If this isn't apartheid, then what is it?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

http://972mag.com/if-this-isnt-apartheid-then-what-is-it/79513/

While apartheid remains associated in our minds with its South African origins, legally it has no necessary relation to South Africa. We do not need to find identical practices to those prevailing in pre-1994 South Africa in order to determine whether apartheid exists elsewhere. The key question is the identification of a regime that practices systematic oppression and domination by one group over another. How then does it apply to Israel?

---

The Israeli regime is based on an ethnic/religious distinction between Jewish insiders and Palestinian outsiders. It expands citizenship beyond its territory, potentially to all Jews regardless of their links to the country, and contracts citizenship within it: Palestinians in the occupied territories and refugees outside have no citizenship and cannot become Israeli citizens.

The regime combines different modes of rule: civilian authority with democratic institutions within the Green Line (pre-67 boundaries), and military authority beyond it. In times of crisis, the military mode of rule spills over the Line to apply to Palestinian citizens in Israel. At all times, the civilian mode of rule spills over the Line to apply to Jewish settlers. The distinction between the two sides of the Line is constantly eroding as a result, and norms and practices developed under the occupation filter back into Israel. Israel as a ‘Jewish democratic state’ is ‘democratic’ for Jews and ‘Jewish’ for Arabs.

[aranthus]

1. Another deliberate misrepresentation of apartheid.

"The key question is the identification of a regime that practices systematic oppression and domination by one group over another."

Nope. Not the key question. At least not if you are trying to justify calling a practice apartheid. since this guy can't even get the definition of apartheid right, the rest of screed is just worthless.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

2. You'd be less wrong if you tried reading for a hobby.

First, let us examine the meaning of apartheid. The term defines the race-based regime of political domination and social marginalisation that ruled South Africa from 1948 to 1994. Alongside this meaning, another definition emerged in international law, drawing on the South African example but gradually moving away from it. With the demise of the apartheid regime in 1994, its legal meaning took a decisive step away from South African realities. The 2002 Statute of the International Criminal Court contains no references to South Africa and regards apartheid as “an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group.” We must also bear in mind that the 1965 International Convention on eliminating racial discrimination extends the term to cover “any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin.” In other words, it is not restricted to ‘race’ in the common meaning that invokes real or imaginary biological differences in its definition.

[pelsar]

5. thats a nice definition...

and it fits israel...and the US and Canada and Austraila, and Russia and Zimbabwa and pretty much every nation on the globe today. Infact a smart lawyer (or even a mediocre one can find fault probably with cities towns and even neighborhoods) with that broad based definition.

an example:
...of americas apartheid can be found in its neighborhoods. Using a variety of tools, (economic, social) white, elite suburban neighborhoods manage to keep out the lower income blacks from living with them....its an institutionalized system of banks, and city laws that work it out.

the conclusion is that this particular definition (there are many, just asked around) of the word has become weakened and politicalized....rendering it useless.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

7. I love the false equivalency of the apologist brigade.

Keep up the spin, little top.

Eventually spin runs out.

[pelsar]

9. the NAACP disagrees with you...

so your going to now disagree with Americas foremost experts on blacks in the US?

are you accusing the NAACP of spin? or being apologist? of "diverting the conversation?"


The NAACP in New Haven, which was ranked 15th most liberal city in the nation in a report by the Bay Area Center for Voting Research, has released a report making the accusation.

The report, in fact, is called “Urban Apartheid.”

That’s according to the New Haven NAACP chapter, which likens the city’s practices to the South African system that maintained official policies of racial segregation that included political, legal and economic discrimination against blacks.

http://mobile.wnd.com/2013/05/liberal-american-city-charged-with-apartheid/

the only way they can declare apartheid is if they use a definition as per the OP, which is what my original post was all about, the broadening of the definition until the point where it no longer means anything.
_______

btw i decided i owe you a more precise reaction to your initial research on zionist superiority....you did the research and you mentioned that my answer was quick and shallow, which it was, so i shall return to you post at bit later. It will be interesting if you will reply in turn, that we shall see.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

13. I'm accusing you of spin to defer accountability. It's that simple.

[pelsar]

16. i'm still on your definition of apartheid...

i cant take accountability until its definition is clear..at least your version. (there are many), if your version agrees with the OP...then i agree israel is an apartheid state, just like New Haven.

but i dont see that your version, based on zionist supremacy being the same as the OP here, which is far more general

it could be this is also a subject that you don't want to explain, as you have several subjects you seem not to believe you have to explain....

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

21. You already agreed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113448132#post5

thats a nice definition...and it fits israel...

DERP...

[pelsar]

27. if that is your definition...

then you agree with the NAACP that new haven is also defined as an apartheid society. and do you agree that the PA/Hamas are also apartheid societies? as well as Canada?

or are these yet more subjects that you dont want to talk about?..you seem to be rather limited in your ability to actually explain yourself or perhaps you prefer not to have your beliefs questioned., where you actually have to defend them.

is that it?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

36. Bye bye, derp.

[shira]

41. Yes, we realize you're only here to throw feces on the wall & then run.

Run R.Daneel, Run!

