Will the real post-Zionists stand up?

[oberliner]

WASHINGTON – I get jealous visiting the National Museum of American History for a couple of reasons. First, because of the very existence of such a spectacular museum, which is fully funded by the state and doesn't charge an entry fee. Second, because of the sense of recognition that permeates the exhibits here. The good have won.

The museum bravely displays a turbulent, violent, polarizing and controversial history. It covers the rejection of foreign rule, the birth of a nation, the massacre of Native Americans, slavery, civil war, imperialism, world wars, the atom bomb, the Cold War, racial segregation, and unnecessary conquests in Asia and the Middle East. But at the end of the day, the fundamental values of democracy, freedom and equality prevail. There is plenty more room for improvement, but it seems as if the general direction of history is a positive one.

What direction is Israel going in? It was promising at the outset. The Zionist project was a success story, if not a miracle. The real question is whether it has an expiry date.

What will bring the Zionist project to an end is the occupation and the settlement enterprise. This subject may not trouble the average Israeli, but it signifies the downfall of Zionism. The goal of Zionism was to create a national home for the Jewish people within secure, recognized borders. But this goal cannot be achieved as long as the occupation continues and the settlement enterprise exists.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/will-the-real-post-zionists-stand-up.premium-1.526899

[delrem]

1. So? A very forward way of introducing an OP, that's for certain.

For that question, I'd give the middle finger.

Who in the fuck is, here, introducing the notion of an "expiration date" for a Zionist state?
Israel is a country, and all here (I mean, discussing this in I/P) want it to prosper.
"Expiration date" is absolutist talk, and it's so fucking wrong that it defies a single entry point.

Why the fuck should a Jewish state not only be equal but allow the existence of equal states?

[Israeli]

2. Yup

Israel is a country ..... our country and we want it to prosper to ,
without those mentioned in the OP
the author is playing with the term post-zionism delrem and is taking a dig at the Right wing .

The goal of Zionism was to create a national home for the Jewish people within secure, recognized borders.

well Zionism sure failed cos we dont have one secure border .
Lets leave out the religious terms and stick to .... Why the fuck should the Israeli state not only be equal but allow the existence of equal states? .... and why not this :

In contrast to political Zionism's goal of the Jewish state, many post-Zionists advocate the evolution of Israel into a non-ideological, secular, liberal democratic state, to be officially neither Jewish nor Arab in character.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-Zionism

[shira]

3. A country for all its citizens - Nice!

Anti-zionist 1-staters want that after full RoR.

Post-zionists like yourself want 2 states with limited RoR and an Israel for all its citizens.

=====

It appears to me the only difference is the demographics. In the latter post-zionist scenario, the Jews outnumber the Arabs significantly and do not allow for an Arab majority.

Am I right? Or is there something else to it?

[Israeli]

4. much more to it shira

you could start by reading here :

http://www.pij.org/details.php?id=328

Looking at Israel society from post-ideological, post-modernist, post-colonial and post-Marxist perspectives.

The progression of civil society and post-Zionism in Israel is not linear; the backlash of ethno-nationalist collectivism and fundamentalist neo-Zionism lurks around the corner, awaiting a chance to be inflamed by an eventual new cycle of Israeli-Palestinian hostilities, or in fact awaiting to inflame hostilities. The connection between the peace process and the civil process in Israel is clear, and it is a two-sided tie — no peace with no civility, and no civility with no peace.

[oberliner]

5. Does that writer get paid by the word?

"The backlash of ethno-nationalist collectivism..."

It's almost like a parody of itself.

[delrem]

7. Uri Ram isn't a "pundit" or "blogger".

From his bio "He is a Sociologist at Ben Gurion University."

He isn't trying to dumb the topic down for folk with no attention span. His first audience is likely to be students and colleagues who're familiar with many of the names referenced in his bibliography, either having already studied some of their work or have that study on the table.

As Israeli says, there's "much more to it shira".
Understatement of the year.

[oberliner]

8. No kidding

That was my point. It's like a parody of academia.

[delrem]

10. No, it isn't "like a parody of academia".

Nor can I see what your point is, beyond to say "I just don't get it" in another way.

The author dissects the concept "post-Zionism" in terms of four lines of study in Sociology, so he can make clear his distinctions. The author explains that he isn't discussing "post-Zionism" in some fictional abstract isolation from the world, but in terms of what it is, a movement in the world that has a large dynamic. The author's distinctions are essential to intellectual movements that have longer roots than this particular conflict. This makes them easier to understand, to grasp, than some tract that lacks that kind of grounding.
I understand how easy it is for someone to say "Fuck that shit". But I also know that when I say it I'm in effect saying "Fuck academia".

By describing his distinctions in terms of broader sociological concepts the author ensures that the material is accessible to a worldwide audience of academics. By describing his distinctions in terms of several different concepts the author shows not just the range of *differences* within post-Zionism, but also something of their conceptual origin.

[oberliner]

16. Yes it is

Look at my quotation from the article. It's comical and would very easily pass as a spoof.

[delrem]

17. You get highest marks for repetitiousness.

Lowest marks for comprehension of the reason Israeli linked to the article in the first place.

You give no indication that you understand the article. This isn't a matter of "agreeing with post Zionism", or of "agreeing that the article is a profound work of literature", but of having any understanding at all of what the article is about. And you're satisfied to leave it at that, so you can go on to talk smack about "post Zionism".

[King_David]

44. Yes there is "much more to it",

And your not getting it , whereas Oberliner is. Anyone writing a line like that can not be taken seriously . And that comes from an academic...

[Israeli]

86. Well King_David some take him very seriously ...

BGU Sociology-Anthropology Chair Prof. Uri Ram awarded Distinguished Alumnus Award of the New School for Social Research, New York

The head of the Department of Sociology-Anthropology, Prof. Ram is the author of several recent books including The Globalization of Israel: McWorld in Tel Aviv, Jihad in Jerusalem (Routledge 2007) and Israeli Nationalism: Social Conflicts and the Politics of Knowledge (Routledge 2011).

His research interests focus on the dialectics of the globalization of Israeli society, and especially the encounter between the "global" and the "local". He analyzes the growing hiatus between two tendencies that struggle over the definition of Israeli identity: ethno-nationalism (neo-Zionism) and civic-liberalism (post-Zionism). Another research interest of his is the history of sociological thought in Israel, and especially the transition from "mainstream" to "critical" sociology, as he described in his book The Changing Agenda of Israeli Sociology: Theory, Ideology and Identity (SUNY Press 1995).

