settlers themselves .

[oberliner]

22. Democrat Party?

That's what Republicans and RW-ers call what we know is actually the Democratic Party. Interesting that you would use the wingnut term.

As for that website you mentioned, they do seem to more than lean Republican.

I understand that "those that live in settlements are referred to as settlers" but does that go for children as well?

Is the child a settler?

[Israeli]

29. your playing semantics with me oberliner...

english is not my mother tongue ... and American politics are not my thing .
I am Israeli Left wing .... and that website is pure Israeli Right wing .

Is the child a settler?

in ref to your post " To be fair, she was probably a Zionist "

how can a child decide on a political believe ?

her parents decided for her oberliner..... and if she lives in a settlement , then yes she is a settler .....or if you prefer a child of settlers .

[delrem]

37. I honestly can't understand oberliner's bipolarity w.r.t. I/P

oberliner's posts are interesting and usually thought out. oberliner is no "bot" writing from some prescription.

Yet this kind of post delivers a kick in the face to that judgement.
I find it hard to believe that this post is a reply to discussions about the role that the requirements of Zionism, Islamism, Whateverism, play in the creation of a democracy.

It seems retrogressive.

[oberliner]

60. Oberliner is not bipolar

No, I take that back, Oberliner is bipolar.

[Alamuti Lotus]

8. Soldiers Kidnap Four Children In Qalqilia

Sunday evening [October 6, 2013] Dozens of Israeli soldiers invaded Azzoun Atma town, near the northern West Bank city of Qalqilia, and kidnapped four children, including an 8-year-old.

http://www.imemc.org/article/66226

Only monsters and maniacs would attack a child; true purveyors of humanity and light will attack four of them instead. I doubt Abbas will take much notice he is too busy on his fundraising photo-ops with visiting members of the Israeli parliament.

[oberliner]

9. They were detained for a few hours and turned over to the PA

Who then returned them to their family. Strange that your source would use the word "kidnapped" in that scenario. Even so, at no point were they attacked (no one claims they were, except you).

Fascinating response to the OP incidentally.

[Alamuti Lotus]

10. Function of timing

Read that piece a few minutes before reading the OP; consequently, read the latter in a different light.

[oberliner]

12. Understood

But let me ask you this: if another poster had responded to a post about a Palestinian child being shot or stabbed with a post about something bad happening to an Israeli child, wouldn't that generate some ire from you? I mean that question genuinely and without malice.

[Alamuti Lotus]

18. I'd say that happens pretty often actually

And as none of y'all have the perfect mastery of macabre cynicism as I do, the reaction is usually a slight bit different, but probably somewhere in the same ballpark.

[oberliner]

19. Yes indeed

The Macabre Cynicism Mastery Prize is all yours.

[shaayecanaan]

33. Bullshit, that prize is mine. I got it first (nt)

[oberliner]

34. I did think of you as I was typing that

Maybe we can have some sort of tournament of champions.

[azurnoir]

11. the village Al-Bira/Al-Bireh invaded by an IDF 'operation' to capture the girls assailant

is located in Area A which we are told is supposedly under complete Palestinian control both civil and security, making the capture of the assailant the PA securities responsibility yet when Juliano Mer-Khamis was murdered IDF didn't seem to lift a finger in concern even though Mer-Khamis's Mother is an Israeli Jew, one must wonder why that is?

[oberliner]

13. Why do you think that is?

Any theories?

By the way, did you know that in 2010, a public square in al-Bireh was dedicated to the memory of Dalal Mughrabi, leader of an attack that killed 38 Israeli civilians, including 13 children, in 1978.

I read about that in Wikipedia. Probably planted there by a Zionist.

[azurnoir]

14. yes I knew about Dalal Mughrabi why ever did you feel it necessary to throw that tidbit in?

what does it have in relation to your OP?

IDF's actions were objected to by Abbas as mentioned in the article you posted

[oberliner]

16. Knowledge is power

That tidbit was on the Wikipedia page so I thought you might find it worth knowing.

In any case, it looks like the perpetrators of this crime against this little girl have been caught, so we can all be happy about that, can't we?