[pelsar]

86. derp?

am i supposed to be insulted? is derp a 'bad" thing to be. Should i react like a 10 year old and cry to mommy that someone called me a derp

or perhaps i am supposed to ask for a jurys decision to know if being called derp is like being bullied?

perhaps you would like to enlighten me as to the meaning of derp so that i shall have the proper reaction.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

98. Take it any way you like it.

Now back to Israeli apartheid...

[pelsar]

102. im asking for some help here... this derp thingy

would you perhaps explain it to me?....we dont know about derps here in israel, so i'm looking for the local translation. You do believe in multi culturalism dont you?

Obviously you know what it means, and how you meant to use it, so, lets see some of that maturity and explain it

i know you can do it

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

108. Thanks for the kick.

[pelsar]

110. no problem...thats what derps are for....

I'm sure its very important for you to have your posts be at the top of the list..i won't go in to the psychological need for it, but lets just say us derps are sensitive toward others in need.

btw, you too can "kick" you own post up and i can assure you most of us here will not think less of you

[King_David]

28. That's the best defense you can make of your ideology ?

No wonder the American non radical non uber marginal majority of people are not persuaded of this ridiculous "Apartheid " argument ...

The proponents have nothing . They are considered marginal radicals with nasty agendas.

[mwrguy]

3. Israel is apartheid on steroids

[shira]

6. So is Australia, Canada, the USA....using the OP's definition of 'apartheid'. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

8. SPIN spin SPIN spin SPIN spin SPIN spin SPIN spin SPIN spin SPIN spin SPIN spin SPIN spin SPIN spin

[shira]

11. July 2013: Canada’s own Apartheid

While researching models of segregation, South Africa sent delegates to North America to look at Indian Reservations

http://www.troymedia.com/2013/07/09/canadas-own-apartheid/

[shira]

12. August 2013: Australia’s apartheid regime

An aboriginal leader, Sol Bellear, chairman of the Redfern Aboriginal Medical Service provides a valuable insight into the Australian aboriginal rights movement since the 1950s. A lot of great aboriginal leaders had achieved some great strides in aboriginal self determination over the years. However, since John Howard got rid of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission, taking away a platform for aboriginal voices, the media and Australian governments have ignored aboriginal people’s rights. There is a silent, subtle and informal genocide and assimilation policies being implemented by all Australia governments.

http://fredleftwich.com/2013/08/30/australias-apartheid-regime/

[shira]

14. Sept 2013: Detroit is the Nexus of New American Apartheid

Detroit is the epicenter of the African American economic and political crisis, an 85 percent Black metropolis whose citizens have been stripped of their fundamental democratic rights so that their public assets and private pensions can be confiscated by the finance capitalist class. Wall Street now runs the city outright, through an emergency financial manager. A similar regime prevails in all of Michigan’s largely Black cities, resulting in the disenfranchisement of more than half the state’s Black population. What is emerging in the second decade of the 21st century is a new version of American Apartheid, in which the inhabitants of largely Black urban centers are denied a meaningful vote or the legal capacity to safeguard their collective and individual property from the grasping hands of the rich. In the language of declining capitalism, this is called austerity, but in America it takes the form of a racialized order in which concentrated populations of Blacks have no rights that the bankers are bound to respect. While the party-goers clink their glasses at the Black Caucus gala in Washington, a great political and economic implosion is unfolding in urban America, with Detroit as ground zero.

http://www.blackagendareport.com/content/detroit-nexus-new-american-apartheid

[shira]

15. Aug 2013: Child poverty in Britain is causing 'social apartheid'

Report from leading British charity blames 'failure of political will' as it finds poor children have fewer life chances

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/aug/24/child-poverty-social-apartheid-ncb

[King_David]

31. That's a very persuasive argument ...

I'm surprised the majority of Americans ... Don't agree with you ... Heck not even a handful of Democratic Party members agree with that.

The biggest discernible group advancing the Israel is apartheid theory are the ultra right wing clan in the USA such as David Duke et al.

You have your work cut out for you Daneel ... Get moving... Lots to do...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

35. Well, dave, I really don't care what you believe.

Now back to apartheid Israel...

[King_David]

38. Yes that's the ticket , very in depth analysis

Last edited Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:21 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm sure you'll win a lot of Democrats to your way of thinking ... Israel as an "apartheid" state hasn't taken off as much with my Democratic Party members .

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

64. "I'm sure you'll win a lot of Democrats to your way of thinking..."

My point is to educate DU on what Israel does to the Palestinians. The ultimate goal for you and others, who do not like that, is to both ignore my point and to try and dilute it: the hasbara propagandist way.

[King_David]

68. Good Luck with that,

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

69. Your silence on my definition of your agenda is apt.

Also, my luck, also known as truth, will come from hard work in educating my fellow DUers.

