It's time for Israel to separate religion and state

[azurnoir]

Last edited Sat Feb 4, 2012, 07:00 PM - Edit history (1)

According to John Lennon, "God is a concept by which we measure our pain." That means that Israel is apparently a nation in great pain. According to a sensational survey by the Guttman Center, 80 percent of Israeli Jews believe in God. Ostensibly this is a harsh statistic. Gideon Levy's heartfelt moan, as expressed in his opinion piece "God have mercy on us," which appeared in this newspaper earlier this week, is understandable.

<snip>

We also have to factor in the existential confusion created by Zionism. The Jewish nation is the only one in the world defined by religion. We can't expect the average Jewish Israeli to pave his way independently through the maze of identities, and to understand whether and how it is even possible to belong to the Jewish people and the Jewish state without believing in the Jewish religion.

In national terms, Levy did a good job of pointing to the truly disturbing statistic in the survey - 70 percent of those polled seriously believe the Jews are the "Chosen People." He rightly derived the far-reaching political meaning of that fact. But what is disturbing about those who believe in the theory of the Chosen People is the fear that they are not particularly smart. It's not only the infantile theological level that a Western person is capable of reaching even today, but also the strange disregard of the Holocaust and its religious implications. The methodical and efficient murder of six million Jews should at least have constituted a challenge to this arrogant belief in "You have chosen us."

<snip>

America is a very religious nation. And many Germans and Frenchmen believe in God, too. But they don't involve Him in the legislative, executive and judicial branches. Large numbers of Israelis are convinced that black cats bring bad luck, or have an extreme emotional attachment to their soccer team. They don't dream of passing regulations that will require spitting on the sidewalk each time a black cat crosses it, and don't expect their personal identification with Hapoel or Beitar to be embraced by everyone.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/it-s-time-for-israel-to-separate-religion-and-state-1.410118
_____________________________________________________________________

more about the poll that was undertaken in 2009 but not published till this year


http://www.idi.org.il/sites/english/PublicationsCatalog/Pages/Book_7783/Main.aspx


added later PDF of poll

http://www.idi.org.il/sites/english/events/Other_Events/Documents/GuttmanAviChaiReport2012_EngFinal.pdf

[Xipe Totec]

1. Can there be a justification for the Jewish state, outside of religion?

If Israel is not the promised land because the bible says so; if Israel is not sacred land, then what binds Israel?

[Ruby the Liberal]

2. Ha Shoah

Never again.

[Scootaloo]

3. And yet Israel is run by a military authority

its citizens have no guaranteed rights
Its neighbors are seen as avenues of expanded borders
The government of Israel maintains authority mainly through the exploitation of dead jews to cause fear in living ones.

I don't think it's so much "never again" as it is "why outsource?"

[Ruby the Liberal]

4. WTF are you talking about?

Thanks in advance.

[Scootaloo]

6. Did I stutter?

I double-checked, it's all spelled correctly. And I'm pretty sure you're literate. So, what's the holdup here? Do you need an explanation about anything in particular?

In Israel, there is a nation with no constitution, ruled by its military forces (perhaps not as directly as in a Banana Republic junta, but the IDF still has massive, massive political and civil authority). Israel's neighbors are seen as potential (or in the case off the West bank, Golan Heights, and Shebaa, actual) routes of colonial conquest and expansion, and the governments that comes to power do so mostly through bloody shirt tactics; using dead Jews to terrorize the living ones.

This last part is important. In order to ensure their continued power, the major parties of Israel need Jews to keep dying. There has to be enough blood to keep that shirt supple, else it won't wave so well. I'm sure you've seen how here in America, politicians continue to wave the tattered remains of 9/11 victims for their own political gain.. .And i'm sure you've seen how effective this tactic is. And most Americans lack that whole cultural psychological scarring that many Israelis do, from the purges of the 20th century. I imagine such a thing could be very easily manipulated for crass political means, don't you?

As for my comment of "why outsource," well, fold it all together. Israeli policies are a major - not the sole, but a major - contributor to the death of Israelis. This is ensured in large part by the unity between the military and civil authorities in the state, who use their joint authority to perpetuate states of strife with their immediate neighbors, and they clearly have nothing to actually gain from halting said strife (What, protect the people? PFFFFF!) With a lack of a constitution, the people of Israel themselves really have nowhere to turn; how many times have decisions rendered by the "Supreme court" of Israel just been outright ignored when convenient for the military / government?

