Israel/Palestine
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Israeli forces manhandle EU diplomats, seize West Bank aid
Source: Reuters
By Noah Browning
KHIRBET AL-MAKHUL, West Bank | Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:01am EDT
(Reuters) - Israeli soldiers manhandled European diplomats on Friday and seized a truck full of tents and emergency aid they had been trying to deliver to Palestinians whose homes were demolished this week.
A Reuters reporter saw soldiers throw sound grenades at a group of diplomats, aid workers and locals in the occupied West Bank, and yank a French diplomat out of the truck before driving away with its contents.
"They dragged me out of the truck and forced me to the ground with no regard for my diplomatic immunity," French diplomat Marion Castaing said.
"This is how international law is being respected here," she said, covered with dust.
[font size=1]-snip-[/font]
Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/20/us-palestinians-israel-eu-hamlet-idUSBRE98J0GK20130920
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delrem
(9,688 posts)It seems to me that Israel's problem isn't with the EU diplomats, but with the West Bank citizens who are resisting being evicted from lands that they've tended for millenniums.
Hopefully those EU diplomats remember and pass on their new found wisdom, which gives some kind of a hint about what kind of hell West Bank citizens are suffering through under their totally alien and alienating occupation.
gopiscrap
(23,762 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)My objection is to how the US delegates this $ to be spent.
The US's crazy ass militarism.
What forces it to be that way?
Why can't the same $$ be spent instead on peacemaking and peacekeeping activity.
For example, a cooperative (non-racially_divisive) farm and market regime so that even poverty stricken Bedouin are accorded their rights.
Isn't that fucking obvious to... anybody?
It seems to me that the $$ the US spends on oiling Israel's wheels, also oils the MIC in a parasitic fashion, and contributes to heightened military tension throughout the region but does not address any peacemaking or peacekeeping issue.
If that's the rule, then it'll be the same situation w.r.t. Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and other declared Middle Eastern allies.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Lots of new information (and video) seems to be emerging on this one.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and distract but do keep trying now
Mosby
(16,332 posts)Last edited Mon Sep 23, 2013, 09:50 PM - Edit history (1)
In the US she would have been tazed or shot or both.
and the so called "humanitarian aid" was building supplies.
That diplomat is in serious trouble.
shira
(30,109 posts)...idf troops? Any at all?
Right. Pallywood.
Diplomats aren't supposed to challenge a host nation's authority. Not even in the shittiest corners of North Korea. She refused to get out of her truck, was never "manhandled", and was seen grinning after this "terrible" ordeal just mere minutes afterwards. Another shitty pallywood production. They don't even try anymore with the footage as they know the media will eat it up, ignore the provocation (punching). Mission accomplished based on fauxtography and lies by omission.
You're also wasting your time with azurnoir, who I'm sure doesn't see a damned thing wrong in that video footage and never will...
Oh, and just in case ANYONE here thinks this French Diplomat is a humanitarian, where is her concern when her home nation is busy evicting thousands of Roma? Has she ever delivered supplies to the the gypsies or does she just love Palestinians but hate Roma for some reason?
http://www.thelocal.fr/20130206/french-socialists-accelerate-roma-gypsy-evictions
She's just another imposter POS hater using the Palestinians as her pets to get to the Jews.
Mosby
(16,332 posts)That diplomat reminds me of the blond Palestinian girl who tried and failed to provoke IDF soldiers.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)lol took 3 days for bit to be made eh? Last I heard it was all because of those 'nasty' Palestinians who threw stones and stuff
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That much I can write with confidence!
Israeli
(4,157 posts)Its all over the Right wing English blogs azurnoir ,
see one example :
http://www.israellycool.com/2013/09/22/french-diplomat-marion-castaing-latest-pallywood-star/
King_David
(14,851 posts)Ha ha ha ...
Was a Hollywood production?
What's the inside scoop from the Past-Zionists?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)What would be great is if someone who wasn't on either "wing" could just accurately report the truth of the story without any agenda.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)is that your story?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Just not sure about the "manhandling" part.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)So let's applaud the Israeli Offense Forces for doing what they do best: humiliate and destroy a people.
shira
(30,109 posts)It's all about demonizing Israel, not about Palestinian lives.
Your humanitarian friends couldn't care less about Palestinians in Gaza under Hamas, or in Jordan, Syria or Lebanon either. That's why we never see them doing the humane thing there for the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in dire consequences there. Hell, I doubt your friends are even aware of the dire consequences Palestinians are in all around the mideast. Even if they do, they don't care. That much is certain.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and wht do you call humanitarian WRT Gaza? Dental care, food aid bringing in sup[plies denied them by Israel? you've demonized all of that, in fact your entire spiel here is based on those that support a Palestinian State do so only because they hate Israel and in your mind that equates to Jews apparently the only Israeli's that matter to you, it's a weak argument at best
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)But please proceed, Shira.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)it's almost amusing that we're only supposed to pay attention to a couple of seconds and ignore the rest though
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Do you have a link to the full video?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)interesting huh?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)at gunpoint but it's presstv so don't believe our lying eyes right-Karsenty would be so proud
eyl
(2,499 posts)doesn't actually show her being "yanked" from the truck.
" target="_blank">This video* gives a longer continuous shot of the incident. She leaves the truck at about 6:05. I can't say for certain, as there are a number of people in the way, but when she exits the truck it doesn't seem like any soldier is touching her. Afterwards, it looks more like the soldiers are trying to pull her up rather than to throw her to the ground. Also, as she's lying on the ground there are at least two cases where soldiers offer her a hand up, which she apparently declines (see 6:50).
*Sorry, I haven't been abl to get links to embed properly for some reason
pelsar
(12,283 posts)Last edited Fri Sep 27, 2013, 03:47 AM - Edit history (2)
at 6:50 the soldiers hand is open reaching down to her
_____
this stuff is made for azurnoir its not about any real factual information, or the full story its about an agenda and a belief, where anything goes as long as it can be made to support that belief. Any event that doesn't support it, is to be ignored. Events that may infact show the opposite of this belief (all israeli soldiers must be evil, mean, non-humane), are to be ignored as it may ruin the general story line).
the "diplomat" wanted to create an incident, it was pretty pathetic, but for those like azumoir, its good enough to show just how evil those soldiers can be, imagine offering an open hand to get her off the ground. I guess the better alternative according to azumoir would have been to leave her there. (then he could be accused of setting her up to be run over by a jeep or something.)
shira
(30,109 posts)Israeli
(4,157 posts)someone that does not agree with your politics or your believes ?
Here is our take on the situation .... take it or leave it shira :
http://adam-keller2.blogspot.co.il/
It was Gideon Levy, who specializes in casting light on dark places, who arrived on the scene first and met the people who were left homeless and destitute. Levy wrote an extensive report for the Sukkot holiday issue of "Haaretz." The Red Cross arrived and gave tents - but the army returned two days later and confiscated the tents, too. No big news.
Then occurred the incident which made headlines - diplomats from the European Union and France , the UK , Ireland , Spain and Australia all got directly involved, more directly than was the habit on similar cases in the past. They went to Khirbet Makhoul with a new shipment of tents and emergency supplies, and the troops received them with volleys of concussion grenades - which is the long-established army reaction to foreign busybodies from Human Rights organizations . The tents were confiscated by the soldiers, and Reuters flashed worldwide the image of Marion Castaing, Cultural Attaché at the French consulate in East Jerusalem, lying on the ground with a soldier pointing his gun at her.
Probably the soldiers did not know that this was an official representative of the government of France and that they were violating the Vienna Convention which requires states to respect the diplomatic immunity of foreign representatives. The French government filed a protest, as did the European Union. Israeli government officials were far from ready to apologize, but rather threatened to expel Castaing: "The role of diplomats is to build bridges and not to make provocations." However, the French Consulate in East Jerusalem is not accredited to Israel, and serves essentially as the de-facto French Embassy to the future State of Palestine. It could be said that Ms. Castaing did fulfill quite effectively the role of building bridges with the Palestinians
pelsar
(12,283 posts)the soldiers gun was pointed down at his own feet as he was holding it,
....and soldiers holding weapons during any kind close up protest will have their guns "pointed" at somebody at sometime since the weapons are held by the soldiers and they move as do people move
________________
pathetic demonization of IDF soldiers doing their job in what appears to be a professional manner.....since the article made up the lie about that, how many more statements were false?
shira
(30,109 posts)And here she is quoting approvingly from articles that deliberately try to demonize the IDF (her kids too).
Israeli
(4,157 posts)where are they ?
sitting safe and secure next to mommy ?
in America ?
send them over to us shira ... we will take them , honor them ....and turn them into true Israelis .
Only ask one thing of you before you are ready to send some more sacrificial lambs to the slaughter of Greater Israel ....
get them to read this website first :
http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/
eyl
(2,499 posts)Which doesn't show anyone pointinga gun at her? Also, pleae cite where the French government issued a protest (the only response I remember is an EU demand for explanations. (BTW, if as you say the French consulate in Jerusalem is not accredited to Israel, does she even have diplomatic immunity as far as Israeli authorities are concerned?).
