For Palestinians, human rights begin at home

[shira]

Democracies do not go to war with each other. This was the revolutionary conclusion of the Israeli-American sociologist, Amitai Etzioni, which helped explain why democratic societies are not only stable societies, but also less inclined to go to war. The opposite is true of countries which lack democracy and the rule of law.

What is true for the rest of the world is also true for the Middle East and the Israeli-Arab conflict. If we want to promote peace and stability in the region, we need to pay more attention to the true benchmarks of democracy, rule of law and respect for basic human rights, and less on forming new states. To put it bluntly – creating a new repressive Islamic state in the region will do no good. So long as there is no real democratic reform in the Palestinian Authority, there will be no peace, nor will quality of life improve for the ordinary Palestinian.

Why is it then, that the international community continues to pour in billions in financial aid to the Palestinian Authority, without any real system of accountability, nor any demand for respect for human rights? I have been asked the same question over and over again. Not by angry European taxpayers who are struggling with their own private economies, but by Palestinian taxi drivers and students who are unhappy with development in the Palestinian territories.

The Palestinian territories not only lack an economy of their own, but are completely dependent on international aid. More importantly, the Palestinian people lack the most basic human rights under their own governing authorities. Since the beginning of this year, two Palestinians have been given jail sentences simply for criticising PLO leader Mahmoud Abbas on their private Facebook walls. This is just one indicator that respect for human rights and freedom is nowhere near what should be expected of a regime which is entirely dependent on Western aid. But those to blame are not only to be found in Ramallah and Gaza, but also in Brussels and Washington D.C.

...

Last week, we began a new campaign in Europe to raise awareness of Palestinian suffering under their own governmental authorities, in Gaza and in the West Bank. In our Palestinian Human Rights Week, we aimed to make the case that being a friend of the Jewish state does not prevent us from also caring for the Palestinian people. The more democratic the Palestinian Authority becomes, the better chance there is that they will also become peaceful neighbours with Israel.

As soon as we mention human rights violations, we Europeans instinctively think of the Israeli Government. However a recent study by the Jerusalem Institute of Justice, called ”Hidden Injustices,” shows that it is the Palestinian governing bodies, not the Israeli Government, who are the greatest abusers of the human rights of the Palestinian people. Only when we have managed to address this issue successfully, can we expect real progress in the peace proccess. Forming another suppressive Islamic state will solve nothing for those Palestinians who are today denied the very basic rights and freedoms that we who are financing their governing authorities take for granted.

more...
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/for-palestinians-human-rights-begin-at-home/

[bravenak]

1. Ridiculous. What a terrible article. So racist, pals bad, Israelis good! Blah,blah,blah.

The occupiers are the biggest abusers of human rights.
They are the reason there is no viable economy.
People aren't stupid enough to keep buying this bull over and over.
Why must it always be said that the suffering of the victims is all their own fault.
Or that their faux government is victimizing them.

I wonder if maybe people who have such strong feelings, and are obviously much more privileged than the average Palestinian can ever start seeing them as they are.
Oppressed.disadvantaged. Human. Worthy of life.
Nobody deserves to live their entire life under occupation, and be told by the occupiers who are victimizing them that they are really holding themselves down. Remember slavery? We still feel the effects from that. It will take decades for them to recover from occupation!!!!

You have one thing right though. Human rights begin at home. Once they have a home I guess they can work on their government. But Israel has to leave first. Or get ready for millions of new voting citizens. And those people will never forget. And the power will shift. Lets hope they forgive.

Do you by any chance read the racist comments to the articles you link. The have some of the most racist people commenting. The insinuate that the Palestinians are not human. Like animals.
Sigh, racists used to say the same thing about blacks. I guess I'll have to let you know when your being racist or posting racist things. Since you probably didn't notice.

[shira]

4. When u see Hamas and the PLO as victims & not oppressors....

...then of course you'll have a problem with articles like these.

Those fundamentalist, theocratic, racist thugs are leading the Palestinian people into oblivion. They've been doing so for the past 80-100 years, actually. Meanwhile, you're cheering them on, anxious to support yet another totalitarian, failed, fascist, warmongering state that will be no better than Jordan or Syria.

Try thinking of Palestinian moderates and seculars under their rule. They're who you should be supporting.

[azurnoir]

6. ah I see more Peace Later how much later shira?

this century????? or when the Palestinians live up to expectations? mean while..........

[shira]

9. Maybe it's time your friends in Palestine call off the war...

...and come to grips with a 2 state solution. Something that's been on the table since 1937.

But you'd rather cheer on the 'resistance', wouldn't you? And then complain about peace later?

[azurnoir]

11. Palestinians came to grips long ago and on November 29 2012 the UNGA

made that grip official now it's your turn to come to grips with the fact Judea and Samaria (said in those terms so the poster I'm addressing will understand the geographical area I'm speaking of ) are not Israel's sovereign territory

[shira]

21. The PLO & Hamas are still @ war vs. Jewish Apes and Pigs...

They want it all.

Full RoR, Palestine b/w the river and sea, and fuck the Jooz.

Again, they should come to grips with 2 states and peace like they should have since 1937.

[azurnoir]

24. aha yep they want it all and so does Israel but guess what no one is getting it "all:"

in fact prior to 1948 all (Israel) meant what is now Jordan too, guess that didn't work out so well huh?

you can keep raving here or chose to admit the West Bank (Judea and Samaria just so you understand) along with Gaza is Palestine, that's what recognized no more no less

[shira]

26. Israel has offered while the Palestinians have rejected 2 states each time.

They reject the offer due to friends like yourself who support "resistance", full RoR, etc.

[bravenak]

13. Did I ever say I supported anybody?

I just don't believe in the supreme authority of Shira, to make decisions about the Palestinian government.
You left Israel out. You forgot the racist thugs who have been leading Israel into oblivion.
And who am I cheering on? Don't make stuff up, I'm just saying that the article seems to be super lacking in certain information. Never once did they even hint at the fact that the occupation hinders economic growth. It was just fluff stuff. Those people aren't good enough, they should be more like us.
It has been going on my entire life so forgive me if I'm jaded. I make it a point to notice racism because its so damn stupid.
Thanks for telling me who I can support all the way in Palestine, gee thanks.
Btw, I knew you would not be able to resist throwing Syria in there.

[shira]

23. The PLO & Hamas are not victims. Understand?

Not when they constantly crow for the annihilation of all the Jewish Apes and Pigs, or when they oppress, torture, kill, and abuse women, children, gays, christians, and atheists.

When you confuse the oppressed with the oppressors (and it still appears you see all Palestinians as the same victim group, both the elites as well as those they abuse) you do nothing to bring about real peace and change.

Free Gaza, from Hamas.

Same WRT the W.Bank and the PLO.

[bravenak]

30. I never said they were victims. Show me where I said Hamas are victims or the PLO.

I asked you if you were an oppressed minority and had ever experienced racism. Are you and have you?

You can't answer can you.
The Palestinian people are the victims of the occupation. The occupiers cannot be the victim.
Please explain to me how the occupation has helped to bring peace and stability to the region?

[shira]

31. They're oppressors, aren't they? Do we agree on that?

The OP is about human rights for Palestinians starting at home (with their leaders). I happen to agree wholeheartedly with that.

I'm Jewish. Members of my family were wiped out just a few generations ago. I've personally experienced anti-Jewish hate.

Jewish victims of terror in Israel are and have been victims for decades.

Without occupation in 1967, Israel's neighbors would have certainly been tempted to start more wars against Israel's indefensible borders. UNSCR 242 calls for it to end once there is peace and not a moment before.

[bravenak]

32. I will concede to you that I do not agree with their methods. Violence is oppressive, so yes.

I also agree that what happened, the near extinction of a people is almost too much to bear. It must not be allowed to happen ever again. We will not fail to respond in time. The world failed you and your people. But you must throw off the yoke of old hatreds and empathize with others.

Peace can be scary, nothing is assured. But this occupation is sowing seeds of hatred, and I am fearful for the whole region.

In my perfect world you could all settle here peacefully without neighbors that hate you. But Israel is a proud nation and that would never do.
But do realize that the Palestinians are just as proud. And they are out breeding Israelis.
Peace should not be delayed unless they want to lose their Jewish culture in Israel.