The system in place relies on keeping Israelis docile through intimidation; either by waving those bloody shirts, or by telling the people, "Oh, Iran is going to kill you all. Egypt is going to kill you all. Turkey is going to kill you all. You're all going into the ovens unless you put us in charge!" A cowed people will look at the scary people beyond those shaky sort-of borders, and not at the messed-up system standing behind them.

So, what would YOU call a social system that relies on scaring the shit out of Jews, enforced with ethnic segregation, ghettoization, and the occasional heap of bloody body parts?

[oberliner]

9. Israel is a democracy

If people don't like the government, they can vote them out of office.

[Scootaloo]

19. Yes, they have the ability to vote

They van vote one government out of office, and then install another one that is identical in every way, except the names on the seating chart. And then if they dislike that one, it's possible to replace it with hte prior government. Yes indeed, it's a Democracy. So is Singapore.

[holdencaufield]

38. And that is different to any other democracy...

...HOW?

You're claim is that the government of Tzipi Livni was ideologically identical to that of Benjamin Netanyahu?

I could make the same assertion that there is no difference between the Bush and Obama administrations. Most of the parliamentarians are the same in both administrations, they are engaged in the same wars, have the majority of the same policies and share equal responsibility for a poor economy.

Is, in your opinion, the USA a Military Dictatorship?

Look, I understand that there are people working strenuously to make sure that the vilification of Israel becomes a core principle of the Democratic Party Platform, but they should really stick to arguments that make logical sense, otherwise, people might just think they are crazy.

[Ken Burch]

77. Actually, some days I think the U.S. IS a military dictatorship.

(that's unrelated to any feelings I have about Israel, though).

And no, nobody is trying to "vilify" Israel...just to make its government(and remember, the government isn't synonymous with either the nation or the people) stop doing some unjust things. That isn't vilification, it's solidarity with an oppressed group of people. It's not as if everything the Israeli government does in the name of "security" MUST be totally beyond discussion or debate. It's a grown-up country and its leaders should be able to take their lumps like the leaders of any other state.

[oberliner]

50. Would you characterize the US that way as well?

Identical government - different names on the seating chart?

[pelsar]

17. wrong forum, wrong country

This is ensured in large part by the unity between the military and civil authorities in the state, who use their joint authority to perpetuate states of strife with their immediate neighbors, and they clearly have nothing to actually gain from halting said strife

perhaps those "authorities (civil and military) might gain keeping their own children and grandchildren and nieces and nephews a bit safer and not coming home minus a few arms and legs or in a box..... (yes, their kids are also on the front line...and beyond).


The system in place relies on keeping Israelis docile through intimidation HUH?
and how is this system "intimidating us"?

we just had 500,000 in the street....got prices reduced on basic foods, taxes raised on the rich and a new system for buying apartments in the works. seems to me the "authorities are rather intimidated by the population and not the other way around. Took 4 ladies to get israel out of Lebanon....just 4 ladies (maybe your just "jealous" of how the israeli population actually has influence on the politicians...)
_______

you should take your "boiler plate one size fits all post" and perhaps try it in the Philippine forum, perhaps there it will take, Israel is not america

[Scootaloo]

20. It does give me hope for Israel

My entire point, boiled down, is that I believe the Israelis deserve better than what they have in government.

No, Israel is not America. But nor is Israel the nest of angels you seem to wish it to be.

As for being intimidated? Ahem. "IRAN WANTS TO WIPE US OFF THE MAP! THE PALESTINIANS WILL PUSH US INTO THE SEA! EVERYONE IS OUT TO GET US BE AFRAID BE AFRAID WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!" - that's your government, chief. if you don't buy that bullshit, well, kudos to you. But the attempt to make you shit yourself in fear is definitely present. If you choose to pretend otherwise, your call.

[pelsar]

24. your entire point was that the military and politicians control the people by keeping them afraid

what israel is, and what most countries would love to have, is a govt that does in fact react to the population. Case in point the 500,000 in the street for a few weeks and and weekend, not a smidgen of violence, no police over time, zilch, nothing but good will, pressure on the govt and change that came almost immediately in economic policies.

list another country that had that happened.....just one, if you don't mind just ONE!

the "govt in chief" is hardly the only one that believes what you wrote, some politicians disagree, some agree, and in fact "SOME GENERALS DISAGREE and do some in the MILITARY INTELLIGENCE.