The award will be presented to Prof. Ram by Prof. Michael Schober, the Dean of the Graduate Faculty of the New School, in a ceremony on May 23rd.

MORE.....

http://in.bgu.ac.il/en/Pages/news/uri_ram.aspx

His most quoted quote is :

Post-Zionism is citizen-oriented (supporting equal rights, and in that sense favoring a state of all its citizens within the boundaries of the Green Line), universal and global. Neo-Zionism is particularist, tribal, Jewish, ethnic nationalist, fundamentalist, and even fascist on the fringe.

[shira]

6. What would you consider a model nation for Israel to aspire towards?

A genuinely secular democratic state for all its people...

What country fits that bill now?

[Israeli]

9. well

What would you consider a model nation for Israel to aspire towards?

anything than where we are right now shira or where we are heading

What country fits that bill now?

no idea , cant we aim for a first ?


let me use the words of Shlomo Sand to better express how we think from a recent article of his :
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/on-israeli-identity-jewish-democracy-and-oxymorons-a-response-to-carlo-strenger.premium-1.527181#

Israel, which insists on defining itself as a Jewish state and not as an Israeli republic, alienates and discriminates against 25 percent of its citizens who, to their misfortune, aren't registered by the Interior Ministry as Jews. A normal democracy always sees itself as an expression of its citizenry and doesn’t make note of its residents' ethnic origin or religion (imagine the uproar if in a Western country the population registry would mark the descendants of Jews as such, like is done in Israel, without asking or consulting with them).

In view of the 20th century's history of persecution and suffering, Israel can continue to serve as a place of refuge for descendants of Jews persecuted due to their ethnic origin or religious faith; but it cannot be both a democracy and at the same time belong to "world Jewry." This is an oxymoron that has severe consequences: it creates injustice; it leads to exclusion of native locals, and it may bring destruction upon us all.

Prof. Sand teaches at Tel Aviv University's Department of History. His is the author of the book "The Invention of the Jewish People" and the recently published "Matai V'aikh Hadalti L'hiyot Yehudi" ("When and How I Stopped Being Jewish&quot .

[shira]

12. You have no idea which country now is a state for all its people?

So there is one?

Or one doesn't yet exist? And if not, then why not? See my post below to delrem for clarification.

[Israeli]

14. LOL shira

and here was I waiting for you to slam and slander Shlomo Sand for being an antisemitic anti-Zionist
.... when in fact he is yet another Israeli post-zionist

WOW but the times they are a changing .

Another good read for you :

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/12/shlomo-sand-on-zionism-post-zionism-and-the-two-state-solution.html

I don’t define myself as an anti-Zionist. I define myself as a post-Zionist and non-Zionist because the justification of this land is not historical right

[shira]

15. I think it's a great thing to aspire towards...

If the case is made well and the Israeli people are for it, so be it and that's wonderful.

What I don't get is constant vilification and demonization of Israel for not being what doesn't yet exist anywhere else in the world today. No other country is maliciously slandered like Israel for daring not to attain "perfection". See the problem?

For the record, you've taught me some things about non- and post- zionists I didn't know before. So long as we're all for 2 states, who am I to argue with them? If we agree/disagree on the character of a future Israel, who cares? Israel will be what its people wish it to be. Zei gezunt!

So my problem isn't with you or your fellow 2-state non- and post- zionist friends.

We should be against those in the Palestinian and Israeli camps against 2 states, including those throughout the International Community who are for 1-state. Agreed?

[Israeli]

20. no shira I dont see the problem

not as you see it anyhow

not only do we live on different continents we live in different worlds

you perceive any criticism of Israel as antisemitism , in some cases you are right in most cases its not

here is our version of Israeli Anti-Semitism :
http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=59697

The rest of the world, too, remains silent in view of Israel’s anti-Semitic policy. Nearly no one ventures to protect the people in Israeli concentration towns as they are dispossessed. This kind of racism used to be practiced against Jews. Now it is practiced in their name…

And we – a painfully scant few – falter in view of this horrific reality, and all we achieve is to be condemned as self-hating traitors…

We should be against those in the Palestinian and Israeli camps against 2 states, including those throughout the International Community who are for 1-state. Agreed?

Agreement would depend on whether those that you mention are for both peoples living together in peace, harmony ,tolerance , understanding and with equality otherwise not agreed .

[shira]

22. It's not that any criticism of Israel is antisemitism...

Last edited Tue Jun 4, 2013, 11:54 AM - Edit history (1)

It's that demonization, slander, and hyperbole including old racist stereotypes and tropes are without question antisemitic.

Reasonably arguing settlement policies and racism within Israel isn't antisemitic. But accusing Israel and its supporters of genocide, harvesting Palestinian organs, and controlling the world's banks, media, and governments is classic antisemitic bigotry - not legitimate criticism. Bigots spewing such hatred infest the anti-zionist movement. Failure to condemn them and being indifferent to their hate is as rightwing as it gets.

Anti-Zionists want one state, not two. They talk about a secular democracy while supporting and romanticizing Hamas and Islamic Jihad efforts vs. Israel. I don't see how supporting revolutionary Islamist bigots like Hamas or other zealoted fanatics like KKK militants is in any way a move towards a peaceful settlement. To deny the true nature of Hamas and their racist cohorts is bigoted and warmongering to the extreme.

[azurnoir]

24. shira I have a question for you

how many members of the US House of Representatives commonly known as Congress and the US Senate are anti or post Zionists, as opposed to how many are Zionists?


eta I really do not expect a straight answer to this question

[shira]

26. The vast majority are Zionists, why? n/t

[azurnoir]

28. Thank you now one more question

just who 'controls' Congress?

[shira]

30. You've gotta be kidding me. You're trying to get Alice Walker off the hook....

...with that crap?

Do Zionists like Obama run the country as well? And the banks, like Greenspan and Bernanke? And Hollywood.....? And the media...?

[azurnoir]

31. well shira I knew you would not give a straight answer thanks

your non answer/accusation speaks for itself quite eloquently

[shira]

33. Those leading questions of yours are straight up Stormfront. n/t

[azurnoir]

34. ???? asking if members of the Hoouse of Representatives and Senate are Zionists

is from Stormfront? do tell

[shira]

36. Oh, I'm wrong? What WERE you getting at dear? n/t

[azurnoir]

38. that albeit you say that virtually all of Congress the Senate and the POTUS are Zionists

and that is a-okay when someone else who you disagree with says that Congress is controlled by Zionists (which essentially you just admitted) it is anti-semitic , which seems to a not only hubris but quite a double standard add to that your accusations of me asking questions athat lead to that conclusion, as being from Stormfront

[King_David]

41. Any statement by anyone ,

Stating that Zionists and/or Jews control Congress,The White House ,Banks,Wall Street, Hollywood are classic extremist antiSemitism without any allowance for exception ....

