Holocaust Remembrance Day in Israel: Something’s missing

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

http://972mag.com/holocaust-remembrance-day-in-israel-something-missing/68761/

I was taught that the words “never again” mean never again to anyone. I was taught that the story of survival was about perseverance, not persecution. I was taught that as survivors of one of the most horrific and unimaginable crimes in the history of mankind, the Jewish people were endowed with a special responsibility to prevent such atrocities from ever occurring to any man, anywhere, any time, ever again. However, after living in Israel for almost three years, I am beginning to believe that this education was not universal. Searching through the three major Israeli newspapers on Yom HaShoah, I could not find even one op-ed that even resembled these ideas of using the lessons of our own tragedies to help others. Aside from the almost gratuitous articles about a glitch in the siren sounded in Tel Aviv and technical reporting of the day’s events, it seems that not one Israeli newspaper was willing to take the lessons of the Holocaust out of the context of Jewish suffering and to apply it to all persecuted peoples.

In no way do I intend to trivialize the memory of the 6 million Jews who were slaughtered at the hands of the Nazis. In no way do I intend to lessen the importance of honoring their memory. I am, however, shocked that my Jewish brethren are so afraid of using that memory to make the world a better place for all of mankind. That it is trivial to apply “never again” to the helpless people of Darfur (who are being slaughtered as you read this) sickens me. That we use the imagery and memory of Hitler’s crimes to justify war with Iran would make my grandmother turn over in her grave. That we do not see it as our place in the world to be the most outspoken advocate for all threatened peoples makes me question if we have learned any lessons from our victimhood.

[Jefferson23]

1. *In no way do I intend to trivialize the memory of the 6 million Jews who were

were slaughtered at the hands of the Nazis.

Nor portray them as weak.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

2. Some don't see it that way and have a rather myopic view of things.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=35391

But it's important for people to realize that since 1948 Jews are proud and strong and not the weaklings our grandparents were , thanks to Israel and the IDF .

Perhaps Michael Omer-Man has an ability to see what others reject outright or fail completely to see?

[King_David]

3. Thankfully never again will Jews go like lambs to slaughter,

Where once we were weak now we are strong.......






?w=450

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

5. Sometimes cruel, other times just stupid.

As you were saying?

[Jefferson23]

6. This would be your way of imagining strength...sad.

Thankfully, you do not speak for Holocaust victims in any official capacity.

[azurnoir]

7. it's an attitude that has existed for years

Sanbar traces this attitude to survivors' experiences just after their liberation from the death camps and arrival in the nascent Jewish state.

"They called us the sabonim," he says—using Hebrew slang for "cowards."

But it also sounds like the Hebrew word "sabon," or soap, which survivors perceived as a reference to the soap the Nazis made from Jewish corpses.

With some justice, survivors arriving in Israel felt stigmatized. Israelis were creating a "new Jew," symbolized by the sun-tanned kibbutznik working the fields or the fearless underground fighter.

They looked down on the passivity of European Jews, who they felt went like sheep to the slaughter.

http://www.jweekly.com/includes/print/8957/article/israeli-public-seems-indifferent-to-swiss-restitution-settlement/

[King_David]

11. Looked down upon ???

Never !!!

But the state of Israel gives teeth and meaning to " never again"

As I said once Jews were weak and now we are strong.

[azurnoir]

13. well the article was written by a Holocaust survivor in Israel

take it up with him

[King_David]

10. Guess you never went to Jewish Day school

[Jefferson23]

12. You're blaming your twisted view on your Jewish Day school....figures. n/t

[azurnoir]

15. well we also have this take on the Holocaust and which victims the term applies too

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x340514

the number that dies in the camps is 11 million, I've seen it placed as high as 13 million but I guess all those 'others' are not really Holocaust victims or something

[King_David]

19. I do not get your logic there,

and as a LGBT community member ,disagree with you completely

[azurnoir]

20. If you click the link it was not my take it indeed was the statement of the poster in the link

or did you simply wish to attribute a rather closed stance on just who are Holocaust victims made by another poster to me?