[Shaktimaan]

22. Racist comments?

I am sometimes shocked by how people talk about one another here on this forum. The Palestinians, whether or not their case is legitimate, are still human beings and deserve to be treated that way. If we call them inhumane and other things, we are no better than Morsi who have called the Jews (Zionists) monkeys.
9 hours ago
2 people

Amanda Haymond
From Robert Haymond, Israel: This was a simple, brief and well-integrated reflection on the current state of affairs in our region and in the Mideast as a whole. I reside east of the Green Line in Tekoa. Familiarity with the Arab population surrounding us shows that the Arab people themselves are becoming increasingly fed up with their corrupt leadership. Increasing educational opportunities and the internet are making it clear to them that their inability to achieve as a group of separate communities (clans) is a result of the lack of a democratic system and a leadership largely unconcerned for their well-being. You've hit the nail on the head in your analysis and I thank you for the important work which you are engaged in.
2 hours ago
1 person

Loren Griffith
I am going to let you in on a little secret - nobody cares about the 'Palestinians'. It is simply another tool used to attack Jews and nothing more.
Yesterday at 1:46pm
1 person

Tomas Sandell
I agree Sarah. The whole Palestinian Human Rights Campaign is about showing respect for people who are suffering, regardless of ethnicity etc.
8 hours ago

Kjell A. Amundsen
But, first they have to be human.
Yesterday at 11:39pm

Larry Snider
It is not wrong to call for the freedom of speech that accompanies functioning democratic institutions. But the process and the practice of democracy in the Arab segment of the Middle East as is becoming apparent across a wide spectrum of evo/revolutionary changes that are occurring in nations struggling to implement Arab Spring/Arab Summer/Arab Fall/Arab Winter as freedom is increasingly overwhelmed by civil strife and internal warfare. Palestine cannot afford to wait for democracy anymore than it can afford to wait for the perfect Israel partner. The conditions for the freedom and prosperity of the Palestinian people must be sought in the values inherent in seeking and realizing an independent and secure state of their own.

[bravenak]

28. There were only 2 when I wrote that. Loren Griffith and kjell Amundsen .

What does that mean when he says first they have to be human? That sounds racist to me.
Or the other comment? Nobody cares about the Palestinians? They are just a tool to attack Jews? Those were the only comments in there at the crack of dawn when I posted my reply.

Check for yourself.

[pelsar]

33. actually i would call u the racist....

there is no reason why the Palestinians under an occupation cannot create democratic institutions, instead of creating oppressive laws against their own people. The jews under the occupations of turkey and the british created their own democratic institutions within their own community...and the PA/hamas have far more "freedom' than the jews ever did.

apparently, history has recently shown that the theory of first, nationalism, leading to facist, theocratic dictatorship leads to liberal western democracy apparently doesn't work to well....look around at the world..(and the process itself is pretty violent)

apparently you seem to believe that the Palestinians are not able to do so, or that its not that important for Palestinians to live and create within their own society a democratic culture.....you obviously far more nationalistic (right wing), since you believe that nationalism is far more important than basic freedom of speech, and other basic human rights that the PA/Hamas dictatorships have removed from their own societies...since gaining power.

some Palestenians disagree:


But this is far more than an internal Palestinian issue. The only lasting peace between Israelis and Palestinians will be based on a settlement negotiated between two democracies -- this was the case in Europe, and it will be the case in the Middle East.

By Mustafa Barghouthi

22 July, 2010
http://www.countercurrents.org/barghouthi220710.htm
____

the core of the article is correct, western democracies generally are more stable and dont go to war with one another...

of course it also comes down to believing that western democracies are in fact the better system of govt and no people should live under any kind of dictatorship, no matter what the genetic make-up of the rulers....i take it from your comments that some occupations are better than others..dependning upon the genes of the occupier.

[bravenak]

34. Call me what you will.

Everything you just attributed to me was your own invention.
Nice word salad.
I supposed I was talking about Israel and Palestine. How the occupation Is racist and not promoting peace.
People my age have lived their entire lives under Israeli occupation.
You seem to be saying that their government is bad for them.
Israeli government is also bad for them.
Should they not get to chose their own governance for better or worse without the threat of occupation.
I'm not racist, I live with racism everyday of my life. I experience it first hand. You know nothing about me. Nothing.
You can eat that word salad.

[delrem]

35. He's saying "the Jews" (his words) are superior to Palestinians.

So Palestinians ought to be occupied by "the Jews" (his words).
The guy is effin unreal.

[bravenak]

36. That's what I thought he was saying.

For a second I was confused. It's ok to be racist if it is towards Palestine. Or I'm racist cause I don't believe in Israel's right to occupy others and degrade them.

[delrem]

46. Yes, and as you see, there's no shame.

And nope, it isn't innocent or out of ignorance. Unfortunately.
It doesn't get any better, either - they can keep up the same ugly racist shit for years.

[shira]

60. You mean no shame when you have to misrepresent your opponents' views...

That's pretty much sums up everything you've done here.

Why not just debate w/o all the dishonest, straw-man strategies you employ?

[delrem]

65. You seem upset that pelsar made it all about "The Jews", shira. I don't blame you. nt

[shira]

66. You don't seem willing or capable of discussing what Pelsar actually wrote about. n/t

[delrem]

67. I don't want to discuss "The Jews", shira. nt

[shira]

68. Where did Pelsar talk about Jews being superior to Palestinians....

...in building a western democracy under an occupation?

[delrem]

69. perhaps you and pelsar should take your talk about "the Jews" to PMing?

[King_David]

89. Not sure where your going with this,

What do you imagine Pelsar said or meant?

[delrem]

91. Since pelsar dropped to shira, and shira is dropping to you, fo with the tag-teaming. David.

[King_David]

92. Was just wondering,

Last edited Mon Apr 22, 2013, 07:54 AM - Edit history (1)

That's all..

[delrem]

98. OK Dave. Keep on wondering then. sheeee

[pelsar]

39. no i'm saying you have lower expectation for the Palestinians...

and that is my definition of racism....

clearly you believe its better to live a nationalistic state that rejects human rights, as more important than fighting first and foremost for civil rights.....

its your preferences

i just happen to agree with Mustafa Barghouthi, obviously you dont and probably think hes a racist too

[delrem]

41. You are saying exactly what I said you are saying. It has nothing to do with "expectations".

You strut around with statements about the superiority of "the Jews", denigrating Palestinians as deserving the occupation of "the Jews".
Your strut mentioned nothing about my, or anyone's, "expectations".

[pelsar]

42. the opposite...

its not the jews who are 'superior"...the democracy of israel was established during an occupation, there is no reason why the Palestinians cannot do the same....in fact i expect them too...

its you and their friends who don't....

the reason i believe that they haven't, is that their supporters, those that send money, those that go to support them, simply are at heart nationalists....and support that part of their society, that clearly has the upper hand presently.

you prefer that the Palestinians live under their own dictatorship (as per the PA and hamas) , as opposed to working for a western liberal democracy now, that would in fact put off the nationalism as a second step

and that I believe is because you (not me) believe that they are not capable to creating a democratic liberal society, or perhaps that they dont need one (I"m not sure what your opinion here, humanists and progressives are usually very vague about supporting, not supporting theocratic dictatorships - depending upon the genes )

[delrem]

43. that is disgusting. nt

[pelsar]

45. i agree...

people who put civil rights on the "back burner' and believe its only comes AFTER one has their own country, even if its a dictatorship, who rejects those western civil rights, womens rights etc...

well that is your point of view isn't it?

[shira]

51. Yes delrem, your view is disgusting and racist. So since you cannot defend it....

....will you continue to falsely accuse your opponents of holding racist views they don't support?

[pelsar]

44. and i was clarifying....

whether or not your a racist is not relevant to me...however your view is wrong.
the occupation is based on nationality and has nothing to do with religion, skin color, height or eye colors

as to your question:
Should they not get to chose their own governance for better or worse without the threat of occupation.

so if racism is so important to you, why would you support creating another racist govt? (theorcratic govts are racists at their foundation)....unless of course you agree with the right wing nationalists

[bravenak]

47. You must be sleepy.

We don't have the right to make decisions for others. You think their government is racist? What other group of people are the Palestinians oppressing?
And bigotry is bigotry!
Just stop it!
Like you care soooo much about the daily lives of the oppressed.
As an atheist I think all theocratic governments are stupid. But I can't change the world.