OMG, what just happened to your little theory over this military and political establishment trying to push fear down the throats of the population.oh yea, since most of the military is made-up of reservists, who are infact civilians, are they too part of the "military fear mongering" that your pushing?


I doubt you can read minds and predict the future, hence you beliefs in the future is no more valid than Netanyahu's or those that disagree. Perhaps your the one who is naive, maybe your similar to Chamberlin with his "peace in our time".

[Ruby the Liberal]

25. Thats rather black and white thinking there.

So they are either exist to "exploit dead jews" or are a "nest of angels"?

[Scootaloo]

53. Internet slapfights tend to be painted in broad strokes of basic colors

You, and many others responding to me, seem to believe just that; that Israel is a nest of angels. apparently it's just impossible to think that Israel's politicians will behave like politicians; exploiting tragedy for political gain. It's apparently impossible to think that Israel, as a nation with a strong and pervasive military and no common body of civil law, might be a nation where the military holds undue sway over civil administration. Why? Apparently just because it's Israel and Israel is somehow special and utterly immune to the failings of other, lesser nations.

So yes, evidently it's a "nest of angels" there in the government of Israel.

I'll bet you think the same of the American government too, though, right? Surely the events and deaths of 9/11 have never been exploited for political gain - we're the shining city on a hill, aren't we?!

[Ruby the Liberal]

54. Well then quit slapping people with broad strokes.

Problem solved.

[pelsar]

56. the response to you is your simplistic black and white version...that you chose to write up

your wrote the post, it appears you believe in what you wrote, and it was simply explained to you how your parallels to america are wrong. The israeli population does not "cower" in fear from what the politicians say, the bulk of israels military are the reserves, i.e. civilians hence the militarys influence is not as great as you make it out to be.

israeli politicians have a high stake in wars...unlike those in america, it will be their nephews, nieces, sons and daughter doing the fighting, hence your simplistic "they like wars" makes them in to some kind of monsters

Finally if you want more proof, as i wrote, take a look at israeli street protests vers those you see in the arab world or in the western world: Israeli street protests actually cause policy changes, something you don't see so much in other countries

in israel its the politicians that are afraid of the people, not as per your belief.

your reaction; nest of angles" is part of your simplistic, black and white version, that has little to do with reality.

[Shaktimaan]

74. Hahahaha!

So after making a series of ignorant and inflammatory statements accusing Israel of being ruled by a military government that manufactured fear and caused the deaths of sacrificial Israelis to keep its disenfranchised, rights-less civilians in a state of perpetual terror, you're now perturbed that people are challenging your assertions?

No one said that Israel is a "nest of angels" whatever that is. We were just taking YOUR absurd argument apart at the joints, as we should have done. If you're going to post outright hyperbole and lies then you can't be upset when people critique them.

But to try and now pretend that you only ever offered a nuanced discussion about the relative power that the IDF might wield in Israel's civil sphere only to be attacked by us zealots who refuse to see Israel as anything but perfect? That's really just as bad. You were arguing that Israelis have no rights under the law. Contradicting that lie is not the same thing as saying that Israel is a utopia that can't be criticized ever.

Internet slapfights tend to be painted in broad strokes of basic colors

No. Internet slap fights WITH YOU tend to be painted in broad strokes of basic colors. They're also retarded beyond belief.

[azurnoir]

29. so th Israeli government controls food prices? "Surge in food prices since holidays"

Prices of some products on supermarket shelves have again skyrocketed, according to a "Globes" investigation at retailers.

For example, the price of Osem Investments Ltd's (TASE: OSEM)'s real powdered chicken soup has risen 150% at Shufersal Ltd. (TASE:SAE) discount chain Shufersal Deal from its price on the eve of Rosh Hashana on September 26, 2011, to NIS 25. The price of this product at Alon Holdings Blue Square - Israel Ltd. (NYSE: BSI; TASE: BSI) chain Mega has risen 140%, and it has risen 114% at Rami Levy Chain Stores Hashikma Marketing 2006 Ltd. (TASE:RMLI) to NIS 17. Osem's real powdered chicken soup costs 47% more at Shufersal Deal than at Rami Levy.

http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=1000711934&fid=1725

apparently they are not doing too well

[pelsar]

31. u lose again - check in to the food staples (some are supervised)