[delrem]

25. Since you're a Jew, a member of the LGBT community, and claim to be 100% a Dem

all your opinions are anointed as by nature to be the kind of sacred prophetic scripture.
How could it be any other way, King_David?

Isn't that why the fact that you say them is the only ground you have for your arguments?
Because your opinion must necessarily prevail - just because they're yours?

[King_David]

73. I am an Atheist Jew,

So 'sacred prophetic scripture'; does not mean that much to me.

[King_David]

17. Nope , I'm telling you that I was taught and still believe

that since Israel , the Jews became strong.
And the reason a the Holocaust will never happen again is the existence of The Jewish State and the IDF .

They still teach this at our schools camps synagogue JCC etc etc

And we believe it ... And so do the antisemites .

[Jefferson23]

50. I have news for you, Jews were never weak, despite whatever bullshit you were taught. n/t

[shira]

51. Helpless. But not anymore. n/t

[King_David]

68. Golda Meir,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=38948

[Jefferson23]

78. No surprise you'd highlight her.

Like I said before...Jews were never weak, not ever.

[King_David]

79. We strong now

And if Israel was around in 1930s 1940s there would not have been a Holocaust.

[Jefferson23]

80. Clueless and disrepectful, just stop already. n/t

[King_David]

81. Disrespectful ?

Your joking right?

Proud , upright ? You bet.

Wasn't always like this in history and the world only took note since 1948..

[King_David]

82. What Obama said ,

'"During the Holocaust, the Jewish People were helpless and its rescuers came too late. Today, the Jewish People have a state and an army and it can defend itself by itself against any foe," he said during the visit.'

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/770025.shtml#.UWORdb5zaUk

[King_David]

83. Quoting Obama:

'"During the Holocaust, the Jewish People were helpless and its rescuers came too late. Today, the Jewish People have a state and an army and it can defend itself by itself against any foe," he said during the visit.'

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/770025.shtml#.UWORdb5zaUk

[azurnoir]

95. Do you agree with too from your link

The only way for Israel to endure and thrive as a Jewish and democratic state is through the realization of an independent and viable Palestine. Given the frustration in the international community, Israel must reverse an undertow of isolation," Obama said

[King_David]

84. President Obama,

'"During the Holocaust, the Jewish People were helpless and its rescuers came too late. Today, the Jewish People have a state and an army and it can defend itself by itself against any foe," he said during the visit.'

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/770025.shtml#.UWORdb5zaUk

[holdencaufield]

21. You have a problem with Jewish schools?

[Jefferson23]

54. No, have any more dumb questions? n/t

[King_David]

18. I am a board member on a major Jewish Zionist organization,

you?

[delrem]

26. So, when I listen to you, holden, shira and the others on your tag-team,

this is how you demand that I understand all Jews to think and believe?
Really?

Because I tell you, King_David, your desire is contraindicated by the fact there are many Jews, Arabs, Chinese, Germans, Italians, ...living and interacting in my multicultural neighborhood, and I've worked with and befriended many Jews in various political, educational, recreational activities just as I've worked with and befriended people of sects and nationalities from all over the world, and you guys don't sound anything like them. You just don't.

[King_David]

27. Yes yes , some of your best friends are Jewish nt

[Jefferson23]

53. I'm not a member of a Zionist organization, it's not a requirement.

Your organization publishes literature? If so, please link it. I'm not sure why you consider this
to qualify you as an official representative of Holocaust victims. If that is your claim.

[King_David]

4. Some were very strong Indeed,

'JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel dedicated its annual memorial day for the six million Jews killed in the Holocaust to mark 70 years to the Warsaw ghetto uprising, a symbol of Jewish resistance against the Nazis in World War II that resonates deeply in Israel to this day.

At the opening ceremony at nightfall, President Shimon Peres and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu linked the desperate Jewish revolt of 1943 to the warrior mentality that enabled the creation of Israel five years later.