According to Haaretz, the Israeli and French governments reached an agreement that she'll leave her post at the end of the year rather than being declared PNG.
eyl
(2,499 posts)that while it doesn't void diplomatc immunity, the diplomats involved were (Caistign certainly was) in breach of the Vienna Convention themselves (specifically Article 41)
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)Article 41 relates to non-interference in a state's internal affairs.
I was under the impression that this incident took place in the West Bank.
eyl
(2,499 posts)To respect the laws of the receiving nation.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Is that your blog?
King_David
(14,851 posts)Or Interim-Zionist or Past-Zionist....I forget what the cult is called.
shira
(30,109 posts)...who stop at nothing to defame, demonize, and slime the Jewish state. Their hate for Israel and "Zionists" knows no bounds.
It's like a part-time job they do that they've made into an art form.
They get off on calling Zionists nazis and racists, just like rightwing jerks do when they bash their non-aryan targets who they're only "criticizing"...
King_David
(14,851 posts)Because you sure post a lot of his verbiage .
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)who would hav thunk it? 
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Response to shira (Reply #41)
shaayecanaan This message was self-deleted by its author.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shay's link from above and your idea of admirable scholarship well okay then
shira
(30,109 posts)...if they in any way disagree with your crackpot views.
That's not scholarship, sweetie.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)just another example of Landes's 'scholarship'
http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2012/11/05/if-you-cant-vote-for-romney-dont-vote-for-obama-an-open-letter-to-americans-of-all-faiths-and-skepticisms/
shira
(30,109 posts)There's a reason Landes admitted he was going into unchartered waters with his posting.
Here's Fizzik's website:
http://www.progressivezionist.com
I already know....they're all rightwingers over at the Progressive Zionist in your view. Sadly, we can't all be as cool, progressive, and leftwing as yourself.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)for the facts, not the opinions?
But please, do go ahead and tell us why Landes' crypto-birther political views have no bearing on his "scholarship"...
shira
(30,109 posts)Tell me, how do you distinguish between fact and fiction when you read a Hezbollah rag like al-Manure?
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)When you're paging through scholarly Kahanist dissertations and you find a cartoon of Obama portrayed as a chimp, there must be a little part of you that goes OH YES! OHHHHH YESSSS!
shira
(30,109 posts)Can you even name a Zionist who isn't rightwing and kahanist in your opinion?
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)the only person on this forum whom I regard as a Kahanist is you.
shira
(30,109 posts)..who believes all Zionists are rightwing racists, etc.
Why do you think I'm a Kahanist? I've condemned and trashed their vile ideology numerous times here.
==========
Better yet, what would I have to say or agree with in order to distance myself from Kahanists, in your opinion?
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)Repeat after me:-
"The occupied Palestinian territories properly belong to the Palestinian people. The construction of Israeli settlements on that land is neither legal nor moral."
shira
(30,109 posts)Shaktimaan should then be a Kahanist in your view:
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/113438#post35
He argued the Jews do have legal rights to be there, it's their historical homeland too, and that it is not exclusively Palestinian land.
So I'm hardly the only Kahanist here in your opinion, right?
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)"Selectively promoting the use of Depo Provera to Black women is a form of racism."
Try that one.
If you want the Balfour Declaration, then you have to have all of it, including the bit that says "Nothing shall be done to prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing people of Palestine", which is clearly meant to preserve the rights of the Palestinians.
I imagine that if I put that to Shakitmaan he would probably concede the point on that, as he is generally far more reasonable than you. However, if I put that point to you, you would generally cut and paste some section from a right-wing blog that attempted to essentially argue that Jews have a right to all of the land and that Arabs have no concrete right to any of it.
Which is essentially what Kahanism is, a maximalist form of Zionism.
shira
(30,109 posts)And I believe both Jews and Arabs have valid claims to W.Bank land.
Good luck trying to find me stating all W.Bank land is exclusively Jewish or Israeli. I've never once stated any such thing, as I don't believe it.
Yours is the maximalist position, as you tried getting me to believe (with you) that the Palestinians have exclusive rights to all W.Bank land - as Jews have none.
That's Kahanism in reverse; what Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, Iran, Syria, etc... all think.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)To what extent, then, is it Jewish or Israeli? 0%? 5%? 80%?
shira
(30,109 posts)Jews have been indigenous to the land for thousands of years. Judea/Samaria has historical, cultural, and religious significance to Jews.
I'm interested in why you believe Jews have zero rights to any land there.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)When it comes to the issue of withdrawing settlements, suddenly, Israelis become Jews, and withdrawal of settlements becomes ethnic cleansing against Jews.
On the other hand, when we discuss the issue of the settler-only roads in the West Bank, suddenly the Jews become Israelis again, and you feel compelled to point to the handful of Arabs that live in the settlements and that the settlements are not 100% Jewish.
So, are the settlers Israelis or Jews? You know you can't have it both ways.
shira
(30,109 posts)Maybe I've missed it, but do you and yours here voice any condemnation at any of Israel's Arabs? If so, who? AFAIK it's only Jews you target with your condemnation, not "Israelis". When I "conflate" it's in direct response to the issues you raise.
Your issue isn't with Arab settlers either; it's the Jewish ones (and you made it clear) who do not belong on the other side of the green line.
Settlers are Israelis, both Jews and Arabs. But again, you take no issue with Arab settlers, do you? If so, when have you ever done so here?
=============
Do you have a problem with these particular homes (settlements) Israel is building in the W.Bank?
http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Jlem-plans-for-1140-Palestinian-homes-near-Jericho-313093
Yes or No, and if Yes - why?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)they are for a very precious few Palestinian nationals who have been intentionally made homeless by Israel's settlement project(s)
Not to mention that the article which says it's a proposal is from last May, any info on the construction is progressing, a completion date? something???
also your insistence that we're targeting Jews here is misleading to say the least, it's almost like saying that being anti Mugabe and his supporters is targeting Blacks, the fact that Mugabe is Black is quite secondary to what he's done, much like the fact that Netanyahu etal are Jews is secondary to their politics and actions, your insistence on using Jews and Israeli's as interchangeable terms is inaccurate not to mention offensive as the subtext is implied antisemitism
This practice was forbidden on DU2 for that very reason and those who did it usually got their comments deleted
shira
(30,109 posts)...issues with? Name some. Remember, you also bring up ethnic supremacy here (code for Jewish - not Israeli - supremacy vs. Arabs).
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I know you think he's a credit to his people or something an admirable example of something not sure what he's a hoot to read as JPost's Arab reporter and doesn't he also belong to that 'uberliberal' outfit the Gatestone Institute?
ETA there are not really all too many Arabs in actual positions of real power in Israel though are there, I mean a few MK's from forever minority parties but governmental ministers? Housing, Education, Defense, Finance? not so much huh?
shira
(30,109 posts)You could have picked the hardcore extremists from Balad, but then again....you agree with them, right?
How about Raed Saleh?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Balad is a political party,[6] whose stated purpose is the 'struggle to transform the state of Israel into a democracy for all its citizens, irrespective of national or ethnic identity.'[7] It opposes the idea of Israel as a solely Jewish state, and supports its recasting as a binational state.
Balad also advocates that the state of Israel recognize Palestinian Arabs as a national minority, entitled to all rights that come with that status including autonomy in education, culture and media.[7] Since the party's formation, it has objected to every proposed state budget on the grounds that they have discriminated against the Arab population.
The party supports creation of two states based on pre-1967 borders, with the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem to constitute a Palestinian state[8] and the implementation of UN Resolution 194 regarding the right of return to Palestinian refugees.
Balad describes itself as a 'democratic progressive national party for the Palestinian citizens of Israel.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balad_%28political_party%29
as to Raed Saleh did he replace Haneen Zoabi as your favorite go to example of Israeli Arab politicians? He's a talking head and yes has said some nasty stuff, but on the same order so have many Israeli politicians
King_David
(14,851 posts)Of the Arabs and Jews..
For the Arabs it's not Abu Toma and for the Jews it is Chomsky .
What's consistant is that other peoples ie the western elite , get to decide for US.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)nor is Chomsky a leader but you're to make such claims if it pleases you
King_David
(14,851 posts)You got that right ... I agree .. Zero leader .
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)because, as you say, settlements include both Jews and Arabs. Good to know.
Of course, given that many settlements were constructed on stolen Palestinian land, and given that the PA will want to repatriate those lands to their true owners once a Palestinian state is established, I imagine that an Israeli Arab will be affected in the same way as any other Israeli, had they elected to buy an interest in said settlements.
shira
(30,109 posts)And that is the intent according to Abbas and his US Ambassador.
You support this.
============
Tell me, when have you ever condemned Israeli Arabs for moving into settlements? I'm assuming you don't have a problem with them doing so, just the Jews - correct?
I mean, it's not as if you believe Israel's Arabs living in settlements are squatting on stolen land....right? How can 'Palestinians' from Israel be squatting on stolen Palestinian land?
Just curious.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)and I call the police and have him removed, I suppose that by doing so, I have made my house Jew-free as well. But I'm not sure that amounts to much of an argument against anything. If the overwhelming number of Jews in the West Bank are living in illegal settlements and squatting on stolen Palestinian land, then unfortunately there are consequences to that.