Also Wednesday, the Mega Retail company announced a 10% discount on goods supervised by the government – including basic products like milk, bread, sour cream, butter, yellow cheese and eggs.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4088876,00.html
____

but keep on trying, its always fun to watch you try to diss israel with partial information

but if you want to check in to rising prices in israel, check out gasoline and electricity...i'm sure you'll like those changes

[azurnoir]

33. I guess those ads from Meir Panim begging money cause 1 in 3 Israeli kids are going are going hungry

are false?

or are you saying that my tax dollars are providing a comfortable life style in a foregn country ? the US funds nearly 25% of Israel's military budget

[pelsar]

47. ....subject change

i believe the discussion was about the israeli govt/military establishment and its relationship to the "people."
____

if your interested in the poverty that exists in israel, the exploration of the "guest workers", the people who don't serve in the IDF for non ideological reasons, the rich/poor gap in income, the inequality of federal funds to the locals, the private health care and its implications, and the host of other imperfections that exist within israel, just start a post and i'll answer as always as honestly as i can.

i suggest it for you, its really easy to bash israel on its economic inequality within the country itself, or hit about the inequality of who serves in the army and who doesn't...very unequal.

go for it, you'll have an endless amount of information-but most important of all. Clearly state that your posts are not meant for comparisons to other societies....

[azurnoir]

48. well yes the Israeli government subsidizes almost everything

food, housing, (extra benefits for moving to Sderot), education, healthcare, and as you pointed out gas and energy which still cost more than in the US
_______________________________________________________________________

side note

all of this does point out the hypocrisy of the Republican candidates for US President that your government seems to support, they denounce these for things for Americans

[sabbat hunter]

18. England does not have a constitution either

or at least a formal written one. Does that make them ruled by its military?

[Scootaloo]

21. Military rule is what makes someone ruled by the military

The lack of a common body of law simply helps it along. It's not cause-and-effect, nor did I say it was.

[holdencaufield]

22. Remind me again...

... how many SERVING IDF officers are currently in the Knesset? How many hold government positions outside of the military?

I'm no constitutional expert, but I think it's a requirement of military law that the military, not elected civilians, must be in control.

[Scootaloo]

23. You're thinking "junta"

Which, as I already said, isn't the case in Israel. It's sort of like the case of Sparta - Sparta was ruled by nobles who, generally, didn't go out and fight, themselves. However all of them HAD been soldiers, and the military structure was enforced and protected through their rulership.

Are any of you going to respond o the stuff I said, or can I just sit back and let you folks make shit up, misread, and flail at windmills, here?

[holdencaufield]

40. Israel has nobles?

The things you learn by coming to DU.

Israel and Switzerland are ruled by politicians, all of who have participated in mandatory military service and all of whom support the military infrastructure by annually approving funding to maintain it -- Switzerland is a military dictatorship?

Is the Swiss difference the lower percentage of Hebraic citizens?

[Scootaloo]

51. Did I say Israel had nobles? Don't be obtuse, please

No, the difference is that the Swiss armed forces do not hold the sort of authority over the civil activities of Switzerland that the IDF holds in Israel. At least I'm pretty sure that the military of Switzerland does not interfere in the enrollment processes of Swiss higher education, for example. I'm sure Ynet is a haven of slavering antisemitic propaganda, of course.

Since I appear to be a dink who can't actually get a link to appear, here's the article I'm referencing, there; http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3574835,00.html

I look forward to your next attempt to argue against something I've not said, Holden.

[pelsar]

61. still confused i see....

the article is about the IDF allowing entry of Palestinians in to Israel....i.e. security, which is well within the bounds of the IDF's responsibility.

try again.....this will be a case of whether or not your opinion is based on real information or simply a preferred view you have irreguardless of any new information you may get.

whether your opinion is religious/faith based or based on actual evidence.....

[azurnoir]

62. Thanx here is the article-University heads: IDF interfering in enrollment process

In letter to Barak, Council of University Presidents say Israeli institutions 'open to all those who meet academic demands, irrespective of race, sex, religion or nationality'; professors join petition against restrictions imposed on Palestinian students

In a harsh letter to Defense Minister Ehud Barak, the Council of University Presidents (CUP) demanded Tuesday that the security establishment stop intervening in the enrollment process at Israel's higher education institutions.