[azurnoir]

43. so you say but shira just admitted that the POTUS, and virtually all members

of both the Congress and Senate are Zionists do is that too antisemitism or does it depend on who is saying it?

It would seem here you are conflating Zionist with Jew which is indeed patiently untrue

[King_David]

45. Anyone saying that Zionists and or Jews,

( notice the and/or) control Congress , Wall Street , Hollywood , The Banks and The White House , is stating a classic antiSemitic statement .

And there is no fucking argument ... No fucking argument .

We don't even need you eMailing Lithis or Skinner on this one ... It's FACT !

[azurnoir]

47. so it's okay to say that all or virtually all members of the Legislative Branch of the US government

and the POTUS are Zionists is okay but say that those same people control the offices they hold is not?

interesting indeed

[King_David]

51. Classic Antisemitism

Anyone saying that Zionists and or Jews,
( notice the and/or) control Congress , Wall Street , Hollywood , The Banks and The White House , is stating a classic antiSemitic statement .

And there is no fucking argument ... No fucking argument .

We don't even need you eMailing Lithos or Skinner on this one ... It's FACT !

[azurnoir]

52. why are you repeating yourself?

I pointed a strange hole or perhaps way of weasel wording around that part of the ToS, nothing more or nothing less

[shira]

60. Worse.Than.Stormfront. n/t

[Dick Dastardly]

63. They are not Zionists but more correctly put they are supporters of Zionism/Israel.

Its a misstatement to call them Zionists.


Stating most of the legislative branch supports Zionism/Israel is certainly valid and true.

[azurnoir]

66. ah so now they're not Zionists themselves they just support Zionism

a rather thin line there

[Dick Dastardly]

67. I never said they were in the first place, nor have I ever thought they were.

Only Shira stated they were. Just because Shira fell for your semantic game/trap does not make it so.

[azurnoir]

70. and no one but you has attempted to use weasel words to erase it either

in Fact King_David's diatribe seemed to confirm it

can we be expecting a pile on denials now

[pelsar]

159. most member of congress are dog lovers...

doesnt mean the "dog lover union" controls congress.

most members of congress are christians....doesnt mean the church controls congress

most members of congress believe in wearing suits to work...doesnt mean the tailors union controls congress

most members of congress apparaently believe that israel has a right to exist as well as defend it self .....how each individual member of congress defines that support and why is an individual manner, if your really curious you should ask them, i doubt shira or anyone here has that ability to actually know.

unless of course you believe the zionists here have special powers....do you?

[azurnoir]

160. well the cat guild is very relieved by that

but no I was making another point entirely has to do over kill and character assassination of a certain poet for asking some pop singer making a post baby come back not to play Israel

but no worries the singer will sing and the occupation has a new poster girl

[delrem]

11. Look at it this way:

If we deny the notion of "A country for all its citizens", we find ourselves in a country defined by shira, by people who think like shira. That can't be good.

[shira]

13. This isn't about denying the notion of a country for all its citizens...

It's about denying reality. Israel faces real threats to its security and it appears the best you've got is that Israel should aspire towards some Utopian ideal. It should be the first country on the planet to make the leap, despite its very real security concerns. If they don't do it, they suck. Evil buggers better be perfect unlike any other country on earth, or else...

I'm asking for a little reality.

Get it?

Rather than slam Israel for not transforming itself into some Utopian ideal, how about first calling on Israel to be like some model country out there that has proven itself to be stable over the past few decades while successfully coping with very real security threats like Israel has?

That's too much to ask?

[delrem]

19. Hey, thanks for the input!

You, shira:
"....It's about denying reality. Israel faces real threats to its security and it appears the best you've got is that Israel should aspire towards some Utopian ideal. ...

I'm asking for a little reality.

Get it?"

Me, delrem:
I think Israel greatly exaggerates its real threats to security. And you, being a very "out there" voice of hasbara, express this exaggeration.

You, shira:
"Rather than slam Israel for not transforming itself into some Utopian ideal, how about first calling on Israel to be like some model country out there that has proven itself to be stable over the past few decades while successfully coping with very real security threats like Israel has?

That's too much to ask?"

Me, delrem:
Yes, that's too much to ask, as I explained when I said that Israel exaggerates its threats to security.

[shira]

21. Video about Israel's security needs

http://www.defensibleborders.org/security/

There are few Israelis who would disagree with that.

But let's assume you're right and all that is exaggerated. If Israel follows your plan and shit hits the fan as predicted in the link, then what? What's your plan B?

[Israeli]

23. there are many Israelis who would disagree with that !!

for gods sake shira you are spouting Likud's philosophy again !!
how can you say you would vote Meretz if you lived here and come up with a web page like that ??? !!!!

its pure right wing !!

read here :
http://peacenow.org/images/Indefensible.pdf

They imply that anyone who would suggest
that a future border should be based on the 1967 lines—starting with
President Obama—must not care about Israel’s security. In making these
arguments, the opponents of a realistic peace agreement are cynically
misrepresenting the issue of future Israeli-Palestinian borders and what
President Obama said about them, in order to leverage legitimate concerns
for Israel’s security to justify hard-line, ideological positions and to score
political points in the domestic Israeli and American arenas.

Likewise, at the heart of this debate is the recognition that the ideological
arguments that form the central rationale for Israel’s West Bank settlement
enterprise fail to resonate with most Israelis and among the vast majority of American supporters of Israel. Consequently, supporters of the settlements
have realized that a more politically palatable argument must be found to
make the case for why Israel must keep all or most of the West Bank and
continue expanding settlements.

The issue of the “defensibility” of the 1967 lines is also used to obscure
the real ideological agenda of many peace opponents: a desire to keep
much or all of the West Bank under Israel’s control in order to continue and
expand settlements while obscuring the cost to Israel.

you guys deal with her from now on ... I've had it with this two faced hypocrisy

[shira]

25. Get real. Here's Rabin's last speech refuting your crap...

Rabin took Israel's very real security concerns seriously...