[King_David]

70. Get moving on it you have your work cut out for you

The Democratic Party must be a huge diss appointment to you as must be the American people...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

83. People grow tired of apartheidist Israel, dave.

[shira]

42. RDO, can you name any current Dems in Congress or the Senate who accuse Israel....

..of apartheid, like David Duke and Pat Buchanan do?

And if not, what does that tell you about your views when compared to Duke and Buchanan?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

65. And here come the propagandists I just mentioned.

I'll name a Democrat that has compared what Israel does to apartheid. His name is former President Jimmy Carter.

[shira]

71. Can't name one current Dem congress critter or senator, can you?

You're the extreme fringe.

Deal with it.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

82. You're a day old doughnuttter. Now that we have that out of the way I shall laugh in your

general direction.

[shira]

91. Tough to acknowledge your I/P views are much closer to Pat Buchanan & David Duke....

...than any current progressive/liberal democratic congress critters or senators, isn't it?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

99. Tough to acknowledge that you can't run from Israeli apartheid...

[azurnoir]

117. there you go again

comparing another DUer to rightwingers like Duke and Buchanan sort of makes one wonder hmmm.......

[shira]

119. Well then, ask yourself....are your views on I/P closer to elected Dems

in congress and the senate, or closer to the views of racist rightwingers like Buchanan and Duke.

If closer to the views of elected Dems, explain how.

[azurnoir]

121. lol elected Dems with elected being the key word here how many elected Republicans feel the same?

because if you were to poll people on this this board the outcome might be different

[shira]

122. Deflection. I rest my case. We both know whose views on I/P yours are closer to. n/t

[azurnoir]

124. ah don't dare answer do you? why is that?

and about your admiration of our elected Democratic officials may I present this item the subject was Iran
shira (19,195 posts)

2. The OP goes to show our top elected officials & diplomats are delusional idiots....

This is just astounding stupidity.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3622245

[WatermelonRat]

4. If the Law of Return is enough to brand Israel an Apartheid state...

Then what about all of the other with similar citizenship laws? Hungary has laws that allow ethnic Maygars to immigrate, China gives priority to overseas Chinese immigrants, and India grants citizenship to any immigrant of Indian descent. In Bulgaria, Lithuania, and Armenia, it is constitutionally enshrined that Bulgarians, Lithuanians, and Armenians may obtain citizenship. In Japan, not only are ethnic Japanese favored, but it's nearly impossible for non-Japanese to obtain citizenship, and there are ethnic Koreans who have been living in Japan for generations yet lack citizenship. Why do none of these countries get tarred with the term and all of its stigma? I've seen the term used against no other country, not even in reference to the segregation-era American south, which resembled South African apartheid a hell of a lot more than anything in Israel.

Oh, and I love that disclaimer claiming that they don't have to find any actual similarity between Israel and South Africa to fling the Apartheid label around.

[shira]

73. Great post. These clowns who cry Israeli Apartheid....

1. Tacitly support Lebanese apartheid vs. Palestinian refugees there who are denied working in certain professions, denied land ownership, public schooling, voting rights, etc. It's so bad, they can't even admit it's apartheid.

2. The screamers also support a future Palestinian state which Mahmoud Abbas has claimed (along with his US Ambassador) would be Jew-free. It's already illegal under the PA to sell land to Jews.

3. In addition, they fully support a UN that deliberately discriminates against Israel and is therefore conducting its own apartheid vs. Israel. The Jewish state is the only one that is denied membership on certain UN committees like the Human Rights and Security Councils. The screamers applaud this.

4. They are intentionally cheapening the true meaning of apartheid and therefore belittling the suffering of the real victims of the evil perpetrated in South Africa for decades.

========

Bottom line is we're dealing with clowns posing as rights activists. They're marginal fringe within American Liberal Democratic circles for a reason. Norm Finkelstein describes them as a cult. These types are exactly the kind of people he is describing here:

[oberliner]

10. Discrimination

Author actually provides that answer in the piece.

[azurnoir]

17. Thanks for posting

and may I add that I'm finding the desperate finger pointing going on here almost humorous because what gets conveiniently left out is that the so called apartheid that the look over there posts are claiming has left out one very important factor-it's not enshrined in written laws, something that makes the difference between apartheid and discrimination

[shira]

18. You're in denial of apartheid then...

The articles cited above speak of apartheid, and let's remember that apartheid needn't be identical to the kind that was practiced in S.Africa.



Perhaps you know better than the anti-apartheid movements in Australia, Canada, and the US. Maybe you should contact them and tell them it's discrimination, not apartheid.

[azurnoir]

19. no I'm simply not attempting to redefine as I have no need to do that

and oh did you forget your fav-o-rite?

[shira]

20. So the anti-apartheid movements in the US, Australia, & Canada are wrong....

They're falsely redefining discrimination as apartheid in your view?