“There was a never a rebellion like it. They were so few and their bravery remained as a model for so many,” Peres said at Yad Vashem, Israel’s official Holocaust memorial, before hundreds of Holocaust survivors and their families, Israeli leaders, diplomats and others.

“A clear line exists between the resistance in the ghettos, in the camps and in the forests and the rebirth and bravery of the state of Israel. It is a line of dignity, of renewed independence, of mutual responsibility, of exalting God’s name,” he said, “as a ray of hope which was not extinguished even during terrible anguish. The ghetto fighters sought life even when circumstance screamed despair.”



http://thechronicleherald.ca/world/1122166-world-in-brief-april-7-2013

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

8. Strange. I thought you described them as weaklings?

[King_David]

9. You understand the meaning of the word "some"

I presume.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

14. Your previous words seem to have a permanence to them

that you are now trying to erase? Now it is some where before it was apparently none.

But it's important for people to realize that since 1948 Jews are proud and strong and not the weaklings our grandparents were , thanks to Israel and the IDF .

The more imporant question is do you have an understanding of your own words?

[King_David]

16. Jews were weak in the past...

And the antisemites took advantage of this and pogroms and inquisitions and the Holocaust occurred .

That is why Israel is the antisemite's worst nightmare .

The Jews are strong , and the Jew haters can't stomach it.

Strong Jews are the antisemite's worst nightmare and Jews all over the world celebrate this on Yom Haatzmaut .

[holdencaufield]

22. "Strong Jews are the antisemite's worst nightmare"

Which would explain why some so intensely despise and revile Israel and the IDF. Jews as non-victims clearly make them uncomfortable.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

30. What a splendid turnaround.

"Jews as non-victims" is a great way of deflecting from IDF aggression.

[shira]

52. Here's Golda Meir saying the same thing, as quoted by Uri Avnery....

Throughout the debate, Golda Meir – as was her wont – stood at the door of the plenum hall, chain-smoking. Summing up, she answered every speaker in turn, ignoring my speech. I thought that she had decided to boycott me, when – after a dramatic pause – she turned in my direction. “Deputy Avnery thinks that they hate us because of what we do. He does not know the goyim. The goyim love the Jews when they are beaten and miserable. They hate the Jews when they are victorious and successful.” If clapping were allowed in the Knesset, the whole house would have burst into thunderous applause.

http://original.antiwar.com/avnery/2010/08/29/the-boycott-israel-movement-needs-to-rethink-tactics/

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

28. But that's not what you wrote earlier.

[King_David]

31. Every post is unique as is this one,

Any substantial reply welcomed.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

33. Nope. I'll let the divide between your two comments stand.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

37. In addition...

Last edited Tue Apr 9, 2013, 07:51 PM - Edit history (4)

On edit: Since there are a few that may wish to alert on this post to silence dialog take a look at the I/P guide lines.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134287

I have violated nothing.

“A clear line exists between the resistance in the ghettos, in the camps and in the forests and the rebirth and bravery of the state of Israel. It is a line of dignity, of renewed independence, of mutual responsibility, of exalting God’s name,” he said, “as a ray of hope which was not extinguished even during terrible anguish. The ghetto fighters sought life even when circumstance screamed despair.”

Sounds like that Palestinians are doing the same thing in resisting the Israelis as Shimon Peres pointed out how the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto uprising resisted against the Nazis.

Sure there are similarities and differences. The Nazis sought to remove many types of what they saw as undesirables from the earth whereas Israel just wants to push the Palestinians off their lands or into tiny reservations.

[King_David]

49. Nazi comparison with the Jewish State are not allowed here

In this forum and I refuse to debate such filth .

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

69. Neither is posting photos, which you do all the time, or

using the term Zionist to mean Jew or Israeli.

And if you noticed I didn't call Israel "The Nazis: inasmuch as I compared the Palestinians to the Jews. I also never called the Jews "Nazis."

Points from the I/P guidelines highlighting the word Nazi.

• Do not compare Middle East regional leaders and parties to Hitler or the Nazis. Use of these terms is considered inflammatory and should be avoided.