You support it as well, remember? You still claim to support the Geneva Accord, which would leave many settlements in the hands of the Israelis, but would remove all settlements within a future Palestinian state. I doubt, of course, that you actually support it at all, and that you're actually a Kahanist who opposes any form of a Palestinian state, but obviously you wouldnt want to state that so baldly here.
Still, the West Bank wouldnt be Jew free, there would still be the Samaritans in Nablus, as well as a few Jewish residents, mainly those that have married into Palestinian families. Not many Jews admittedly, but then again there were never many Jews living in the West Bank. And you have to admit, there are very few Arabs living in the settlements. In fact the settlements are nearly Arab-free. Funny how you have no problem with that while insisting that the West Bank will be Jew-free...
Actually, I dont support it at all. Its a bit like a Jew buying stolen artwork from the Nazis. Obviously the artwork was stolen from Jews anyway, but not the same Jews. Its certainly a breach of solidarity in my view, if nothing else.
shira
(30,109 posts)...just like Arabs of the area. But you only see the Jews there as thieves, even ones whose families were ethnically cleansed from the area less than 100 years ago. Nice liberal view...
What's also nice and liberal (chuckle) is your attempt to whitewash Palestinian apartheid. They're very clear they want no Jews in a future Palestine. They have laws that make it illegal for Jews to purchase land there. I recall an earlier conversation when you whitewashed Jordanian law that makes it impossible for Jews to become citizens there too. Quite the progressive view you have.
And Samaritans are not Jews. Not even the Palestinians see them as Jews. In fact, did you know Jews originate from Judea? That's why we're called Jews and they are called Samaritans b/c that's where they originate from. They aren't/weren't Judeans, otherwise they'd be Jews too.
As to Arabs in settlements, there's nothing stopping the entire Israeli Arab population from moving to the settlements 10 minutes from now, if that's what they wish to do. However, Jews won't be allowed to live or purchase property in a future Palestine. You see a moral equivalence......how?
I've never seen Arab Israelis called thieves before by any anti-zionists like yourself. Ever. Anywhere. So obviously they're not thieves in your view or any other antizionist's view; only the Jews are considered thieves. So much for you & your fascist anti-zio buddies seeing your opponents over the green line as "Israelis", not Jews.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)would an Assyrian be entitled to steal a house from an Israeli Jew, on the basis that Assyrian history in Israel goes back to Sargon the Great, a thousand years before Judaism even existed? Didnt think so. Apparently the "thousands of years" excuse only applies to Jews.
They are officially regarded as Jews by the State of Israel, and are accepted as such according to the Law of Return.
An interesting argument. So are you in fact conceding that Jews have no historical entitlement to Samaria, but only to Judea? Because the current State of Israel includes a lot of land that wasn't part of the Kingdom of Judea.
Moreover, the Ethiopian Jews don't originate from Judea, but come from what are called "the ten lost tribes" (of Israel, not Judea). Are you contending that Ethiopian Jews are therefore not Jews?
Put it this way. About 80,000 Germans were killed by Russians and Poles in the dying days of World War II in what were essentially reprisal killings. Further, in a couple of instances, American soldiers gave guns to Jewish prisoners in liberated concentration camps and encouraged them to do as they would like to their former prison guards, and those Jews happily obliged.
Apart from neo-Nazis, no one really puts much emphasis on these killings. They are obviously small beer compared to the vastly bigger atrocities that were committed by the Nazis themselves. In the same way, you're hanging an awful lot on the very, very few settlers that happen to be Arab. Frankly, I don't think that they amount to much in the scheme of things.
Yeah, and there's nothing stopping the most of the African-American population of LA moving from South-central to Beverly Hills tomorrow. Absolutely no problem at all. None whatsoever. Frankly, I can't imagine why the settlements even have a 99.9% Jewish population. I mean, statistically, what are the chances of that?
What puerile attempts at argument, and what a sad, gibbering apologist you are.
shira
(30,109 posts)...tracing their roots back thousands of years - like Jews who've had ties there the entire time - then let me know. I find it ironic you're using the Samaritans as an excuse to let the PA off the hook. Presumably, if they were ethnically cleansed along with everyone else in 1948, they'd have no right to be where they are now. They'd be thieves in your view. I don't like to get into the "who is a Jew argument". Ethiopian Jews are of course Jews. In any case, the fact Samaritans weren't thrown out with the Jews goes to show they're not considered Jews by the Palestinians (or Jordanians for that matter). Fun religious fact for you is that Jesus says in Matthew 10:5-6 that Samaritans aren't Jews. In fact, Samaritans don't even consider themselves to be Jews, so why do you?
The same thing preventing most African Americans from moving from LA to Beverly Hills prevents me as well - economics. The opposite happens to be the case with W.Bank settlements, as they're significantly more affordable than anything within Israel proper. You think racism is the main factor preventing most African Americans from moving into Beverly Hills? Next thing you know, you'll be arguing Southern California is apartheid. Silly anti-zio arguments....
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)the current Knesset building is in fact leased from the Greek Patriarchate.
The Maronites/Phonecians, Samaritans, and Assyrians have always been in Israel in some number, going back into biblical times. Admittedly their numbers are quite small now. However, there have been periods (for example during the Kingdom of Jerusalem) when there were essentially no Jews living in Palestine. The Samaritans have lived in Nablus uninterrupted for three thousand years, not moving, not proselytising and not accepting converts. They have a far more straightforward claim to being descended from the Biblical Hebrews than most Jews.
Of course, the number of Jews in the West Bank have always been small. If Assyrians don't get a look in because their numbers are too small, then equally this would apply to the historically small Jewish population in the West Bank.
Fuck off. You started the whole "who is a Jew" argument. Samaritans are regarded as Jews by the State of Israel. Feel free to fucking complain to them if you like.
Samaritans claim descent from the ten tribes of Israel (hence they identify as Israelites, rather than Jews). Its a semantic difference. At the end of the day, Israel calls itself "Israel", rather than Judea, and purports to be a home for the ten lost tribes as well as the other two. Its a dickhead argument that you're peddling that does you no favours.
That might be true, if all land in Beverly Hills was administered by a "White National Fund", whose charter prevented them from leasing to Blacks.
shira
(30,109 posts)Samaritans don't even see themselves as Jews, and yet here you are attempting to show that the Palestinian leadership has nothing against them - as Jews. Neither the Palestinians or the Samaritans themselves recognize Samaritans as Jews. That won't stop you from making the same piss-poor argument in the future, however.
You did the same thing a while back when you attempted to downplay Jordanian law that makes it impossible for Jews to become citizens there.
You're making one dickhead racist argument after the next.
Par for the course for the anti-Israel brigade.
Now what's this utter schlock about leasing land? There's nothing preventing Israel's Arabs from going into the settlements tomorrow. Not economics or "race" (they're actually the same race as the Jews). What's next from you? Maybe Israel's Arabs are afraid of going into the settlements b/c the Jews there will kill them, use their blood in matzah, and then sell their organs?
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)from purchasing land is clearly racist. Whatever historical context might have applied at the time, would in any event not seem to matter now. The law should be repealed.
Equally, I admit that the treatment of Palestinian refugees has become a national disgrace in Lebanon. As it happens most non professional occupations are open to Palestinians now and non-Sunni Palestinians have been permitted to move in out of the camps. The others should be allowed to do so as well.
Racism exists at an official level in most Arab countries and I have not sought to deny that. The difference between us is that I can concede that the Jordanian law is racist whereas you refuse to concede that the JNF is racist in refusing to lease land to Arabs.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)I would suggest that incoming Zionist immigrants did not do anything to "prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing people of Palestine." That the disenfranchisement of the refugees resulted not from Zionism but from the war started to oppose it. If we look at Palestinian citizens of Israel we see that they are afforded freedom of religion and equal rights under the law.
The most dire circumstances are in Gaza, where again the situation is not resultant from a desire to oppress but from conflict that left few alternate options open to the Israelis. Again, this was a conflict chosen by the Gazans post 2005, not a foregone conclusion.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)well unless one is a computer
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)Some excerpts from Mr Landes' scholarship:-
The accusation that Obama ordered forces to stand down is an outright lie without a shred of evidence to back it up, including in the fox news article that Landes links in his post.
Frankly, this reads to me like someone who is one shade away from buying into the Barry Soetoro birther bullshit. It doesn't surprise me in the least that our friend is such a fan.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Such a very clever post.
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Last edited Sat Sep 28, 2013, 12:49 AM - Edit history (1)
after they knocked her down and pointed a gun in her face I'm impressed alright how humane of that soldier
pelsar
(12,283 posts)i realize you love to demonize all of the IDF soldiers..including Israelis son, (a combat soldier in an elite unit), and i realize that you never let facts get in your way
and even though the angle of the gun barrel, shows that its pointing at the soldiers feet..where in the video is she being "knocked down"?
Last edited Sat Sep 28, 2013, 05:14 AM - Edit history (1)
BTW I have never said anything negative about Israeli's son or any other individual simply because they are IDF
pelsar
(12,283 posts)standing around with guns pointed at the ground.....cameras can easily fool those who want to be fooled
_______
your default position is that all IDF soldiers are mindless evil "robots" you've made that clear time and time again......that includes all of them
still going with the "manhandling" as well?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)or did the soldier turn a bit or is it even the same soldier? however as I said I've never said anything negative about Israeli's son or any other individual unless they have actually done something simply being IDF is not enough but if you need to broadbrush me go ahead it doesn't make you correct though and I think you know that too
delrem
(9,688 posts)Looks to me that if he pulled the trigger, the stream of bullets would riddle her head.