You're making zionist hasbara arguments now.

Spin, spin....

[azurnoir]

22. yes such groups are wrongly appropriating the word

and it seems to suit your needs more than mine so really who's needs are these groups serving

[shira]

23. so apartheid can be, and is, a political charge - right? n/t

[azurnoir]

24. properly it is a legal one IMO

as I initially stated true apartheid is enshrined in laws not simply actions that is discrimination, or to make it real simple for you a state or country where Gay Marriage between 2 consenting adults simply because they are same sex, when the marriage would be allowed if they were opposite sex is, illegal by law for that reason is apartheid

In the case of a Minister or Justice refuses to conduct a marriage ceremony when it is indeed legal simply because the couple is same sex is discrimination

[shira]

25. Lebanon's apartheid vs. Palestinian refugees is enshrined in law...

But I've never seen you call that apartheid.

Why isn't that apartheid?

I'm looking for consistency in your view, not bullshit. That's why I persist.

[azurnoir]

26. geez what took you so long, I was waiting for Lebanon

again though Lebanon's treatment of Palestinians while detestable is not apartheid because Palestinians are not Lebanese citizens, now if Lebanon hadf one set of laws that applied to it's Druze citizens and another that applied to say it's Muslim citizens and yet another that applied to its Christian citizens you'd have a point but as it stands not so much

[pelsar]

30. actually lebanon does...Personal status laws

its a real mess when it comes to religion and its division of laws...

http://www.irinnews.org/report/93267/lebanon-hotchpotch-of-religious-laws-restricts-basic-rights

personally i dont call it apartheid as much as an attempt at communities retaining their own cultures...with the result being a real mess.

[azurnoir]

49. So just like in Israel

persons from different religions ie Jewish, Christian, Muslims have to go Cyprus to marry have and.........

[pelsar]

51. and its not apartheid....

thats all

[azurnoir]

116. Nope because like in Israel that particular law is applied equally all around :)

[shira]

40. So Lebanon is not apartheid since Palestinians aren't citizens....

But Palestinians in the W.Bank aren't citizens of Israel either, and that doesn't stop you from accusing Israel of apartheid there.

So what gives?

[azurnoir]

50. and the West Bank is not Israel

no matter how hard you claim Oslo allows this or that, it did not make the West Bank into Israel

[shira]

57. we're talking apartheid and your seemingly hypocritical, double-standards....

Either it's apartheid in both the W.Bank and Lebanon with Palestinian non-citizens, or it's not.

So what is it?

As for within Israel....

Jimmy Carter: “I know that Israel is a wonderful democracy with equal treatment of all citizens whether Arab or Jew."

[azurnoir]

118. why because you want folks here on DU to think so?

not quite and really your say so doesn't much impress, where'd that talking come from? CAMERA, someone on PJ's media?

and I know this is hard for you but things have changed in the nearly 7 years since Jimmy Carter made that statement

[shira]

123. You don't have a consistent definition of apartheid. You have double standards.

And unless you can show Jimmy Carter has changed his opinion since 2006, you've got nothing but smoke-and-mirrors.

[delrem]

29. Exactly. Don't expect a hasbarist to even acknowledge the distinction you make, though.

Even in an attempt to refute it.

That would require putting something unspeakable into words, namely "apartheid laws" and "apartheid constitution", and no hasbarist will ever go there. Not ever.

[pelsar]

32. why not?

what exactly is your question......if your willing to actually define your version of apartheid, we can then exam it further, but given its many colors, including the NAACP claiming apartheid in New Haven, i would suggest that you have to be specific.

this is fuking forum....nothing to be afraid of (at least not that i can see)

[delrem]

34. A case in point.

[pelsar]

52. another subject you "cant talk about" (no "internet courage")

an intereresting internet cultural phenomoman is the inability and intollernce of of many to explalin themselves. I personally dont mind it from the fascists or religious i always find fascintating when it comes from the "progressive" that can talk of tolerance, or multiculturalism, while at the same time showing the same characterisitcs of any right wing fascit group.

so, since i have a bit more patience with the 'religious", i've decided to give u another chance. Mainly on your list, that you apparently believe its as clear as black and white to define apartheid.

which even a non lawyer like me can find holes in the apartheid argument. Of course i have to make several assumptions on your part, since there are subjects you dont like to talke about or explain. (I guess because of your superior knowledge of all things).

at any rate what appears to be the core of your arguement is that jews have to be superior,

One of the facts that you blithely dismissed: Israel's basic laws (aka constitution) *requires* that there be a Jewish demographic majority. Pretty breathtaking law,

but that apparently can be changed:
It added that any change in the national definition of Israelis has to be carried out by the Knesset and not by the court.

hence this basic law of who is and who isn't a jew is up to the knesset, which represents and is voted in by the people. So once Israeli and her friends get the majority, that is simply rescinded.

see how simply that is, hence this claim of yours is simply false.
___________________________________________

so too with your others, they all have gray areas, they all have precedents that other countries have as well.
where your a real internet coward is your inability to write out yourself how you define apartheid, when you find that internet courage, (which really doesnt take much), then the real fun will begin

but i doubt you will.....it will expose your belief to be nothing more than a belief with nothing to stand on.