• Do not call other members of this message board "terror apologist," "Palestinian apologist," "Israeli apologist," "Nazi," "Fascist," "Sharonist," "Likudist", etc.

[King_David]

70. Posting filthy Nazi Comparisons is the same as posting photos ?

Thanks for the insight,


Your something else.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

71. It's You're for starters.

Secondly, read the I/P guidelines, and tell me the ones you have violated.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134287

[King_David]

72. Your post comparing IP and The Jewish State to Nazi

Was filth.

Do not much care to discuss any other tangent be it photos cartoons or dates on OP pieces.

Comparing Jews to Nazis is 100% filth !

[shira]

74. Comparing Blacks to slave holders is coming up next! n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

77. No, but some getting more shrill by the moment is certainly a possibility.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

76. I guess that you couldn't find anything in the guidelines, right?

And I guess that it doesn't matter that YOU break the real guidelines all the time. Shall I point them all out to you?

On edit: What I really believe burns your ass was that I DID make a comparison between the Palestinians and Jews.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

85. Thanks for running away.

I really was comparing the Palestinians to the European Jews during WWII.

But do go on. When I say Israel do you automatically believe that I said Jews?


That's really messed up of you.

[King_David]

86. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=38941

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

89. I understand how you wouldn't want to debate the similarities

between the Palestinians and European Jews of WWII. Too close to home for you and all.

[shira]

98. Did the European Jews push their own kids into goading Nazi SS troops like this....

...in order to provoke a reaction?

Did the Jews have some charter or constitution calling for the annhilation of all German citizens?

Were the evil European Zionists of WW2 allies of Hitler, forming their own SS troops to kill off thousands of Jews.....or was that the Palestinian leader of the time (Hitler's Mufti)?

Go back to clown school.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

99. Good question. did they?

Lets' say they did for a moment. It wouldn't make the atrocities that were visited on them any more valid or the Nazis any more just in their actions.

Now getting back to reality. How's that land theft and apartheid going for Israel?

[shira]

102. Fuck no, they didn't. They knew it was instant death.

OTOH, the Palestinians trust the IDF not to harm them.

Big difference, don't you think?

========

Now I'd answer about apartheid, but it's obvious you don't know what it is when you fail to detect the most obvious case of apartheid vs. Palestinians just north of the Israeli border in Lebanon.

Once you figure out what apartheid is, we can talk.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

103. "OTOH, the Palestinians trust the IDF not to harm them."

So when the IDF shoots them in the face and in the back what is that? Oops?

[azurnoir]

90. he did not compare Israel to Nazi Germany he indeed pointed out how it is different

is that the part you do not like?

[King_David]

91. Here's an unedited version ( edited after I objected )

Original version with no edits.
37. In addition...
�A clear line exists between the resistance in the ghettos, in the camps and in the forests and the rebirth and bravery of the state of Israel. It is a line of dignity, of renewed independence, of mutual responsibility, of exalting God�s name,� he said, �as a ray of hope which was not extinguished even during terrible anguish. The ghetto fighters sought life even when circumstance screamed despair.�


Sounds like that Palestinians are doing the same thing in resisting the Israelis as Shimon Peres pointed out how the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto uprising resisted against the Nazis.

Sure there are similarities and differences. The Nazis sought to remove many types of what they saw as undesirables from the earth whereas Israel just wants to push the Palestinians off their lands or into tiny reservations.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[azurnoir]

92. I saw the unedited version after you objected

and the comparison was to the Warsaw Ghetto fighters BTW is that really what you do not like
?

[King_David]

93. You think it's acceptable :

"Sure there are similarities and differences. The Nazis sought to remove many types of what they saw as undesirables from the earth whereas Israel just wants to push the Palestinians off their lands or into tiny reservations.

The more things change, the more they stay the same."

Similarities between Jews and Nazis ???

And :

"Sounds like that Palestinians are doing the same thing in resisting the Israelis as Shimon Peres pointed out how the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto uprising resisted against the Nazis. "

If the Palustinians are the Jews prey tell who are the Nazis ???