Just sayin'.
But if you want to play a semantic game about the IDF firepower, go for it pelsar, but I bet you wouldn't like Palestinians to have that kind of firepower *on their own land*.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)the PA in fact does have that kind of firepower....its an automatic weapon, something they've got plenty of.
_____
and no its not a semantic game,..its about false accusations. Get rid of the false accusations, use language definitions that agree with the dictionary, use one standard to judge peoples actions, and the whole conversation will change
but thats where you and others don't want to go.....
delrem
(9,688 posts)The unarmed woman was on the ground. The fully armed and equipped IDF were surrounding.
The weapons of the IDF aren't just for show, they are an enforcement tool and they are used.
I didn't see any Palestinians with full-auto weapons demonstrating their firepower.
You, being an IDF hasbarist, know the absurdity of supposing that the PA could ever act like the IDF is acting here, for example in pre-1967 Israel.
There were no false accusations: there was just another typical "incident" where the IDF couldn't stop itself from demonstrating its power to suppress Palestinians and anyone who would seek to help them in their plight. The IDF is totally high on that power, and it's a power derived from systemic racism.
And by the way: The racism at issue is enshrined in Israel's law, pelsar. And I know you "didn't ask that", pelsar. It's just a *fact* that I like to reiterate when dealing with hasbarists.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Devoid of fact and truth.
It is indeed a Hasbara post.
delrem
(9,688 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)When MP Charlie Angus posted video of the squalid living conditions in Attawapiskat, what struck me most were the images of children. A boy of ten, his face covered in a scabbing rash. A family of six, including four children under the age of five, living in an uninsulated tent for two years. A trio of small children, staring vacantly at the camera (while, incongruously, a big flat screen television played cartoons in the background).
This isn’t the first documentation of the conditions in Attawapiskat. Another video posted in 2009 by supporters of Shannen Koostachin, an aboriginal girl who lost her life at 15 in a car accident, has children describing their health problems themselves: hair falling out, bleeding noses, puking.
As the doctor in Angus’s video described, due to the squalid housing conditions on the reserve – cold, mould, smoky air from wood burning stoves – these kids suffer from frequent respiratory infections, ear infections, strep throat, and rashes. Due to overcrowding, neglect, and abuse, they suffer from mental health issues. Indian children commit suicide at a rate 5-7 times higher than the non-native population; for Inuit children, the rate is 11 times higher, one of the highest in the world.
Children living in such squalor in non-native environments would be likely removed from their families and placed in foster care. But the grim legacy of the residential school system, and the political incorrectness of jeopardizing the maintenance of their aboriginal heritage, has effectively taken this option off the table for native kids. The result is that they are left to suffer in places like Attawapiskat, Davis Inlet, and the like, while the rest of the country remains ignorant of their plight, until its hits crisis levels, or a politician takes a personal interest.
No one is advocating that First Nations children be subjected to the cruelties of residential schools, where previous generations were told to be ashamed of being Indian, deliberately turned against their culture, and subjected to sexual and physical abuse. But the reality is that by leaving them in environments like Attawapiskat, we are knowingly condemning them to a cycle of poverty, abuse and neglect, a cycle that no amount of tax dollars has been able – or will be able – to break.
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/11/30/tasha-kheiriddin-aboriginal-apartheid-sentences-canadian-natives-to-misery/
There's no doubt that Canada was founded on the absolute and total denial of the rights of the First Nation populations. The Indian Act, the reservation system, is grotesque. It isn't natural, it's totally derived from the economic/military might driving European colonialism, a movement that has no foundations in morality or ethics. It's of a piece with the "ethics" of Gauls, Visigoths, Vandals,... sacking Rome. Except it's much worse, more concentrated, permanent, planned.
The recent history of North, South and Central America is like that. Nothing to be proud of, but plain fact. It sure the fuck doesn't approach my ideal of human community.
My own background is that of a middle-class family "pioneering" in central British Columbia, where we moved into an area already cleared of the "Indian families" who were dispossessed and forced to move onto "reserves", where their rights were minimal and even those minimal rights were easily trampled (after all, they had no hand in making the new "law of the land"!)
shira, if your best argument is to liken Israel's actions to *that*, in order to justify them, I think you need to spend some time out to rethink what it is to be an adult human in the 21st century.
When I was a child I wandered through what were First Nation lands, no longer considered such but which had many traces. Traces which were bulldozed over and eliminated, including graveyards and everything that existed. Bulldozed into the river. It was only in my twenties before I realized the injustice of it, the inhumanity of it, the political outrageousness of it. When I was younger I might've had twinges of consciousness, but because I was weak those twinges fell by the wayside in my efforts to be "cool". I'm not proud of that weak-willed younger self.
Canada has one saving grace. A Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It happened late, to be sure. But since its implementation it has served as a good guide. It's a lever that can be used. Consider the creation of the territory of Nunavut. You may think that's small, since the population is small compared to the land, but in the future Nunavut will be very big indeed and IMO might well become the most powerful driving force in Canada.
We no longer call the people of the First nations "Indians". The Queen Charlotte area is no longer called that, it is called Haida Gwaii. At one time the Keystone XL pipeline (Alberta tar sands to Prince Rupert, to Asia) would have been a virtually unopposed no-brainer (except for some "hippy protesters" to provide a laugh), but now it is totally stopped unless it gets First Nation approval, since it must go through First Nation lands. This is all a difference from the 17th/18th/19th centuries, and it's a progressive pro-democracy difference IMO.
shira
(30,109 posts)Check out recent articles here that I found via google:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=48191
Would you say there needs to be a concerted anti-apartheid movement against all nations of the planet (western, non-western, etc.)? Not an anti-racist movement, but anti-apartheid.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Canada has no laws asserting the superiority of one race/sect/nation over all others. Canadian citizens all share the same rights. The Canadian constitution certainly does not contain articles citing the requirement that one race/sect/nation be a demographic majority (what an astoundingly racist law!). Canada doesn't have an apartheid road system, and it most certainly does not engage in ethnic cleansing. Canada does not have a National Fund buying up lands for the exclusive use of one race/sect/nation.
To be sure, the First Nation peoples, the Quebecois people, have certain rights protecting their cultures written into our law, but in no way do those laws put those peoples in an inferior position. Canada's problems in this regard are based in the historically given roots of European colonial expansionism, which was indeed racist - and cleaning up after that mess is an enduring economic/social problem. But generally speaking the massive majority of Canadians stand behind efforts to solve those problems in good faith and mutual trust.
Your aim, and pelsar's aim, and the aim of the other hasbarists posting in I/P is clear: to *avoid* and *derail* discussions of the underlying *apartheid laws* defining Israel and how, perhaps, those apartheid laws might be changed (there's no other way to eliminate apartheid) so as to rectify the situation. To this end the hasbarist meme of the week is to equate *every* social/economic disparity with "apartheid" so as to defuse the term, rendering it meaningless.
We all know hasbara's strategy, shira - and if others posting in I/P are similar to me their aim in contributing, in "debating" with you, pelsar and the hasbarist crowd, isn't to change your mind or "win you over". That would presume that hasbara is based in good faith - when in fact hasbara is a collection of techniques used to defuse criticism of Israel while Israel continues its racist/colonist agenda, to create new settlements, to cleanse the Palestinian people from ever new areas slated to be annexed, and so on.
shira, I responded to you twice, now, and that's two times too many. I don't find the experience pleasant - so I'll leave you and pelsar et al to continue concocting your hasbara story. Bye.
shira
(30,109 posts)Synopsis
Canada: Apartheid Nation exposes the truth about Canada's remote northern First Nation communities: third world conditions in a first world country. While living next to one of the richest diamond mines in the world, the community faces poverty, homelessness, substandard education and infrastructure.
The Attawapiskat First Nation is representative of the product of an archaic federal government department 'Indian Affairs' whose policies propel discrimination against Canada's First Nations People. There are heroes working quietly and surely to effect great change. From small children to Chiefs, this story will move you with their dignity and hope for a better future.
http://www.canadaapartheidnation.com
Can't say I'm surprised, despite your faux concern for the rights of First Nations.
You refuse to see apartheid in Canada just as you refuse to see it in its most obvious form (in Lebanon vs. the Palestinian refugees where it's enshrined in Lebanese law).
You're out of excuses.
You see apartheid only where you wish to see it. For political expediency. Your hate blinds you. It's easy to tell it's hate when "leftists" like you can't even agree with the vast majority of Israel's most leftwing advocates. Just as rightwing fascists hate rightwing Israelis, you're no different. I know of no other example in which "leftists" like yourself are so diametrically opposed to another nation's leftwing. This is one way, and perhaps the best way I know that what motivates you first and foremost WRT your I/P crusade is hatred. You're fooling no one with your human rights bullshit.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Just another lying hasbarist.