[delrem]

53. Do you know what the term 'blithering' means, pelsar?

Didn't think so.

[pelsar]

54. i just recognize a religious 'coward'

who cant actually write out and define your definition of apartheid.....

try it, i promise no one will come to your door at night

or your might learn tolerance, now thats a concept...

[delrem]

55. OK, I'll explain the meaning.

A person who blithers away on internet forums is one who neither knows nor cares what the topic of any discussion is, and who neither knows nor cares how people have responded to those blitherings already. Blitherers are common on internet forums. They are also obsessively insistent. No blitherer would *ever* allow someone else the opportunity to have the last comment capping their blithering idiocy.

For example I've met with blitherers who, no matter how many times it's been explained that the meaning of the legal term 'apartheid' is encoded in legalese and is look-upable, the blitherer insists that others make up their own definitions, definitions that ignore the legal norm, then count themselves "victors" when it's explained that their demand is self-contradicory. Blitherers are a special breed, that's for certain.

[pelsar]

56. and in the interest of communication...

i too have noticed a certain type of poster, which i do believe you seem to represent. It is the type that has at its base a belief in their own superiority over others, a lack of tolerance for others as well as their cultures. We see this in their inability to explain their concepts and their utter contempt in even being asked to further explain.

in case you missed the problem with your apartheid argument, its that apparently its used by many in many variations. In fact it appears the NAACP disagrees with your definition, your "legalese". are they too "blithers"

In the interest of communication, perhaps you would like to explain how the NAACP with their reaction to the apartheid in New Haven is wrong ?

or is that beneath you?

[King_David]

44. Hasbarah is a Hebrew word,

Hasbarist ? Is that Hebrew? Just not sure what it means...

[delrem]

45. If I had cared, I would have guessed that you, King_David, would be stumped by my usage.

But I didn't care then and I don't care now, just as I don't care about any of the idiotic pretenses of other hasbarists, King_David.

In fact I think hasbarists should take a time out to reconsider your objectives, since pretense is the only thing you have going - and that doesn't bode well. Just my opinion, of course - and I doubt you understand *that*, either.

I don't expect to *communicate* with any hasbarist, King_David. I've given enough time to I/P to know that hasbara isn't about *communication* or any attempt to discuss or debate in terms of a common understanding. Quite the opposite, in fact.

At DU I/P I learn from those who aren't hasbara's voice. That's a wide range of study and opinion, in every case parts of which don't overlap others. But that's the nature of free speech in a free speech zone, and it's the nature of democracy. In contrast what I learn from hasbara is always this same thing, identical among hasbarists -- and that thing is how a certain cowardly and deceitful voice of political propaganda trying to paper over criminal acts cannot, upon pain of conviction, admit to the official and systemic and constitutional nature of the criminal act being engaged in.

[shira]

61. delrem, the pretense is all yours. Look @ how your fellow slanderers criticize Israeli policy....

In a thread from last month, it was argued Israel isn't apartheid. Your fellow anti-Israel brigadeers and comrades all leapt on board to argue that apartheid is going on IN THE TERRITORIES, not in Israel.

Here's Shaayecanaan:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=46906

Here's ChairmanAgnostic:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=46859

FarrenH:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=46861

You guys can't even agree with each other.

On this current thread you'll argue apartheid is in Israel. When you're proven wrong and humiliated, you'll pop up again in another thread (like the one mentioned from last month) and claim it's in the W.Bank. Back-and-forth.

Demonization.

Smoke-and-mirrors.

You're a poser whose views on I/P are identical to those of human rights activists like David Duke, Pat Buchanan, and Gadaffi.

[King_David]

76. Your right...I have absolutely no idea what you meant in this ramble,

Can you try again ?

[delrem]

77. "Explain" the vivisection of hasbara to a hasbarist?

Hell no - I submit hasbarist responses as proof of my contentions.
for your input!

[shira]

94. delrem, as a Canadian are you disappointed w/ America's Democrats in Congress & the Senate?

Not one of them agrees with your Israel is racist/apartheid viewpoint.

Why do you think that is?

Do you see our Democrats being just as racist and bigoted against Palestinians as some of your Parliamentary representatives are against the First Nations there?

Just curious.

It must be very frustrating for you to post in an American Democratic forum when none of our representatives see things in I/P as you do.

[King_David]

33. I read about Israel being an apartheid state

Last edited Fri Oct 4, 2013, 10:24 PM - Edit history (1)

On many websites that can not be linked to here on DU... Filthy right wing sites..

Horrible nasty hate sites.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

37. Why are you mumbling about sites I haven't linked to?

[King_David]

39. Those sites referencing Israel as an "apartheid " state

Are in the main banned from being referenced on DU ... Nasty right wing bigoted sites in the main ... So my advice is they best not linked up.