So what is the answer? Should they get to chose their own govt? Or is that up to Israel and America to decide what is best for them?

[pelsar]

48. chose a racist govt?

i dont "think" the PA or hamas is racist....they both claim that shari law is their foundation for justice: that pretty much defines a theorcratic govt. They've also cleary rejected western civil rights (womens rights etc).

What other group of people are the Palestinians oppressing?
so its ok for the Palestinians to "oppress" their own members?, you know that ones that disagree with their govt....do you have the same standard for the US?

So what is the answer? Should they get to chose their own govt? Or is that up to Israel and America to decide what is best for them?
I'm a liberal who believes in civil rights above all, and i dont believe any country has a right to exist that does not have a western foundation, as i believe that is the best way to protect the "oppressed"

clearly you dont believe that....as i understand from your posts, you believe that once a group choses/votes in a govt, and its irrelevent if they are like the taliban or china, or canada, its none of anybodies business if they dress their women in potato sacks, stone them for being raped..after all, its the govt they have chosen...and the women? well tough shit....

and if hamas is doing that...well its better a permanent hamas doing it to their own (theorcratic govt dont have real elections), then a temporary secular occupation by israel

[bravenak]

79. Once again you are rambling.

I never said any of that stuff . I was asking you questions.
Funny how you mention china like they are our enemies like the Taliban.
We seem to overlook human rights abuses in countries that we need something from. Like money.
We in the us are hypocrites.
Nobody from other countries stopped the systematic oppression, lynchings,and other civil rights abuses that were endured for centuries in America by Africans. We had to fight for years, our blood sweat and tears we shed for many years. We had to march on Washington as recently as65 just to be able to vote in our own country, a country that forcibly dragged millions here in chains killing nearly 5 million before ever reaching the shore.
A country where there are still severe inequalities based on race. We are still working on that.
They need to be given the opportunity to chose, and make changes to their government as they need, not as we need.
They need control of their borders and commerce. Or they will remain poor, just like all other oppressed people. The struggle continues. We are all brothers and sisters and we should want the same for others as we are lucky enough to have for ourselves. They are being held hostage as far as I am concerned, so I blame the people not. I blame their government and the Israeli govt especially, as they are the ones making the children suffer.

History will tell.

[pelsar]

101. so if they "choose".....

to have a taliban type govt..you will support their choices and defend their choices and all that it implies for those who live with their govt

i simply want to clarify.....

[bravenak]

104. I'll let you know when they get there.

Doesn't seem like they will be having the freedom to choose anytime soon.

[pelsar]

106. its a question of principle

but there are more than enough examples:

khommeni in iran, keeps their women in potatoe sacks, and they had a popular election (of course they did hang all the liberals soon after)

the taliban own and control areas of Afganistan, are you going to defend them?

hamas was in fact elected (and subsequently removed the opposition as per their beliefs), and they've put their women in potatoe sacks...nothing to do with israel. (note the westbank has decided not to).
______________________

all have "chosen" as far as i understand your definition.....so, why not defend their choices?

[bravenak]

128. I don't defend everyone's choices.

I defend right to choose. Just like I would never have an abortion, but I defend a woman's right to choose. Free will and all that, right?

Didn't the us have something to do with that situation in Iran? I was born in 81 , but I remember that we were meddling again.

[pelsar]

159. thats a really vague simplistic response.. how about getting real now

but it means you dont get to use a simplistic answer either:

since you here on this forum, we'll use hamas:
they were voted in with a very specific program, thats the nice thing about the religious, they dont mince words:
their platform, theocratic, also means non democratic, i.e. no more voting after they get it in, no more women's rights, no more western civil rights.

but they were voted in by the majority to in fact take away civil rights that the secular PA defined:
______________________
the Palestinians of gaza have chosen.....will you defend that choice?
_______________________

also, that was years ago, what about now?, lets assume that many would like a new govt with more liberal rules, except that, theorcratic govts, dont have real elections, since their govt is based on god, and no way are they going to give it up, that is against gods wishes (they are carrying out a mission from god). So there is not going to be the option of more liberal rules*
___

will you defend the voting in of a theorcratic govt, knowing full well what their obvious plans are- to take away choices from the people?...(it is the "choice" of the people)

*It could be that you believe the people should revolt/protest until they get a chance to vote again...that failed in iran, as they were beaten and shot down in the street, and hamas also has a rather strong response to any protest-again no surprise here

[azurnoir]

80. a question here pelsar have you personally experienced racism?

if so where and exactly from who?

Because the poster your addressing has, as have I

[pelsar]

102. very little....

as a jewish boy in detroits suburbs the closest i ever came was when the inner city blacks were bussed in to our lilly white jr high......

we had a "cultural change" one might say (i think thats PC enough)
_________________________

[azurnoir]

103. so were you a witness a victim or

I hate this but a participant? or all 3?

[pelsar]

105. well you get a short story...

because its one of my favorites and has a nice lesson in it:
in elementary school i was a popular kid and at the same time i befriended a few outcasts...these two outcasts were later to become the "greasers (you remember "greasers) of jr and high school.

When our "new inner city friends" were bussed in and started to stake out their new territory with their new rules, they chose violence as their method and specifically targeted the jewish kids.

just once i was targeted...except that my two old friends from elementary school, now properly outfitted with leather jacket and appropriate chains and knives, very quickly and efficiently using a common language explained that i'm 'off limits".

and hence i became just a witness for the next 2 yrs...(after that my family moved)

[Israeli]

49. pelsar pleeeeese !!

the occupation is based on nationality and has nothing to do with religion, skin color, height or eye colors

The occupation is based on land and water rights and some say security ...it also has everything to do with religion .

Have you never read 'Lords of the Land' by Akiva Eldar ?

Ref : http://books.google.co.il/books/about/Lords_of_the_Land.html?hl=iw&id=U4X49G7z2mMC&q=Oslo+agreement

and haver... we are not the great western democracy that you would portray as us ,
otherwise we would not having this kind of report from the US no less :

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4369999,00.html

This is the middle east pelsar .... its not America !!

That whole article is just another excuse for not ending the occupation and for refusing the Palestinians their right to self-determination .

[shira]

50. You don't get it. Replacing Israel with Hamas or the PLO is just another form....

....of occupation. You prefer a Hamas theocratic, dictatorial occupation over Israeli secular occupation because Hamas has the proper DNA. What you should be supporting is civil rights first and foremost in the territories rather than rightwing nationalism first, and then civil rights much later on....if ever.

That's Pelsar's point.

You brought up discrimination in Israel, but discrimination still rages on in the USA and UK as well. All are imperfect western democracies but all are also far superior to the rightwing nationalist racists and warmongers you prefer running a future Palestine.

[Israeli]

52. you talking to me shira ?? !!

....because most of my posts in answer to yours you have conveniently ignored .

I get it moteck , its you that does not .

Tell me something shira ... if you care that much about us ... why are you living in America ??

You dont have a clue about life over here ... or about the Palestinians except what you garner from your Right wing web sites .
I suggest you live here for 63 years as I have ... then you lecture me American .

[shira]

53. Yes, I am. And I answer all your questions. You conveniently ignore mine.

1. If you want, we can start answering each other's questions right now. You game?

2. Yes, I'm American and I have opinions about Israel. In case you didn't notice, this is an American board and there are many non-Israelis here who cannot stand Israel but they have their own opinions too. They believe they know better than the vast majority of Israelis who live there. You don't have a problem with that, do you?

[Israeli]

55. you do ?

... so , why no response to this :

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=39813

Pelsar is a big boy shira he can handle himself ... if I was him I would be embarrassed having you on my side .

[shira]

58. Was there a question you asked me in that post? Let me know...

The bottom line is there's a very thin line separating post-zionists from anti-zionists. So thin, in fact, that I challenge you or your guru Avnery to actually specifically list the major differences between the 2 viewpoints. When you're able to do so, you should be able to clearly distinguish what your future Israel/Palestine looks like in opposition to the anti-Zionists' utopian vision. This should be fascinating...

I also asked you earlier about the Gush Shalom peace plan.....if 4-5 million refugees decide they want to live within Israel, how do you propose that happens?