"This constitutes blatant and harmful intervention on the part of military elements in considerations that are strictly academic," the university heads said in the letter, which was drafted in protest of the disqualification of students, particularity Palestinian, from taking certain courses or from enrolling in Israeli academic institutions altogether.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3574835,00.html

but you think this ok as long as it can be labeled security, got it

[pelsar]

65. its is their job....isn't it (confused about the IDF's job?)

whether or not their going "to far" is a matter of degree. Just the fact that the universities are protesting means they are not afraid of the military establishment, who does infact give the universities money for their own purposes

and that was the jist of the original posts: that the israeli populace is being cowered by the govt/military.
____

so once again we come to another question that you won't be able to answer:

do you agree with what the original poster said, that the military/govt are attempting to "cower" the israeli population and have a virtual dictatorship.

(the reason i believe you won't answer it, is that if you agree with the poster, it shows little knowledge of israel, if you disagree, then your giving a back-handed compliment to the workings of israeli democracy, which you will never do, for reasons that are of your own and never explained

[azurnoir]

66. and once again you forget to differentiate

don't feel too bad, I'm used to it

as to the Israeli governments responsiveness to the majority Israeli people that is of true in most cases the exceptions would be Haredi who cause embarrassment by dressing Holocaust garb among other things and settlers when they attack or impede IDF, my problems with the Israeli government relate to its treatment of Palestinians

now as to the subject of IDF "just doing their job" that may well be however it was Israeli collage professors that in the linked article were protesting the IDF "just doing their job"

[pelsar]

67. and the professors were doing their job....just as the IDF is

a good working govt has multiple interests with many conflicting one another, this is a good thing, as long as the various parts are not afraid to speak out and pressure where they can...this is an excellent example of just that...and which is why a free press is essential

The original posts that speak of cowering the people, the govt/military dictatorship clearly has little understanding of how vibrant, working democracies actually work.

actual i disagree, with your stated "treatment of the Palestenians" as the problem. From what i can gather you don't have that same problem when the Palestinians "treat the Palestinians that way or worse, or in fact if other nationalities treat the Palestinians worse then the israeli govt. i don't buy that your concern is just their 'treatment"....that i've gathered from you many posts, part of them demonizing the israeli govt on subjects that have nothing to do with the treatment of the Palestinians....

[azurnoir]

30. How many Knesset members served in IDF?

but your 'work around' is noted

[holdencaufield]

39. Glad you mentioned that

There are currently at least forty-five countries that have either mandatory military service or the option of mandatory civilian service. Many of those are in the ultra-enlightened European Union.

However, the only country that gets singled-out for it is -- once again -- Israel.

I *wonder* why that is?

[Scootaloo]

52. Well, I've already poked Singapore over it

And I don't think anyone would question the same statements made about Egypt, Burma, Colombia, Iran... Israel's certainly not the only nation in the world where the military holds undue influence on the civil structure, and if you think it is - or if you think anyone else thinks it is - you're probably not informed enough to speak

Fact is this is also a thread about Israel. Not a thread about Norway (despite your fishing expedition).

[Shaktimaan]

73. This is very incorrect.

In Israel, there is a nation with no constitution, ruled by its military forces (perhaps not as directly as in a Banana Republic junta, but the IDF still has massive, massive political and civil authority).

The IDF takes its orders from the civilian government which is elected by the people. It has NO political or civil authority whatsoever. Israel's government is a fully functional, parliamentary democracy, similar to any other western nation. It's true that Israel has no constitution, just like England. Instead they have a series of Basic Laws that function in a similar way.

In order to ensure their continued power, the major parties of Israel need Jews to keep dying. There has to be enough blood to keep that shirt supple, else it won't wave so well.

Except that Israel and its citizens have tended to support peace through negotiations and have frequently made concessions to that purpose. And unlike in America, in Israel everyone serves in the army. Meaning that the Prime Minister's sons, his daughter, son-in0law, and so on, form the actual troops that are sent into battle. You're actually insinuating that the conflict in all its forms is merely a manufactured entity, created by the government to manipulating its civilians, thus ensuring a perpetual lock on power. WOW! That is just so... juvenile. It's really, really silly. Have you read anything about the recent history of this conflict at all? Or the extended history, for that matter?

With a lack of a constitution, the people of Israel themselves really have nowhere to turn; how many times have decisions rendered by the "Supreme court" of Israel just been outright ignored when convenient for the military / government?

The Israeli Supreme Court frequently hands down decisions that invert military actions and examples of state malfeasance.