You agree with this filth ???

[azurnoir]

94. it was more similarities between Jewish resistance fighters in the Warsaw Ghetto and Palestinian

and it is that IMO that really has you upset

[King_David]

96. I refuse to discuss any comparison WHATSOEVER with The Jewish State and Nazi Germany

Damn straight that FILTH gets me upset.



But do carry on with that train of thought I find it disgusting and this threads revealing for all to read, I will not even debate it any longer.

[azurnoir]

97. well if that is how you choose to see it IMO it is not a comparison of Israel to Nazi's

but I do understand why you would claim so

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

100. It's an easy way for one to run away from an argument.

Israel treats Palestinians like dirt, take their land, occupies their territory, turns part of it into a ghetto, and then when it is pointed out that there are similarities between Palestinians and how European Jews have been treated during WWII all hell breaks loose.

[azurnoir]

101. well there you have it n/t

[shira]

55. How low can you go? That's just vile....

It's enough you compare SA apartheid to what Israel does.

But now the Holocaust and Nazis?

Disgusting.

============

Palestinians are treated far better (equal rights) in Israel than in any other mideast country. They've been offered a state many times since 1937 (not by Egypt or Jordan from '48-'67). Also, Hamas and PLO ideology (just like that of the Grand Mufti way back in the 20's and 30's) calls for genocide against Jews.

Shameless.

[Jefferson23]

57. Pack of horse shit from you, as usual:

Palestinians are treated far better (equal rights) in Israel than in any other mideast country. They've been offered a state many times since 1937 (not by Egypt or Jordan from '48-'67). Also, Hamas and PLO ideology (just like that of the Grand Mufti way back in the 20's and 30's) calls for genocide against Jews.

[shira]

59. More intentional blindness and denial from you, as usual. n/t

[Jefferson23]

62. What am I blind to and in denial about?

Zeev Maoz is Professor of Political Science at the University of California, Davis. He is the former head of the Graduate School of Government and Policy and of the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies at Tel Aviv University, as well as the former academic director of the M.A. Program at the Israeli Defense Forces' National Defense College.

Defending the Holy Land is the most comprehensive analysis to date of Israel's national security and foreign policy, from the inception of the State of Israel to the present. Author Zeev Maoz's unique double perspective, as both an expert on the Israeli security establishment and esteemed scholar of Mideast politics, enables him to describe in harrowing detail the tragic recklessness and self-made traps that pervade the history of Israeli security operations and foreign policy.

Most of the wars in which Israel was involved, Maoz shows, were entirely avoidable, the result of deliberate Israeli aggression, flawed decision-making, and misguided conflict management strategies. None, with the possible exception of the 1948 War of Independence, were what Israelis call "wars of necessity." They were all wars of choice-or, worse, folly.

Demonstrating that Israel's national security policy rested on the shaky pairing of a trigger-happy approach to the use of force with a hesitant and reactive peace diplomacy, Defending the Holy Land recounts in minute-by-minute detail how the ascendancy of Israel's security establishment over its foreign policy apparatus led to unnecessary wars and missed opportunities for peace.

http://www.amazon.com/Defending-Holy-Land-Critical-Analysis/dp/0472033417

Bio: http://psfaculty.ucdavis.edu/zmaoz/

[shira]

64. That has nothing to do with anything. Why can't you answer to specifics.....

...without citing some article that is barely relevant (or not relevant at all) to the conversation?

Fact 1: Palestinians are treated equally in Israel as opposed to nowhere else throughout the mideast.

Fact 2: Hamas and the PLO have genocidal charters that call for the destruction of Israel and/or its Jews.

Fact 3: Israel has offered the Palestinians their own state several times. The Palestinians have rejected every offer since 1937.


The article you cite has zero to do with any of those facts.

[Jefferson23]

65. It has everything to do with it...all of it.

All addressed, each of your alleged facts.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

75. Coming from you that is a compliment.

But go on, do tell DU how much better the Palestinians have it under Apartheid Israel.

