A Chinese Life Is Worth Less Than a Middle Eastern Life

[shira]

Imagine the international uproar if 100 young Palestinian Arabs burnt themselves to death while demanding Israel return land to the Arabs? Not 100 at once, but one by one, one could envision the topic dominating world headlines. Coverage of funerals, visuals of their families and undoubtedly we’d see pundit after pundit pontificating on the need to “understand their frustrations.”

Meanwhile, in Nepal, 100 Tibetans have burnt themselves to death to protest Chinese rule of Tibet – and it has largely been ignored by the media. No calls for China to give in to Tibet because of the poor oppressed Tibetian people – no U.N. peace force, and little media coverage. In December 2010, a Tunisian fruit-vendor set himself on fire, and media coverage of subsequent Arab riots and the “Arab spring” fueled global headlines for months on end. Despite the fact that China is a world power, the Middle East is more interesting to the media, and for the media seemingly a Chinese life is worth less than a Middle Eastern one.

In the media coverage we do see, one doesn’t see China blamed for the decision of the Tibetans to kill themselves, even since the 2008 Beijing Olympics where there were demonstrations about these issues. The Government of China has monks in “re-education” campaigns that involve arrests, beatings, and worse. The freedom of religion of these monks is under assault – as is democracy in China. Yet, one won’t read about these things in the media, and it’s rare to find stories holding China accountable for these suicides which are being committed.

Contrast that to Middle Eastern media coverage – where there’s a regular villain. While suicide bombers harm many people, media outlets often refers to them as militants rather than terrorists. When a young Tibetan monk burns himself to death it barely registers.

http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/02/21/a-chinese-life-is-worth-less-than-a-middle-eastern-life/

[Scootaloo]

1. Shira, your source is lying to you again.

The Government of China has monks in “re-education” campaigns that involve arrests, beatings, and worse. The freedom of religion of these monks is under assault – as is democracy in China. Yet, one won’t read about these things in the media, and it’s rare to find stories holding China accountable for these suicides which are being committed.

Really? I encourage you to go do a search on "Tibet immolation," from any branch of international media. Really, try it. BBC. Fox. New York Times. Go do it, tell me what you find.

Also, it's worth note that at the time of his suicide, Mohamed Bouazizi was not news at all. There was no "holy shit this guy just set himself on fire in Tunisia!" thing. Western media had no idea who this man was until the people of Tunisia were in open revolt and the Western media decided to ask why, some time later.

It just occurred to me. While you're searching for "Tibetan immolation" on these news sites, run a parallel search for "Palestinian hunger strike" or "Samer Issawi," see what you get. My results? Thousands of articles about the immolations in Tibet, most of them very eager to condemn China... and about twenty articles on the hunger strikes, most of them about solidarity protests turning violent. No mention of what the hunger strike was about, names of the strikers, nothing. In fact the only international media source that followed the claims of your source, is Al-Jazeera, with eleven articles focusing on Tibet, and over a thousand focusing on the Palestinian hunger strikes in the last three years. But then, Al-jazeera tends to focus primarily on the middle east (Haaretz has a similar pattern; dozens of articles about the hunger strikers, and a flat-out nothing about Tibet... .It's the regional focus, I presume)

And then there's MSNBC, with two articles about the strikes... and four about the Tibetan immolations. Though four is a pretty miserable number, all four are eager to jump on china's shit over it, so there's that.

Shira, my lovely Zionist Queen of the Lemurs, when you rely on a rag like algemeiner, with its front-page treatment of Alan Dershowitz and Daniel Pipes, you're not likely to get reliable information. I don't know where you can find reliable information that also suits your tastes (I suspect it's actually impossible) but I'm sure you can do better than this.

[nauthiz]

2. Wow, couldn't have said it better myself

This is what you get from someone that thinks thought out, legitimate criticisms of Israel amounts to being anti-semitic.

[shira]

4. Why doesn't Tibet get as much worldwide attention, advocacy, protests... as the Palestine?

Last edited Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:38 PM - Edit history (1)

We're talking occupation since 1951 of a sovereign nation over 1400 years old, over a million killed, the vast majority of its monastaries destroyed/pillaged, and deliberate cultural genocide by China.

We should expect to see folks who are very sensitive about human rights worldwide focusing on this at least as much as I/P.

[Scootaloo]

8. Maybe if you came up for air once in a while...

'Cause naturally if you spend all your time looking at nothing but I/P topics you're going to miss out on everything else that is going on.

If you're going to tell me Tibet is "below the radar," then all I can conclude is that you're tragically ignorant.

Again I invite you; research. You don't have to take Ronn Torossian's word for it. In fact that's probably completely counterproductive.

[delrem]

9. I think shira's point is that Tibet situation is somewhat similar to Palestinian

To be sure, the Chinese aren't building "settlements" and building Chinese only roads, and so on.
But Chinese rule is not wanted in Tibet, and rather than focusing on C/T topics in I/P, we focus on I/P topics in I/P, which clearly shows a prejudiced mindset.

In fact just as I/P posters are prejudiced against arguing C/T issues, I/P posters are prejudiced against arguing a whole ton of issues that aren't I/P, showing that said posters are antisemitic nazi terrorist apologists who focus on I/P issues because they're depraved monsters who engage in blood libel, antisemitism, and holocaust denial, just to begin.

[azurnoir]

10. No China is not building Chinese only roads but it is moving Chinese into Tibet

Basically, the demand is very simple. That Beijing implement its own laws and rules in TAR. Autonomy for major minority areas is a law of China. Freedom to practise religion is in the statute books. The Chinese authorities pride themselves on these laws.

Yet, there is no freedom of religion in Tibet. Possession of a photograph of the Dalai Lama is a crime. And where is autonomy? In fact, autonomous regions like Tibet, Xinjiang and Inner Mongolia are much more policed than any other administrative region in China. Minorities hardly ever rise in the hierarchy. To start with, they are suspect.

The Chinese authorities are correct when they claim development has been brought to Tibet. But who are the beneficiaries? Not the Tibetans but the Han Chinese who have been brought in. This is also a cause of resentment among the Tibetans.

But the authorities do not want to admit it, nor do they want to correct themselves. When Chinese NGOs point this out they are black listed and banned. Why?

Another problematic policy is ethnic engineering in autonomous regions. With the excuse of educating minority youth better and provide them suitable employment, they are being dispersed across the country and replaced by Hans. Today, Han Chinese are getting to be a majority in capitals and important centers in autonomous regions.

http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/node/1166

that said there are other factors Tibet is a forlorn area that simply does not and has never attracted the attention that the ME does add to that the Tibetans are a relatively small group numbering around 5.4 million globally, it is an often overlooked, which is unfortunate

[delrem]

86. There's a huge but ineffectual movement to highlight the plight of Tibet under China's dictate.

(On edit: After another reading of your post, I don't think I gave it its due. sorry. I better understand now.)

The free Tibet movement is worldwide.
Although the indigenous Tibetan political culture is religious (Tibetan Buddhist), it appears to be benign - and most important, not alien and militarily imposed.

w.r.t. I/P at DU, tho', there are a few minor differences to note.
1. I/P is focused on I/P, not T/C.
2. Israel has close connection to USA, and DU focuses on US politics.
3. Palestinian interests have been pissed on by the US.
4. The US uses UNSC veto power to enable Israel and disable Palestine at every turn.
5. The vast majority of US politicians (are there any that differ?) already take a rhetorical stance in favor of Tibetan rights vs. Chinese occupation. To be sure, this stance is only rhetorical - because actual US economic interests don't lie in that direction. The rhetoric is merely a self-serving moral front.
6. BDS against China is a fantasy proposition considering the trillions of US debt that China owns, and the dependence of the US economy on close ties with China. Other means of cracking that nut have to be developed, and it won't be easy. Likewise a BDS campaign against China enjoined by other countries would have little or no real effect on China/US economic relations - or on moving the US to any similar action.
7. I'm sure *everyone* on the democratic left would welcome new plans, actions, that might help free Tibet - including those on *both* sides of the I/P disputes. That is, I think it's a base canard that those who advocate for Palestinian freedom and autonomy, full equality for *all* within the lands between the Jordan and the mediterranean, don't give a shit about the freedom of Tibetans, or any other oppressed people.

[azurnoir]

87. all true points

and in addition any UNSC resolution would be vetoed by Russia and China both, starting about 21 years ago the FreeTibet movement in the US has brought a number of Tibetan refugees to the US, however the plight of most Tibetans is largely ignored in arena of world politics due in no small part IMO to the geographic isolation of Tibet itself not to mention the factors you enumerated

[Scootaloo]

11. Whatever Shira's point is, it could stand application of a bench grinder

I've seen better points on tennis balls.

[shira]

16. Still can't acknowledge there's a vast difference in advocacy WRT Tibet vs. IP, can you? n/t

[Scootaloo]

23. There's really not

And i can't help but point out, again, that for all your newfound interest in Tibet, you haven't been able to scrape up any level of give-a-fuck before you found this article on algemeir... And a search of algemeir reveals that not a single writer there has ever given a fuck, either.