The system in place relies on keeping Israelis docile through intimidation...A cowed people will look at the scary people beyond those shaky sort-of borders, and not at the messed-up system standing behind them.

You've clearly never been to Israel, have you? Because I don't know who you're describing there, but it sure isn't the Israelis.

So, what would YOU call a social system that relies on scaring the shit out of Jews, enforced with ethnic segregation, ghettoization, and the occasional heap of bloody body parts?

Good question! Ummm... Europe in the 1940s. Russia in the 19th century, big time! Arab ruled states in the decades following 1948. Palestine in the 1920s - the 1940s. Really lots of places and times. But not current day Israel. Not at all.

[leftynyc]

75. Wow - this could be the most ignorant

thing I've ever seen on an I/P thread and that's really saying something.

[LeftishBrit]

84. Run by a military authority?

Where do you get that idea? Are you confusing Israel with Egypt at the moment?

[azurnoir]

5. Israel's never-ending Holocaust - Merav Michaeli

The Holocaust is the primary way Israel defines itself. And that definition is narrow and ailing in the extreme, because the Holocaust is remembered only in a very specific way, as are its lessons. It has long been used to justify the existence and the necessity of the state, and has been mentioned in the same breath as proof that the state is under a never-ending existential threat.

The Holocaust is the sole prism through which our leadership, followed by society at large, examines every situation. This prism distorts reality and leads inexorably to a forgone conclusion - to the point that former Chief Rabbi Israel Meir Lau announced at a Holocaust Remembrance Day ceremony three years ago that Moses was the first Holocaust survivor. In other words, all our lives are simply one long Shoah.

As a country, as a nation, Israel has never confronted the trauma of the Holocaust. The shock from the terrible tragedy and the guilt feelings of the pre-state Yishuv leadership for not being able to save the Jews of Europe - plus the presence of the men and women who survived and were constant reminders of both traumas - prompted Israel to repress the Holocaust at first, and then to turn it into a placard in the service of the national trauma, to reinforce the constant existential fear and the aggressiveness that comes with it.

The survivors themselves have never been treated right. Just yesterday it was reported, once again, that half of Israel's Holocaust survivors are dependent on welfare stipends and that the government has once again reduced its support of them.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/israel-s-never-ending-holocaust-1.409942


just last week Netanyahu declared that Ahmadinejad was the new Hitler

[Confusious]

7. Wow

"just 2 percent of Israeli youth feel committed to democratic principles after studying the Holocaust and 2.5 percent identify with the suffering of other persecuted nations"

I kind of thought it was low, but not that low. Just wow.

The oppressed become the oppressors.

[oberliner]

11. This is not true

Those numbers quoted are not actually found anywhere in the survey.

[azurnoir]

14. Nor did the editorial say or imply that those numbers were from the survey

which is included in the original OP and does not seem to separate by age, sorry if that was your impression

[oberliner]

15. What survey are they from?

To your understanding, does the article mention where the author pulled those numbers from?

[azurnoir]

26. The article does not say

other than that they were cited in Ha'aretz , so are we to conclude you are claiming the numbers are false?

[oberliner]

34. Yes it does

First paragraph:

Haaretz appeared to be gripped by panic after the Guttman Center-Avi Chai Foundation poll on religion came out last week, as could be seen in the frenzied front-page headline in Friday's paper: "Survey finds record number of Israeli Jews believe in God." But the newspaper wasn't panicking about the right thing.

Later paragraph:

This is how the Holocaust is taught in school, this how it is that Israeli students are taken to visit death camps - and how it came to be that, as Haaretz reported on Friday, just 2 percent of Israeli youth feel committed to democratic principles after studying the Holocaust and 2.5 percent identify with the suffering of other persecuted nations, but 12 percent feel committed to "significant" service in the Israel Defense Forces.

[azurnoir]

58. Two seperate paragraphs the paragraph containing the information does not say it came from the study

it says it came from 'Friday's' edition of Ha'aretz, that is all nothing more

[oberliner]

59. I can't tell if you are kidding are not

You think the "survey published in Ha'aretz in Friday" referenced in the first paragraph and the "survey published in Ha'aretz on Friday" referenced in the later paragraph are not the same surveys?