[delrem]

46. And, on cue, King_David responds by totally ignoring the question.

You call that "communication" King_David. Or just another brain-dead technique of hasbara....?

[King_David]

47. There was a question?

How does one 'mumble' when typing text?

[delrem]

48. GOOD MORNING,,,, HASBARA!

You guys are perfect.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

66. And I didn't mention anything about those sites so why are you still mumbling in the corner?

[King_David]

75. I agree if the thread wasn't so hateful and biased it would be humorous

Agree with you 100%

[Israeli]

58. shalom again R. Daneel Olivaw....

you might not have noticed but there is a follow up to your original post :

What can we learn from the Israel apartheid analogy?

http://972mag.com/what-can-we-learn-from-the-israel-apartheid-analogy/79971/

another from Ran Greenstein :

http://www.israeli-occupation.org/2011-11-20/ran-greenstein-how-to-fight-the-israel-apartheid-analogy-in-four-easy-steps-a-guide-for-useful-hasbara-idiots/

step three should make you smile

And in general " Israel and the apartheid analogy " , see :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy

scroll down and see how many Israelis have used the term ......

of course when it comes to American Zionists ...our opinions are of no account .

[pelsar]

59. on the contrary....

us american-israeli zionists welcome your opinions, as well as your participation in our vibrant liberal western democracy. We believe you post, non-zionists who vote for zionist parties can play a integral part of a tolerant society.

you should learn to celebrate the wide variety of israelis that have origins from so many countries from all over the world, that work in so many different professions, with different ideologies and learn not to prejudge them, bigotry and prejudgements,is not part of the israel that many of us american/russian/ethiopian/non jewish-zionists would like to progress to.

[shira]

74. Funny how our friend Israeli votes for a Zionist political party like Meretz

Must be difficult for her trying to be accepted by fellow Israel bashing leftists here who believe Meretz (being Zionist) is racist at its core.

[Israeli]

78. Funny how 'apartheid' seems to be the hardest word ......

http://972mag.com/when-apartheid-seems-to-be-the-hardest-word/56959/

Today, usage of “apartheid,” to me, feels exactly the same as it did back then. It’s a word people hate to use. Refuse to use! Yet they know that there is an element, if not more, of truth to it. Even Ehud Barak knows that.

I wonder, how much longer before all of us accept it? How many more years of suffering will Palestinians endure before we get it? How many more Palestinian and Israeli lives will perish?

Just how long does it take for the hardest word to sink in?

[delrem]

79. Here's a tiny bit of how I understand the legal concept 'apartheid' w.r.t. I/P

1. The term recognizes that at this time there aren't "two states", but only one state with one set of determining, defining laws and judgments.
2. The term recognizes that this one fully defined state holds a whole other people under military, economic, social and geographical occupation.
3. The term recognizes that the distinguished population are Hebrews, or Jewish, and that the current Israeli admin requires that those it deals with recognize the righteousness of the fact that Israel is a Jewish State.
4. The term recognizes that this demand is written down in the basic laws and high court decisions that define Israel to be a Jewish State, in fact a Jewish State where a Jewish demographic majority is guaranteed.

There's no road from an apartheid way of thinking to any kind of "solution", and that's why apartheid is deplored in international legalese.

[pelsar]

80. and your understanding ...is just yours..based on your own world view

but you get 2 points for clearly admitting that it is your own understanding of the concept.

how I understand the legal concept 'apartheid'

Apparently you have defined your version to "fit" the israeli/palestenians conflict- a very convent definition for your own world view.

But, it seems the NAACP disagrees with your legal version and have their own.

Others in Canada, also disagree with your definition have have defined Apartheid to apply to the way canada treats its First Nation people as they suffer in places like Attawapiskat, Davis Inlet.

I could go on as the "legal" definition of Apartheid apparently is a very flexible definition, rendering the actual word useless in any legal sense. (unless of course you would like to declare the NAACPs version null and void as if their lawyers dont have any idea of what it really means....would you like to?

or option 2 is take the OPs definition..which is so general that it makes a lemonade stand on a suburban sidewalk an example of apartheid.

[delrem]

85. "Apparently you have defined your version to "fit" the israeli/palestenians conflict"

Comprehension problems again, pelsar?
try to get your mind around "how I understand the legal concept 'apartheid' w.r.t. I/P".
No attempt at a definition, there.

Here, from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_of_apartheid
"The crime of Apartheid is defined by the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime."
On November 30, 1973, the United Nations General Assembly opened for signature and ratification the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid.[1] It defined the crime of apartheid as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them.""

Now don't get too excited about the term 'race', OK? Just substitute Israel's unique use of the term 'national', then go back to blithering away the days.