We view the permanent solution in the framework of State of Israel which will include most of the area of the Land of Israel as it was under the rule of the British Mandate, and alongside it a Palestinian entity which will be a home to most of the Palestinian residents living in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

We would like this to be an entity which is less than a state, and which will independently run the lives of the Palestinians under its authority. The borders of the State of Israel, during the permanent solution, will be beyond the lines which existed before the Six Day War. We will not return to the 4 June 1967 lines.

And these are the main changes, not all of them, which we envision and want in the permanent solution:

A. First and foremost, united Jerusalem, which will include both Ma'ale Adumim and Givat Ze'ev -- as the capital of Israel, under Israeli sovereignty, while preserving the rights of the members of the other faiths, Christianity and Islam, to freedom of access and freedom of worship in their holy places, according to the customs of their faiths.

B. The security border of the State of Israel will be located in the Jordan Valley, in the broadest meaning of that term.

C. Changes which will include the addition of Gush Etzion, Efrat, Beitar and other communities, most of which are in the area east of what was the "Green Line," prior to the Six Day War.

D. The establishment of blocs of settlements in Judea and Samaria, like the one in Gush Katif.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/mfa-archive/1995/pages/pm%20rabin%20in%20knesset-%20ratification%20of%20interim%20agree.aspx


Go on....pull my other leg telling me how much you adored the "rightwing" Rabin for his views.

[delrem]

27. There is no plan B. "A country for all its citizens" stands alone.

Yes, of course you right wing extremist pro-apartheid types are frightened shitless by a basic demand like "A country for all its citizens", but, well, you'll just have to get used to it.

[shira]

29. So Israel must become a 1-state Utopia like no other nation, agree to RoR....

...and share all the land from the River to the Sea, regardless whether a big war breaks out as a result with 10's or 100's of thousands (or worse) killed and/or ethnically cleansed in the process.

Yes?

[delrem]

32. Aw, you're such a little nutbar with such questions!

hehe, thanks again, shira, for your input

[shira]

35. When asked how many would have to die to achieve this 1-state utopia...

Loewenstein at first tried to turn the tables on me by asking me a question. But I pressed him. Was it one million? Two million? "Six million" came back the answer with a smirk. How utterly despicable - and from a man who then said - without a hint of irony - "I have spent my life fighting antisemitism"! (He also said that Iran is no threat to Israel!).

As Loewenstein wasn’t quite answering the question he was pressed further by Hoffman as to how many people Loewenstein thinks should die. First, Frank Barat, the Chairman, answered “200,000? (here is more on Barat). Then Loewenstein answered “Six million. That’s my answer. Write that down.“

http://richardmillett.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/antony-loewenstein-six-million-should-die/

Yeah, real f-cking funny (hehe).

[delrem]

37. ""Six million" came back the answer with a smirk."

You hit all the markers, nutbar.

[shira]

39. Yeah, and the other guy said 200,000. Classy.

Real f-ing funny.

[delrem]

40. I like it when you go into full Pamela mode.

[shira]

46. You lose the argument when all you have is ad-hominem. No substance.

At least those guys concede there'd be an all-out war.

If you were honest, you'd agree.

[delrem]

53. Geller is the flipside of Stormfront, just different memes.

I'd never go to Stormfront to dispute with those jackwads - I'm just a bit bemused to find the flipside of it here at DU, that's all.
In the meantime, I remind myself that your absurd Full-Geller response is a negative response to the notion "A country for all its citizens". I'm not debating that notion, shira, I'm just saying it's a good thing for a country to be, and I'm observing with a little awe and distaste your extremist reaction. That's all.

[shira]

55. You don't get it, nor do you want to. I have no problem w/ Israel becoming that one day...

But it would have to happen within the context of a 2-state solution.

The Palestinians would have their own sharia-style theocracy and the Israelis could have the bestest democracy ever seen. If that's what the people want, so be it.

======

Your 1-state vision of that is an impossibility.

[delrem]

57. uh huh. soitanly, Pam.

[shira]

59. Just remember you're pro-war. At least 200,000 by Frank Barat's account.

That makes you more extreme and rightwing than Pam Gellar.

Congrats!

[delrem]

61. "A country for all its citizens" Pam.

sheesh, Pam, you do go ON

[shira]

64. But by your reckoning, there is no such thing. It's Utopia...

And not only that, you want it imposed on > 90% of a Palestinian population that wants a state resembling either Egypt under Mubarak (the PA) or Egypt under Morsi (Hamas/IJ).

Why would you wish to impose something against the will of 9 out of every 10 Palestinians - and then pretend to label that a democratic Utopia for all?

Just admit it. You want war...

The 1-state solution Palestinians favor most of all is that of an Arab majority with sharia-style law.

What are you doing to counter that?

[delrem]

69. I'm not going to "counter" your ridiculous allegations, Pam.

Your ridiculous allegations are your method - you being a smear artist and character assassin. You have a cornucopia of ridiculous allegations provided from your branch of hasbara.

"A country for all its citizens", nitwit.

[shira]

72. Yeah, Palestinian polling on secular democracy is just a lie, obviously...

From 1988...

============

Of the 1,024 people surveyed, only 10.4 percent shared Mr. Abu-Lughod's dream of a ''democratic, secular'' Palestinian state. Instead, nearly 60 percent dream of a state founded on Islamic law (26.5 percent) or on a hybrid of Islam and Arab nationalism (29.6 percent).
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/05/06/opinion/l-who-wants-a-democratic-secular-palestine-807988.html

============

From 2011...

About how the respondents identify themselves, the majority, 57%, identified themselves as Muslims, 21% identified themselves as Palestinians first, 19% as human beings first and 5% as Arabs first.

The increase in adherence to religious identity is also reflected in the system preferred by the Palestinian people.

About 40% of the respondents said that they believe that the Islamic caliphate is the best system for Palestinians, 24% chose a system like one of the Arab countries, and 12 % prefer a system like one of the European countries.
http://english.wafa.ps/index.php?action=detail&id=16042

Lies, lies I tell you!

You make Pam Gellar look sane in comparison.

[delrem]

77. "A country for all its citizens", peanut

[shira]

79. Thanks Pam. n/t

[azurnoir]

42. why would anyone "have to die" for Israel to be a nation for Israeli's?

no matter what their ethnic/religious affiliation is?

[shira]

48. Because no one wants that 1-state secular "utopia".

Only few Israelis do and maybe 10% of Palestinians at most.

It's a call to war.