[azurnoir]

60. well if it said that you'd gave a point however it does not say that

Here is what it says

So it is that we don't have any rivals, adversaries or even enemies. Only Hitlers. This is how the Holocaust is taught in school, this how it is that Israeli students are taken to visit death camps - and how it came to be that, as Haaretz reported on Friday, just 2 percent of Israeli youth feel committed to democratic principles after studying the Holocaust and 2.5 percent identify with the suffering of other persecuted nations, but 12 percent feel committed to "significant" service in the Israel Defense Forces.

it just say reported on Friday it does not say where from

[oberliner]

63. Ok - you're not kidding

Wow - that's pretty wild.

[Behind the Aegis]

64. You do realize they are two different polls right?

[oberliner]

68. Can you provide links to the polls?

Or at least to where they are hosted?

[Behind the Aegis]

69. I haven't been able to find either one online.

You might be able to contact the two sponsors and get a copy. I would especially be interested in the Holcaust one.

Survey: Record number of Israeli Jews believe in God

Israeli survey finds school Holocaust lessons have minimal impact

Both articles appeared in Ha'aretz Friday last. The first one is from The Avi Chai Foundation (specifically thru the Guttman Center). I haven't checked the website to see if it (the poll) is listed. The second one is from The Massuah Institute for Holocaust Studies. I have checked their site and couldn't find the poll. My Hebrew is not good enough to search the Hebrew version of the site.

This is but one reason why the OP article is so shitty. It makes melds they surveys, and makes conclusions from the meld, not the surveys. The OP is an example of horrible writing and reminds us, like assholes, every one has an opinion and most of them stink!

[azurnoir]

70. the Guttman Center/Avi Cha poll is linked to in the OP second link it was taken from their website

the poll was taken in 2009 but not published till this year now in investigating the quibbled over stats I found several mentions of a poll of high school students done also in 2009 by the same Guttman Institute/Avi Chai however direct links to that poll I have not been able to find

eta PDF to poll taken from link in OP

http://www.idi.org.il/sites/english/events/Other_Events/Documents/GuttmanAviChaiReport2012_EngFinal.pdf

[oberliner]

71. Which poll is that?

The one from the earlier paragraph or the later paragraph?

[azurnoir]

72. The one in the OP

you do know what an OP is right? After all you corrected me in an earlier post

[oberliner]

10. Yes, the Holocaust did damage to generations of people

And these are the lucky ones who managed to have family that lived through it.

[azurnoir]

27. yes apparently the damage is still being done right now

as I have seen more than once people most likely born in the 1980's speaking of the Holocaust as if it happened a few years ago and losing half their families as if it were siblings rather than Grand Aunts and Uncles cousins ect that lived 65 to 70 years ago and it is of question to some extent if they would ever have known in any event

[oberliner]

36. Agreed

It does often feel that way sadly.

[Jefferson23]

55. +1. The abuse of it has been well documented and the author adds

the impact of it on the people as..." What we consider rational is actually a frightened, defensive, aggressive pattern. Our current leaders have made Israeli Judaism just a post-traumatic syndrome, while they lead us to self-destruction. (end)

I would not agree those leaders, and the elites in the US and abroad did not suffer PTS who abuse/ abused
it for political gain actually suffered from it themselves.

[Xipe Totec]

12. But does a secular Israel do honor to that memory?

What is being preserved?

What survives?

[Ruby the Liberal]

32. That depends on how you view "Jews"

as a religion or a race?

[Xipe Totec]

41. Do you consider Jews a race?

It seems very swampy ground to me. I look at my Jewish friends and acquaintances, and I see every skin color, every body shape, every ethnic group represented. And what about adoptions; are children adopted into Jewish families not really Jews?

And if one considers the Jewish people a race, would that mean that the objective of a secular Jewish state would be to maintain that racial purity? That's a minefield.

I consider Jews a culture; a way of life. Religion is part of that way of life. The belief that Israel is the rightful place for Jews stems from that religion. Without that biblical underpinning, Israel is just a place like any other place.

[Ruby the Liberal]

42. Operation Solomon speaks to this (Ethiopian Jews)

I believe 'jew' to be a race just as I do arab, persian, asian, etc... so yes, this does 'color' my view (for lack of a better term).

I think a lot of confusion on this topic depends on that definition. You note cultural jews, of course there are religion identified jews, and there are converts/adoptions/mixed marriages.

If any other people had been singled out for extermination as the Jews were in HaShoah, then I would be just as for a homeland as I am for the Jewish state's existence.