Not a nice one, either.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Sat Oct 5, 2013, 06:00 AM - Edit history (1)
“I know that Israel is a wonderful democracy with equal treatment of all citizens whether Arab or Jew."
You should ask yourself why it's only radical fringe whack-jobs like David Duke who agree with your apartheid analogies.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)the concept is called "overwhelming force" its means that inorder to keep the other side from doing anything stupid if they think they have the power, they simply look around and see they have no chance. This infact saves lives since they dont do anything dumb that might result in a fight, that in the end would caused the soldiers to use their guns.
if you dont understand that basic concept, then you have either little understanding of how conflict is avoided in such situations or you have some basic emotional need to not to.....you tell me.
____
I'll assume that our racists laws (like those in Australia and in the US and Canada) makes all of its citizens racists.....which means i'm just wondering why you dont tell Israeli that her son is also a racist, he is after all in the IDF as a career soldier. Perhaps you would like to explain why you can't?
How about the racist laws where you live? i guess that makes you a racist as well or at least your country as a racist country.
delrem
(9,688 posts)That's what I said, and you've confirmed it many times.
Israel's racist foundational laws and high court decisions are uniquely definitive of Israel, pelsar. These laws define what Israel *is*, an apartheid state. Neither the US nor Canada nor Australia have racist laws the enthrone the superiority of one sect over another. That on is on Israel, and was on SA before the overthrow of the racist apartheid regime that ruled there.
It figures that, however many times I've repeated that the racism at issue is enshrined in Israel's law, pelsar, you continue in an attempt to personalize it. As if Israeli's son enacted that law and wasn't born under it and into its maw. But anyhow, I'm not going to explain, yet again, the difference between *observing* the *fact* of *racist law* that systematically governs a state, and the calling out of x, y, or z, individuals as "racists". Two different things, pelsar, and you know it. In fact, being a hasbarist you not only know it, but your job is to conflate it.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)so does the US, so does every country.......that subjects certain groups based on their genes to specific laws
why dont you define your version of racism...so we can apply it to other countries and see how they do....
and then define "apartheid" as per your definition and we'll apply that as well
keep you definitions precise.
_________________________
pelsar, you continue in an attempt to personalize
of course i personalize it....laws mean nothing if they are not enforced and who does the "enforcing?" People like me, Israelis son, his friends, the sons and daughters of israelis kibbutz members. Its very personal. If you believe the israeli population can make better choices, than you accept that we're responsible for our govts actions...us individuals.
Israelis son is a career solider, that means he has chosen to be a part of the "aparthied system", he chose it, he is not a passive observer. As do I and my family members, hence its very personal.
now that we cleared that up, perhaps you might want to ask israeli, about her sons choices, she is very proud of him, perhaps she has some insights?
delrem
(9,688 posts)Of course a self-described "Liberal Zionist", who claims "Liberal Zionism" is superior to "the western kind" because "Liberal Zionism" denies that the principle of equality before the law is a liberal value, would avoid the matter: which is Israel's apartheid laws which explicitly and with that effect in mind rule that one race is superior and others inferior.
Explicitly decreed racist inequality built into the foundation laws and high court decisions.
The US doesn't have apartheid laws, nor does Canada, although to be sure both countries began that way, as European colonies with a 100% colonial mindset. But both the US and Canada have progressed since then - by being forced (popular force, leverage) to uphold the principle of equality in each case where it hasn't. For example the US is even now confronting the *contradiction* between the principle of equality before the law, which is absolute, and the conditions imposed on the LGBT community.
We've been around the block on this before, pelsar, and I've no wish to play in your pissing contest of "questions". You *still* refuse to acknowledge the uniqueness of Israel's apartheid law, though as usual you temper this avoidance by uttering brain dead falsities regarding US human rights law.
Unless you *do* decide to address the material issue, Israel's apartheid law and how to change it so progress is at least *possible*, I'll leave you to have the last word. Be as prolix in your denial and avoidance as you can be! Go for it!
pelsar
(12,283 posts)if all you doing is making an accusation about israeli apartheid laws..without listing those laws, without a definition of these "apartheid laws, that puts you in the same boat as those who accuse israel of lacing chewing gum with AIDs, drinking Palestinian blood etc (maybe you believe that too)
well.....i'm waiting for those laws to be listed and the apartheid definition (make it precise please)
The US doesn't have apartheid laws, nor does Canada,
sure they do....just give me your definition first....then we'll take a look (the definition of apartheid has apparently changed since the days of S.Africa).
as far as looking at other countries such as the US and Canada for their unique apartheid laws (I'm assuming your definition is rather wide), its a simple concept. If israels racist laws fits the worlds standard for racist laws, then the question is if you are singling out israel for special treatment...
_______
remember in a different post, you mentioned to another poster how some of us avoid certain subjects?...well apparently you were thinking about yourself. i can list a few things you will not mention, a few subjects you wont touch.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Now, as per usual, deny it yet again.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)i read about id cards...how individuals have their religion on the ID card and other individual information....thats apartheid?
i read about the state keeping the land for itself.....and it decides how to divide it up, is that apartheid?
____
are those your complaints? Thats how your defining apartheid? thats it?
what i didnt find (maybe i read to fast) were the additional laws that requires the jews are inducted in to the army whereas the non jews were not subject to that law. Is that the apartheid your looking for?
__
after you clarify this we'll pop over to the rest of the world and see how their doing in comparison to find out if other western countries have such apartheid characteristic as well.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Thanks. I'm done.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)wow....thats pretty simplistic. I though at least you would have the guts to write out your definition of apatheid so that we could examine it.
i mean i want to see if the US and Canada also have apartheid laws, but clearly you dont want your precious belief even questioned.
so i guess we can say, that here is an example of you not wanting to talk about it and making a statement, declaring it factual and having no tolernce for having it even questioned.
___
btw aren't you even interested in learning about Canada and the US apartheid laws? or is your delclaration that they dont have any also irrefutable.
_______________
and i see why you've "done this before" you cant wait around to have your definitions questioned.....
pelsar
(12,283 posts)i reread your post and it appears your defining aparthied as the differnence between citizenship and nationality.
well it doesnt take much research to discover that its a huge subject that many countries have multiple definitions for it and dont use it as defining their countries as "apartheid"
hence if your defining apartheid as the difference between a national and citizen, you might as well declare the UK, US etc all apartheid states....
you'll have to do better to convince someone who hasnt drunk the kool-aid or who knows how to use google. Of course like i wrote, some people believe israel laces chewing gum with AIDs,
In a number of countries, nationality is legally a distinct concept from citizenship, or nationality is a necessary but not sufficient condition to exercise full political rights within a state or other polity.[1] Conceptually, citizenship is focused on the internal political life of the state, and nationality is a matter of international dealings.[5]
United States nationality law defines some persons born in U.S. outlying possessions as U.S. nationals but not citizens. British nationality law defines six classes of British national, among which "British citizen" is one class (and the only one having the right of abode in the United Kingdom). Similarly, in the Republic of China, commonly known as Taiwan, the status of national without household registration applies to people who has Republic of China nationality, but do not have an automatic entitlement to enter or reside in the Taiwan Area, and do not qualify for civic rights and duties there.
The concept of citizenship, too, has a broad range of meanings that stretch beyond its core as a legal status. In various academic literatures, citizenship presupposes the existence of democratic institutions of government and refers to a bundle of legal or moral rights and obligations or to individual and collective forms of participation in the public realm. While we acknowledge the importance of linking the literatures on citizenship as a legal status to these broader sociological and normative debates, we limit our use of the concept to its legal core meaning.
Israeli
(4,157 posts)Try here :
http://www.israeli-occupation.org/2011-11-20/ran-greenstein-how-to-fight-the-israel-apartheid-analogy-in-four-easy-steps-a-guide-for-useful-hasbara-idiots/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+IsraeliOccupationArchive+%28Israeli+Occupation+Archive%29
and here :
http://972mag.com/if-this-isnt-apartheid-then-what-is-it/79513/
pelsar
(12,283 posts)but he might have a few questions to ask you...and i have no doubt you will answer clear and straight, i just wonder if he will ask (i dont think he will)
Israeli
(4,157 posts)....asked me pelsar ?
there is such a thing as private mail on here 
Sorry ... but not every thing is under your control .
pelsar
(12,283 posts)but then i wouldnt think much of him....perhaps this little internet forum scares him?..He did write that some of us here wont go near certain subjects, i guess he was talking about himself.
.....the whole idea of the public discourse is to get things out in the open, see where the contradictions are, the hypocrisy, the beliefs vs the reality. Doesn't take much courage to write here, or perhaps i'm wrong, and this can be a very "scary place" for some people where it takes "courage" to write what you believe
Israeli
(4,157 posts)you think this "little internet forum" revolves around what you think ?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)i do this for my own educcation and to a certain degree i enjoy that when posters making accusations and when we start to really look at those accusations, we find sometimes hypocrisy, sometimes just simple lies, sometimes some truth.
though interesting enough....no matter what the lie, the fabricated story, apparently the beliefs are so strong that they are irrelevant, more so, there is a tendency to disappear just when things get interesting.
btw i dont know if you know it, but apparently our sons are supporting the apartheid govt of israel by virtue of their service in the IDF.
at least that is what i understand from the various posters here, they tend to shy away when i ask them that directly....perhaps you would like to, it might make things interesting around here?
or at least clear it up, as i may have misunderstood.