[azurnoir]

49. really? there is no other possibility?

we heard similar pronunciations about a bloodbath in South Africa should apartheid there end too

[shira]

54. You're going to impose a solution on > 90% of all involved & hope for peace?

The last time the 2 people were together, they were in a civil war back in 1947-48.

The hatred b/w the 2 is arguably worse now than back then.

Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the PA will fight it tooth and nail. You know that very well. They want a sharia-style theocracy.

[azurnoir]

56. what I know very well are your ugly proclomations about Palestinian/Arabs

you seem to confuse your own opinion with fact but that's okay it reminds me of when Pro-Apartheid folks in South Africa would throw Zulu warriors into the mix as an excuse

[shira]

58. Don't pretend you don't know the facts. We've been over this before...

From 1988...

============

Of the 1,024 people surveyed, only 10.4 percent shared Mr. Abu-Lughod's dream of a ''democratic, secular'' Palestinian state. Instead, nearly 60 percent dream of a state founded on Islamic law (26.5 percent) or on a hybrid of Islam and Arab nationalism (29.6 percent).
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/05/06/opinion/l-who-wants-a-democratic-secular-palestine-807988.html

============

From 2011...

About how the respondents identify themselves, the majority, 57%, identified themselves as Muslims, 21% identified themselves as Palestinians first, 19% as human beings first and 5% as Arabs first.

The increase in adherence to religious identity is also reflected in the system preferred by the Palestinian people.

About 40% of the respondents said that they believe that the Islamic caliphate is the best system for Palestinians, 24% chose a system like one of the Arab countries, and 12 % prefer a system like one of the European countries.
http://english.wafa.ps/index.php?action=detail&id=16042

At best 10-12% of Palestinians support a secular, one state solution.

Don't pretend I'm making up hateful shit.

[azurnoir]

62. your concentration on the supposed religious fanaticism of Palestinians

with out so much as a whisper about the other side speaks quite eloquently here thank you

BTW the title of youyr WAFA article is


Survey: Majority of Palestinians Believe Israel not Partner for Peace

also for Palestinians both now and 2 years ago the situation is hypothetical-reality often brings changes in attitude along with it

[shira]

65. Israel is already a real democracy. Palestinians don't want that...

How do you call yourself pro-Palestinian when what you want is opposed by 9 of every 10 Palestinians?

[azurnoir]

68. I see those Palestinian just do not want democracy I see

thanks shira please do not stop you represent Israel's supporters oh so well, in fact if I had to chose one for the sole or soul voice it would indeed be you

[shira]

71. Not a western, secular democracy as the polls show. But those polls lie, right? n/t

[azurnoir]

73. like American democracy where there is supposed to be strict seperation of church and state ?

or something else?

[shira]

74. Stick to the topic. You want secular democracy imposed on Palestinians....

You don't respect their choice (90%) favoring a sharia-style state.

You know better than them.

Nice colonialist attitude you have there.

======

I say respect their choice. Let them run their own style state. Let Israel run theirs. 2 states, not 1 imposed solution that will turn into a war.

[azurnoir]

75. perhaps you should review the thread title when it comes to staying on topic

but I'll take that non-answer as an answer in and of itself

[shira]

76. Post Zionists want 2 states w/ each people choosing their own destiny...

You want something imposed on the "natives" because you think you know what's best for all.

[azurnoir]

78. I haven't said that I wanted anything I challanged

what I consider hyperbole as to the bloodbath that would occurred if in the end a one state solution should happen, myself I can go either way on this one a 2 state or a one state solution as long as the Palestinian state is actually a viable state that borders on something besides Israel (the Palestinian only island in the 'middle' of Greater Israel) solution

[shira]

80. No more games. You admitted you were for full RoR....

As for not believing a bloodbath will occur, do you think Hamas and Islamic Jihad will simply start getting along with all the Jews they've hated and wanted dead for years? Fatah and Hamas hate each other to death - imagine Hamas and Islamic Jihad vs. the Jews.

Frank Barat admitted 200,000 would die in order to achieve 1-state. At least he admitted what everyone knows...

[delrem]

81. hey, deja vu!

The ministry of pre-crime, headed by Pamela Geller.

[shira]

82. Thanks Duke. n/t

[delrem]

83. "A country for all its citizens".

With no "Plan B".
I'm happy to repeat such common sense.

[shira]

84. So why hasn't that happened anywhere else in the world? n/t

[delrem]

85. And what planet are you from?

[shira]

87. So which nation exists that is truly a land for all its people, free from discrimination?

I can't wait to learn about this 'Utopian' society.

Waiting...

[azurnoir]

91. There is no Utopian society however most Western countries do attempt at least to combat the bigotry

in their societies rather than blindfold themselves or make excuses for them

[delrem]

92. shira, pelsar, several others, don't distinguish

shira, pelsar, several others, don't distinguish between the ideal of a law or principle, and the reality/actuality of this physical example or that.

On that level the nationalist discrimination of Zionism can be excused, because no country exists in a state of perfection w.r.t. "equality of persons". Nowhere you look, over the whole planet, is there a country where no group of people is fighting against a state of inequality.

This is a fact, but if you look toward motivation behind this fact it's only a fact because the notion that all persons should be equal under the law, and should be equal *citizens* of their country, is a principle, an ideal. Universal.

[Israeli]

93. delrem ...

see my post #86 in reply to King David :

Post-Zionism is citizen-oriented (supporting equal rights, and in that sense favoring a state of all its citizens within the boundaries of the Green Line), universal and global. Neo-Zionism is particularist, tribal, Jewish, ethnic nationalist, fundamentalist, and even fascist on the fringe.

Its the racism that motivates most of us , to understand read this from the president of the Association for Civil Rights in Israel ..... another non Zionist :

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4361026,00.html

Whoever adopts the denial mechanism should please volunteer themselves and spend a day posing as a Palestinian in the occupied territories, an Arab in Jerusalem or Safed, or a black person knocking on the door of a nightclub. In a racist atmosphere, it is not only the preacher of racism who is responsible for sowing the seeds of calamity. Those who deny the existence of racial injustice are also responsible – those who are not partners to racial injustice but have a finger in the pie and remain silent, whether out of fear or indifference. They may well find themselves victims of a racist regime tomorrow. They may lose their freedoms and their liberal way of life. It happened not long ago in enlightened and humanistic Europe, and if we do not pull ourselves together and shake off the affliction of the racist epidemic, it will happen here tomorrow to us too.

[shira]

94. But you're so damned hypocritical...

Israel could become a state for all its citizens within its 1948-67 borders, but not even that would be enough to satisfy you. Nothing but Israel's utter demise will do.