That's your advocacy.

[shira]

27. Wow. There's not a disparity? Total Denial. Where are the Flytillas, BDS, UN non-stop action?

You're also misrepresenting the argument. And it appears now to be a deliberate act of desperation since you've been corrected on this many times already.

The argument isn't that your opponents care more about human rights than you do. It's that your opponents call shenanigans WRT the hypocrisy of your movement because you prove you're no more concerned about the human rights of Palestinians than someone like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is.

That's the argument.

But go on denying the hypocrisy exists....

[Scootaloo]

35. You're really boinging all over the place, aren't you?

Call me when you find a point and can follow it from beginning to finish without gibbering about the Iranian president or something, kay?

Your ignorance of things related to the Tibet situation is staggering. Really Shira, for fuck's sake, do some goddamned research instead of just blindly taking Ronn Torossian's word for it.

[shira]

42. One point from start to finish.... Not one UNGA resolution since 1965.

Forget the UNSCR since China sits on that committee.

And then there's the UNHRC, which hasn't tabled a resolution on Tibet since 2005:
http://www.savetibet.org/media-center/ict-news-reports/us-backs-away-un-resolution-human-rights-china

In a nod to Commission critics who judge its work as increasingly held hostage by chronic human rights violators among its members, Dobriansky concluded: "We need to put a stop to the trend of the world's worst human rights abusers securing membership on the Commission to deflect criticism of their abuses at home...If we do not reclaim this Commission for its mandate, we are allowing this body to be tarnished and turning our backs on those still fighting for the freedoms we possess."

Although China is a leader of the so-called "Like-minded Group" that attempts to use their seats on the Commission to block consideration of country-specific resolutions, Dobriansky did not did not specifically mention the unhelpful role they have played.

Where's the outrage from the uber-sensitive humanists from the anti-Israel contingent?

Non-stop UN action vs. Israel compared to 0.001% on Tibet?

[Scootaloo]

49. Good! you did some research!

And in the process you seem to have discovered your previous claims that there was no interest in Tibet whatsoever were completely fucking off-kilter, as you are now referencing savetibet.org, an organization that you were pretty adamantly claiming could not possibly exist. That's progress!

Yup, 1965 was the year china got on that council. China is also a permanent veto on the UN Security Council. Also, do take a look at who all has China as a major trade partner. And then there's a long list of nations that are in China's "sphere of influence" both local to east Asia and abroad, especially in Africa in recent years.

Comparing Israel and China is a lot like trying to compare Georgia and the United States. for all the Un proclaims "equality among nations," the truth is the bog boys speak first, then decide if they're going to let anyone else speak up. When's the last time any resolutions were passed against the United States, Great Britain, France, or Russia? You can't look at the US and tell me we haven't earned more than our share; where the fuck are they, then?

Congratulations, Shira, you've just found a valid complaint about the UN. keep it. Treasure it. Pet it on occasion, it's probably the only one you will ever have. I imagine you found it entirely by accident, because it's this very same situation that keeps Israel's tail out of hit water (via the US having all the same perks China does)

Speaking of Israel, I can't help but notice, Israel has never penned or even sponsored even failed resolutions against china on the Tibet issue. In fact, all my research points towards Israel and China having exceedingly warm relations. It so happens that Israel is China's second-largest foreign arms supplier (after Russia). Israel has even been known to snub Taiwan in an effort to keep its sunny relations with the People's Republic.

Your foundation looks awfully sandy to me Shira. But, at least you're putting forth effort. That's good! Keep it up!

[shira]

51. So let's agree the UN isn't about HR's as much as much as it's about politics.

Most UN resolutions or lack thereof point to hypocrisy and double-standards.

Agree?

Israel, BTW, is the only country in the UN not allowed to stand for election to the full range of UN bodies. Would you agree that's bigoted policy or apartheid?

[Scootaloo]

55. Agree with the first, not so much the second

So, "yes" and "sometimes."

I hope you didn't have a trap planned there, Shira, I mean really, you put all the nations of the world together and tell them "Okay, go work shit out" then fuck yes politics is going to be the order of the day. The most exhaustive, minutely-detailed politics you have ever seen. I had no illusions that the UN is totally about saving kittens from trees. I'm currently banging my head on a wall over Ban Ki-moon's refusal to give restitution to Haiti for the cholera epidemic the UN forces there caused.

And it's neither. Israel is the "only nation" in a lot of respects. For instance, it's the only nation in the UN that does not recognize its own borders. How weird is that?

[shira]

57. So when the UN passes far more resolutions vs. Israel than many...

....of the worst nations combined, you'd write that off to politics, correct? I know I do. It's not about hyper-sensitivity to anyone's human rights. At least we somewhat agree on the worthlessness of the UN when it comes to human rights. Many of your comrades here will defend the UN at all costs based solely on their record vs. Israel.

=========

You believe it's okay for the UN to practice apartheid vs. Israel (keeping it excluded from a lot of UN bodies) due to Israel not having defined borders?

[Scootaloo]

64. Not necessarily.

What these other offenders' resolutions lack in volume tends to be made up for in terms of impact. Israel gets lots of non-binding, watery resolutions that the US tends to swat out of the air anyway. Libya? Crippling sanctions. Serbia? military intervention. Iraq? Good lord man. Iran? Getting awfully pinched, aren't they? North Korea is treated like a dog that just rolled in its own poo and wants very badly to hump your leg. And the many nations in Africa...

...Well... My feeling is that for all your pants-shitting over how awful the organization is to Israel, the fact that its approach to issues in Africa is "have some dudes in blue helmets hand out cups of rice and smile for the camera" points to a much larger and frankly vastly more important problem. Ever think that the position you take is actually the inverse of what's going on, maybe Israel / Palestine gets more attention than, say, Rwanda's invasion of DR-Congo, not because the UN is "out to get" poow widdle Iswael, but rather because the nations of the UN don't give a fuck about sub-Saharan Africa?

And that's not apartheid. Or bigotry. is Israel as desperate to be more involved with the organization is hates so much? Is this like how it cares so much about Tibet that it helps arm china?

[shira]

65. I agree the UN doesn't give a f-ck about sub-Saharan Africa. That it's deeply racist....

I totally agree with you there. Many of your friends here are probably getting upset at you for admitting that.

Kudos to you!

But you're still deflecting from the UN's apartheid. It doesn't matter how Israel feels about the UN or how it plans on working with the organization. The point is they don't have full equal rights on par with every other nation on the planet.

Do you feel the UN should grant Israel equal rights?

[Scootaloo]

69. I just did a little research...

And I found this JVL piece talking about Israel's exclusion from regional groups:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/Jennings.html

It's dated 1999.

As it turns out, the very next year - 2000 - this changed. Israel became a member of the "West Europe and other Group" (WEOG) and was given a permanent renewal of this membership in 2004. It has full and equal participation as part of this group. an Israeli was even elected as vice-president of the UN in 2005 (Dan Gillerman)

However I also found this article from "eye on the UN" (barf) published a year later in 2005;
http://www.eyeontheun.org/facts.asp?1=1&p=18

It must not have been keeping a very good eye on the UN to have missed that big of a change in one of its primary grips. or, more likely and as the case tends to be for hasbara latrines like this, they decided to ignore it because most people evidently don't double-check their misinformation.

So... I'm not sure which source you're drawing from Shira, but either your information was out of date, or just an outright lie.

[shira]

70. Both sources are right. No contradiction....

Israel did join the WEOG but they are still excluded entirely from the UNHRC and UNSCR.

However, as a result of intense efforts, Israel’s isolation in the regional grouping system began to change. In May 2000, Israel became a temporary member of the Western European and Others States Group (WEOG) in New York. This membership was officially extended in May 2004. Israel’s admission to WEOG helped to partially rectify an anomaly, where no other nation was omitted from a regional group, and marked an important step towards the full integration of Israel into the United Nations system. Israel has agreed to continue to seek membership in its natural grouping in the Asian Group (the Asian group continues to deny Israel membership).

The positive implications of Israel’s admission into WEOG in New York notwithstanding, Israel remains excluded from the regional group system outside New York. As such, Israel can neither participate in Western group consultations and meetings outside of New York nor can it nominate candidates to United Nations positions in UN bodies where elections for those bodies are not organized by the New York regional group system.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/weog.html

[Violet_Crumble]

77. Another word you don't understand is apartheid...

Anyone who says that last bit that you did has no idea what the definition of apartheid is. I've seen you fling it around at all sorts of targets you dislike, yet you get angry and outraged when anyone dares point out that there is an apartheid style system in the West Bank.

[shira]

89. So when the UN denies only Israel equal representation, what would you call that?

Also, what would you call the situation in Lebanon WRT Palestinian refugees?