[King_David]

87. I hope no one alerts,

Would hate these posts of yours in this thread to be hidden.

Its best people be able to judge whom they dealing with in 'debate' and to judge different poster's prejudice.

As for closing down dialogue...I doubt anyone would debate that topic with you, it was banned in DU2 and its revealing whom would be prepared to even broach it.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

88. Well, if you have to alert then do so. I've made it clear in my post that there

are no I/P guidelines that prohibit what I have written, but you seemingly break the guidelines all the time.

it was banned in DU2

There's no mention of it in the guidelines. Good luck.


And once again, I was really comparing the plight of the Palestinians with the European Jews of WWII.

[Behind the Aegis]

23. Nothing is missing.

It is a day to remember the holocaust against OUR people, not all others. It isn't to say it can't be mentioned, especially on the other 364/5 days of the year, but on a day commemorating the Holocaust; no, there is nothing "missing" when the discussion centers completely around the destruction of our people.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

29. Perhaps you should reflect on post #24.

[King_David]

32. So should you and others in this group

Especially this part:

"The Holocaust has two lessons for Jews – not to be powerless"

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

35. There's a difference between being powerless and being belligerent.

The Holocaust has two lessons for Jews – not to be powerless and not to abuse the powerless. We’ve learned the first lesson brilliantly, the second one hardly at all.

[Behind the Aegis]

40. No need to reflect on an unsubstantiated POS quote like that one.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

41. LOL. No, I think you should.

If it ruffles the feathers then perhaps there is something to it that you should consider.

Truth is not always comfortable.

[Behind the Aegis]

42. It isn't the truth. It is a speculative opinion by someone who is a tool (LD).

The first part is about the Jews, the second part is clearly about Israel, but Israel is not representative of all Jews. Aren't you one of the ones constantly howling when people conflate the two? What proof does the person have that Jews, as a people, are abusing the powerless? After all, the quote is supposed to be about Jews. So why don't you reflect on that.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

43. I could say the same thing about what you just wrote.

You ask me about Israel not being 100% Jewish yet I see others here post the rah rah over the top salute to Israel all the time. I don't see them supporting the 24.6% that are not Jewish.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113438809#post11

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=38926


Thanks for your"speculative opinion."

[Behind the Aegis]

44. A poorly crafted word salad.

I didn't ask you anything about Israel being 100% Jewish, I asked if you were one of the ones constantly howling about conflating Jews and Israel. As expected, you deflected to the words of others and make some bizarre reference about cheerleading, as if you and others don't do the same, just not in a positive way. The quote you find so enlightening is doing just that.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

45. That's nice. I guess I can thank you for your speculation now?

[azurnoir]

48. Well except one thing no ones mentioned

and that is January 27 2013 was international Holocaust Remembrance Day

On January 27, 1945, Soviet forces liberated the Auschwitz-Birkenau extermination camp, discovering the largest Nazi killing center in Europe. Auschwitz has become a symbol of the Holocaust, representing the depths of man's inhumanity to man. Eighteen governments have legislated January 27 as an annual Holocaust Memorial Day. In November 2005, the United Nations passed a resolution to mark January 27 as an international day of commemoration to honor the victims of the Holocaust, and urged member states to develop educational programs to impart the memory of this tragedy to future generations. Holocaust Remembrance Day ceremonies will be organized on the international, national, regional and local levels, including in universities and schools. This site contains educational materials ahead of this date in multiple languages.

http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/education/educational_materials/january27_2013.asp

today is Israel's Holocaust Remembrance Day sunset April 7 to sunset April 8 or Nisan 27-28, 5773 on the Hebrew calendar

[Israeli]

24. comment on there

that I completely agree with :


The Holocaust has two lessons for Jews – not to be powerless and not to abuse the powerless. We’ve learned the first lesson brilliantly, the second one hardly at all.