That's incidentally what the anti-Zionists want too. How is your plan on refugees different than theirs?

[Israeli]

61. you can call us anti-zionists

... all you like shira
makes no iota of difference to me

these are our aims :
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/about/aims/

you dont like them thats perfectly understandable

you will understand then ,that those of us that built this country and were born here and that continue to live here and defend it ....dont understand you.

[oberliner]

63. The Western Wall is in West Jerusalem?

From your link:

"Establishing Jerusalem as the capital of the two states, with East Jerusalem (including the Haram al-Sharif) serving as the capital of Palestine and West Jerusalem (including the Western Wall) serving as the capital of Israel."

In what sense is the Western Wall in West Jerusalem?

[Israeli]

107. its a compromise oberliner

you dont get the Temple Mount but you get the wall
if you would like us to give up on that pile of old bricks then fine by me .

[oberliner]

109. Makes sense

But the wording of that paragraph gives the impression that the Western Wall is itself in West Jerusalem, and I do not think this is the case.

[Israeli]

110. its not in West Jerusalem

maybe its the english but it makes complete sense to me :

and West Jerusalem (including the Western Wall) serving as the capital of Israel

including the Western Wall

have to give the religious something , nu ?

[oberliner]

111. That is my point

Here is the whole citation again:

"Establishing Jerusalem as the capital of the two states, with East Jerusalem (including the Haram al-Sharif) serving as the capital of Palestine and West Jerusalem (including the Western Wall) serving as the capital of Israel."

East Jerusalem includes the Haram al-Sharif, doesn't it?

Thus it seems that the paragraph is saying West Jerusalem includes the Western Wall.

Look at the structure of the two phrases.

[shira]

64. Again you didn't answer my question about refugees. Why?

Last edited Sun Apr 21, 2013, 11:44 AM - Edit history (1)

I wrote before that the goals of Gush-Shalom look like Olmert's offer, except for the refugee proposal which is a feature of BDS and anti-zionism. I don't have a problem with Olmert's offer, so long as it results in long term peace I enthusiastically support it.

Tell me what happens if all refugees want into Israel.

you will understand then ,that those of us that built this country and were born here and that continue to live here and defend it ....dont understand you.

You don't speak for the majority of Israelis. You never will. And as much as you attack the Jewish religion, you should realize the fanatacism of your own secular religion - similar to that of the most Israel obsessed antizionists. It's no less fanatical than that of the most hardcore religious settlers.

You write about excuses used that keep the occupation going. What does that mean? You want the occupation to end without a peace deal?

[Israeli]

100. I never said ...

You don't speak for the majority of Israelis. You never will. And as much as you attack the Jewish religion, you should realize the fanatacism of your own secular religion - similar to that of the most Israel obsessed antizionists. It's no less fanatical than that of the most hardcore religious settlers.

.... that I speak for the majority of Israelis shira and nowhere have I attacked anybodies religion .
Sure we are the minority now , wasnt always like that , until most of the most hardcore religious settlers arrived here from your country .
Least there is one progressive American willing to acknowledge that and apologies for you all :

So Israel, many of us here in America are ashamed of our contribution to the dysfunction you currently suffer. We wish there were more Magneses, Aschermans and Montells and less Kahanes, Gimpels and Teitels. I write this post as my own small way of doing penance for their sins.

Source : American Jews Gave Israel Gift of Jewish Terror
by Richard Silverstein
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2013/01/21/american-jews-gave-israel-gift-of-jewish-terror/

[shira]

112. Can u please answer my question about refugees?

If all 5 million refugees choose return to Israel as per the Gush-Shalom plan, then what?

[Israeli]

114. obviously you cant read english shira

Aims of Gush Shalom @ http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/about/aims/

Recognizing in principle the Right of Return of the Palestinian refugees, allowing each refugee to choose freely between compensation and repatriation to Palestine and Israel, and fixing by mutual agreement the number of refugees who will be able to return to Israel in annual quotas, without undermining the foundations of Israel.

Explanation of The Right of Return : by Uri Avnery
@ http://www.mediamonitors.net/uri3.html

happy now ?

[shira]

115. Avnery says 50K per year for 10 years is reasonable....

That's 10% of the current 5,000,000 refugees (fixed annual quota that doesn't undermine Israel).

Great! But...

1. Why do you think the Palestinians would settle for only 10% of the refugees being accepted into Israel? That's an insult, isn't it?

2. And once again, if all 5 million refugees individually choose return - and remember, this is what Avnery calls for, personal choice - then what? They do not all have the right to choose return or compensation, do they? Avnery's plan is bullshit. Why not just call for the return of 500K over 10 years (50K per year) and cut the bullshit out about each individual Palestinian given a choice? Obviously, they each can't get a choice when only 10% maximum can return. The proposal is contradictory.

[bravenak]

160. That sounds reasonable.

What's wrong with that? Mutual agreement sounds perfect. Peaceful and normal. I like it.

[shira]

163. Each refugee doesn't get a choice when only 10% max are allowed RoR.

So if they're given a choice and they all decide they want RoR, 90% of them will be rejected.

[bravenak]

164. Life ain't been fair so far.

It's a start. Personally I wouldn't want to return, but some will. I think it will be less than you think wanting to return. I've never seen all of anyone decide the same thing. No reason to freak out, they're just people. Not dragons or something. It can be done without fire and blood.

[shira]

165. Gush-Shalom's proposal is unworkable. They should put something out about 50K returning....

...per year up to 10 years (500k total). That's the deal that should be negotiated b/w I/P. Propose a lottery system if > 500k choose RoR rather than promise all individuals a choice they really don't have.

You also don't know what the refugees are dealing with in their host countries where they have zero rights. Many are not there by choice. They're political pawns. Arab regimes have used them for 1 reason over the past 65 years, and that's to destroy Israel demographically. Given a choice, you can bet that the regimes will pressure these refugees (in a very bad way) to return rather than accept compensation.

[bravenak]

166. They're being used by both sides.

I don't think it should be up to Americans, how many return. I just think both sides need to find a solution. Not an American one.
Israel being destroyed demographically, is already happening. Like I said before, not breeding fast enough.
It would be nice if those refugees had a home to go to though, near where they used to live maybe.
Then they can't be used by host countries.
Have you no sympathy for those wandering refugees?

[shira]

167. The world has failed them, deliberately so...

A Palestinian refugee is like no other worldwide. Only Palestinian descendants of refugees, 3-5 generations down, remain refugees without rights, waiting in limbo. No other people is treated in such a way, but that's the UN for you.

You know what we call people born and raised in other countries? Citizens of those countries.

But not Palestinians.

They should be immediately granted citizenship, rather than be denied the rights of any other people. The UN doesn't see it that way and neither do their fake "supporters" who cry "apartheid" against the Joooz. Makes you think twice who the real racists, bigots, and practitioners of genuine apartheid are, doesn't it?

[bravenak]

168. You cannot displace people, remove them and forget about them.

They aren't going anywhere. Yes, I agree , they should be given citizenship, but in Israel. They didn't leave to immigrate for a better life. The fled for their lives.

Why so much hate for the UN?
Didn't they help create Israel?
Just because people don't like your solution doesn't mean they are fake.
And no it doesn't make me think twice? At all.
The UN ain't oppressing the Palestinians.

[shira]

169. Do you realize there were 10's of millions of refugees back in the 1940's?

There is only one group since then whose situation is unresolved.

Guess who?

Only one group whose children and ancestors generations later remain refugees....

"And the World is Lying" - The Plight of the Refugees
http://www.mideasttruth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8878

I recommend you read that. You'll learn a lot.

Take care.

[delrem]

170. That has to be the most ridiculous statement on the planet. Congratulations.

[shira]

171. You should read the article. Let me know what you think once you do. n/t

[Israeli]

56. how did you manage

to change your post from pelsar to what there is now without an edit ???

shira .. I'm not playing your games

I know exactly what you stand for ... its not for my country its for your religion .

[shira]

59. Huh? I have no idea what you're talking about. n/t

[pelsar]

62. water is no longer the issue.....the desalination plants in israel.