[Violet_Crumble]

91. It's not about what I call anything. It's about you using terms you don't understand...

And using them incorrectly. If yr interested in a crash course on what the term means and can grasp that it doesn't mean 'done by anything Shira hates', I can run you through it tomorrow night, though I'm pretty sure there's a deja vu feeling happening and the meaning's been explained to you many times before.

[shira]

93. Well then, do you see anything wrong in both cases...

1) Lebanese denial of equal rights to Palestinian refugees
2) The UN denial of equal rights to Israel

If so, how do you go about criticizing the injustice?

[Violet_Crumble]

95. What was that you said, Shira? You think you need to learn what the term apartheid means?

Oops. Was I supposed to forget that was what I popped up to correct you on? You seem to want to ignore that you don't have a clue what the definition of the term is and misused it in yr post. I expect nothing less from you, Shira, but my concern is that you'll pop up again a few posts down the line saying that the UN commits apartheid against Israel. I mean, it's likely you'll do that anyway even after sitting through a slow and patient explanation, so I need to hear from you whether you want to have a crash course on what the term apartheid means and why you were using it incorrectly. I'll be waiting patiently...well, not really. I'm heading off to bed and leaving you to it. And then tomorrow I'm going to go to work and see how many people and things I can accuse of apartheid before everyone gets sick of me and registers here to howl their protest at what you had a hand in creating.

Goodnight, Shira.

[shira]

97. Looks like more deflection from you. Same thing you do in other threads....

In this example, you pop up in a thread to tell me I don't know what apartheid is, rather than discuss the vile injustice vs. Palestinians in Lebanon. That's deflection.

You just did the same thing elsewhere when you deflected from inhumane Palestinian child abuse (making militants out of little children) by accusing me and others of bigotry.

What's your excuse WRT the Palestinian refugees stuck in Syria? What do you have to say about Abbas' comments WRT them better off dying than renounce RoR in order to get into the West Bank? Abbas lied about the GOI demand for giving up RoR. Would you like to attack/ridicule me in yet another attempt to deflect rather than address the inhumanity and injustice there??

[Violet_Crumble]

105. Deflection would be you ignoring any attempts to correct things you get wrong...

Something isn't deflection if it's replying to something yr yrself brought up. And bring it up is what you did in post 57

'You believe it's okay for the UN to practice apartheid vs. Israel (keeping it excluded from a lot of UN bodies) due to Israel not having defined borders'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=32721

Where did I accuse you and others of bigotry? Have you got a link? Or are you going to return and say it's in that thread you were locked out of. Y'know, the thread where you had a post hidden for accusing me of holding extremely bigoted views? And who are these 'others'?

Also, Ive noticed the more enraged you become, the more loaded questions you shoot off in fast volleys, and it especially seems to happen when yr trying to distract attention from a blunder you made in a previous post.



Y'know, if I were to accuse *you* of bigotry, it's likely my post would be hidden, so I don't do that. And as for attacking you, I recall you accused a few of us of attacking an extremely RW and very anti-Arab/Muslim writer you were posting lots of support for. Guess what? People here also attacked Bush a lot. More recently they attacked Romney and will always attack the Republicans. That's the way things work on a left-leaning site like DU. Maybe you should venture out of the I/P group for the first time ever and go and visit GD and see how it works? Also, when it comes to accusing others of bigotry, that's yr routine

[shira]

112. You're still deflecting & playing games w/ semantics and definitions.

Apartheid is defined as a policy or system of segregation or discrimination on grounds of race. That's what's happening at the UN with Israel. If you want to play games with "race" and argue Jews aren't a race, well then neither are Palestinians (it can be argued they're the same race actually). Therefore, if it isn't apartheid at the UN, then there's no way you can stay logically consistent WRT the Palestinians.

You claimed in the locked thread that posting pics of Palestinian child abuse is bigotry and that it's arguably incitement to genocide. I'd call that a deflection too since I've yet to see you condemn the adults responsible. All you're doing is proving the OP's argument.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

117. Do you refer to the Palestinians as Palestinians or

Arabs?

Oh, and the thread wasn't locked. Was it?

You may be mistaken.

[Violet_Crumble]

146. No, I'm not. I just don't follow you down all the rabbit holes you insist on going down in threads..

I've got some time now, so let's get you sorted out on yr misuse of the term apartheid. It's a social policy. It's applied to societies, not to anything and anyone who doesn't meet the criteria for membership of a group in the UN. Stop me and ask questions if any of this starts to confuse you, okay?

Apartheid as a term was invented to describe the government of South Africa's policy of racial segregation in order for a minority group to dominate over the majority of South Africans. They did this by enacting laws that separated people based on race and there was also economic and social discrimination. It was very similar to the segregation in some US states not all that many decades back. But to claim a country is a victim of apartheid because you hate the UN with the fury of a thousand burning haemmoroids? Nah, that doesn't work. But if you seriously believe that any slight you see aimed towards Israel is based on race, then that would mean that there's no criticism of Israel that you wouldn't view as being bigoted against Jews...

Ah, back to trying to circumvent a jury locking you out of a thread by kickstarting it in another thread? How many different threads are you going to pop up in doing this? For the record, I did nothing of the sort. If anyone wants to see what I actually said (which was that revolting stuff broadbrushing Palestinian parents as cowardly, articles titled 'Palestinians Kill Their Kids', and using dehumanising language that has been used in the past in lead ups to genocide is extremely bigoted and ugly) they can go to yr transparency page and travel to the thread you got locked out of.

Also, where did I accuse you of being a bigot? If yr going to make accusations then at least come through with something to back it up when called on it...

[shira]

150. So the UN doesn't allow Israel the same rights as other countries because.....

....of what? It's definitely not apartheid in your view so it must be _________?

Bigotry?
Anti-Semitism?
Israel drew the shortest straw?
Israel really doesn't want to be on the UNSC or UNHRC?

Do you not know why? Don't care?

[Violet_Crumble]

154. So yr all sorted out now that the term apartheid doesn't apply to the UN?

I'm not really convinced you are. Instead of bouncing off again and firing off a bunch of 'questions' designed to bolster yr bizarre belief that Israel is a victim of apartheid, try explaining to me what you didn't understand of my explanation of apartheid and why it doesn't apply how you'd love it to.

btw, 7 rapid fire 'questions' in a post of less than 50 words. That must be an all-time record!

[King_David]

100. Rubbish

The only way the term Apartheid is used in this context by certain people is as a term of delegitimization of the Jewish State.

End of storey .

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

101. My, oh my how you keep on beating that drum KingD!

Perhaps someday somebody will believe you besides the home team.

End of story.

[King_David]

107. Just content that your views on "Apartheid" and The Jewish State

Are considered extreme ,bigoted and marginal in the USA...Read up on President Carter's latest writings and views.

In the USA those describing Israel as an apartheid state are marginalized and viewed as extremists ... Ask any Democratic Party rep,Senator or our president .

Extremist view ... Within the USA ...

And that is ALL that counts in the real world.

[azurnoir]

108. I can not Thank you enough that comment

so let's take a look here

Just content that your views on "Apartheid" and The Jewish State

Are considered extreme ,bigoted and marginal in the USA...Read up on President Carter's latest writings and views.

In the USA those describing Israel as an apartheid state are marginalized and viewed as extremists ... Ask any Democratic Party rep,Senator or our president .

Extremist view ... Within the USA ...

And that is ALL that counts in the real world.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1134&pid=32860

first we start with the usual conflation of Israel and Jews as in Jewish State except that 25% of Israel's population is non-Jewish and that is within the Green Line, then we go on to the claim that apartheid is aimed at Israel proper within the Green Line when in fact the term is used in relation to Israel's military occupation of the West Bank but either you wish to blur that or consider the West Bank/Palestine to actually be part of Israel now for the kicker because US politicians for purely political reasons do not use the term apartheid it simply doesn't count, is marginalized, in the 'real world' as you put in your, got news the same was once true for those who pioneered desegregation in the "real world" "all that counts" US but times changed as all things do, as they are right now. Resistance to change, then as now is expected but whether or not you realize it your comment shows the sheer brute political force type of language control that is being applied to the I/P situation.

[King_David]

109. Israel is the state of Bnai Israel

With a 25% non Jewish population living within The one and only Jewish State ..

[azurnoir]

110. yes we've gone over that one before

but do inform us just what are Bnai Israel's or more properly Israel's as your term could be seen as an ethnic claim to Israel, but what are it's physical borders?

[King_David]

111. Needs negotiating

But my view is 67 borders plus Jerusalem east and west Definatly the old city male adumim and Ariel with compensatory land swaps ala Geneva Accord ... And that's the minimum .

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

116. Wouldn't that make it the 75% Jewish state?

BTW: I just call it Israel like most of the adults in the room.

"Jewish state" sounds like you are trying to hard to make something it is not.

'Jewish homeland' as a term has a more benevolent ring to it whereas 'Jewish State' sounds like fascism cannot be far behind.