[Xipe Totec]

43. You should know that you are speaking to a descendant of Sephardic Jews, expelled from Spain in 1492

Yet here I am, more than 500 years later, after that Holocaust.

Ethnically I'm Semitic, on my mother's blood line, and my father's blood line.

How do I know? By DNA tests.

Culturally, I'm Mexican, and Spanish, and Catholic, and secular...

If anybody has a 'racial' claim to that part of the world, it should be the Sephardi.

But why cling to a little sliver or land, when you can lay claim to the entire world as your homeland?

[Ruby the Liberal]

44. Greetings from ashkenazi land

from the ex spouse of a sephardi.



Obviously, we will have to disagree on degrees of "claim".

Not sure what you mean by 'laying claim to the entire world'. This nation was dust in the desert that the Jews were given as a safe haven after HaShoah.

What would you have done differently to ensure protection, self-governance and survival in 1948?

[Xipe Totec]

45. It's late; I'll owe you a reply

Warmest greetings.

I'll give your question due thought and consideration.

[Xipe Totec]

57. What I would have done differently....

Well, what I would have done, would be to find a more defensible place to set my flag; More fertile land, too, and a place that was not so steeped in religious lore.

That's what I would have done, if I did not believe that the Tribe of Judah are the people chosen by God, and that Israel is the promised land.

That's what I would have done as a secular Jew. I mean, really, there are a lot better places in this world to live in. Palestine is not Eden, to my eyes.

So why that particular place?

I don't know.

As far as laying claim to the entire world, I simply mean that we who have lost our way; who no longer remember, or only vaguely remember the culture whence we came, are free to roam the world; to live wherever we please. We are indistinguishable from the rest of humanity. We are humanity. Only those who still remember, who still believe, have some claim to Israel as a special and unique place. That claim is inseparable from Judaism as a religion, but superfluous otherwise.

[Ken Burch]

76. It's not appropriate to use "Never again" in the context of a discussion of religion

Hitler didn't let it go at killing observant Jews. He wiped out the secular and athiest ones too.

Tying Israel to the Jewish religion is unfair to non-religious Israeli Jews...the group that is, after all, the majority within Israeli society.

[Ruby the Liberal]

78. Justification for the Israeli state (the question I was answering)

wasn't about preserving a religion, it was about preserving a people. A people who were exterminated by the millions because of their religion. Hitler didn't have 'shomer shabbat' purity tests.

[Ken Burch]

79. And I agree with you on that.

Now, though, we have to move on and stop acting as if the Palestinians are the next Nazis. What's happening in this day and age has nothing whatsoever to do with what Hitler wanted.

[Ruby the Liberal]

80. So why are you calling me out on noting the holocaust?

Was that not a valid answer to that question, or did you have a different issue that I didn't catch?

[Ken Burch]

81. I thought you were referencing it to reinforce the idea

that religion and state shouldn't be separated. If that wasn't your intent, I'm sorry.

Clearly, Israel COULD protect its Jewish character without having religious control of the state, since that character isn't strictly and absolutely religious.

[Ruby the Liberal]

82. I am anti-theocracy

and that includes a torah-law state, just as it would sharia or whatever the insane GOP has in mind for the US.

[Ken Burch]

83. OK...then apparently we're in agreement.

n/t.

[oberliner]

8. George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'

George Bush has claimed he was on a mission from God when he launched the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, according to a senior Palestinian politician in an interview to be broadcast by the BBC later this month.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa

America doesn't involve God in the legislative, executive, and judicial branches, right?

The OP is one of the stupidest articles I've read in a while.

"According to John Lennon, "God is a concept by which we measure our pain." That means that Israel is apparently a nation in great pain."

An atheist who attacks Israeli Jews for believing in God decides to start his analysis of Israel with a quote from John Lennon?

The whole article is so poorly written - particularly in the excerpts you chose to include here.

[azurnoir]

13. well that is your opinion

and it is hardly a surprise

[oberliner]

16. What's your opinion?

You haven't shared any as yet.

[azurnoir]

28. To a great extent I agree with Ms Michaeli

however I take it you do not

[oberliner]

35. The OP is by Uri Misgav

That's the article I am responding to (and quoting from).

[azurnoir]

37. well I agree with that too n/t

[oberliner]

49. You agree that Israel should separate religion and state?

Even if the majority of Israeli voters do not?

Would the same go for any country?

[ellisonz]

46. No. n/t