Nevermind that it's ridiculous on its face to take anti-discrimination advice from someone whose anti-Israel advocacy mimics that of David Duke. You know, being a white supremacist doesn't mean he isn't very concerned about racial discrimination in Israel...



[font color = "blue"]From DavidDuke dot com[/font]

Racial Segregation in Israel More Extreme than Jim Crow or Apartheid South Africa
Administrator May 30, 2013 |

Israel’s largest adventure park, “Superland” practices complete racial discrimination which makes Jim Crow segregation or Apartheid South Africa look like child’s play, it has emerged.

A posting on the Arab Israeli Balad party on Facebook by Khaled Shakra, a seventh-grade teacher at the Ajial school in Jaffa, has revealed that the theme park, the lasted in Israel, does not allow Arab Israelis and Jews to share the park on the same day, and strictly segregates parties on the basis of race....

...In both America and South Africa, Jewish Supremacists were the leading activists working to end the policies of racial discrimination in those countries—yet today, Jewish Supremacists fanatically support the racist state of Israel which practices racial segregation on a vast scale which makes Jim Crow and Apartheid seem petty.

The astonishing hypocrisy of Jewish Supremacists in demanding that all other peoples abolish their own self-interest, while rigidly enforcing the most extreme anti-gentile discrimination in Israel, is yet another example of the double standards to which they adhere.

To gain an understanding of how extreme this situation is, imagine if you would, Six Flags adventure park in America segregating Jews from European Americans.

Firstly, such a scenario is unimaginable, and even if it were ever to occur, the same Jewish Supremacists who support Israel no matter what, would the very first to be screaming “racism” and “holocaust.”

The blatant racism also makes a mockery of the $8 million per day that American taxpayers hand over to Israel courtesy of the Jewish lobby which controls the US government.

US taxpayers—of all races—are directly subsidizing the Zionist state which actively pursues racial segregation on a grand scale.

[delrem]

105. OK, ms. geller, since I don't want to be raked over the coals for being D. Duke.

I don't like Mr. Duke because he doesn't know how to grasp the concept "equality of persons before the law", as being essential for the law of the land. If he did we could maybe carry on a conversation.

My problem with Mr. Duke and Ms. Geller is that someway or another both try to justify breaching that law. No, that's not the right wording. Better "they both try to overturn that law", where a lot of heat and light is created by rhetoric in the process.

Now you say: "Israel could become a state for all its citizens within its 1948-67 borders, but not even that would be enough to satisfy you. Nothing but Israel's utter demise will do.

Hold on! Who are *you* to speak for *me* in your invocations?

You're asserting that "Israel could become a state for all its citizens within its 1948-67 borders", pure and simple, your invocations be damned.

Then why doesn't Israel do that?

[shira]

109. So now you're for 2 states, so long as Israel becomes in your view...

...a state for all its citizens? Is that right?

[delrem]

118. Ms. Geller: it's you who go on and on about "2" or "1" state.

making up bs claims about what others posting to I/P "support"

[shira]

120. Well then why don't you make yourself clear about that. n/t

[delrem]

123. And spoil all your fun? You little imp, you.

[shira]

124. I see. You don't want to share what you're really for WRT Israel/Palestine....

...but you damned well know what you're against.

You fit in well with your anti-Israel colleagues, too embarassed and ashamed to disclose who and what you're really all about.

[delrem]

126. But I'm glad you don't let that stop you, impish one. An imagination is a wonderful thing!

[shira]

128. If your position on I/P was truly humane, anti-racist, and progressive....

...there'd be no need to hide what you actually believe, support, and advocate for.

Your opponents here have nothing to hide, but you do.

[delrem]

132. But I don't hide what I believe, little impish one.

And besides, like all little internet imps, you enjoy making shit up and flinging it. It's so easy to do that, compared to discussing say, the import of a phrase "a country for all its citizens".

[shira]

135. So explain what you're for and try answering simple questions...

You've been evasive here for the longest time.

Whether you've been asked by me, Oberliner, Pelsar, Shaktimaan, etc. You're not very forthcoming for some odd reason.

[delrem]

137. In a nutshell: Equality of persons before the law.

as in "a country for all its citizens"

That's why I don't like ethnic cleansing followed by sieges on the resulting ghettos, little imp. But I gather that neither you nor any of the little hasbara imps that you name can understand that.

[shira]

140. Liberal democracies guaranteeing equal rights for all are countries for all its citizens.

Israel guarantees equal rights for all, by law.


Guess who demanded equal rights for Arabs
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/guess-who-demanded-equal-rights-for-arabs/

[azurnoir]

141. Do Israeli Jews have the right to have their spouses join them in Israel?

Do Israeli Arabs?

[shira]

142. From friendly states, yes. From enemy states, nope. n/t

[azurnoir]

143. and the West Bank is an "enemy state"?

[shira]

144. Until the PA makes peace with Israel, of course they are. n/t

[azurnoir]

145. even though Palestinian security openly co-operates with Israeli security? eta

in fact it was Israel who requested the US restore at least the security portion of the aid Palestinians get from the US when Congress froze all aid a while back ?

you know the stuff you pedal as political oppression by the PA

[shira]

146. Did I miss the peace treaty & end-of-conflict b/w the 2 sides? n/t

[azurnoir]

147. so even though PA security co-operates with Israel

they are considered the enemy? interesting definition of enemy you have there

BTW you may want to look at the edit I added to my previous comment

[delrem]

149. No, Israel prefers Jewish nationals.

This subject has been gone over interminably.

[shira]

152. Equal rights for all is Israeli law. That's a fact. n/t

[delrem]

154. Jews have more rights in Israel, that's a fact.

It's why you freak at the idea of "a country for all it's citizens", which Israel isn't, now.

[shira]

148. delrem, if you're truly for equality of persons before the law...

...then start with the refugees. In no other case outside of the Palestinians do generations of refugees exist. In no other situation does the number of refugees increase exponentially over time.

As much as you might blame Israel for creating the Palestinian refugee crisis, like any other country during the WW2 era including the same number of Jews ousted from Arab countries, it's not Israel who has perpetuated the Palestinian refugee crisis. The blame for that lies at the feet of the Arab world and UN or UNRWA who want these refugees stateless, living in misery, and angry. Any other people born in their respective countries would be citizens, and not doomed to refugee status in camps living under deplorable conditions under apartheid status (being non-citizens).

They are not equal before the law.