What happens if this 'Jewish homeland' becomes 50-50 someday? What then? Deportations? More secret population control through Depo Provera?

[King_David]

125. It is what it is

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

126. Perhaps the questions were too tough for you?

Better if you stick with the lulz.

[King_David]

129. It was an adequate answer for "the question " nt

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

131. What a lousy answer lacking substance.

Just go back to the lulz.

[King_David]

134. We don't take orders. nt

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

139. What's wrong, KingD?

I wasn't addressing a 'we', but I was addressing you.

Was that question really too hard for you?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

115. Would you rather we call it the 'Torture state?'

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=568699


How about the 'Shoot Palestinians in the back state?'

http://www.btselem.org/firearm/20130221_killing_of_samir_awad_budrus


How about the bullpooper state?

"In the USA those describing Israel as an apartheid state are marginalized..."


The USA is not the world, and the world...the Real World is tired of Team Apology.

[King_David]

121. The USA" is not the world "

Ha ha ...

Ok then.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

122. You're showing your 'tell' again.

[King_David]

124. Ha ha ha

[Violet_Crumble]

104. Not rubbish. Its misused in post #57

When Shira said: 'You believe it's okay for the UN to practice apartheid vs. Israel (keeping it excluded from a lot of UN bodies) due to Israel not having defined borders?'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=32721

[King_David]

106. LOL I got lost in this conversation thread nt

[leveymg]

173. Shira's point is confusing. First, Tibetans aren't Chinese, as they will be first to tell you.

Second, the Tibetan anti-occupation movement is actively supported in the west, including (clandestinely) by western governments, a level of support the Palestinians could only dream of. That also flies in the face of the point that Shira is trying to make. Thirdly, the Buddhist monks demonstrate that suicide isn't just a political tool of Palestinians and Muslims, and it undermines the argument made by the Israelis that their opponents are uniquely "irrational."

This post might require a little more than just a bit of polishing to make it fit together.

[shira]

188. Right on point 1. Not so much on points 2 and 3. n/t

[shira]

15. Nope. Tibet is far worse. Hans transferring in, over 1 million killed, monks in exile, tortured...

...monastaries trashed and destroyed. The end of a 1400 year old culture and national home. All done by China in a very blatant attempt at cultural annhilation.

[cali]

164. I rarely agree with Shira, but please, please, please

Tibet does not get very much attention is the MSM. And I'm a member of a Tibetan Buddhist Sangha. Granted, this is a crude measure but just google the news section: there are 382 citations for the search 'Tibet Occupation'. The search 'Palestine Occupation', brings up 3,710; almost exactly 10x more news references to Palestine occupation than to Tibet occupation.

Yes, Tibet is pretty much beneath the radar and most people who are active in the issue, spend time trying to change that.

Having said that, I think that at least part of the reason that Tibet is not nearly as high profile as Palestine, is that there hasn't been the western involvement in Tibet that there has been with Israel/Palestine.

"For over one thousand years, the Tibetan people maintained a sovereign national identity distinct from the national identity of China. In 1950, the People’s Republic of China invaded Tibet and embarked on a policy of occupation and oppression that seriously threatens the continued survival of the unique cultural and religious identity of the Tibetan people. We are extremely concerned about the human rights abuses in Tibet. Tragically, a world that condemns colonialism has largely ignored China’s occupation of Tibet."

http://www.c100tibet.org/Statement.html

Tibet's burning issue ignored by the world

http://www.asianpacificpost.com/article/4979-tibets-burning-issue-ignored-world.html

And it's not just the MSM, it's governments and the U.N.

[shira]

184. Agreed. There's no comparison b/w media attention on Tibet vs. Palestine. n/t

[azurnoir]

185. and why do you think that is shira please explain in detail

exactly why the M$M does not pay as much attention to China/Tibet as it does to Israel/Palestine

[shira]

3. 1. You think 100 Palestinian igniting themselves would garner more International attention?

2. Where are all the blaring headlines of China being bad, merciless, etc.?

3. Where is the UN and human rights community out in full force like they would be for I/P?

4. Where are the flotillas and the global left in making Tibet just as important as I/P?

5. Finally, Tibetan self-immolation is getting nowhere near the International attention of I/P....

http://www.economist.com/blogs/analects/2012/12/self-immolation-tibet

However, the protests have failed in both their presumed aims: to change Chinese policy in Tibet; and to raise that policy to the status of a big international issue. China has responded to the protests by sealing off much of Tibet to outside visitors and by tightening security there. In response to the latest deaths, the authorities reportedly placed Kirti and nearby villages under blockade.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-02-19/delhi/37178884_1_free-tibet-india-gu-chu-sum-tibetan-activists

The activists have demanded a coordinated international response by world leaders to act upon China's "repressive measures" in the affected regions and across Tibet, and to institute multi-lateral mechanisms to advocate for the rights of Tibetan people.

They have also demanded that the Chinese government should reassess their "draconian policies, which have lead to the immolations and protests in Tibet, and engage with respected community and religious leaders in Tibet in an effort to improve the lives of ordinary Tibetans."

"We demand that UN representatives and media groups should be allowed to travel freely in Tibet to be able to determine the impact of Chinese policies in Tibet and the level of individual freedom," they said.

http://www.neontommy.com/news/2013/02/tibetan-self-immolation-will-continue-without-external-intervention

Non-violent protests against Chinese rule in Tibet have persisted in Tibet, Nepal, India and countries around the world, however, a lack of foreign government or civil society intervention has driven Tibetans living both in the province and in exile to resort to more self-destructive measures.

The act of self-immolation has become the signature tactic in recent years for Tibetans to voice their frustrations with Chinese rule. However, after over one hundred self-immolations resulting in at least 82 deaths, very little has changed. The Chinese authorities continue to severely constrain the Tibetan community and crack down on anything they perceive as dissent.

There is a high probability that these self-immolations—a desperate and haunting moral cry against Chinese oppression—will continue. The plight of Tibetans remains largely ignored by the international community, as China promotes to foreign countries the development it has brought to the Tibetan plateau, making them hesitant to intervene in support of Tibet's independence.

[oberliner]

5. Do a search on DU

That should be instructive.

[Scootaloo]

7. Surprisingly, it was!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014295484 - Rights group: 4 Tibetans self-immolate in one day
I don't see you or Shira posting there. I see Azurnoir, though.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014277178 - Third Self Immolation in Tibet in four days
Again, no Shira or Oberliner.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/www.fas.usda.gov/en.wikipedia.org/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x5078328 - First immolation attempt' in China's Tibet (old DU)
Shira and Oberliner are again absent.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021643636 - Fifth Tibetan in a week dies from self-immolation
Oberliner? Shira? Who?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101795327 - Joshua Eaton Discusses The Epidemic Of Self Immolation In Tibet (video)
Still not seeing you or Shira.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2415078 - Tibet 'sees first monk self-immolation protest' (old DU)
You and Shira must have been absent that day.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10169595 - Self-immolation as protect tactic rises in Tibet, Middle East
Again, Shira and Oberliner are no-shows.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101610026 - Lobsang Sangay Discusses Self-Immolation Of Tibetan Buddhist Monks
Next you're going to tell me that Ellisonz is really you in a funny hat!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021707289 - Reports say Tibetan artist sets himself on fire in latest self-immolation protest
Shira and Oberliner, still curiously absent!

http://election.democraticunderground.com/1002336951 - NPR: Protests, Self-Immolation Signs Of A Desperate Tibet
Look! There you aren't, again!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101456279 - 'Hundreds gather' in China after self-immolation
Oberliner and Shira are out back, sniffing each others' toes...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/121835674 - Dalai Lama should condemn Tibetan self-immolations [CNN]
You two are still no-shows.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002308757 - Glimpses of a Tibetan/Chinese Town Under Lockdown
Hello? Shira? Oberliner?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3759923 - Tibetan monk sets himself on fire - activist group (old DU)
Maybe you were taking a break in 2009?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x5037732 - Another Tibetan monk set himself alight in China (old DU)
Shira and Oberliner are still not evident!

And yet, here in this thread - the only DU thread discussing Tibet either of you have ever posted on, there's an attempt to chide others for ever discussing other subjects. As if either of you have a lot of room to be so high and mighty?

And really, it's not even a thread about those immolations we find ourselves on. it's a thread where a dumb fucking line of argument - "if it were something else imagine how the evil media would respond!" - is exploiting these self-immolations to attack and belittle situations the fascists at algemeiner don't care for.

Also there's a bit of schizophrenia. Is China the evil oppressor state? Or something that should be embraced and celebrated?
http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/08/14/chinese-warships-dock-in-israel-celebrating-20-years-of-diplomacy-video/

Aglemeiner's writers and, one imagines, its readers don't really give a fuck about Tibet. Just as they do not really give a fuck about the Palestinian refugees. These people are props to them, and their only value is how far they can be used to cover for Israel and attempt to attack its critics.