"In the coming years we will be able to return water to nature and even sell water to our neighbors," said Energy and Water Minister Uzi Landau.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4166084,00.html
__________________

after gaza we discovered it wasn't just the settlements (remember that was the mantra, settlements for peace)

so what does that leave us with? that we simply dont like them? its that simple?, We're mean and dont want them to have a state?

no, any serious discussion about the Palestinians state has to take in to account hamas, the muslim brotherhood, home made rockets as well as stability and civil rights.....as well as the settlers and their land grabs. Ignoring Gaza and the unsurprising consequences is not a responsible position.
_____

self determination, which is just a nice word for nationalism (like zionism), does not ensure peace, democracies are generally more stable and less likly to go to war....and there is the solution...not supporting the creation of yet another society whos base is theocratic.

[Israeli]

108. In no way what you now say

.... changes what you said before :

the occupation is based on nationality and has nothing to do with religion, skin color, height or eye colors

The occupation is based on land and water rights and some say security ...it also has everything to do with religion pelsar.

after gaza we discovered it wasn't just the settlements (remember that was the mantra, settlements for peace)

Really , that was the mantra ?
I remember a different mantra .... that of blue against orange .
How Sharon managed to out wit them all , and how good it felt to at last feel some retribution for Rabin's assassination .

[muxin]

119. Israel under British occupation is a lot different than Palestine under Israel occupation

The jews under the occupations of turkey and the british created their own democratic institutions within their own community...and the PA/hamas have far more "freedom' than the jews ever did.

Another crap

The British DID NOT barricade the Israel, British DID NOT attacking the Israel territory with air strike or shooting at the Israelis, British DID NOT taking the Israeli land they are giving it to them!!! you want to compare that with Palestine under Israel occupation? get real dude

Under normal condition I would say there's no excuse for the Palestinians not to have a democratic govt, but it's hard to do so when you're constantly fearing for your life on a daily basis while your "good" neighbor barricade you with machine guns on their hands and continuously stealing your land. I'm not saying that Hamas are a bunch of angels I know there's lots of schmucks in that organization probably as much as in the Israeli parliament, but I would say STAYING ALIVE is their first priority right now and not democracy, which is understandable.

[muxin]

2. What a load of crap

However a recent study by the Jerusalem Institute of Justice, called ”Hidden Injustices,” shows that it is the Palestinian governing bodies, not the Israeli Government, who are the greatest abusers of the human rights of the Palestinian people

LMAO

Yeah of course, a study by a pro-israel organization, it must be a very fair judgment

Let me ask you, how many Palestinians killed by Palestinian Gov and how many have been killed by the Israel military?

Do you really expect people will believe this sh**?

[bravenak]

3. Different day, same crap!

I don't think there is an expectation of being believed.
Just keep repeating the same stuff over and over and over.
Next, we will be hearing that Syria is the real problem, or Jordan or.....
Btw, you will probably not be getting an answer to that death count total question. Ever.

[shira]

5. Do you have any idea what it is to live under thugs like Hamas in Gaza?

For women? Gays? Atheists? Etc...

Or is it that you just don't give a shit?

[azurnoir]

7. do you any idea of what it's like to never know when your house will be raided

when your kids will be snatched from their beds and imprisoned, but we once again so how much you're concecerned for Palestinians when Palestinians can be blamed but when Israel arrests an 8 year old Palestinian you tell us well he really wasn't on his way to school so that makes it okay or something

as we saw so eloquently on this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=36886

but kudos for waiting till it sunk to the bottom of the second page but alas not quite down the memory hole

[shira]

8. That wouldn't be happening if folks like yourself weren't cheering on...

....the recruitment of child militants who throw ginormous rocks at civilians. Wouldn't be happening if the folks you care SOOOO much about accepted their own state in peace alongside Israel....something they've been offered many times since 1937.

When you cheer on the resistance, it's quite hypocritical of you to whine about Israel's response to it, don'tcha think?

[azurnoir]

10. back up your fake accusation show proof for once !!!!!

you run up and down this board accusing people of this and that constantly with out ever providing a shred of proof

[shira]

27. Nothing fake about yr support of rock-throwing minors

Amira Hass speaks troof 2 power 4u.

Now r u going 2 deny that like u denied being 4 full RoR?

[azurnoir]

37. Post it baby post it :)

for once prove it please

me thinks your playin' for time

[shira]

54. I posted your support of full RoR as you requested. This is all a game to you...

So what's the point?

Answer me now please: Do you believe it is the right and duty of Palestinian children to throw rocks at Israelis, when they are encouraged to do so by the PLO, Hamas, and other militant, terror groups?

[azurnoir]

71. there was nothing posted except your own claims

I would guess that means that if you say it it must be so

[bravenak]

12. Are you living in gaza?

Are you an oppressed minority? Would you like to walk a day in my shoes? As afar as giving a shit, do you? I'm young black and female, it ain't easy in this country! I lived through the LA riots and the subsequent week of lockdown in only black neighborhoods. Seeing businesses you've known forever burned to a crisp.
Lived in Kern County too.
Got called Nigger every damn day and night.
Got attacked by large groups of white kids, who would take a rope and say hang the little nigger.
Not really bad compared to the life of the average gazan.
And that was in America.
I don't like when someone who has not been oppressed in life sneers at the opressed like animals.
As far as me giving a shit?
You know nothing.
One of my best friends escaped Gaza as a child.
Have you ever known a Palestinian personally?

[GeoWilliam750]

14. I am very sorry for what has happened to you in our country

For most people, it is so much easier to hate than to think, and it is especially easy to hate the powerless.

Good luck in all that you do.

[bravenak]

16. I believe it happened to make me tough. And I am.

I also moved back to that same town 8 years later and it was completely different. I became friends with those same kids who harassed me. They had actually never met a black person before. Scared them into behaving like little klan members. Next thing you know they're all into hip hop, saggin their pants, and gettin cornrows. So I guess I got a form of revenge. I never told them how silly they looked.

[GeoWilliam750]

17. Isn't it wonderful?

When one gets to know people, it is really hard to hate them, and the more people one knows, the less hate one has.

Mostly, anyway.

[bravenak]

18. Yes, exactly! It was nice to be the recipient of the good change.

I actually grew to love them even after all the harassment. They did steal my boyfriend though. But I still really love that town. Mostly, anyway.

[azurnoir]

15. +1

and things in Minneapolis aren't as different as some like to think

[oberliner]

20. "One of my best friends escaped Gaza as a child."

Can you elaborate on that?

[bravenak]

25. She had family in the US, I don't know why but they were granted asylum here.

They had lost everything and were living in a refugee camp. Luckily her father was able to get to the USA , work and send for his family. She was here by the time she was 6.
I had no idea where she was from and I made a stupid statement about Palestinians.
She roasted me.
I apologized.
We became friends.

[holdencaufield]

117. "Are you living in gaza?"

Are you?

[bravenak]

126. I already said where I live.

Check out my profile. Says exactly where I live.

[holdencaufield]

131. So what makes you ...

... living thousands of miles away a huge expert on Gaza more so than someone who lives 3 miles away in Israel? Because you read Maan News and +972 Mag? Or, because, as you say, you have a "Palestinian Friend"?

[bravenak]

132. I already stated my position as an expert on racism. Having actually experienced it.

I said that I would point out on this American site that there was a lotta racist statements being made. Where do you live nosey parker?
An American can't have an opinion?
But we can pay for Iron dome batteries, though right?
Are you calling me a liar holdencaufield?
I met my Palestinian homegirl while I was working at Frisky Kitty strip club. The owner was nice too he was from Lebanon. This was when I lived in Hollywood, so it was about 8 years ago, but they're still on my Facebook.
Think black people can't have a Palestinian friend?
I mean I never slipped inside of her skin, and experienced her life, but that would be impossible.
Let me tell you something about me holdencaufield, I have experience. I have lived. And I can see through you.
Never said I was an expert on gaza, you damn sure ain't either.
Are you trying to mock me?
Are you male and appear to be white?
I can usually tell.
Cause you're talking down to me.

[holdencaufield]

133. "I met my Palestinian homegirl while I was working at Frisky Kitty strip club"

That statement alone was worth the price of admission -- thanks!