[azurnoir]

17. what "power" did you hope to gain or impart with the comment about Dalal Mughrabi?

as for myself I would be happier that the little girl Noam Glick is apparently at home and recovering well

[oberliner]

20. A fuller understanding of the relationship

I think ignorance leads to misunderstanding.

One of the great things about Wikipedia is the inclusion of such tidbits so that you can understand the larger context.

When you say Noam Glick is "at home" - you mean a home that she and her family have no right to be living in and are occupying illegally, correct?

[azurnoir]

27. what fuller understanding? IDF invaded Area A period and this

When you say Noam Glick is "at home" - you mean a home that she and her family have no right to be living in and are occupying illegally, correct?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113448489#post20

thank you for such a revealing comment that along with being offended at the child being called a "settler" say volumes

[Shaktimaan]

24. Maybe this?

"We are determined to name the square after Dalal," said Adnan Damiri, the senior Palestinian security official from Fatah who has spearheaded the effort. The square is next to a security headquarters.

"I can't understand the Israeli fuss," he added, noting that Israel has named numerous streets and buildings after military heroes who killed Palestinians in battle.

If a senior PA security guy can't see a difference between killing children and killing soldiers on a battlefield then they may not even view this as a priority. Or a crime even?

Maybe the PA search was just to give him an award? I'm kidding... There obviously wasn't a search. Or they'd probably have arrested him first.

For real. Were they really even looking for him?

Actually this makes sense. If they're commemorating someone whose greatest accomplishment was how many unarmed women and children she massacred, then it would appear they're setting a pretty low bar over there.

[azurnoir]

28. and Israel made the murderer of UN official Prime Minister

but I see smearing Palestinians is what is really important here

[Shaktimaan]

35. Oh I'm sorry

Please enlighten. What else did this individual do? And why is she so honored?

Was the PM elected BECAUSE he killed a UN official?

The terms are: "because of" versus "in spite of".

I have no interest in smearing Palestinians. This one happened to be a terrorist who mowed down defenseless children, an act she is celebrated for. I didn't choose her as a model citizen for Palestinian society. They did.

I think it's wild that I criticize a true monster of a person and you suggest it's because she's Palestinian.

[azurnoir]

38. trying to justify IDF's illegal actions?

first going as far as to claim the child Noam Glick was killed when indeed she was not,

Well it had nothing to do with race apparently.

If both were Jewish.

Maybe cuz one was an act of terrorism against a small child who was killed inside if Israel's jurisdiction and the other was thought to be a regular crime against a guy in Ramallah who was Jewish. That one was Palestinian terror makes the Palestinian government responsible to a degree. Since Israel is holding them to task for failing to curb terrorism it makes sense that they'd not make this a buddy operation. For politics more than tactics I'm sure.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113448489#post23

what you fail to mention is that Juliano Mer-Khamis was born of a Jewish Mother and Palestinian Arab Father and he indeed was murdered

what has been revealed is that apparently you believe that Palestinian security and civil control of 18% of the West Bank is 'flexible', dependent on Israel's mood and inclinations and justifying them by the fact that the village dedicated a square to Dalal Mughrabi who committed a terrorist act in 1978, because Israel finds it offensive

Thank you and others for providing this example for us

[shira]

39. You don't find it offensive to honor or dedicate streets/squares to a murderer like Mughrabi?

Do you have a problem condemning the many Palestinians who make Dalal Mughrabi, Wafa al-Biss, or Samir Kuntar out to be heroes?

You do have a problem denouncing that, don't you?

The many hundreds or thousands of Palestinians who praise, glorify, or honor monsters like al-Biss and Kuntar.....it's these people who are the "victims of colonialism, occupation, and apartheid" whose civil rights you support....is that correct? If you were to condemn these people, you'd cease being pro-Palestinian, right? Better to attack those (like myself) who are appalled and disgusted by those who worship the murderers of innocents. Yes?

Just asking.

If you're going to deflect/avoid, save it. I'll have my answer.

[Shaktimaan]

40. Sorry...

I thought she was killed. My mistake.

what has been revealed is that apparently you believe that Palestinian security and civil control of 18% of the West Bank is 'flexible', dependent on Israel's mood and inclinations and justifying them by the fact that the village dedicated a square to Dalal Mughrabi who committed a terrorist act in 1978, because Israel finds it offensive

Yes and no. Yes, I believe the idf has the right to enter area a but not for the reason you gave. The reason is because they DO have the right to enter area a whenever they have a reason to.