And the sad thing is, this is really the best these goofballs have, the tired-ass comparative argument. Heard it all the time when I was arguing with other right-wing fucksticks; "IF THIS HAD BEEN DONE BY A LIBERAL YOU WOULD NEVER HEAR ABOUT IT!"

[shira]

12. What nonsense. All you're doing is deflecting....

The point is that WRT Tibet, there is nowhere near the same concern, outrage, and sympathy from the uber-sensitive so-called pro-Palestinian contingent. No flotillas to Tibet, no BDS campaign vs. China, no rallies to end the Chinese occupation and their attempt to annhilate Tibetan culture, barely any UN activity on the situation, etc. Israel makes a headline, your blood boils and your face contorts. China does something 100x worse WRT Tibet and the reaction is nowhere near the same.

THAT is the point.

If you wish to engage in a real discussion, focus on that before trying to derail and turn the thread around. I realize that's about all you've got, but damn, it seems to be your default position....that rather than defend/justify or acknowledge your view, just turn it around and attack the critic.

[Scootaloo]

13. No flotillas to Tibet?

Here, allow me to show you something.

This is the Gaza strip:


This is Tibet:


Once again, Gaza:


Tibet:


Merriam-Webster defines "flotilla" as...

a fleet of ships or boats; especially : a navy organizational unit consisting of two or more squadrons of small warships

Now, if someone managed to get a flotilla into Tibet, I would indeed be duly impressed. However I'm not sure that the logistics of such a venture would bear out.

[shira]

14. No Flytillas either. Got an excuse for that one? n/t

[Scootaloo]

21. This is your first foray into anything Tibet-related, isn't it?

Okay. So again, look at those images I showed you. See where Tibet is? It spans the majority of a geographical feature known (aptly enough) as the Tibetan plateau. This plateau was formed when the Indian continent crammed itself against the Eurasian plate a few million years ago. To say that it's high altitude would be an understatement. Denver is high-altitude, but Lhasa is beyond even that.

High altitude means thin air. Thin air makes it hard to fly; planes have trouble maintaining lift in thin atmosphere. I'm not certain on all the technical aspects there, but I know at least that much.

Next you have another geographical problem. You're going to be entering chinese airspace illegally do do this "flytilla." So you're naturally going to want to spend as little time in China as possible. So a flight entry from the north, west, or especially east just is not going to happen; you're coming from the south. Now the southern edge of Tibet has this mountain range, known as the Himalayas. Maybe you've heard of them.

You're not going to get over the Himalayas with a "flytilla."

Tibet is one of the world's most geographically isolated populated places, if not the most isolated place. There's a reason that that Tibet managed to maintain a medieval theocratic monarchy into the middle of the 20th century.

[shira]

33. Boy, you're reaching. This is too easy. Tibet has airports, doesn't it?

That was a rhetorical question. Of course they do!

Just admit it. The reason there is no FreeGaza contingent doing Tibet is because they simply do not care. It's the same reason there's no BDS campaign. Same reason the UN is virtually silent in comparison to what it does vs. Israel.

You're in denial, unwilling to acknowledge that many of your heroes are as sensitive to the situation as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is. Hey, maybe next post you'll try convincing me Ahmadinejad is a genuine humanist and he really cares....

[Scootaloo]

34. That's your counter-argument?

"Tibet has an airport"? Yes, it does. I never said it didn't. I simply said that flying at the altitudes required is difficult and expensive. Tibet's "international" airport, Lhasa Gonggar, handles one - that's one, numeral 1 - domestic flight a day, and has a single weekly flight to Kathmandu. That's the region's largest airport, and it handles eight flights a week. I promise you Shira, i'm not deceiving you when I tell you Tibet is remote. Maybe it's not quite on par with the New Guinea highlands or the South Pole, but... Yeah, the easiest and most reliable way to get there is to drive west, from some other part of china.

Maybe you should bitch about the lack of a "trucktilla" or something. or a Sherpatilla, fuck, I don't know.

I suggest - again that you do a search for "Free Tibet." Follow the links to other links and on down the cascade. if you think there is no free Tibet movement, then you are either profoundly ignorant or the worst of liars.

And what the fuck does Ahmadinejad have to do with anything? That's just weird.

[Violet_Crumble]

37. Admit it. Shira has cleverly destroyed you with her amazing logical rebuttal...

And she didn't even have to deliver the killer blow, which is: "Why don't they just land at Lukla and walk from there!"

I'm thinking a Sherpatilla is a promising idea. But I've got an even better idea that I bet no-one's ever thought of before. Let's organise a series of concerts around the world, call it the Tibetan Freedom Concert, and invite folk like the Foo Fighters, Pavement, Blur, Smashing Pumpkins, 2/3 of Pearl Jam, Radiohead, U2, and a shitload of other artists! Yeah, I bet no-one's every thought of that, because Shira's totally correct and there's no free Tibet movement!

Now let's get back to counting random mentions of Ahmadinejad. There's nearly enough to turn it into a reasonable drinking game...

[Scootaloo]

39. I can't be the only one who's been tempted to change coats...

And argue a pro-China angle using all the Zionist talking points. It'd be like opposites day!

I wonder where Shira thinks all this information comes from, if there are no Tibet advocacy groups. For example, the "One million killed" number? Committee to Support Tibet (well, they say 1,200,000.)

I also wonder where she got the idea that Tibet has sea access. Maybe she thinks Waterworld was a documentary?

And jesus, Lukhla is scary! And it's 2,500 feet lower than Lhasa Gonggar.

[Violet_Crumble]

76. I did consider it last night, but any post doing that would get hidden swiftly...

It's that double standard thing some of our friends in this group like to go on and on about

[King_David]

43. "most reliable way to get there is to drive west, from some other part of china. "

So Tibet is some other "part of China"?

[Violet_Crumble]

73. China occupies Tibet and it's seen as being part of China. Why? n/t

[shira]

67. The argument isn't just about Tibet having an airport. Left/Right wing activists....

....could be advocating for Tibet just as much as they do for I/P, but they do not. You guys would be going ape-shit about 100 Palestinians lighting themselves up demanding their rights. The Mavi Marmara incident got at least 100x the attention (media, UN, human rights agencies) than this latest from Tibet.

Who are you kidding?

=======

1. Over 1 million Tibetans killed compared to about 20,000 Palestinians.

2. Hans transferred into Tibet, outnumbering Tibetans in an attempt to annhilate the culture.

3. China destroying religious freedom.

=======

And you guys (both Left and Right, from Greta Berlin and Ali Abunimah & Mondoweiss to David Duke) are comparing Israelis to Nazis? Try googling Tibet/China and Nazis and see if you can find any results. And you guys are proud of your advocacy? Israel = Nazis. Are you f-cking kidding me? I mean, seriously?

[Violet_Crumble]

75. But you were demanding flotillas and flytillas head there!

I'd have had to be sailing through this thread with my eyes screwed shut not to have noticed that you, the person who's dashing around condemning people for supposedly not advocating for Tibet, has not only shown no interest in Tibet up till now, but didn't even crack open a map before posting to learn where Tibet was or do any of the most basic research. The person who wrote the article and referred to the Tibetans as Chinese is using Tibet as a handy weapon to hammer people who dare to criticise Israel for it's occupation over the head with, which is a pretty cynical thing to do. Why can't they just be honest and admit that they just don't want anyone criticising Israel for the occupation. I'd have more respect for them if they were honest...

Another thing - What the hell is this? 'And you guys are proud of your advocacy? Israel = Nazis. Are you f-cking kidding me? I mean, seriously?'

What the hell does that mean? Or is this just random stuff that's not meant to mean anything? Or do you honestly believe yr posting amongst a large number of DUers who believe Israel = Nazis?

[delrem]

83. Hey! Give shira a break!

shira can't help that she has nazis embedded in her brain. She just recently posted the "Hamas's "Hitler Youth" style movement..." thread, which got 127 replies so far, and she posted some great pics from a Love Site showing concern for Palestinian children, or simulations thereof, in full regalia, so naturally she'd hold it as an axiom that *the other side is doing it too!*.

I liked that Nepal Lukla airport vid you posted in another thread. The climber Hillary seems like a very good man, and the people of Nepal are beautiful. It made my evening. To say nothing of my laughter at the accompanying sub-thread. "No flotillas to Tibet?"

[Violet_Crumble]

85. If I had a dollar for every bit of Godwinising I've seen, I'd be a multimillionaire...

I think the hope is that if Palestinians are linked with Nazis at least twice in a 12 hr period, then people reading will stop noticing that the sites being linked to going on about child sacrifice etc aren't raving anti-Arab hatemongers and something will click and they'll go: 'Of course! Thank goodness we've got Shira here to show us the TrUtH! I don't know why it took me so long to understand that every attempt possible to link Palestinians and Nazis is a highly noble endevour that I agree with!'