And not a damned one of the so-called anti-racist, progressive left hypocritical defamers of Israel gives a flying shit, except to KEEP using these people as sticks to beat the 'Zionists' with.

Let's start with the equal rights of these people before the law, shall we...

[delrem]

150. I agree with international humanitarian law w.r.t. RoR. You don't.

[shira]

153. Of course you agree. It's inhumane apartheid policy vs. refugees...

...that you wholeheartedly endorse!

And what's funny (or sad) is that you sit there pretending to care about Palestinian equal rights under law.

How shameful.

Of course, you're not shamed. No more than a dog licking its balls in public....

[delrem]

155. OK, should this be alerted on? Or should it stand as demonstration of shira's ugliness?

eta: I'm permanently done with shira (full ignore- no more contact)

[shira]

156. Delrem - here's a visual of the crime against humanity you support

[azurnoir]

157. shira why do you choose a chart in Norwegian? flyktninger means refugee

but once again why Norwegian, seems ummm strange

[shira]

162. Why do you support such a war crime vs. so many Palestinians? n/t

[azurnoir]

98. well for one of those mentioned I think this covers it well

Glittering Generality

Simply put, the glittering generality is name ca
lling in reverse. Instead of trying to attach
negative meanings to ideas or people, glitteri
ng generalities use positive phrases, which the
audience are attached to, in order to lend a posi
tive image to things. Words such as 'freedom',
'civilization', 'motherhood', 'liberty', 'equality',
'science', and 'democracy' have these positive
associations for most people. These words mean
different things to different people, but are
used to gain the approval of an audience, even
when they aren't used in their standard ways.
Consider the use of the term 'freedom fighter
', which is supposed to gain approval for
terrorism by using the word 'freedom'. Or, consid
er why it is so beneficial to bring home the
point that Israel is a democracy.
Israel is a Western democracy in the middle of
the Middle East. It stands for freedom, equal
rights for all; it is a civilized country whose op
era, ballet, and world-class universities ensure
that Israeli culture is very advanced. These po
ints can be made again and again, so that
listeners in the West associate the country with
positive concepts, and come to side with
Israel.
Enemies of Israel will be keen to cast doubt on
Israeli claims to be democratic, to guarantee
freedom for all, and so on. In place of these 'gli
ttering generalities' favourable to Israel, they
will associate Palestinian behaviour, including te
rrorism, with terms like 'anti-colonialist' and
'freedom'

http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf

it's not really a matter of distinguishing, IMO anyway

[shira]

95. Israel doesn't attempt to combat bigotry?

[azurnoir]

97. Wahhabi was acting President of Israel when the President Moshe Katzav stepped down

because of pending rape charges , and every other possibility was on vacation

is that more 'glittering generality'? and BTW I do appreciate your vid from EldarofZyon a site that was banned from DU2

[shira]

99. Again, Israel doesn't attempt to combat bigotry? Wanna take that back? n/t

[azurnoir]

100. Is Israel combatting the Nakba Law? n/t

[shira]

101. You wrote they weren't attempting to combat bigotry.

You were wrong, weren't you?

And the Nakba law isn't racist. Tell me why you think Israelis should mourn their enemies' attempt to massacre them?

[azurnoir]

102. so you think the Nakba Law is not bigotry? case closed

and your rightist video amounted to folks saying in 1952 that there was no race problem in the US because Jackie Robinson was allowed into the major leagues

[shira]

103. Explain how it's bigotry. Israel's enemies failed to massacre the Israelis....

Why should Israelis mourn that?



"Rightist" video?

Funny what you consider rightist since you adamantly support a future Palestine run by the most insanely extreme rightists. You support rightwing BDS, etc...

The video doesn't claim racism doesn't exist - only that it's not nearly as bad as you try making it out to be.

[azurnoir]

107. "Tell me why you think Israelis should mourn their enemies' attempt to massacre them?" -shira quote

Last edited Fri Jun 7, 2013, 04:56 AM - Edit history (1)

those enemies as you put it are Israeli citizens remember? the ones you are attempting to tell us there is no bigotry against, however you've just proven my point

101. You wrote they weren't attempting to combat bigotry.

View profile
You were wrong, weren't you?

And the Nakba law isn't racist. Tell me why you think Israelis should mourn their enemies' attempt to massacre them?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113442437#post101

[shira]

108. You still haven't answered me. Why should Israelis mourn their enemies'....

..attempts to massacre them? Their enemies being those who attacked them in 1947-48, those who support "armed resistance" vs. innocents, and those who are working hard for a 1-state solution (with a little help from their bigoted western friends).

Do you believe all Israel's Arabs think alike, are for terror attacks, and want Israel eliminated and its Jews killed or ethnically cleansed?

[azurnoir]

110. The law is aimed at Arab citizens of Israel

and they are mourning not celebrating

[shira]

111. It's not aimed at Arabs willing to live at peace in a 2 state solution. n/t

[azurnoir]

112. The law applies to Arab citizens of Israel

the ones you claim have complete equality, that they wish to mourn their losses in no way should make them enemies of the state

[shira]

114. Do you even know what the Nakba law is? n/t

[azurnoir]

115. yes I do why?

are you claiming that Israeli Arabs are exempt?

[shira]

116. I don't think you do. Please explain it in 1-2 sentences. n/t

[azurnoir]

117. It penalizes commemoration of the Nakba

albeit that penalty was reduced from the original bill that wanted commemorating the Nakba a felony

[shira]

119. It withdraws state funding from anti-Israel organizations against Israel's existence.

There's no racism there.

[azurnoir]

121. anti-Israel organizations? I've seen your concept of anti-Israel

and it seems to apply to anything that does not agree with Israel's current government

[shira]

122. Says you who was for, against, and indifferent about full RoR. n/t

[azurnoir]

130. basically I'm sort torn about RoR

but explain to us why it's okay for Jews from anywhere but not anyone else, including those born in Israel?

[shira]

136. Jews need a haven, ergo the Jewish state. Palestinians should have every right...

...to a RoR to their own state. What's difficult about that?

And 99% of all refugees were born outside of Israel, and therefore would not be considered refugees in any other scenario.

[delrem]

133. No, that's not the Nakba law, impish one. Not even a good try.

[shira]

134. Impish one? Not Loser? What's next? Enlighten us all on the law. n/t

[delrem]

138. Why should I enlighten you on the Nakba law, little imp?

You've gone this long without having a clue, I figure that shows you prefer it that way. Or, you could try to google the source like everyone else does.