[pelsar]

87. I substituted "cookie monster"

Just substitute Israel's unique use of the term 'national'

same thing..your taking a definition and then redefining the words used to get the result you wanted.

but as i wrote on another post, to get to what you want, you have decided that the israeli arabs and Palestinians arabs belong to "different races."

thats a pretty good decision....i assume you are white, live in a western country with a history of colonialism, and have accepted your burden as the "great white man' who knows better than the locals who and what they are.

[delrem]

88. You have an aversion toward reading, haven't you pelsar?

That would explain how an adult still doesn't know the difference between a definition and an application of the concept defined. And it would explain your response, above, which shows that you have zero comprehension of the explanation given at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_of_apartheid

It also explains your continuous blithering.

[pelsar]

89. actually i read a lot....but

i definitely have a comprehension problem when it comes to the assumptions and intolerant attitudes found with in the moral superiority and religious type attitudes that are expressed by the extremists and fanatics. (you fit)

I also noticed, that you'll spend more time attempting to insult me, repeating the same links as if that means something rather than attempting to justify your racist attitude.

apparently your moral superiority over the locals in the conflict is so overwhelming that you dont even have to discuss this attitude...you simply "know"

(you would so fit in the 17-1800's)
_____

where was that post of yours where you wrote about how some posters wont even approach certain subjects?...

[delrem]

90. Don't lay your inferiority complex on me, whiner. nt

[shira]

92. delrem, do you believe Israeli Arabs and Palestinian Arabs are 2 diff. races? n/t

[pelsar]

95. wow..now a "whiner"....is that another insult?

are we back to the 5th grade?....i thought bully attempts were suppose to be "no no" in the progressive world?.

i hate to break it to you but this is an internet forum in cyber space, its doesn't really exist in real life and since you are reacting emotionally to my posts, i really and seriously suggest you talk to somebody, a professional.

Maybe you should get out more? go and visit gaza, via the sinai, it should be fun being smuggled in by the Bedouin (fair warning, you might get robbed, raped and shot), either way it might put things into perspective for you.

[King_David]

96. Whiner and not hasbarist?

Or apartheid hasbarist.

Go eaSy on the guy ...it's not easy being a leader of the Palistinians if you a white guy living in Canada's and have never been to Gaza,West Bank or even Israel .

( Bathurst street or Thornhill doesn't count)

[delrem]

97. IMO your fixation on skin color is unhealthy. nt

[King_David]

103. I'm Jewish

There is no skin color...gay Jew,....minority minority,....u?

[delrem]

104. You: "..if you a white guy living in Canada.."

You: a man of bad faith.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

109. Thread win.

[pelsar]

111. i cant resist..."thread win"?

omg.....RDO..consider this some advice from one human to another....leave the computer, smash if you have to, get out, travel, dont take any money, be a volunteer in patagonia, join the peace corp, go to turkey sneak in to syria and join the freedom fighters of your choice... get dirty, be exposed to the elements, break some bones, be without water in the desert, get shot at....go to gaza and scream fuk hamas (have a sign)

you cleary are confused between what is real and what is a cyber environment. There is nothing to win or lose here its nothing more than mind exercises and if one wants, education.... but you seriously need some real life experiences

[oberliner]

112. FYI: R. Daneel Olivaw is the name of a robot

In fact the R stands for Robot.

[pelsar]

113. just looked it up....

i only read a few of Asimovs books....long time ago in college

[delrem]

101. Read thru' the responses to my #79

None of them will "go there" to discuss the matter.
I say that's emblematic of hasbara in 2013-10-06 I/P, and that hasbara in I/P follows an extremely right-wing model that isn't oriented toward communication and mutual peaceful interaction.

IMO extreme hasbara after an extreme right-wing model can't possibly be the only hasbara, and I look elsewhere for a positive model.

King_David thinks I shouldn't use the term 'hasbara', since the term is Hebrew in origin and meaning.
This in disregard of the fact that
http://www.hasbara.com/
and
http://www.hasbarafellowships.org/
are written in English.

King_David suggests that because I'm "white skinned" my motives in speaking about Palestinians are somehow disgraceful.

That's one of the most *sensible* responses I've gotten from an extreme right-wing hasbarist. Much beyond that doesn't happen.

On the other hand if hasbara is to promote both an intelligible and positive image of Israel, your own approach succeeds.

It isn't a mere matter of attitude, it's a matter of communication vs an unwillingness to communicate.

E.g., some on the hard-right in I/P have already concluded, from your communications, that you would be *betrayed* by anyone not hard-right in attitude toward I/P that you attempted to communicate with.

[shira]

105. The entire US Democratic Party must be extreme, hard rightwing supporters of apartheid....

....since they don't buy your Israel apartheid arguments. Our Progressive/Liberal POTUS doesn't buy it either.

So why are you hanging out @ a rightwing US Dem forum?

I'd imagine you see this as the equivalent of your progressive/liberal representatives from Canada denying past apartheid crimes (as well as ongoing Canadian apartheid) vs. the First Nations.