I'm glad you liked the clip about Lukla. I watched the entire show when it was on the History Channel coz I'm terrified of taking off, flying, and landing. I think as dangerous as some of the other airports were, they had nothing on Lukla.

OMG. I don't laugh at much, but that sub-thread was hilarious! If I'd been the one who'd made such a massive blunder in a thread, I sure wouldn't have returned and kept on going!

[shira]

90. Flotillas, Flytillas, BDS, UN resolutions... Something, anything.

The same groups and organizations attacking Israel 24/7/365 are doing what exactly WRT Tibet?

Not a flipping thing, that's what.

As to nazi comparisons, you'll note the comparison is never made WRT China/Tibet even though what China has done is probably 100x worse. Why do you think that is?

[Violet_Crumble]

92. Like others here, I'm thinking yr sudden interest in Tibet is just a bit fake...

Though I am very impressed that even after the egg on face moment of letting slip that you didn't even know that Tibet was landlocked you've returned to trot out exactly the same posts as you did before. It's like watching my dog try to get out the door before I've opened it every morning. She keeps on failing abysmally, but she doesn't alter her routine one iota when she obsessively repeats the same bound for failure escape attempt every morning. I don't laugh at my dog though. That'd be cruel...

Huh? I asked you what you meant by this comment you made: 'Another thing - What the hell is this? 'And you guys are proud of your advocacy? Israel = Nazis. Are you f-cking kidding me? I mean, seriously?' What you came back with has fuck all to do with that. Listen up. Claiming that any regular in this group does the Israel = Nazis thing would be a totally dishonest claim to make, which is why I asked you to clarify what the hell yr talking about there.

[shira]

94. The point is that zealoted groups obsessed about Israel (FreeGaza, BDS, ISM, UNHRC, CodePink)

....are silent on Tibet. Those same groups that use the nazi comparison with Israel never do so with China.

The question is why.

If you feel like deflecting rather than discuss the above, that's your choice.

[Violet_Crumble]

96. I'm not understanding why you said 'you guys' then...

It seems a very confused and muddled way to say something, because the word 'you' means it's being aimed at the person yr replying to.

I know others have pointed this out to you, but yr on autopilot or something when it comes to reacting to posts in this thread, but a few cliches need to be trotted out here. One is flogging a dead horse, and the other is people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Anyway, here goes

WHY ARE ZEALOTED GROUPS OBSESSED ABOUT ISRAEL (STAND WITH US, PMW, HONEST REPORTING) SILENT ON TIBET?

WHY?

WHYYYYYY?

[shira]

98. I didn't say "you guys" in the post you're responding to. That's just another deflection....

The whole point about FreeGaza, BDS, CodePink, the ISM, etc... is that they proudly advertise themselves as wonderful humanitarians who are very sensitive to human rights all around the world.

Yet they're silent on Tibet.

They're liars and hypocrites with double-standards.

Your attempt to bring in pro-Israel groups defending against anti-semitic bigotry is yet another deflection.

[Violet_Crumble]

103. No, you said it two posts before, and I started asking what the hell you meant by it...

Seeing you 'forget' so quickly, here's the link if yr not capable of scrolling back only a few posts and following the subthread.

'And you guys are proud of your advocacy? Israel = Nazis. Are you f-cking kidding me? I mean, seriously?'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=32732

Double standards is another thing you clearly have no clue as to what it is, because when those zealoted pro-Israel advocacy groups are totally silent on Tibet, yet you shriek in outrage only when it's pro-Palestinian groups or anyone who doesn't blindly support everything Israel does who supposedly 'ignore' Tibet. Even though as has been shown well and truly in this thread, you've never been interested in Tibet right up till you thought you could use it as a tool to hammer people who support the Palestinian cause over the head with, and thought it was on some coast somewhere.

[shira]

113. The point about Israel = Nazis is that it's used an awful lot WRT Israel....

Never WRT China.

What does that tell you? Not that I expect a straight answer....

When I asked if you guys were proud of your advocacy, it was WRT to aligning yourselves with those using the Israel/Nazi analogy. There's something odious about being involved with a movement that does that. Think about it this way: China has killed over 1.2 million and is attempting cultural annihilation in its conflict vs. Tibet. If a Nazi comparison must be used for either nation, then China should be described that way & not Israel. Yet China is never described that way. It's stinky, isn't it?

I'll hold my breath waiting for a real discussion of that...

As to HonestReporting, CAMERA, etc... they are media watchdogs (WRT reporting on Israel) and that's all they claim to be. They don't claim to be human rights advocates like FreeGaza, the ISM, CodePink, and BDS. You should really stop trying to bring up such a simple-minded, false comparison.

So why are alleged human rights groups (some who you support) so silent WRT Tibet? Or WRT refugees in Syria or Lebanon? Child militants in Gaza? Why is that? And shall I expect an actual answer to that within the next decade?

[Violet_Crumble]

145. How would you know no-one has ever Godwinised when it comes to China?

Given that you didn't even know where Tibet was, nor that there's been a lot of attention paid to Tibet over the years, somehow I suspect you just made that up. And guess what the third result was when I just searched for Tibet China Nazis?

'China's #Nazi-Style policies are responsible for Tibet crises, See #atrocities http://bit.ly/aqT27B @DalaiLama is part of Tibetan solution'

https://twitter.com/BhoRangzen/status/302377923548172290

So, what does that tell me? That yr so fixated on Israel to the exclusion of all else that you don't know the first thing about things like Tibet and China...


When I asked if you guys were proud of your advocacy, it was WRT to aligning yourselves with those using the Israel/Nazi analogy

Okay, another word you don't understand the meaning of is advocacy. Putting aside for a moment that saying 'you guys' to someone means yr saying it to include the person yr talking to, the definition of advocacy is support of a cause. The cause I and many others here support is that of the Palestinian people to live in their own viable and independent state free of occupation by Israel. Not one regular in this group advocates for a cause called Israel = Nazis. So hopefully next time you'll pause before firing off 'you guys' before a nasty and untrue accusation.....

As to HonestReporting, CAMERA, etc... they are media watchdogs (WRT reporting on Israel) and that's all they claim to be.

Really? So maybe you can point to human rights groups that are pro-Israeli? Do they exist? If on the off chance one does, where is all their protest over Tibet? Also, while you don't know much at all about organisations that have been supporting Tibet, yr line of 'logic' leads to those organisations being labelled as hypocrites with double standards because they're not doing anything WRT Tibet. Bunch of zealots!!!

http://www.freetibet.org/search/node/palestine

[shira]

148. There are more Dalai Lama = Nazi comparisons in google....

...than China to Nazi comparisons. I never claimed no one has ever Godwinized WRT China, only that it generally doesn't happen. WRT Israel, there are literally millions of hits. WRT China, very few going back years.

Why do you think that is?

And before you go off once again asking for groups that are pro-Israel acting on Tibet, why not first admit that groups like FreeGaza, BDS, and CodePink are 1-trick ponies? Perhaps give a reason for it other than that they're obsessed zealoted anti-Israel firsters.

[Violet_Crumble]

152. Shira: I never claimed no one has ever Godwinized WRT China, only that it generally doesn't happen.'

I see....

Shira: 'The point about Israel = Nazis is that it's used an awful lot WRT Israel....Never WRT China.'

From the same post:

'If a Nazi comparison must be used for either nation, then China should be described that way & not Israel. Yet China is never described that way.'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=32884

But wait! There's more of this 'I never claimed that no one has ever Godwinized WRT China, only that it generally doesn't happen.' here:

'As to nazi comparisons, you'll note the comparison is never made WRT China/Tibet even though what China has done is probably 100x worse.'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=32817

I dunno. I'm not the one bouncing round this thread yelling away about the hypocrisy and double standards of organisations that focus on one conflict area in particular. Yr the one doing that. All I did was point out that the 'logic' behind that leads to groups who support Tibet like the one I linked to having the same hypocrisy and double standards. Because if you want to turn a blind eye to them doing it, it reeks of hypocrisy and double standards to be selectively doing it.

[shira]

153. The Godwinizing is so rare WRT China, it's close to never....

As opposed to Israel where it's easy to find millions of hits.

So why is that?

[Violet_Crumble]

155. But you said repeatedly it NEVER happened.

Why do you expect anyone to believe anything you have to say about China and Tibet when there's been so many massive blunders like that one in this thread?

[shira]

157. The China = Nazi comparison is generally not made. It's rare.....

Whereas there are millions of hits in google for Israel = Nazi, there are more hits comparing the Dalai Lama to the Nazis when googling China, Nazi, Tibet.

Why do you think that is?

[Violet_Crumble]

158. But you said it was NEVER made, Shira. Not once, but several times...

You were really quite insistent on it. What happened? I'm a bit shocked that the claims you've been making when it comes to Tibet aren't really that credible or knowledgable at all.

[shira]

159. I was so, so wrong. I should've known better. Perhaps you can find....

...a way to forgive me for my error and we can continue on about the nazi comparison.