And I love how you act as though the dedication and the terrorism are unconnected. Like killing all those people was just one act in a life chock full of legitimate reasons to be honored. Who are you trying to fool? The dedication was because of the terrorism. That it happened in 1978 hardly seems relevant except in the sense that it's clear that time hasn't blunted the admiration felt by some for a person whose sole accomplishment was killing a lot of Jews. It's as if they named a street in Israel after Baruch Goldberg. How can you defend such a thing and still expect your opinions to be respectfully considered.

[azurnoir]

41. what right does IDFhave to enter an area deemed by Oslo to be under complete Palestinian control

while you carry on about who the Palestinians wish to honor you completely leave out that neither time or legally reached agreements like Oslo have loosened the grip of Israel over the Palestinian people and every word you written only further proves that

[Shaktimaan]

42. Deemed by Oslo?

WTF does that mean? Who's Oslo? Hahaha.

Look, it's very simple. The PA has certain rights and responsibilities as specified under Oslo and later agreements. Nowhere did Israel imply that area A was to be treated the same as a sovereign power. It's an intermediary step to get the PA used to administrating and policing and to grant Israel a measure of security until a final deal can get inked. At no point did Israel sign away it's own rights and responsibilities regarding area A. It's still part of the West Bank and it's still technically under occupation. Israel's ultimately in charge there.

And the fact that this reality is usually expressed by minor incursions like this one instead of, say, permanent lockdown and strict curfews after 6 for everyone is a perfect example of how Israel's grip over the area HAS loosened a lot over time and after many years of peace and negotiations. That you can't see a difference there is a failure of yours, not Israel's.

[azurnoir]

43. I would think that Area A being under complete Palestinian Civil and Security control

would be what deemed and ya know the Oslo accords the ones that Israel uses as an excused to transfer almost half a million of it's civillian population to the West Bank under?

the rest of your is entertaining indeed perhaps you should write Senator Kerry the POTUS and the Quartet and tell what Oslo really means which according to you is what ever Israel wants it to at the moment

In short Israel has no rights to impose a military action of any kind in Area A

[Shaktimaan]

44. Except...

"43. I would think that Area A being under complete Palestinian Civil and Security control"

Um, complete Palestinian control was never mentioned in the Oslo accords. Nothing remotely like it was in there.

This is though.

In order to guarantee public order and internal security for the Palestinians of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, the Council shall establish a strong police force as set out in Article XIV below. Israel shall continue to carry the responsibility for defense against external threats, including the responsibility for protecting the Egyptian and Jordanian borders, and for defense against external threats from the sea and from the air, as well as the responsibility for overall security of Israelis and Settlements, for the purpose of safeguarding their internal security and public order, and will have all the powers to take the steps necessary to meet this responsibility.

[azurnoir]

45. puleez so Area A is not under Palestinian control I see

I'll bookmark that bit of flotsam for future use 'cause it will indeed come in handy

but let's see here Israel felt in necessary to launch a military operation to ketch one guy who as it's been described but not to letch a group of masked men who actually murdered a man who's mother is a Jew but whose father is Palestinian, thanks I guess the priorities are obvious here

[Shaktimaan]

46. Good lord

Do you really not understand this?

How is that possible?

[azurnoir]

47. I do understand completely what we're being sold BTW does a bridge come with that too?

your best hope is that someone ls reading this will not

oh and see my edit to the previous comment and wonder why I'm continuing to entertain this line of discussion

[Shaktimaan]

49. I am very sorry

That the world is different than you assumed.

[azurnoir]

50. oh I'm not sorry at all as I said this ones a keeper

Area A is only under Palestinian control when it suits Israel, which would mean that all of the West Bank is under Israeli military occupation

[Shaktimaan]

51. Correct

Sorta. Close enough anyway.

But yes, the entire West Bank is still under israeli occupation. The PA has wide, but still limited, control over specific aspects of governing and security.

