Poll Shows Major Shift in Identity of U.S. Jews

[bemildred]

The first major survey of American Jews in more than 10 years finds a significant rise in those who are not religious, marry outside the faith and are not raising their children Jewish — resulting in rapid assimilation that is sweeping through every branch of Judaism except the Orthodox.

The intermarriage rate, a bellwether statistic, has reached a high of 58 percent for all Jews, and 71 percent for non-Orthodox Jews — a huge change from before 1970 when only 17 percent of Jews married outside the faith. Two-thirds of Jews do not belong to a synagogue, one-fourth do not believe in God and one-third had a Christmas tree in their home last year.

“It’s a very grim portrait of the health of the American Jewish population in terms of their Jewish identification,” said Jack Wertheimer, a professor of American Jewish history at the Jewish Theological Seminary, in New York.

The survey, by the Pew Research Center’s Religion & Public Life Project, found that despite the declines in religious identity and participation, American Jews say they are proud to be Jewish and have a “strong sense of belonging to the Jewish people.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/01/us/poll-shows-major-shift-in-identity-of-us-jews.html?_r=0

[oberliner]

1. Why post this here rather than the Jewish Religion group?

Just curious - that group could use some more posting!

[bemildred]

2. I'm not in the Jewish Religion group?

Feel free to post it there if you like, it does seem relevant to both.

[King_David]

37. It's ok in this group

Most regional Jewish Newspapers don't differentiate between IP and Jewish affairs and not do the enemies of the Jews ( neo Nazis etc) and nor do the enemies of Israel ( Hamas etc ) and nor do the vast majority of Zionists and Jews and in effect nor do the Natura Karta turds.

Myself I see no problem posting it here.

[bemildred]

38. Please see post #34. nt

[bemildred]

5. And props for the irony if it was intended. nt

[oberliner]

6. Thanks - that was the idea

Guess I could've done a better job.

[bemildred]

7. No no, that was perfect.

When done right, it takes a while to dawn on them, like with me there. It's true I'm not annoyed about it, but the double take was perfect.

[shaayecanaan]

33. I dont get it (nt)

[bemildred]

34. Poll shows major shift away from religion; question: why didn't I post in religion discussion group?

I explain I'm not in religion discussion group ..
Oh, that's the subject of the OP.
Heh heh.

Yes there are people so sick inside as to find this sort of thing amusing.

[delrem]

42. Perhaps because

The "Israel" in "I/P" is defined to be a Jewish state.

It isn't *us* who introduced this ethnic/racial/religious distinction. It is the founders of Israel, and the continuing gov't and Knesset decisions, which defined and continue to define Israel as specifically "Jewish".

[oberliner]

43. Good point

Thanks for making it.

[DetlefK]

3. Is "jewish by culture" the same as "jewish by religion"?

Many christians follow their religious laws only to the slightest degrees but enthusiastically practice christian traditions.

EDIT: Oops, should have read article first.

[leveymg]

4. Here's the kicker: only 40% believe Israel was given by G-d, 17% support the settlements

While 69 percent say they feel an emotional attachment to Israel, and 40 percent believe that the land that is now Israel was “given to the Jewish people by God,” only 17 percent think that the continued building of settlements in the West Bank is helpful to Israel’s security.

Before they launch another war, the cousins should take note.

[rgbecker]

8. Proof: Christmas tree winning war on Christmas! n/t

[Laelth]

9. Interesting. k&r n/t

-Laelth

[oberliner]

10. Interestingly, the most religious are the youngest and have the largest families

Similar situation in Israel as well.

And the is a real animosity at times between the religious Jews and the non-observant/secular ones.

The Orthodox Jews really have more in common with fundamentalist Christians than with their non-observant fellow Jews, other than perhaps genetically (check out 23andme's findings with respect to the Ashkenazim in that regard).

In any case, this does beg the question of what it means to be Jew - especially when such a large group of those who do define themselves as Jewish are atheist or not religious.

[bemildred]

11. Old people don't tend to start large families.

So if they are old with no/small families, they decided that while young. Just saying I doubt that stat means much.

And yes, I think in these unfaithful times, it would be no surprise to see the faithful of all stripes make common cause against the skeptics, it would not be the first time.

I think one can say there is disagreement about what it means to be a Jew, but that has been there for a long time.

[oberliner]

12. Was that meant to be funny?

If so, ha ha. Otherwise, it was not my contention that old people are going to start large families. My point was that among young people, the percentage of Orthodox is the highest, and they tend to start large families. Thus, the percentage of Orthodox will most likely continue to grow. If the percentage of Orthodox was highest among older folks and low among 18-25ers then I would argue that the group would shrink instead. Thus, I believe in another few generations will we have an increasingly higher percentage of observant Jews as the secular ones have smaller families generally speaking. Doesn't that make sense?