What do you say?

[Violet_Crumble]

160. No need to get sarcastic, Shira....

I'm not sure I can take anything you say about Tibet and China at face value anymore after that. I think I might go find someone who knows what they're talking about when it comes to that particular occupation. It involves venturing into GD and LBN. Are you ready to come with me on a journey of Tibet discovery?

[shira]

161. I didn't think you'd answer the question. All you have are deflections.

Why not just admit you were never seriously considering ever answering the question?

Or anything seriously related to the OP?

[Violet_Crumble]

162. Shira, another word yr misuing is 'deflection'...

When someone replies to what you've posted and discusses what you've said, then that's not a deflection. Deflection is to ignore what gets said and to reply with something completely unrelated. I can show you examples of where you've successfully used that debate tactic if yr confused...

[shira]

163. It means a change in direction. Pretty much your modus operandi here.

I should have written that China is almost never compared to the Nazis.

I should have written that nothing like a flotilla, flotilla, trucktilla, etc... has been attempted by the anti-Israel contingent.

======

Rather than just write, "Shira I know what you mean, but...." and then respectfully answer, you guys deflect.

It's pretty much all you do here when you're faced with uncomfortable questions.

======

What does it tell you when you and your friends here have so much trouble responding to simple questions?

[Violet_Crumble]

165. Nah, I've been sticking real close to talking about the claim you made...

That's not deflection. I dunno, maybe you should have written something that made sense and doesn't come across as hinting heavily that you have little interest or knowledge of China's occupation of Tibet. Seriously, if I wrote "Shira, I know what you mean, but...." I'd be such a fucking liar. Most people I encounter at DU say what they mean, not something different. You've got a long history of making absolutist NEVER! claims that are so easily shown to be wrong if only you'd taken the time to go visit Google before posting...

btw, yr doing that 'you guys' thing again. Y'know the same thing you did when you told another DUer that 'you guys' are into Nazi=Israel advocacy. So, just so make sure I've got it straight. Are you referring to me, or talking vaguely into the air about someone else?

What does it tell you when you and your friends here have so much trouble responding to simple questions?

That's right. I keep on forgetting that those rapid-fire multiple 'questions' you fire off when getting angry are actually thought-provoking gentle questions asked in a genuine desire to engage in constructive and intellectual discussion. So here goes:

Yes, Shira. I forgive you! *hugs*

[shira]

166. So now that you know what I mean, why not answer? I thought you wanted civil....

....discussion here rather than personal attacks, insult, and ridicule.

Waiting...

[Violet_Crumble]

167. Actually, I've got no idea what you mean. You seem to type things you later say mean something else.

Does that mean when I see you making one of yr regular absolutist claims that something NEVER happens, yr actually saying it does, but just not as much as you'd like?

And what makes you think that I'd think anyone who has made repeated nasty and untrue accusations of me holding bigoted views and supporting Hamas is capable of having any sort of civil discussion? It'd be a lovely surprise, but it's not something I'll hold my breath waiting for after all this time...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

141. Psssst. You haven't mentioned hot air balloons. Change the subject again. Mention hot air balloons.

Nazis in hot air balloons!

[oberliner]

143. This is what I mean by silly back-and-forth

Anyway, is it not a fair question worth commenting on?

Do you think the Nazi comparison gets used more frequently with respect to Israel than other countries?

Do you think it has to do with the fact that Israel is the Jewish state?

I've heard people make comments pointing out that there is some kind of irony about the way Israel treats Palestinians in light of the way the Nazis treated the Jews.

This is germane to the OP on which this thread is based.

If you want to seriously engage this question, I'm happy to do so. If you'd rather just make jokes, then knock yourself out.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

144. No, this is just called lulz, Oberiner.

Last edited Mon Feb 25, 2013, 02:19 AM - Edit history (1)

Shira is flopping around like a half-in-the-bag halibut on the floor, and with each gaff, floatillas-flytillas she makes the lulz grow stronger. Please keep it going, by all means. I hope that more DUers get a chance to read up on the exploits of the desperate home team. You don't so yourselves any favors with this vaudevillian song and dace.

Yet you come to the rescue.


And you have the temerity to now want to ask strait up questions as if you have some moral superlative?

I'll show you that I am more of a mench than either you or Shira.

Anyway, is it not a fair question worth commenting on?
No. This entire post plus OP, plus its apologistas, are meant to distract and lead away from the Israel/Palestine debate at nearly all times. For one to be so desperate as to point fingers at other human rights abuses, in order to try the move the heat off of Israel's, is underhand; especially since this is the I/P forum.

What is worse is that scootaloo has show up both you and Shira; showing that neither of you have posted anything on the China/Tibet issue until now. Only as a distraction. Only as a distraction from ever admitting that Israel is guilty of human rights abuses, murder, torture and apartheid. You write that I make jokes when that is all either of you have been doing here?

Do you think the Nazi comparison gets used more frequently with respect to Israel than other countries?
Everybody calls everybody else a Nazi. It's overused as an epithet.

Do you think it has to do with the fact that Israel is the Jewish state?
Israel is Israel. I would call it a Jewish Homeland. You can call it the Jewish State, but since it is really only 75% Jewish shouldn't it be called the 75% Jewish State by you?

Truth in advertising and all?

I asked KingD the same question, and there was no answer back worth reading.

I've heard people make comments pointing out that there is some kind of irony about the way Israel treats Palestinians in light of the way the Nazis treated the Jews.
So what? Israelis are human beings: capable of visiting the same horrors that others have done in the past. What was your point?
Were these comments made at DU? If they were then ask the person that made them.

This is germane to the OP on which this thread is based.
The Op is meant as a distraction so that the discussion moves away from the I/P debate.

If you want to seriously engage this question, I'm happy to do so. If you'd rather just make jokes, then knock yourself out.

You don't seriously engage me, ober. If you want jokes then stick with Shira.

[oberliner]

174. What's a mench?

If the OP is meant as a distraction, why bother to post so many replies in this thread?

Anyway, your responses here are strange and confusing. Do you think I just made up the term Jewish state? Check 972mag. They use the phrase all the time.

In any case, feel free to just click "hide thread" and the distraction goes away.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

176. "This is what I mean by silly back-and-forth"

"In any case, feel free to just click 'hide thread' and the distraction goes away."

You can always take the same prescription, ober.

Seeing how I gave you an answer that your stomach can't handle.


Its such a pity that you play the game that you supposedly can't stand.

[shira]

156. Lulz is all they have. When they know they're wrong, they deflect.

Last edited Mon Feb 25, 2013, 07:27 AM - Edit history (1)

You'll note that not one of them has attempted to seriously discuss the hypocrisy and double-standards of the anti-Israel movement.

Not one.

When your movement is associated with far right lunatics like Pat Buchanan and David Duke, and haters like Greta Berlin and George Galloway, why attempt to defend such a group?

Can't blame them.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

18. No. The point is that you were caught dead to rights.

You conflate the issues of Israel/Palestine and China/Tibet to distract from the former whereas Scoot has just proven you have no interest in the latter.

This is just a dead horse for you to be beaten into a pulp until you look for the next expired equine. The problem with abusing dead horses is that it is an unstable method to define your argument.

This unbridled passion you have for conflating issues to water down the topic of I/P and spur on others may not have the desired effect and leave you looking rather long in the face.

[shira]

24. Where are the Flytilla folks? BDS? The UN special emergency sessions? Endless op-eds....

Difficult for you to acknowledge the hypocrisy of the anti-colonial, anti-imperialist hordes who claim they're for universal human rights, isn't it?

If you don't acknowledge it, there's nothing to discuss, now is there?

Best to remain in denial.

Fail.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

25. I believe that you have become the Flytilla.

Of what I am not sure.

[shira]

32. You're the humanist b/w the 2 of us. Maybe you should be advocating for a Flytilla, BDS....

....and more UN resolutions. That is, if Tibetans in your view are entitled to the same rights Palestinians are.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

142. So you're not a humanist?

So you mentioned that 20,000 Palestinians have been killed. Who killed them? The Chinese?

[shira]

149. You're the one proudly boasting with lulz that you are....

Last edited Mon Feb 25, 2013, 07:03 AM - Edit history (1)

So you think it's hilarious that BDS, FreeGaza, CodePink, and other so-called rights groups are 1-trick ponies who cannot be bothered with Tibet due to their zealoted anti-Israel obsessions?

Notice your friends here won't get into that? They know these organizations are 1-trick ponies too and that's why, like you, they're looking for any out.

But yeah, 20k Palestinians have been killed compared to 1.2 million Tibetans. Your favorite groups and organizations act like it's the other way around. Why do you think that is?

Are you uncomfortable answering these questions seriously?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

175. My question was who killed the 20,000 Palestinians.

Who killed them?

We know that Sharon was an accessory to murder, so who were accessories to murder of the 20,000 Palestinians? Who murdered them outright?