Larry Derfner

[Mosby]

34. I don't understand the quote

Is he saying that Palestinians are "powerless" in other words just helpless victims of Israel?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

36. I'm not sure if you can be taken seriously after writing that.

[Mosby]

38. that's funny

See I think the Palestinians are quite capable of deciding their future and if they can be characterized as victims, then they they are victims of their (one time elected) shitty leadership.

You on the other hand can't even bring youself to admit that the Lebanese are practicing apartheid against the Palestinians living there. You're nothing but a propogandist, and not a very good one imo.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

39. I'm really sad that you can't deflect away to another country.

Let's stick with Israel and their lousy human rights record, land thefts by fraud, land thefts by military action, illegal settlements, destruction of Palestinian homes farms and livestock, harassment of Palestinians by illegal settlers, shooting deaths of Palestinians by IDF and on and on and on.

Perhaps the Palestinians should have their own Warsaw uprising. I would rather not have it go that far at all and would hate to see it. Instead I would wish to see reason take hold on both parties: Israel and Palestine.

Perhaps if the Palestinians had a homeland of their own, devoid of Israeli colonization, then those scattered Palestinians would be able to come home and not have to worry about being refugees...kind of what modern Israelis can understand and enjoy.

[Mosby]

46. You really are incapable of critizising Arab countries for their treatment of Palestinians.

You just can't admit that there is apartheid in Lebanon and that Palestinians are far worse off there than in the OTs.

Why are there refugee camps in the West Bank? Care to answer that?

Do you think Jews should be able to live in the future state of Palestine like Muslims and others do in Israel?

[azurnoir]

47. well of course it's all the Arabs fault isn't it?

I mean if Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan especially had but only let them become citizens then there' would hardly be a problem, right? Yes those bothersome refugee Arabs should be made comfortable right where they are-outside of Judea and Samaria, your concern truly touches me

[shira]

58. You can't criticize Arab leadership either for their inhumane treatment....

...of Palestinians.

Why is that?

What do you fear by doing so?

[azurnoir]

61. so your saying that Arabs should be the ones to give Palestinians their own state?

or make Palestinians part of their existing state, is that it? I mean after all they areall Arabs , what difference does it make, right?
But yes if it comforts you Palestinians have been treated badly in some Arab countries, it's just that we have different solutions you would have them made citizens of any country other than their own and I would have them have their own country

[shira]

63. Stop deflecting. You're incapable of criticizing Arab leadership....

As to Israel and Palestinians, Israel has offered the Palestinians their own state several times. The refugee situation could've been over with 12 years ago.

Why are you incapable of criticizing Arab leadership? Is it because you support them?

[azurnoir]

66. well someones deflecting that's for sure

but I asked a question, why don't you answer it?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

67. One by one. I'll knock down your nonsense.

You really are incapable of critizising Arab countries for their treatment of Palestinians.

No, I can, but I direct my attention towards I/P and issues surrounding I/P since this is the I/P group. I do understand that I/P is a loose term since there is really no control over what some post here: articles about beauty queens, articles about Syria (better put in the Mid East Group) articles about whatever distraction that will draw attention away from the I/P issue.

You just can't admit that there is apartheid in Lebanon and that Palestinians are far worse off there than in the OTs.

I find that odd that you would look elsewhere, again another deflection, for apartheid against that Palestinians when the best source for it is in their own hpmeland (The West Bank) as exercised against them by the IDF and illegal Israeli Settlers.

Why are there refugee camps in the West Bank? Care to answer that?

What part of the West Bank? The 18% that the PA controls? Most other parts of the West Bank are closed to Palestinians. Perhaps if Israel would stop colonizing the WB and running Palestinians off then there wouldn't be so many refugees.

Do you think Jews should be able to live in the future state of Palestine like Muslims and others do in Israel?

Sure, why not? It should be a given. I just don't believe that territory that belongs to the West bank should be lifted and acquired by Israel solely to house a projected 1 million Israelis that didn't live there 30+ years ago. That, my friend is called colonization.

[shira]

56. Derfner defended Greta Berlin's gutter antisemitism. 'Nuff said. n/t