[bravenak]

135. We would have taken all of your money.

Are you slut shaming now? Slut shamer, slut shamer! I was homeless. Have you ever been homeless? They make park benches out of metal now. After being raped on the street I decided to get inside and never be homeless or starving again. Like I said I have experience! The owners of the club protected ( pulled the guy off )me from the guy and offered me a job.
Stop laughing at people you don't know. A lot of sexually abused women work in that profession.
I hope laughing at me makes your day.
There is a feminist poster that I think you should read.
You are not a nice man, holdencaufield.
I cried every night I was homeless. I was thankful, thankful, for somewhere to go out of the cold.

[holdencaufield]

136. Slame a slut?!

Never!

I actually have a slut friend -- so I know everything about them and consider myself an expert on sluts and all things slut-related. Just knowing someone from a certain group automatically makes me an expert on them and their entire culture, right?

[bravenak]

137. What is slaming?

I don't think you get the concept. Slut is something said to shame women. Slaming women I have never heard of. I never said knowing a Palestinian makes me an expert. I said experiencing racism in the USA makes me an expert on racism. And having a friend from Palestine gives me a little window into her world view.
If you had a friend , you wouldn't call them a slut. And what is slut culture exactly? Are you purposely being obtuse?
Since you are an Expert on sluts, tell me something about their culture??
You should never slame anyone, whatever slaming is. Or maybe you should.

[holdencaufield]

139. "experiencing racism in the USA makes me an expert on racism"

Well, you got me there, being Jewish I've wouldn't know anything about prejudice or discrimination. People throughout History have always been pretty decent to the Jews.

[bravenak]

141. Oh yes. Funny I don't remember saying it has.

And Africans have had it so easy. Wanna get into a pissing match? I have personally had white men tie a rope around my neck and say kill the nigger. I was 9 years old. Other kids wouldn't touch me because they didn't want to get dirtied by the nigger. I made it a point to study racism in America.
There are also the blacks in Australia. Treated like crap. Cause they are black. They have something called the lost generations. Generations of children stolen from their families.
Have YOU ever experienced any of this? Not your mama, daddy, or other ancestor. YOU? Personally?
You sound very privileged to me. Snakily laughing at people who have it worse than you.
Btw I experienced ALOT of racism.
Did you forget that we were slaves. Five million died on the way to America, millions more after arrival.
I don't remember a lot of antisemitism in my lifetime. Not in America. Mostly anti blackism.

[holdencaufield]

142. On the other hand -- the USA has a Black President

I call that progress

We've never had a Jewish President.

"I don't remember a lot of antisemitism in my lifetime"

I didn't know you were Jewish. You should have given me the secret handshake

[bravenak]

143. A black president. It only took several centuries.

So we have progress, you say.
And the highest incarceration and unemployment rates.
We never had an atheist president, either.
Or a Muslim.
Or a Buddhist.
Or a Zoroastrian for that matter.
His ancestors on his black side were not slaves.
There were some on his white side of the family though.
Do I have to b Jewish to notice antisemitism?
I just don't remember Jews having to fight for the vote. Or any civil rights in this country.
Or being lynched. Or enslaved. Or Jim crowed. Or told they can't marry other races.
Aren't they starting that in Israel too, the marriage thing, I mean for Palestinians.
Am I wrong? Maybe, hopefully.
Secret handshake?
Oh I see you made a funny?
Racism ain't funny, Houldencaulfield.

[holdencaufield]

144. "Am I wrong?"

Yes, fabulously so

[bravenak]

145. About the marriage thing?

Good. I like when I am wrong about something so stupid.

[holdencaufield]

148. Yes ... you are wrong

Israel ... like most states in the region ... don't recognize civil marriages performed within Israel. They DO recognize civil unions performed outside of Israel, including mix-religion and same-sex marriages (something our own country does not).

Persons in Israel who desire civil unions -- for what ever reason -- typically travel to Cyprus (a 40 minute flight) to have them done and Israel will recognize them.

The reason for excluding civil marriages is that this was an existing law under Ottoman Rule -- dating back to the 16th Century -- and when Israel declared statehood in '48 all Ottoman and British laws currently on the books remained in force until specifically repealed or amended. This particular law, to date, has not been.

[bravenak]

149. Thank you!

I was confused but you have cleared that right up. So basically they are not sanctioning the marriages that they don't sanction, but will recognize existing marriages performed elsewhere. That is better than us. I guess I'm in a glass house today, on this issue. I apologize for my ignorance. I did say I may be wrong, though.
I like you better when you're not laughing at me holdencaufield. You explain things well when you are in the right. I like it!

[delrem]

150. You aren't wrong. Here's an article that explains one particular case.

http://electronicintifada.net/content/palestinian-families-denied-rights-israels-racist-marriage-laws/10866

You have been speaking with a person who supports policies which he dare not mention on a board such as this, so who carefully excludes the crux of the matter, the issues most recently decided by the Knesset and the Israeli high court, in favor of a blend of hogwash intended to convey a sense of liberal normality.

The EI article linked to above isn't written with that same imperative to bias, but EI has its own biases so I recommend that you read it, get a sense of the issue as seen by Palestinians with family friends and loved ones on both sides of the green line, and to read some more about the particular issue so as to get a well rounded view.

One thing for sure: you aren't wrong to sense that something smells to high heaven. It ain't roses, that's for sure.

[delrem]

147. No, you aren't wrong about "the marriage thing".

The Israeli version has a particular Israeli (100% demographically oriented) twist, but it falls under the same species of thing.

And you, Bravenak, are a terrific writer with a voice that is heard.

[bravenak]

151. Thank you very much. I had heard about the Israeli version, but not studied it.

I was just told I was wrong about that though so I'm looking it up now.
And to think, I just apologized to my dear friend about that.
I think he said that they recognized that marriages, just don't sanction them.
Maybe we're both wrong.
We need to ask the King what he thinks. I'm sure he knows as he is the arbiter of all things Israeli.
Your majesty, your grace, where are you?
We shall await our monarchs response.

[King_David]

138. You asked Shira 'are you living in Gaza'

Was fair question that he asked you.

If she is not an expert because she does not 'live in Gaza' ,well then nor are you .

[bravenak]

140. She asked me a question first about living under Hamas.

So I asked her if she was living in Gaza. Never said I was an expert on gaza,King. Said I was an expert on racism, having dealt with so fuggin much of it. Help me identify with others.
None of us not living in Palestine under occupation are experts on the racism and oppression of the occupation.
Not you.
Not Shira.
Not even Houldencaulfield.
I don't want to be an expert on gaza under occupation.
I'd prefer Gazans to be free.
You know, like you are.
I'd like them to be able to come and go as they please.
I'd like that for the whole world.
The article was racist. Israelis blaming the Palestinians for human rights violations, while forgetting to mention that the Israelis are the worst human rights abusers of Palestinians living under occupation.
Do you have any experiences where you were treated badly or harmed because of nationalism or racism. If you have, you should empathize. I do.
People should not be born in occupation and die in occupation.

[holdencaufield]

146. "I don't want to be an expert on gaza under occupation"

That would be difficult -- give that Gaza is only occupied by Gazans.

There are no Israelis in Gaza. There hasn't been a single Jew living in Gaza since 2005. Were you unaware of that fact, or just choose to dismiss it?

[bravenak]

152. Then they must have complete control of their airspace and lands. Didn't know they were so free!

Not a single Jew? Not one? Well that's racist then.

[holdencaufield]

153. Hamas has forbidden any Jews from living in Gaza --

-- just as Jews will most likely be forbidden from living in a future West Bank Palestinian State.

You say that is racist? I agree, it is.

Compare that to the roughly 20% of the Israeli population who are mostly Palestinian Arabs and FULL Israeli citizens.

Israelis control the airspace over Gaza because Hamas has declared and maintains a state of war with Israel and continuously fire missiles at Israeli civilians. Hamas consider the state of Israel to be occupied by the Jews. They don't accept that Israel is a sovereign state, they consider every inch of Israel to be "occupied". When Hamas speaks of occupation, they aren't taking about Ramallah and Bethlehem -- they're talking about Tel Aviv and Haifa.

And, it's not true that Israel controls all the lands of Gaza. What happens in Gaza is totally under the control of Hamas and Gaza enjoys a rather sizable border with Egypt that is totally under Egyptian control -- in no way is it controlled by Israel. Egypt has the option, an option it has not exercised, to open that border and allow free access between Gaza and Egypt. But, in fact, the border between Gaza and Egypt is more firmly secured and fewer goods and services cross that border than those between Israel and Gaza.