[azurnoir]

52. The specific area of security seems to only Palestinian on Palestinian crimes again thanks for that

n/t

[Shaktimaan]

53. Uhh no.

Don't know where you got that. The PA is responsible for all security within area a. That doesn't mean Israel is forbidden from exercising incursions for security reasons. There are overlapping responsibilities. Just because the FBI can move in on a suspect in NYC doesn't mean the NYPD isn't responsible for law and order. Think of that as a metaphor.

[Shaktimaan]

48. I know

You love to see the world through a certain filter and nothing I say will have any affect on that. Israel sent a team in on this occasion and not another one. There are a bunch of obvious reasons why things happened that way. The most reasonable might be that this case involved terrorism against a settlement and the victim was a child. While the other was probably not terrorism, took place in PA territory and the victim was an adult.

Or maybe it was because his father was an Arab and Israel makes most military decisions based on exactly that.

[Shaktimaan]

23. Well it had nothing to do with race apparently.

If both were Jewish.

Maybe cuz one was an act of terrorism against a small child who was killed inside if Israel's jurisdiction and the other was thought to be a regular crime against a guy in Ramallah who was Jewish. That one was Palestinian terror makes the Palestinian government responsible to a degree. Since Israel is holding them to task for failing to curb terrorism it makes sense that they'd not make this a buddy operation. For politics more than tactics I'm sure.

But why? Was there something stopping the PA from arresting him, while he sat within their Area? If Israel doesn't call to give them the address then they can't do anything?

[azurnoir]

25. The child Noam Glick was not killed she's at last report I read was recovering at home

after being hospitalized

9 Year Old Noam Glick Going Home to Psagot

Read more at: http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/9-year-old-noam-glick-going-home-to-psagot/2013/10/09/

[Miranda4peace]

54. This kind of stuff is going to happen in Palestine until the European/American/Russians withdraw.

Its unfortunate that a child was drawn into this war, but one must ask why Netanyahu puts children on the front lines?

Shame on the attacker and Netanyahu.

[oberliner]

55. What does this mean?

Until the Russians withdraw? Children on the front lines?

Can you explain more clearly what you are talking about?

[Miranda4peace]

56. Palestine was colonized, the colonists should return home.

Israel must withdraw to the 46 lines, prior to occupation. If they don't they will always be dealing with a native population that is going to fight to regain their land.

It's pretty simple. If Chinese troops were to occupy California they would have an expectation to be fought against with the full force of the United States military. Unfortunately Palestine hasn't been allowed it's own military, so it has depended on the aid of others.

If you consider this a war, or a conflict unfortunately children become victims in conflict. We see this with US drone strikes in Pakistan and strikes in Yemen. It's terrible, its sad, unfortunately religious zealotry and greed have ruled to create this conflict.

[oberliner]

57. The 46 lines?

I've never heard or seen that phrase used before.

What lines would those be?

Edit to Add: Also still trying to figure out what you mean when you say that the Russians need to withdraw. There are no Russian forces present as far as I am aware.

[Miranda4peace]

58. See the map? All green land in the first photo must be vacated by colonist forces and their children

Last edited Wed Oct 30, 2013, 01:56 PM - Edit history (1)

allowing the natives and their children the right of return. Fair compensation must be paid totaling all profits derived from business ventures on green land in photo one(Teva, Ahava, IBM etc), compensation must be made for any demolished structures or crops(Jaffe fields, olive groves, demolished homes etc), compensation must be made for any resources extracted(Natural gas, water etc) All military hardware would be handed over immediately and all countries that provided hardware to the colonist forces will now be forced to train the returning Palestinian natives how to use the hardware as well as training the new military to a sufficient degree so that they are capable of protecting their sovereignty and managing any disasters that occur.

In answer to your question" Also still trying to figure out what you mean when you say that the Russians need to withdraw. There are no Russian forces present as far as I am aware. "
Europe, Russia must recompense any of their nationals that fled to Palestine following the Second world war in order so that those nationals and/or their children may return to their native territories without prejudice, be given shelter equal to the average held by citizens, with an income coinciding with the current national average, reciprocity of any educational degrees or certifications will be granted.

[oberliner]

59. OK I understand what you are saying now

Thank you for clarifying.