[shira]

139. Because you don't really know what you're talking about. I'm right about the law...

...and rather than come back with something substantive, you go all ad-hominem.

You've got nothing.

[delrem]

151. Your explanation doesn't even reference the term 'Nakba', impish one.

[Israeli]

106. none so blind as those that refuse to see azurnoir ;)

The oppressive right-wing majority in the Knesset worked hard, deep into the night, to add vile racist stains to our law books

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/press_releases/1301121533/

This is a day of infamy in the history of our legislature, a big step in the process of making this a racist and sinister country .

snip....

Amd with regard to the "Nakba Law", its only purpose is gagging and curtailing the Freedom of Speech. Similar to the proposed 'Boycott Law', still under deliberation in the Knesset, its goal is to silence opponents of the right-wing regime through economic penalties. This law will not prevent Israel's Arab citizens from remembering that creation of the state caused severe injustice to their people. Nor will it prevent critical minded Jewish citizens from exploring and throwing light into dark corners of their country's past. It will just have the effect of making the expressing of critical opinions an offence carrying the penalty of heavy monetary fines – and by instituting such penalties inside the country, it would further undermine Israel's position in the International Arena.

[azurnoir]

113. well according to the person I'm currently debating on this

any Israeli Arab wanting to observe Nakba Day doesn't want to live in peace with Israel

[shira]

125. But you don't even know that the Nakba law doesn't apply to individual Israeli Arabs....

State funding is pulled from certain organizations, not individuals.

You're freaking out over make-believe bullshit.

[azurnoir]

127. excuse the Nakba law by any means you wish

the law is meant to repress free speech period and is aimed at Israeli Arabs

[shira]

129. It pulls funding from state funded organizations against Israel's existence....

In your attempt to blame the 'Zionists' of bigotry, you expose your own.

[azurnoir]

131. you've already said that

I gvuess any organization wishing to commemorate the loss of property by Arab Israel's is anti-Israel in book

[Israeli]

158. that person

should read this then :

Chilling effect of the Nakba Law on Israel's human rights

@ http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/chilling-effect-of-the-nakba-law-on-israel-s-human-rights-1.430942

and here :

@
http://www.acri.org.il/en/2011/05/15/%E2%80%9Cthe-nakba-law%E2%80%9D-and-its-implications/

It is our opinion that the law in question represents a gross and outrageous violation of the right to equality in Israel, as well as the right to freedom of political expression and artistic expression; that the law significantly harms personal dignity and collective group dignity as well as other constitutional rights. It sets a new record in the restriction of basic civil liberties, utilizing unprecedented grounds as its justification. Throughout the legislative process we repeatedly expressed this position, which received broad support from many groups, but to our deep dismay the Knesset ultimately chose to pass this amendment into law, albeit with a different version from that which was originally proposed. It is impossible to view the law in isolation from its context – a rising tide of anti-democratic legislation introduced in the Knesset often aimed at harming the rights of Israel’s Arab citizens.

but I very much doubt she cares about the civil rights of anyone outside of her own tribe .

[azurnoir]

161. well that poster seems willing to spin anything that's for sure

the Nakba Law the 'Family (anti)reunification act doesn't matter if Israel does it it's fair and just

[Israeli]

164. could you tell that person , please ....

that I am concerned with the civil rights of all Israelis be they male/female, black/white, Ashkenazi/Mizrahi , Christian/Muslim ..... Jew or goy .

Her tribe care only for themselves .

[shira]

163. Israeli - if you cared about the civil rights of Palestinians....

...then you would advocate for their rights in Gaza, for example, where they have few rights under the Hamas government.

You'd advocate for the refugees living under apartheid conditions throughout the mideast.

If you cared.

But you don't.

[azurnoir]

88. who's "everyone' in your book shira?

is that the 'bandwagon' hasbara technique?

Bandwagon

Most people, when in doubt, are happy to do
what other people are doing. This is the
bandwagon effect. People are happy to be part
of the crowd, and subtle manipulators can
play on this desire by emphasizing the large si
ze of their support. Although it is reasonable
that people are given a chance to find out how many other supporters a speaker or movement
has, often it is possible to create the impressi
on of extensive support - through gathering all
supporters in one place, or through poorly conduc
ted opinion polls - in an attempt to persuade
people who are keen to follow the crowd.
Israel activists can commission opinion polls am
ongst groups who favour Israel, and use these
to give the impression that Israel is the 'tea
m to support'. Demonstrations, and even photos
that give the impression of large numbers can help
to create the impression that Israel is even
more popular than it is.

I see you using Glittering Generality here too

Glittering Generality

Simply put, the glittering generality is name ca
lling in reverse. Instead of trying to attach
negative meanings to ideas or people, glitteri
ng generalities use positive phrases, which the
audience are attached to, in order to lend a posi
tive image to things. Words such as 'freedom',
'civilization', 'motherhood', 'liberty', 'equality',
'science', and 'democracy' have these positive
associations for most people. These words mean
different things to different people, but are
used to gain the approval of an audience, even
when they aren't used in their standard ways.
Consider the use of the term 'freedom fighter
', which is supposed to gain approval for
terrorism by using the word 'freedom'. Or, consid
er why it is so beneficial to bring home the
point that Israel is a democracy.
Israel is a Western democracy in the middle of
the Middle East. It stands for freedom, equal
rights for all; it is a civilized country whose op
era, ballet, and world-class universities ensure
that Israeli culture is very advanced. These po
ints can be made again and again, so that
listeners in the West associate the country with
positive concepts, and come to side with
Israel.
Enemies of Israel will be keen to cast doubt on
Israeli claims to be democratic, to guarantee
freedom for all, and so on. In place of these 'gli
ttering generalities' favourable to Israel, they
will associate Palestinian behaviour, including te
rrorism, with terms like 'anti-colonialist' and
'freedom'

http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf

[shira]

89. There Are None So Blind As Those Who Will Not See. n/t

[azurnoir]

90. well I would hope some eyes have been opened

by the Global Language Dictionary, it helps to translate lots here

[delrem]

18. Thanks for the education. nt

[azurnoir]

104. That it has been indeed n/t

[LeftishBrit]

96. Strongly agree

Except that I am not sure that the 'good guys' have won in America (or the UK, or Europe). Certainly, many evils have been conquered. but some evils are getting worse, especially poverty and economic injustice.

As regards Israel: the RW settlers and their supporters are as much of a threat to Israel's survival as a democratic Jewish state as anyone.