Israeli
(4,157 posts)he would love to answer you but he cant .
he has however read everything you have had to say regarding his home ....his home and his roots and his politics are all kibbutz based , and we all know what you think about us .
his roots are not yours pelsar ... his culture is not yours pelsar .
and more important than roots or culture .....his politics are not yours pelsar .
You are an American born Zionist .
We are Israeli born post-zionists .
King_David
(14,851 posts)I thought you said you were a past-Zionist or Matzah Pesach-Zionist?
Which cult is it ?
A Secular Positive-Zionist ?
( I met one of those yesterday )
BTW you have an obsession with where people are born and those that are "different " from you and those that are not of "your culture" ... It's ugly and unnerving...
UGLY ....
pelsar
(12,283 posts)I"ve been told that here in many many different ways that those who serve also support the apartheid govt. Since you seem to believe the israeli govt is an apartheid govt, it would be interesting to get your (his) perspective on this service and "support"
I've been told here many many times that only when all of the refugees and their relatives return to israel will there be peace, as that only this is 'justice"and without that 'justice" there will never be peace but only continued "apartheid"
yet both you and many of the posters here apparently have a problem discussing the subject. Your knowledge and political perspective would provide quite a bit of information for many of the posters here about those two subjects
since that is the culture you keep writing about that is yours, yet you seem to not to actually want to write about it, to enlighten those here.
why not?
delrem
(9,688 posts)But the PMs have just been saying "hi", to express a certain camaraderie, a certain resonance. More important, I read Israeli's posts -- I even blanked my ignore list so I could read her responses to certain posters, because her responses were so informative and led to quite a different community of thought than found in hasbara's news feed.
I've also learned a lot from you hasbarists, pelsar. In fact the link I posted above, which you dismissed after 30 seconds or less (time stamp of your immediate response) was the result of considerable work on my part, studying up on Israel's basic laws (considered constitutional in nature) and high court decisions in order to respond to the *fact* that you hasbarists deny Israel's distinction of "nationality" from "citizen" (but just when you find it convenient to do so!), and that the basic laws prefer one specific nationality (so defined) over all others. One of the facts that you blithely dismissed: Israel's basic laws (aka constitution) *requires* that there be a Jewish demographic majority. Pretty breathtaking law, that.... Esp. when collected with the others.
You seem to be the kind of fellow who reaches out to shake hands while preparing to deliver a kick to that person's privates, by which I mean that you're the kind of fellow who spouts innuendo about Israeli's son, who isn't here to defend himself, in order to attack both Israeli and those here who she's discussing things with and informing. Cheap shots are just cheap shots, pelsar, and you've delivered that one quite often now - so it's lost any small force of surprise (that someone would go so low) it might have had. Perhaps you don't read much, pelsar, or it's just that you immediately forget what you read, but Israeli has explained her family situation to a greater extent than anyone else (at least recently) in this forum. I don't give your ignorant cheap shots any credence whatsoever, and this is the last I'll say of it.
Good day.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)and your a poor spy..i copied what you wrote, so its easier for me to read, after skimming it.
more to the point. Ignoring Israelis bigotry about who was born where (I thought that was frowned upon in most western countries....), she has an interesting perspective that for reasons that are not clear to me neither you nor she wants to make public. As much as she is proud of her son, and from my point of view has every right to be, as i have learned from you, he is voluntarily supporting the apartheid govt with his service. Perhaps its a subject you would like to further comment on in public
I understand that it may put you in conflict with Israelis general point of view, but so what, or is it a subject you do not wish to discuss, that is "off limits. (perhaps you would like to explain why)
i would say you could use my son ( who is also in a combat unit, though not the elite unit israelis son is) and he is in a socialist movement, but he is a zionist, hence it wouldnt have any impact. As I understand it you and her are excellent examples two groups using each other that have different beliefs but refuse to mention them in public-i always find that very interesting
that you hasbarists deny Israel's distinction of "nationality" from "citizen"
i dont deny anything...why would i deny that there is a difference. A little research has shown the difference between nationality and citizen is quite the legal issue found in many western countries, hence its not a specific israeli issue. If you define that difference as "apartheid" there certainly is a lot going on, but that is not why one wants to declare israel an "apartheid" govt. It has to be unique.
As far as the basic laws go (and i'm not a lawyer, nor do i delve into it). I do believe there is also a law about "equality before the law" which has been upheld by the supreme court . So from my point of view, once there is equality before the law, where anyone (national or citizen) can sue for their rights, you've just tossed your unique apartheid out the door....
clearly you basing your 'apartheid" on part of the israeli justice system as per your preferred definition, while avoiding others that have have clarified the equality part.
its like declaring the US system apartheid because on the college application system you have to check what race you are, thereby either taking away your rights or giving you super rights (at the expense of others) in entering the college of your choice (granted its not an exact parallel). but the concept is there- superior rights based on genetic make up.
as she has claimed over and over, she has a unique culture in israel and she does, a combo of bigotry, bourgeois, progressive, nationalistic, post zionist, vote zionist party meretz but avows to be an anti zionist
Its just a shame she wont make the inherent contradictions public or you wont ask.
Israeli and those here who she's discussing things with and informing
As i wrote, she and you are avoiding the key issues of the conflict here ...ROR and serving the apartheid govt, I'm not interested in an echo chamber, they're boring and not very informative
asking about the sensitive issues is not the "cheap shot" its the subject you clearly dont want to be brought up for a public discussion.......and be a part of
____
delrem
(9,688 posts)frothing in a stream of consciousness doesn't help you, or anyone.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)i would suggest to you that you find the 'courage' to talk about the subject that you dont want to talk about"
or at least explain why (you can PM me, i'll keep it a secret)
delrem
(9,688 posts)You can keep that secret, too.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)apparently you have little tolerant for those of other cultures. As its been explained to me several times, my culture is not like others.
so if someone doesn't agree with you and is willing to have invest time and research to have a discussion with you, and ask you questions that are not comfortable, your reaction is basically a few short replays (some you've prepared) and thats is it, end of tolerance level
________________________________
i assume like many your more comfortable in one of those echo chamber forums where everyone more or less agrees an pats each other on the back rather then having your core values actually questioned.
just dont complain about who is not willing to answer any questions or discuss any subject, since clearly that describes yourself.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Last edited Tue Oct 1, 2013, 06:30 AM - Edit history (1)
Deal with, pelsar.
After all, you expect others to deal with the "supremacist culture" you claim to belong to, with all your Zionist "overwhelming force".
eta: if you want to apply the hasbara "mirroring" technique, ask shira for some lessons, first. It's the only technique shira uses and she has some tricks to impart.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)aren't you the one that has defined what "justice" is...ignoring how other cultures may define it?...i believe you simply "dismiss them out of hand" as "unenlightened"
i would say thats pretty "supremacist of you" kind of reminds me of the western colonial period.
perhapys you would like to discuss how you see you culture as the bastion of real justice, while all those other cultures that reject yours are "wrong"
(no of course you dont want to go there, it leads to some pretty nasty conclusions about your own culture doesnt it)
i wouldnt know about the 'mirroring technique" i just remember clearly your post to an other poster about poster here not willing to discuss some subjects.
and then i find you simply not willing to discuss some subjects. Its not a "mirror technique" its your accusation.
______
just dont make a false accusation. whereas i can name multiple subjects you wont discuss, you cant name even one that I wont...try it
delrem
(9,688 posts)But no, I don't need help with pelsar. As I said several times about hasbarists, they don't engage in dialogue, they just use techniques as per a formula (as per article 1, above) -- and this is certainly a case of that. I had this kind of weird exchange with pelsar before, so I knew what to expect and pelsar delivered.
Consider the case:
delrem (continuing an earlier discussion):
"And by the way: The racism at issue is enshrined in Israel's law, pelsar. And I know you "didn't ask that", pelsar. It's just a *fact* that I like to reiterate when dealing with hasbarists."
pelsar:
"if all you doing is making an accusation about israeli apartheid laws..without listing those laws, without a definition of these "apartheid laws, that puts you in the same boat as those who accuse israel of lacing chewing gum with AIDs, drinking Palestinian blood etc (maybe you believe that too)
well.....i'm waiting for those laws to be listed and the apartheid definition (make it precise please) "
delrem (the link is to official pages listing basic laws and to high court decisions w.r.t. those laws, and is fairly comprehensive given that this forum is informal discussion and, well, folk like pelsar aren't exactly into *reading*):
" I've done this before, several times, so here's a link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=39901
Now, as per usual, deny it yet again."
pelsar:
"thats it?....some israeli court cases?...
wow....thats pretty simplistic. I though at least you would have the guts to write out your definition of apatheid so that we could examine it."
heh, as I said, Que Eee Dee, talk about proving my case by drawing out the hasbarist's own rote formula!!
Continuing discussions like that is a totally worthless time sump.