[bravenak]

155. Israel would not mind Egypt opening up the border?

Israel in no way compels or bribes or makes any negotiations with Egypt pertaining to that border?
They mind their business completely on that end. Amazing!

[holdencaufield]

156. Of course not ... why would they?

Currently Israel supplies dozens of trucks every week with food, fuel and medical supplies to Gaza through the Israeli border crossings. Tens of thousands of Gazan's cross those borders each year to receive free medical care in Israel. How much simpler it would be if they could receive those supplies and medical care in Egypt versus Israel. After all, Gaza isn't formally at war with Egypt they way they currently are with Israel.

[bravenak]

157. Israeli border crossings?

[holdencaufield]

158. Yes, there are two between Israel and Gaza

Erez is used for cargo (into Gaza from Israel) and pedestrians (Palestinians coming into Israel for work and free medical treatment) and the Karni crossing which is exclusively for cargo. There is also the Rafah crossing between Gaza and Egypt which could be used for both cargo and pedestrians but Egyptian authorities keep it closed.

There are plans underway to expand the Erez crossing to accept cargo trains as well when there is an eventual settlement between Gaza and Israel.

[bravenak]

162. I just don't believe Israel has no control.

And what about the rest of Palestine. When do the get freedom? When they vote in a militant govt?
If it worked in gaza maybe it will work again. They are not being left many options.

[holdencaufield]

172. You're not alone

A lot of people believe that Jews control everything -- banks, Wall Street, the media -- even if they are unclear precisely how they do it. To them, it is just inconceivable that Jews don't have mystical powers and influence over just about everything. If you believe along those same lines then there is little I can say to dissuade you from that thinking.

Israelis left Gaza unilaterally in 2005 and the second they did, Gaza turned into an armed missile base from which to spray Israeli civilians with missiles, rockets, and mortars. Most Israelis don't consider withdrawal from Gaza to have "worked" -- particularly those who live under constant rocket barrage. Quite the opposite, withdrawal from Gaza cost Israeli lives.

If Israel unilaterally disengaged from the West Bank without an agreement or safe borders then rockets and missiles wouldn't just be landing on Ashdod, Ashkelon and S'derot, those rockets would be landing on Jerusalem and Tel Aviv -- with significantly more loss of civilian life. This eventuality if unthinkable for most Israelis -- as it should be.

As for options, you're right, there are precious few -- Israel has no choice but to maintain occupation until they can come to a peaceful agreement with the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. I don't see that happening anytime soon, do you?

[muxin]

116. Do you have any idea what it is living under barricade while getting shot at like animals?

Tell me if the women, gays, and atheists in Gaza are not suffering from the barricade. Don't change the subject, this stupid post is your way of showing that Hamas is far worst than the Israeli government in terms of human rights violation correct?. As far as I concern the worst form of human right violation is murder. That's sooooo easy to measure, just look at the statistics who killed more Palestinians? Hamas or the Israeli government?

Please answer my question, I already asked you twice. (I know the answer btw, I just want to hear it from you)

Or is it you just don't give a shit about people get killed?

[shira]

121. You didn't answer my question.

Of course people suffer under occupation and blockade. And thousands of Palestinians have been killed in the conflict, most of whom were combatants trying to murder Jews.

Did you know most Palestinians prefer "living under barricade" to living under Hamas?

"The journalist adds: "There are two options today that could take us out of this situation: Someone strong in the Gaza Strip who does not care about a confrontation with the clans, or an Israeli occupation. Many people in the Strip hope that Israel will reoccupy it because these phenomena were not prevalent during the Israeli occupation."

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/as-gaza-burns...

=======

Bassem Al-Nabris
Palestinian poet from Khan Younis, Gaza Strip

"If a there was a referendum in the Gaza Strip 'would you like the Israeli occupation to return?' half the population would vote 'yes'... But in practice, I believe that the number of those in favor is at least 70%, if not more - much higher than is assumed by the political analysts and those who follow. For the million and a half people living in this small region, things have gone too far - in practice, not just as a metaphor. with the internal conflicts, but even earlier, in the days of the previous Palestinian administration, which was corrupt and did not give the people even the tiniest hope. The fundamentalist forces which came into power also promised change and reform, but got a siege, with no security and no making a living... If the occupation returns, at least there will be no civil war, and the occupier will have a moral and legal obligation to provide the occupied people with employment and food, which they now lack."

=======

Al-Hayat Al-Jadida columnist Yahya Rabah wrote: 'When the national unity government was formed, I thought: "This will be a government of national salvation." If a government that includes Fatah, Hamas, other factions and independents associated with various factions has not been able to save the day, it means that no one can, unless Israel decides that its army should intervene. Then it will invade the Gaza Strip, kill and arrest people - but this time not as an occupying force but as an international peace-keeping force. Look what we have come to, how far we have deteriorated, and what we have done to ourselves.' (Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, PA, 15 May 2007)

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Palestinian journalist Majed Azzam wrote: 'We should have the courage to acknowledge the truth... The only thing that prevents the chaos and turmoil in Gaza from spreading to the West Bank is the presence of the Israeli occupation in the West Bank... as opposed to its absence from the Gaza Strip.' (Al-Risala, Gaza, 14 May 2007)

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"People in Gaza are hoping that Israel will reenter the Gaza Strip, wipe out both Hamas and Fatah, and then withdraw again... They also say that, since the massacres, they miss the Israelis, since Israel is more merciful than who do not even know why they are fighting and killing one another. It's like organized crime, . Once, we resisted Israel together, but now we call for the return of the Israeli army to Gaza."

Faiz Abbas and Muhammad Awwad:
Al-Sinara (Nazareth), May 18, 2007

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"Between one murder and another, between one kidnapping and the next... our leaders continue to sit in their seats and to speak of 'resistance,' 'liberation,' 'unity,' and 'return'... They are all liars. The weapons they wish to retain, as the weapons of resistance, are actually weapons of internecine terrorism and murder... You are murdering the cause, people and future... Oh murderers, you have ruined our world, castrated our nationalism, prostituted our resistance... You have turned our lives into hell. hell is preferable... Take your government, your militias, and your gangs and go to hell."

Al-Ayyam (PA), May 17, 2007

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"The whole world seems to be talking about the future of the Arabs of Jerusalem, but no one has bothered asking us. The international community and the Israeli Left seem to take it for granted that we want to live under Mr. Arafat's control. We don't. Most of us despise Mr. Arafat and the cronies around him, and we want to stay in Israel. At least here I can speak my mind freely without being dumped in prison, as well as having a chance to earn an honest day's wage."

The Daily Telegraph (London), Jan. 28, 2001.

====

"The hell of Israel is better than the paradise of Arafat. We know Israeli rule stinks, but sometimes we feel like Palestinian rule would be worse."

‘Abd as-Samiya Abu Subayh, quoted in The Washington Post, July 25, 2000

[muxin]

122. I asked you first and No I don't believe they prefer to live under barricade

Since you don't want to answer my question because you don't want to make the Israel looks bad, here's some statistics

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/BE07C80CDA4579468525734800500272
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7375994.stm

Until 2008 almost 5000 Palestinians killed by the Israeli military and MOST OF THEM ARE NON COMBATANTS CIVILIANS

Here's a data from the UN

In 2007, for example, for every one Israeli death there were 25 Palestinian deaths compared to 2002 when the ratio was 1:2.5.

Palestinian civilian fatalities have remained high. Palestinian civilians, killed by Israeli security forces, peaked with an average of 35 deaths per month in 2002, and again in 2004. In 2007 they dropped slightly to an average of ten civilian deaths per month.

A total of 971 children have been killed in Israeli-Palestinian conflict violence, representing 18% of the total number of conflict deaths. Children are protected, in a number of legal instruments, including the Convention on the Rights of the Child, against arbitrary loss of life, even in armed conflict.

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/BE07C80CDA4579468525734800500272

Don't play dumb and don't change the subject just because you cannot defend what you have posted, the OP is a false, ridiculous report

it is the Palestinian governing bodies, not the Israeli Government, who are the greatest abusers of the human rights of the Palestinian people.