[bemildred]

13. It depends.

It is true that a segment of the population with a higher reproductive rate will tend to grow as a portion of that population, it does not follow that all their kids will be just like Mom and Dad, that may change when they become adults in some future world we cannot see. There are contrary trends at work, and it's not clear which one wins over time. What is clear is that the trend has been towards secularism and assimilation.

The Arabs reproduce like mad too, nobody thinks they will win their future arguments because of the extra kids.

[oberliner]

14. "nobody thinks they will win their future arguments because of the extra kids..."

Except for the current leadership of Israel which is pretty well consumed with this precise concern.

[bemildred]

15. Right, both sides are doing that. "Combat reproduction" is what Emanuel Todd called it.

But they are both assuming that those kids are going to be on their side in twenty years, the same argument, same sides, and I doubt that. Maybe those kids won't want to be cannon fodder for this dispute by then? Isn't that already what's happening? 1993 was a long time ago.

And that whole argument is based on the need to be democratic, or at least to give some appearance of it, hence to be the largest portion of the electorate so as to be legitimate in ones claims to be a democracy.

But nobody expects that that those extra kids will win any wars by virtue of the extra troops they will become. That's the point I want to make, this is about politics, not war.

Iran has a much bigger population, but their reproductive rate is coming down to modern norms, so they will not get much bigger, may get smaller over time.

[oberliner]

16. I'd love to see a similar survey of American Muslims

Do you know if something like that exists?

(Meaning a survey like the one highlighted in your OP)

[bemildred]

17. I dunno, but that would be interesting.

I would expect them to be similar, but that's the sort of thing where I would expect to be wrong too. I'm not sure if anybody has thought of asking them those questions yet. The muslims I've known were mostly working in hi-tech, and are not likely to be representative of muslims in general. Modernism tends to atomize society, it should do that to muslims too, but does it? I'll bet they have their own ways of dealing with it.

[shaayecanaan]

20. "The muslims I've known were mostly working in hi-tech"

Actually, thats pretty representative, at least of Arab Muslims. If you are unwilling to marry some fat slovenly sleaze on an internet website in order to obtain a visa (and if you're an Arab Muslim woman you probably aren't) then your only chance at an American visa is in the H category.

Ergo, you need at least a doctrate level of education, and very sound employment prospects. Mostly rich Saudi playboys, and likewise from the other gulf countries.

I know that there are Pakistani taxi drivers, etc, in the US. No idea how they got there, although I would presume that they either obtained humanitarian visas or were able to marry into the Pakistani community in America.

[bemildred]

23. Syrian, Palestinian, Pakistani, Persian, others more distantly.

Not from the slums no, though one was a hardship/asylum sort of thing, I think. If fact only one I'm sure was not, the Pakistani. Very nice people, and sharp. Never met a Saudi.

[Shaktimaan]

39. In New York,

Something like 97% of cabbies are either Pakistani or Bangladeshi. None of these people are Arab, obviously. I'd assume they came here like everyone else... They applied for a visa and got lucky. One thing I know, the men arrive single and then work to bring over either their wife or family or an arranged bride. They don't come via marriage to a woman who's already here.

[bemildred]

44. Immigrants tend to cluster for security, when they assimilate they also disperse.

When you are not different or ignorant of the local rules any more, you are also more secure about being out and about and associating with "outsiders" or "foreigners".

We have many such immigrant clusters here in CA too, old and new, they like franchise operations these days, but i don't think that tells you much about them.

[shaayecanaan]

19. Something like this:-

http://www.pewresearch.org/2007/05/22/muslim-americans-middle-class-and-mostly-mainstream/

Basically:-

Muslim intermarriage is generally quite high, around 46%. Most Muslims also regard it as acceptable, about 62%.

South Asian (ie Pakistani and Bangladeshi, etc) tend to hold quite moderate views, as do Malay and Indonesian Muslims. These, together with African-American Muslims, are the largest Muslim populations in the US.

Turkish Muslims in America tend to be very secular, no surprise there, except perhaps for the right-wing Jews on this particular forum who continue to believe that Turkey is a sharia state.

Arab Muslims in America tend to be more conservative and have substantially lesser rates of intermarriage - again no surprise there.

[oberliner]

21. Fascinating

Interesting to see how different the populations are in the US and the UK in terms of some of these questions.

[shaayecanaan]

22. The war of the wombs, I have heard it called...

One of the ironies of demographic wars is the shittier you treat people, the more they breed. During the 1950s and 1960s, Israel confiscated the land of Arabs and relegated them to townships. Until 1966 Arabs were under military administration and could barely move without first obtaining a ticket of leave.

The result was a whole community with nothing to do except sit at home and shag the missus. Fertility rates soared.