Look at the time-stamps of pelsar's replies! 5 minutes! No wonder he hasn't a clue about the case he's purportedly debating...
pelsar
(12,283 posts)i also asked you how YOU define this apartheid.....i assumed you would be listing laws that are clearly about apartheid, and that would then explain how they define it. instead i got a mishmash of court cases about nationality vs citizenship, (some ID card information) which apparently has no affect on ones civil rights. Furthermore the nationality/citizenship does not define apartheid in so many other countries, which brings us to the point of it it all
I realize the object is to define israeli racist laws to be unlike the racist laws of Canada, the US or Australia, that is after all the only way one can define israel as an apartheid country. Yet national identity vs citizenship seems to be a poor way to go.....but since you've decided that, that is the base for your definition of apartheid perhaps you might like to explain which rights are limited by the non jews? or perhaps i didnt understand your list correctly (always a possibility).
i.e. define your version of apartheid.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That will probably lay things out for you as effectively as any poster on DU would be able to, if not moreso.
The document is available here:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1525/jps.2008.37.2.173
pelsar
(12,283 posts)i will have to....and this will take sometime....
from israeli
http://www.israeli-occupation.org/2011-11-20/ran-greenstein-how-to-fight-the-israel-apartheid-analogy-in-four-easy-steps-a-guide-for-useful-hasbara-idiots/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+IsraeliOccupationArchive+%28Israeli+Occupation+Archive%29
_____
this is an interesting way of finding apartheid in israel. The concept being that israel is in a unique situation that has no parallels with other countries throughout history, hence any comparison to other countries is considered "null and void" thereby giving one a free rein to call out israel on anything while at the same time proclaiming that looking at any world standard is irrelevant.
the fact that every country is unique and that every situation is in fact unique apparently does not stop the rest of the world from comparing countries to each other as a method to understand reactions and policies
oberliner
(58,724 posts)He caused a stir when he used the word apartheid in the title but went out of his way to point out that he was only talking about the West Bank.
In a NY Times interview, he stated: "Israel is a wonderful democracy with equal treatment of all citizens whether Arab or Jew. And so I very carefully avoided talking about anything inside Israel."
But with respect to circumstances inside the West Bank, there are valid points to be made.
Though, in my opinion, there are more accurate and less loaded terms to use. I mean why use an Afrikaans word rather than an English, Hebrew, or Arabic one?
It does seem like the primary reason is pathos rather than logos.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)he was here for only a few short posts but his explanation was clear
he used the word apartheid, not because it described the situation but because he felt the situation required a similar world reaction. I liked the honesty and clarity.
___
what i find most interesting is the search for apartheid in israel. Whereas in S.Africa it was clear, for israel everyone seems to have a different definition of apartheid.
the westbank occupation like all military occupations are discriminatory...its a better description of the environment...its just doesnt carry with it any of the emotional reaction that apartheid has..in fact it sounds mundane...which is why the apartheid is the word of choice.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Israeli Discrimination Week doesn't have the same ring though.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Does not even live in Israel .Like pelsar does.....
This is your guy explaining Zionism? A professor living in South Africa???
Ha Ha Ha
Why did you not choose Chomsky or Atzmon ??
Ran Greenstein ? LOL LOL LOL
Israeli
(4,157 posts)He received his BA, MA at Haifa University.
Israel and the apartheid analogy is a comparison between Israel's treatment of the Palestinians to South Africa's treatment of non-whites during its apartheid era.
Would you like a list of Israelis who have done so ?
Top of the list is Shulamit Aloni and Yossi Sarid.
If you are interested in the rest of the list ?..... go here :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy
and scroll down .
King_David
(14,851 posts)Where they are born .... UGLY...
In Quebec the bigotry is referred to as "pure laine"and it's plain ugly .
Anti immigrant sentiment is ugly...
shira
(30,109 posts)As American history is steeped in institutional savagery toward African Americans, Canada's history, too, is pockmarked by the white majority's mistreatment of Indigenous peoples. Most notable among a litany of gross violations of justice are the permanent occupation of ancestral lands beginning in the 18th century, the noxious attempt to 'civilize' Aboriginal people in residential schools in the early 1900s, and the refusal to recognize Aboriginal Canadians as legal 'persons' until the middle of the 20th century. And the similarities, unfortunately, are not only historical.
Though Canada doesn't yet lock up the same percentage of its citizenry as its southern neighbor -- the most heavily incarcerated society in the world -- measures passed by Prime Minister Harper's Conservative government have resulted in a steady increase in the number of Canadians behind bars. Canadians of Aboriginal ancestries have borne the brunt of the surge of prisoners.
The proportion of African Americans and Aboriginal Canadians in prison far exceed their representation in the U.S. and Canada, respectively. In the U.S., black Americans account for 12 per cent of the total population, but represent nearly 40 per cent of the prison population. In Canada, Aboriginal peoples make up four per cent of the total population, but 20 per cent of the prison population.
http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2013/01/02/Idle-No-More/
eyl
(2,499 posts)the "pointed a gun at her" claim. Where did you see they knocked her down? Looks to me they were trying to hold her up.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)However I suspect this is really about distracting from from the fact that IDF was not allowing the diplomats to deliver aid to Palestinians whom had recently been ousted from their homes not even tents for shelter
pelsar
(12,283 posts)when she tried to climb down from the truck...
or do you have proof that shes was man-handled and dragged out kicking and screaming?
__
apparently you dont believe in the concept of "innocent until proven guilty
___
this is not about distracting about anything...its impossible to have a decent discussion when the initial accusations and are clearly meant to demonize.....which means the whole articles credibility is suspect.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and she slipped and fell at the feet of soldiers surrounding the truck, yes that sort of thing happens to kids on playgrounds quite frequently
pelsar
(12,283 posts)that are not facts...
then the credibility of the author is suspect from the beginning...what else is not factual? are they really tents?
as far as her "slipping" ..is there any evidence that she didn't?....do you have something you dont want to tell us? or must it be the soldiers who put here there, because you believe they must have....with no evidence whatsoever, but their IDF soliders, so they must have done the "evil deed"
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)
pelsar
(12,283 posts)well.....
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)to attempt to delegitimize, or Al Durah number ?????
so what we have is a situation wherein we're being told that French diplomats, were tooling around the West Bank for no apparent reason and when IDF stopped them a diplomat slipped and fell when getting out of the truck right at the feet of several IDF soldier and a ready photographer took a picture at just the right angle to make it look like a gun was pointed in her face,(was that preplanned?) and then got up and viciously attacked the poor innocent soldiers, and Reuters along with a few other news services purposely misreported it to smear poor Israel have I got that right now 
pelsar
(12,283 posts)will you show me at which time the lady was dragged out?....and the photographs of the gun pointed at the lady while the soldiers hand is on the magazine not even near the trigger, is how the weapons are held pointing down at their feet...he would have to standing over her for the weapon to be pointed at her head which the feet clearly show is not the case.
doesnt take much to fool those who want to be fooled does it?
anyway..back to the video......which time should i be looking at?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)thanks
and you're right those that want to be fooled will be
pelsar
(12,283 posts)if you cant produce some kind of real evidence for what you believe, just say so:
people believe all kinds of things without any proof.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but I know don't believe that stuff, only Israel and it's 'supporters' can tell the real truth
pelsar
(12,283 posts)thats your proof?.....i assume you choose who's words to believe, depending upon their point of view. evidence not being relevant.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and it only took a week to come up with it
pelsar
(12,283 posts)you may like the authors point of view, you may like their accusations (many like the accusations that israel is putting aids in chewing gum, poisoning the water, killing Palestinian children for their blood)....but when there is no evidence to prove it, it becomes nothing more than a story.
a story and with a couple dubious accusations, means the other facts become suspect as well...at least in my world. But then i never do care who the author of any article is, i'm more interested in the content itself and how true or not.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and you speak of the journalists that wrote this as though they were novelists, fascinating indeed
eyl
(2,499 posts)I've posted a video of the incident, according to which AFAICT the soldiers weren't touching her when she exited the truck. You have not actually supplied any counterevidence to that, such as an image or video (which you claim exist) showing her being dragged out.
As far as pointing a weapon at her, this is obviously not happening. "Pointing" a weapon indicates the weapon is ready to be used. If that was the case, the soldier's right hand would be near the trigger with the left steadying it (of course this would be reversed if he was a lefty, but in that case the rifle would be slung on his opposite side). In this case, we see the soldier's right hand on the magazine, which is not a pose to uee the rifle quickly - it's a pose to keep the barrel from swinging and hitting something (most commonly your own knee). Furthermore, it's obvious from the position of his feet that the gun barrel is noit pointed in the direction of her head.
So both pelsar and I have posted video/pictorial evidence to disprove her claim. If you have evidence contradicting that, I invite you to present it ; so far you have only appealed to textual evidence which besides being contradicted by tyhe visuals is based on her account.