That was your post, and if you checkout any statistics of death counts by any LEGAL and RELIABLE sources ALL showing the Israeli government killed more Palestinians, civilians including children than the Palestinian govt, so since murder is the worst form of human rights violation, it is clear that Israeli government is the greatest abusers of the human rights. Therefore your thread is nothing but crap, got it?

[shira]

125. Of course Israel has killed more Palestinians than Hamas. Two sides are at war....

Take the war away, call off the dogs, and no more casualties.

Since 2000, Israel's civilian to combatant casualty rate vs. Palestinians has been better than 1:1 (more combatants killed than civilians). From Jenin to Cast Lead to the most recent operation this winter. That's just a fact, no matter what your propaganda says.

Now of course you don't care what actual Palestinians say about preferring occupation to Hamas or the PLO. But they do say it, it's a narrative buster vs. your false propaganda, and it takes a helluva lot of guts to do so in such a closed society known for killing, knee-capping, or jailing political opponents and critics.

[muxin]

130. Propaganda? I showed you proof, do you have proof?

More than 50% casualties are civilians, almost 1000 of them are children

You said that's just a fact so I just have to trust you? don't make me laugh, show me some proof or shut up.

So you really know what actual Palestinians say about preferring occupation? how do you know that? was there any kind of survey taken on this matter? you know.. something you're not familiar with..proof

[oberliner]

19. Over 600 Palestinians killed in internal clashes since 2006

An estimated 616 Palestinians have been killed in factional fighting since Hamas defeated Fatah in elections in January 2006, a leading Palestinian rights group said on Wednesday.

In its annual report, the Palestinian Independent Commission for Citizens' Rights said 345 Palestinians were killed in factional fighting in 2006. In the first five months of 2007, another 271 Palestinians were killed. (Reuters)

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3409548,00.html

[bravenak]

29. So, just for the record.

How many Palestinians killed by Israel during the same time period? I supposed they are just assisting the Palestinians in killing each other. I'm sure it's really appreciated.

[azurnoir]

38. Just for the record

here is B'tselem statistics they divide them into 3 groups 2000-December27 2008(Operation Cast Leads beginning)

During Cast Lead December 28 2008-January 19 2009

and after Cast January 2009- October 2012 they do not count those killed in Israel'smost recent foray into Gaza in November of 2012 the stats are very inclusive of all parties who were killed and by whom

http://www.btselem.org/statistics

what you will find is that well over 6000 Palestinians have been killed in the West Bank and Gaza by Israeli Security forces and some by Israeli civilians too

[bravenak]

40. Just as I suspected.

I wish I were surprised. Thank you for the link.

[King_David]

70. 60 000 killed in Syria last year ,

I should post that in DU's special forum that they have for the Syrian conflict .

You know the forum with non Syrians non Muslim , non Arab westerners that are totally obsessed with what's going on in that land.

[azurnoir]

73. yes they were and that's a tragedy

however we're discussing Israel/Palestine here, if you'd like a Syria group go to the ask the Administrators forum and ask about that

as for the rest not quite sure what your babbling on about

[King_David]

74. It's amazing what type

Of people obsess over this topic and what motivates them...

( that's what I'm babbling about)

The Syrian conflict has almost the same actors sans one particular ethnic group.

[azurnoir]

75. Quote: It's amazing what type Of people obsess over this topic and what motivates them

so tell us what type and what motivates in your mind please don't spare us any words either

[King_David]

76. Nope it's not necessary for me to do that,

Thanks.

[azurnoir]

77. why isn't it? it was your quote, why are you unwilling to back up your own words?

unless of course that comment was sort of just filler ?

[King_David]

78. Yes

[delrem]

81. Nice "filler", Dave.

[oberliner]

82. What does "Dave" signify?

I am not understanding this.

[azurnoir]

83. it's short for David

that seems to escape you for some reason though

[delrem]

85. aw, I wanted to set him a puzzle, to while away his summer time...

[King_David]

86. Since I have told that dude he may not call me Dave

It actually signifies a level of immaturity that this poster has in interacting with myself.

[azurnoir]

93. well I used to asked that people don't call me Az or usually AZ as if.....

but myself I just learned to roll with it

[King_David]

94. I don't see anyone of us that have been around here for a while,

Ever call you "Az" since the day you told us not to.

That would be disrespectful and extremely immature .

[delrem]

154. I'd call you "az" for short, like I'd call someone "Dave",

If I were agreeing with you, it'd be "az" with a certain friendliness, but no more than "azurnoir". Nobody of sound mind would mistake what I was saying. If I were disagreeing with, specifically you, I might address you "azurnoir", and exactly the same tone would attach if I used "az". In no case would I be meaning something "homophobic". That suggestion is out to lunch.

The person posting under the name "King_David" is obviously very sensitive to anything that he can possibly perceive to be a slight, so "Dave" or "David" aren't seen as ordinary diminutives, to save time, but "homophobic" and who know what else. I'm unsure if I should use "KD". One thing for sure - it is only KD's views that I disagree with, not his very being as a human, and I'd like to keep it on the plane of exchanging various views, however antithetical to each other, so I'll use "KD" for short, or "King_David" if I feel energetic, from hereon. If "KD" is considered "homophobic" then fuggim....

On the other hand, KD himself doesn't have much sense of barriers, red lines, and is very quick to slander with "antisemitism" and "homophobic". This case, connecting the names "Dave" and "David" to homophobia and antisemitism is a case in point. It's fuckin ridiculous, esp. when it's his the first and last word on the actual topic at hand.

[delrem]

84. Good, I don't *want* you to understand.

[King_David]

87. Since I have told you before that you may not call me Dave

What it does signify is a level of immaturity that this poster has in interacting with myself.

You once had a post deleted by jury for calling me an "asshole" so by calling me something that I have told you not to, I guess it's the next best immature thing.

[delrem]

88. You demand that I address you with the honorific "King"? No, don't subscribe to aristocracy, David.

Hows that? It's the best you'll get. As to whether you were acting an asshole - I haven't changed my mind on that.

[King_David]

90. QED

..QED


I'm sure you believe that Pelsar is actually a bullet and Shira actually a song or poem too?

[King_David]

95. Azurnoir once and only once asked us not to call her "Az"

And none of us who were around then,ever have.

Because that would be extremely childish and immature.

[delrem]

96. Well, try to get over it.

[King_David]

97. QED

[delrem]

99. If that helps you get over it, poor fellow, go for it.

[bravenak]

161. You must call him Your Majesty, or Your Grace I believe.

He gets cranky.

[bravenak]

127. Yes you should.

It would be appropriate.

[King_David]

129. Not enough people obsessed with that conflict

To support a forum in this website.

The People of the Jewish state are not actively involved their to sustain any interest or obsession by the non actors .

[bravenak]

134. Your Majesty, Then why bring it up.

Just to say never mind. You don't give a care bout Syria. You just wanna deflect from the topic.
Israel has been occupying another nation.
It's not the best plan.
If Palestinians fight back theyre terrorists.
In America we would call them freedom fighters if Canada was occupying us.
Israel cannot afford to arm itself without out help.
Israel hates its neighbors, call Palestinians dogs.
It's neighbors hate them too.
The occupation makes them even more hated.
If you were born after 67 in palestine you have never lived in a world without the occupation.
Israel is acting like America. But it ain't got the chops to sustain this without our help.
So, your Grace, ( you are a king right)
You can stop defending them.
They got this.
Signed,
Lady
BlackRavenAlaska ( pleased do not forget the honorific title of lady before my name. It is required of kings and nobility to address me as My Lady)

[oberliner]

57. Assisting the Palestinians in killing each other?

Are you for real?

[bravenak]

113. Yes.

The Israeli army is so much better at it.

[muxin]

118. And how many already killed by the Israel so far?

My question was for both sides, let's be fair and don't hide anything

[oberliner]

120. About 1500

For the same time period as noted above.

[muxin]

123. Thank you, at least we know who's the greatest abuser of human rights now

[oberliner]

124. Glad to help

All the best!

[LeftishBrit]

72. Sometimes several problems are occurring at the same time, and are not alternatives.

The Palestinians are badly treated by the Israeli government AND by their own leaders AND by several of the Arab states. The existence of any one of these abuses does not nullify the others.