Israel attempted to ban polygamy to stymie the growth, although it remains prevalent particularly amongst the Bedouin. Eventually, they figured out that the best way to limit fertility is to employ the women. Hence about half of new bus drivers in the Arab communities are female.

Very "progressive" of Israel in a way, although the motivations are not quite so much.

[bemildred]

24. Don't get me started.

Folly in all its facets. Demographic meddling of that sort. One hardly knows where to start in on it. But politicians are (almost) always driven by fear and short-term consequences. So they are especially bad at it.

[Shaktimaan]

40. This is a common refrain all over.

Remember when Gandhi imposed forced sterilization of the Dalits in the slums? (Indira, not Mohandes, obvs.)

[inch4progress]

18. As I far I know this isn't a new thing................................

“It’s a very grim portrait of the health of the American Jewish population in terms of their Jewish identification,” said Jack Wertheimer, a professor of American Jewish history at the Jewish Theological Seminary, in New York.

This is bigoted nonsense. I believe the abandonment of "fantasy" and the adoption of rationality should be considered a great shift rather than a "grim portrait".

[bemildred]

25. I think it's what should be expected, nothing abnormal about assimilation, it can happen.

Especially easy if the assimilating population feels welcome.

[Shaktimaan]

36. So

Identification with Jewish culture is somehow related to refusing rationality in favor of fantasy?

Are you sure you know what bigoted means dude?

[Scurrilous]

26. Jews Express Wide Criticism of Israel in Pew Survey But Leaders Dismiss Findings

Establishment Sticks to Guns Even as Consensus Frays

<snip>

"American Jews are far more critical of Israel than the Jewish establishment, according to the new Pew survey, but Jewish leaders say the findings won’t change their positions.

Officials with leading Jewish organizations told the Forward that the 38% of American Jews who Pew says think the Israeli government isn’t making a “sincere effort” to come to a peace deal are either uninformed, unengaged, or wrong. They also asserted that those respondents don’t represent their constituency.

“You know who the Jewish establishment represents? Those who care,” said Abraham Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League. “This is a poll of everybody. Some care, some don’t care.”

“I think it’s interesting, we need to be aware,” he said. “But I’m not going to follow this.”

Pew’s Portrait of Jewish Americans, based on interviews with 3,500 Jews in all 50 states, found that most Jews feel attached to Israel. But it also found high levels of skepticism of the Israeli government and high levels of opposition to the continued construction of settlements in the West Bank."

Read more: http://forward.com/articles/184900/jews-express-wide-criticism-of-israel-in-pew-surve/#ixzz2gaSNglBn

[shaayecanaan]

32. Interesting article, it puts things in perspective...

sounds like at least 38% of Jewish Americans are pretty reasonable types. You can lose sight of that on boards such as this one.

[Israeli]

35. agreed ...

but ...when the crunch comes to the crunch ....it all depends whether you eat bacon or not :

http://www.israellycool.com/2013/10/01/amused-to-death-the-american-jewish-demographic-bomb/

sounds like at least 38% of Jewish Americans are pretty reasonable types

BTW ... I had the same thoughts when reading this today :

http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=61296

[Shaktimaan]

41. Really?

It seems obvious to me they aren't making a sincere effort. That doesn't mean I'm going to agree with all the wild anti-Zionist prop some people post here.

[azurnoir]

27. assimilation is the natural result of social progress

ethnic/racial purity, such as it is comes from isolation and segregation whether enforced from within or without, that's simply the way of the world and human nature

[Mosby]

28. so diversity is bad?

And people who care about Latino culture for example are preventing social progress?

Are you a Marxist or something?

[azurnoir]

29. one can intermarry and still honor the 'cultural' background(s) they come from

trust me it's possible, even in today's world

[shaayecanaan]

30. Are you an advocate of racial purity?

You think that people should only marry their own kind?

[shaayecanaan]

31. It was always a fraud to begin with...

races are social constructs rather than biological. We think of Huns, Visigoths, Celts, Jews, etc, as organic concepts, whereas they are simply inventions pulled out of peoples' arses.

If you want to see how "races" begin, walk outside to the street and see all the youth sub-cultures (the punks, the goths, the homies, the hipsters). All affecting a different appearance, mannerisms, and language. Thats how it starts, although obviously in this modern age there isn't really the chance to advance things much beyond that.

[Shaktimaan]

45. That's absurd.

Race has components of both. Are you really trying to tell me that no physiological differences exist between humans from disparate geographical areas? Asian people don't have epicanthic folds? Southern African people do not have darker skin than most Scandinavians? Of course there's biological differences, that's obvious.

And cliques did not grow into different races. People evolving in different geographical climates created the physical differences we see, and then attribute far greater meaning to, which is what I think you mean.

But black people are more prone to sickle cell anemia. And I'm more prone to karposi sarcoma. That's biology.