It's also telling that AFAIK the French government has not protested this and instead agreed to quietly send her home at the end of the year; I'd expect much more vigorous complaints if they believed her account.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)or perhaps some sort of tour, not to deliver aid, and the entire story is made up? Gee perhaps they weren't really French eithr
fascinating
eyl
(2,499 posts)The only things I addressed were her allegations of being manhandled by the IDF
delrem
(9,688 posts)Case closed.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)you make up some absurd claim against israel, its population, its IDF members based on no evidence, no facts and you even believe its true.
well lets see some proof that she didnt slip? she does have a long history of slipping you know.
delrem
(9,688 posts)pelsar
(12,283 posts)I'm just imitating the system used here: first the accusation against Israel, the IDF, the settlers, the politicians, etc.. ...based partially on some actual event, actual proof of the accusations not being necessary
seems to me the lady slipped and fell and that is how she ended up on the ground. If there is some proof otherwise I would be glad to watch. There certainly were quite a few cameras out there that day, funny how they missed the soldiers climbing up on the cabin, opening the door and throwing her out....
pehaps you would like to find the "missing" 17 seconds...I'm sure someone's got them,
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Whether it is being shot in the back while Palestinian being run over by bull dozers, heart attacks/deaths while being interrogated or "slipping" the those poor innocent souls in the IDF have their share of pure misfortune.
delrem
(9,688 posts)You weren't here all this time, and now you're here - and you seem very familiar to the place?
When did you last post here in any frequency?
I'm only inquiring because you introduce yourself, here, as kind of a "gang on voice".
King_David
(14,851 posts)And he is from Israel.
eyl
(2,499 posts)I used to frequent the board regularly, I've been mostly absent over the last couple of years for various reasons but I check in occasionally.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Again, I wish there could just be a way to discuss it without all the nonsense.
Do you think she was manhandled based on what you saw?
delrem
(9,688 posts)then what Israel is doing to the Bedouin communities is OK - moral and righteous?
In other words, do you think that's the real issue, or do you think your protestations against what shira calls "pallywood" (a totally racist meme, by the way) is more important?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)It's also humanitarian to help people rebuild their homes. You can't really justify Israeli troops forcing Palestinians to live in rubble until all hostilities end.
The building supplies were not going to be weaponized, and you know it.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Like the Europeans arriving in America killed the Indigenous people's (First Nations) way of life so too has that scenario worked to Israel's favor with regard to the Palestinians. Perhaps Israel took a page out of the abominations of American's past, or maybe they looked to the Soviets crushing the people Ukraine...Kulaks by slowly starving them to death: 7 million.
It all boils down to brute-force colonialism at the expense of human rights and dignity.
I guess the term "never again" comes with a price tag, and that is the curse of acting like oppressors with impunity.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Close to the 7 million you have bolded?
Or maybe closer to zero?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)But please feel free to do anything to avoid discussing that.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)What does that number have to do with Israel?
I would like to discuss the validity of your comparison - if you are willing to do so.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)You are either willfully blind, or willfully obtuse.
On edit: perhaps you are both. 
It seems to be a common occurrence with the apologistas where Israel can do no wrong, and they will never admit it in any way. It goes against their narrative that Israel is the only Democracy in the Mid East, bla bla bla, while they ignore the practices of apartheid, brute-force colonialism and the settlers that are helped do it along with the IDF and Israeli government.
Now you and others can throw up all sorts of crap every time somebody tries to help the Palestinians in any way, and god knows they need it, while turning a blind eye to the policies that the Israeli government has engineered over a generation.
It's land theft.
It's the destruction of a people.
It's the criminal misconduct of a government that claims to be a democracy while grinding others under their heel.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)After reading the post several times, my contention is that the comparison is invalid.
There is no evidence to support your claim that what is going on in Israel is remotely similar to the situation your cite where seven million people starved to death.
If you think that it is, you are either willfully blind, or willfully obtuse.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Bury your head in the sand as well. Give my regards to the other ostriches.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Everything is certainly not rosy. I just don't agree with the particular comparisons you chose. I am basing that assessment on the evidence of the last 40+ years. Israel's goal, you purport, is to "destroy the Palestinian people". As I asked earlier, how many Palestinians have died of starvation at the hands of the Israelis since the occupation began? Is it closer to 7 million or zero? How are the Palestinian people faring now as compared to, say, any other time in history of your choosing?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)it only applies to some, and the rest be damned.
My point which you keep on trying to ignore, to my amusement, is that Israel is an oppressive regime to the Palestinians: like other repressive regimes that have done harm to others.
But keep on trying to make it about something else...
Why is Israel an abusive apartheid state?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)From the USHMM:
What does "Never Again" mean to you?
After the Holocaust, the world united behind two simple words: Never Again. These words represent a promise to past and future generations that we will do everything we can to ensure the horrors of the Holocaust are not repeated.
http://neveragain.ushmm.org/page/s/never-again
I am trying to respond directly to the claim you seem to be putting forth - not making it about anything else. Not denying the existence of oppression, just contesting your comparisons with regard to scale and singularity.
Are you suggesting that the horrors of the Holocaust are currently being repeated by Israel with respect to the Palestinians?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)But please proceed, ober.
On edit: willfully and maliciously fits better than blindly.
Blindly would be a better description of the supporters of the repressive regime.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)It applies universally.
Can you tell me what you mean by the "repressive regime" - is that a reference to the current Netanyahu government or Israel generally?
Are you a fan of any political parties in Israel?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)its an old story: its a simple concept, once israel is guilty of original sin (which mimics the right wing nationalists and the religious-interesting intersection of ideologies) which involves land ownership: once your guilty stealing that, anything goes. It has no relevance whether its true or not. The accusation, the comparison, to 7 million starved, chewing gum with AIDs, Palestinians killed for their organs....its a matter of the "ends justifies the means." Since israel is the guilty party here, its doesn't matter what the accusation is, as long as it advances the cause, thats why you won't get a direct answer.
if they admit that they've mades it up, or that is not true, that israel in fact is not starving the Palestinians, not killing them "wholesale" Not using poison gas, etc, then the conflict becomes less "black and white". More so, it leads to the concept that the Palestinians as victims are not 100% victims but also play an active part.
and that is the road where they cannot go. Once you respect the Palestinians not just as a race, but as culture as a society that can and does makes decisions, then their simple political world gets turned upside down. Your seeing the 21 century "white mans burden"..same concept as in the 1800's that they "know best."
why they need such a simplistic view of the conflict is something else, but its clear, its not based on any real events on the ground or in the history.
lets see what I'll be called now...(can't wait)
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)does to the Palestinians on a daily basis.
There's nothing to see except lame attempts to play the victim, while Palestinians are truly victimized.
Take a bow, pelsar, you deserve it.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Do you think that the horrors of the Holocaust are currently being repeated by Israel?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)They're the aggressors.
Wear it as a badge of honor if you will.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)What is not clear is whether or not you believe what they are doing in Palestine is akin to what went on during the Holocaust.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)And again, for a people who the phrase "never again" should really have meaning they have a curious way of treating others.
Not in a classical sense, but the groundwork of systematic abuse, theft and murder to destroy a people or drive them off is apparent.
One would think that the term "Never Again" would be extended to the Palestinians, but I guess if somebody wants their land then it is all justifiable in some fucked up final solution of their own.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)They have a special responsibility to be nice to others?
One lesson learned from the Holocaust might be for Jews to tell the world to go fuck themselves.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)retain no moral right to use the term "never again." If they want to use that term and act the role of the oppressors then they might as well add their names right along side those who oppressed them in the past.
We already know that is what Israel has been saying to the world, to the Palestinians, to their sugar daddy in the US and anybody that they can insult along the way.
That is what has been my argument most of the time in IP.
Since that is the case when Israel says "fuck you" to the world then the world should say "fuck you" right back without hesitation, remorse or feelings of pity.
Thank you for pointing it out for everybody so clearly.
I'm bookmarking this, Ober. Thank you again.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I've tried to make this point several times so bookmarking it would be a good idea.
A sizable chunk of the world is definitely following your advice.
shira
(30,109 posts)The Holocaust being an educational experience from which Jews were supposed to graduate summa cum laude...
Yes, that's the ticket all right.
It's shocking that a "progressive" like yourself cannot imagine how shockingly offensive and foul such comments are.
Imagine telling Blacks, Arabs, or First Nations they should know better than to treat other people....
Oh fuck it, this is a waste of time.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Should bookmark it for future reference.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I wrote Israel, shira, and you failed spectacularly to make the word Israel into something else. Boy, you really are a one trick phony.
Your false outrage is duly noted.
shira
(30,109 posts)Seriously?
Or better yet, Israel the Jewish state, of all other nations on the planet....should know better?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Nice try, though, to make it into one of your screaming wedge issues.
shira
(30,109 posts)Maybe that's why we don't see any elected Dems in congress or the senate spewing similar shit against Israel in their speeches.
I'm sure David Duke and Pat Buchanan "get" whatever it is RDO is serving up here...
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)you can shed a light on what they are all about...seeing how they are racists and all.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)delivering aid.
But please, defend the usual IDF tactics of shut it down and starve them out.
shira
(30,109 posts)...in making quiet donations to their Palestinian friends in need.
They're attention whoring, occupation-tourists interested in making Pallywood fiction.
Folks like yourself, Pat Buchanan, David Duke, & Greta Berlin have made a little industry for themselves with their compassion abuse.
And don't pretend you have no idea what I'm writing about.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I doubt that you really understand, or would ever admit, how brutal Israel has been to the Palestinians, but go ahead and tell us all that they have been ever so kind instead.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Who have the idf ever starved out of somewhere? If it's their usual tactic I'd expect there's many examples.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