[Israeli]

106. maybe an explanation of the word “Hasbara” would help ....

try here delrem :

http://972mag.com/hasbara-why-does-the-world-fail-to-understand-us/27551/

There is an interesting tension in Israel between the tremendous efforts put into Hasbara – Israeli advocacy is probably the most widespread and ambitious state-run propaganda effort in the world today – and a sense of “Hasbara failure” in the Israeli public. Rants about the fact that Israel is misunderstood and complaints about the incompetence of those dealing with Hasbara are often heard in the popular media. In my opinion, “the failure of Hasbara” is actually a failure of policy – especially, but not limited to, that relating to the occupation and the control over the Palestinians.

Understanding this point could shed light on a self-defeating element in the Hasbara battle: as Israel loses interest in finding a solution to the Palestinian question that would meet the minimal moral standards of the Western World – either “one man one vote” or complete Palestinian sovereignty over a contiguous territorial unit – Hasbara efforts are just likely to draw more attention to the ongoing Israeli failure to live up to the promise of its talking points, and will shed more light on the ever-growing gap between the model, picture-perfect democracy reflected in brochures and the grim reality on the ground.

[pelsar]

107. or...we dont like lying down and getting "run over'

the idea that accusations: (aids laced chewing gum, Palestenians shot down so we can steal their organs, nice white diplomates yanked out of their trucks....) should not be challenged is the absurd.

Palestenians children killed for their blood, Palestinians in Gaza literally starving to death, 6,000 rockets fired on Southern Israel doesnt really mean anything

call if what you like, hasbara, only at 972 and other far right and far left places would one believe that its fine to teach the world that israel is racist, Christian, muslim blood drinking, state that has no parallel in the history of mankind and that it is the core of all of the middle eastern conflicts if not the worlds.

[King_David]

114. I said no such thing Mr

I did ask if the word YOU use "Hasbarist" was an English or Hebrew word because I don't recognize it,I know fully well what the word hasbara is and means in Hebrew you use some other word...Mr.


As for the rest of your post it's pure nonsense....

Right Wing ?

My views on Israel are in complete sync with my party...the Democratic Party of the United States ...are you calling them right wing????

The majority of white supremacists in the USA such as David Duke very energetically spout the "Israel is Apartheid" nonsense and you can't get more right wing than that!

[azurnoir]

120. and even if it does??????

how long before it's admitted to?

[Israeli]

125. by whom ?

as shira points out there are few amongst the American Democrat leadership who are willing or able to face facts .

fact is , there is Apartheid.

route 443 is classic :

see ...

http://tv.social.org.il/en/apartheid-hw-443

then read this azurnoir :

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/10/07/road-443-more-evidence-of-a-long-deception.html

"Sunlight is… the best of disinfectants," as Louis Brandeis famously said. The primary responsibility for shedding light on any government's deceptions rests on its own citizens. But in this case, Israel's friends can help out greatly. That, for instance, is why the recent European Union economic sanctions on settlements are so important to Israel's domestic debate: They insistently draw a distinction between Israel and occupied territory. That's also the distinction between normalcy and a ride home on Road 443.

[King_David]

62. Ran Greenstein again?

The "expert "that doesn't live in Israel but was born there ? Ha ha

[King_David]

63. Why on earth would it make anyone smile ?

Moozaar

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

84. Shalom Israeli. Thanks for the reading list. I will get back to you soon.

[shira]

60. Jimmy Carter disagrees.

"It doesn’t refer to Israel. I’ve never and would imply that Israel is guilty of any form of apartheid in their own country, because Arabs who live inside Israel have the same voting rights and the same citizenship rights as do the Jews who live there.

I know that Israel is a wonderful democracy with equal treatment of all citizens whether Arab or Jew. And so I very carefully avoided talking about anything inside Israel."

-Jimmy Carter

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

67. Your level of deception has increased I see.

From the OP

The Israeli regime is based on an ethnic/religious distinction between Jewish insiders and Palestinian outsiders. It expands citizenship beyond its territory, potentially to all Jews regardless of their links to the country, and contracts citizenship within it: Palestinians in the occupied territories and refugees outside have no citizenship and cannot become Israeli citizens.

President Carter, when talking about Apartheid specifically mentions conditions in Palestine as imposed on them by the Israelis.


Nice try at deception on your part, though.

[shira]

72. You propagandists can't keep your story straight

Last edited Sat Oct 5, 2013, 06:16 PM - Edit history (1)

Is it apartheid within Israel, only in the territories, or both?

Does it depend on the day of the week, the mood you're in, or who you're able to fool on certain days with your bullshit?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

81. You like to regurgitate a lot when your back is against a wall.

I guess if that is your best distraction...?

Perhaps you need a

[shira]

93. You still believe 'Arab' is a derogatory, racist insult against non-Jews of the mideast? n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

100. Now let's get back to Israeli aparheid...

[King_David]

115. Your standard reply when you throw in the towel,

Cute