[shira]

177. Israel murdered 20K Palestinians outright? That includes Hamas, 1948 war...?

Murder, you say?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

179. I asked you a question outright. That 20k number was yours.

My question was who killed the 20,000 Palestinians. Who killed them?

We know that Sharon was an accessory to murder, so who were accessories to murder of the 20,000 Palestinians? Who murdered them outright?

[shira]

180. So now 20K weren't murdered? And "we" know Sharon was an accessory to murder?

Who is "we"?

Do you know the definition of accessory, because it seems you do not.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

181. My question was who killed the 20,000 Palestinians? Who killed them?

That 20k number was yours.

My question was who killed the 20,000 Palestinians. Who killed them?

We know that Sharon was an accessory to murder, so who were accessories to murder of the 20,000 Palestinians? Who murdered them outright?

[shira]

182. You think when Israel kills militants/terrorists, it's murder?

Same as murder against innocents?

Really?

And Sharon was never accused of being an accessory. Do you know what an accessory is?

========

The answer to your question is no one murdered 20,000 Palestinians unless you combine the casualties from Black September in Jordan and other Arab massacres.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

183. That 20k number was yours. You own it.

My question was who killed the 20,000 Palestinians? Who killed them?

We know that Sharon was an accessory to murder, so who were accessories to murder of the 20,000 Palestinians? Who murdered them outright?

Now you are writing that these 20k were all terrorists/militants?

When China kills Tibetans do they call them terrorists as well?

The answer to your question is no one murdered 20,000 Palestinians...

Were you not being truthful then?

[Jefferson23]

17. An extraordinary excellent post. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

19. + Infinity

[oberliner]

44. Good stuff

Thanks for taking the time to do that - very instructive.

[Jefferson23]

20. Ronn Torossian

Management of 5W PR Agency
Ronn Torossian, President & CEO

Ronn Torossian, President & CEO at 5WPR Ronn Torossian is the Founder, President and CEO of New York-based 5W Public Relations (5W). He has overseen the rapid growth and expansion of the PR agency to the Inc. 500 list, as well as provided counsel to hundreds of companies, including members of the Fortune 500, Inc. 500 and Forbes 400. His work spans global interests, corporate entities, high-profile individuals, regional business entities, government agencies and academic institutions - both on routine public relations matters and extremely sensitive issues. One of the foremost public relations experts in the U.S., Torossian is known for his resourceful, results-focused orientation, as well as his close working relationships with members of the media, influencers, decision makers, politicians and celebrities. At 5W, Torossian's client experience has included PR programs for Coca-Cola, Microsoft, Anheuser-Busch, Barnes & Noble, Cantor Fitzgerald, IHOP, McDonald's, Evian, EDS, VeriSign, XM Radio, Seagram's, The Loews Regency, Bad Boy Worldwide Entertainment, Marriott Hotels, Vail Resorts, Pamela Anderson, Snoop Dogg, the Government of Israel, and others.

A New York Times feature story on Ronn Torossian referred to him as "The consummate hard-driving, scrappy NY publicist." CBS National News said "Ronn Torossian knows spin," and he was referred to by The New York Post as a "publicity guru"; by Fox News as a "high-powered PR CEO"; by Tyra Banks as a "crisis management guru"; and by CNN as "a leading PR expert." Ronn Torossian’s expert commentary on public relations and reputation management is regularly featured top-tier media. Earlier in his career, Torossian was Vice President/Group Director for one of The InterPublic Group's (IPG) largest PR agencies, where he was responsible for significant client growth and successful client programs, including work for Clinique, Fox News Channel, DHL and Hard Rock Café.

remainder: http://www.5wpr.com/about5wpr/management.cfm

[azurnoir]

28. While there is so much talk about about "shenanigans"

doesn't it strike anyone that an article titled

A Chinese Life Is Worth Less Than a Middle Eastern Life

is actually about Tibetans? Perhaps the algemeiner would be a bit more convincing if they figured out that not all Asians are Chinese

[oberliner]

29. What country is Tibet in?

China, no?

[pangaia]

30. Not of the Tibetans had anything to say about it.

[azurnoir]

31. Tibet is not part of China anymore than West Bank/Palestine is Israel

both are occupied by foreign powers

[Scootaloo]

36. Careful, you'll confuse him.

Right now we're seeing Zionists trying to backpedal on every position they've ever had; they have to condemn China for the same stuff they hold Israel has an unquestionable right to do. Part and parcel with this they have to try to take on the same positions as the very leftists they loathe and despise with every quivering hateful fiber of their being.

It's funny!

[King_David]

45. Oh those "Zionists"

I still find it strange that there could be such open anti Zionist displays on a message board such as DU.

It would be considered out and out bigotry if it were posted on any USA Democratic Party representative's official web pages.

But do continue.

[Scootaloo]

46. Find me an argument in support of China's occupation of Tibet that isn't mirrored by Zionists

Really, you're not going to find any. The arguments in favor of illegal occupation are the same for both Israel and China. The arguments for the freedom of Tibet are likewise generally mirrors of the arguments for Palestine. In fact, people who call for a free Tibet are generally the same sort of people who call for a free Palestine; You know, those filthy evil leftists you guys hate so much.

The only difference is, China doesn't have a huge network of propaganda outlets and lobby groups in the west carrying water for it - there is no Chinese algemeir, as far as I'm aware. Nor do we have any of the Useful Idiots running around screeching to the high heavens about the utter sanctity of China and the inherent sinophobia of anyone and everyone who supports Tibet, questions or criticizes China, or the like, as we clearly have for Israel.

This lack of screaming idiots filling airwaves and bandwidth with heaping doses of China's justifications for what it does in Tibet might be part of the reason the debate, as it were, isn't actually a debate - Pretty much everyone you'll run into on this board and others like it agrees, China acts like a bag of dicks towards Tibet, discussion over.

Suggest that Israel acts like a bag of dicks towards Palestine however, and here come the volunteer propagandists who really want to fight over it. Which is honestly a lot like an armadillo trying to fight an onrushing Buick, but hey - you have heart!


It's kind of odd, really. If China put half the effort into propagandizing their position on Tibet that they do in hacking Warcraft accounts, I'm pretty sure you'd be happily marching along to "March of the Volunteers" yourself. Maybe they just figure they have a rock-solid position and don't need to outsource to a bunch of inept internet fanboys?

And thanks for your invitation to continue; I had no plan to stop. All sorts of stuff gets posted on Du you can't post on the website of a US Democratic Rep. For instance, pretty much every video ever posted on DU. Real Time? Angry Athiest? Good lord! Do you think an article from algemeir would last long in the comments section of say, Al Franken's webpage? Maybe you should try - oh, but should you use ultra-liberal John Bolton, Proud Progressive Alan Dershowitz, or that vaunted supporter of diversity and tolerance Daniel Pipes? Decisions decisions!

[shira]

63. Tell me which is worse to you? China or Israel's occupation? And why. n/t

[King_David]

72. I'm pretty sure Anti Zionist is an absolute

And quote rightly considered bigotry by every US Democratic Party rep , Senator and President .

[Violet_Crumble]

74. Huh? Aren't the pro-Israeli ones in this thread Zionists?

Aren't we supposed to call them Zionists if that's what they self-identify as? It's bigoted to refer to them how they refer to themselves?

That's just bizarre...

Hang on. Maybe this one wasn't a Zionist?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=32588

btw, remember a while back you asked me to point out instances of bigotry against Arabs and Muslims to you? That's one...

[King_David]

78. Thats A hidden post

Some people have no shame in being viciously antiZionist bigots.
Those posts are not hidden.
I heard that Democratic Party reps would never link up to DU on their websites due to this reason .
Imagine the party that this forum rightly and deservedly supports is unable to link us Democratic Party supporters' website.

[Violet_Crumble]

79. Did you read that hidden post?

I don't think the person who wrote that disgustingly bigoted and hateful post about Palestinians is an anti-zionist. Which is why I asked you if they were a Zionist. Because if you identify yourself as a Zionist, it's not bigoted for other people to refer to you as a Zionist.

[King_David]

80. I was talking about another posters many antiZionist

Posts .. Not specifically the one post in particular .

For an example thread search for the term:

"Unicorn "

[Violet_Crumble]

81. I think some here just like flinging round accusations of anti-Zionism..

Didn't I spot you only a few weeks back insisting that anyone who's antizionist is a bigot? Because Scoot isn't a bigot...

Also, if yr struggling to see the example of bigotry I gave you a link to, there's a little 'show' button on the hidden post you can click to see it. After all, you did tell me a while back that if I pointed you to it when it happened, you'd speak out against that bigotry. Remember?

[King_David]

82. Search for the term " unicorn"

Read the thread to find out why Democratic Party reps don't link up to DU.

( I never called out any poster in particular )

[Violet_Crumble]

84. I read that thread. Yr talking about Scoot so there's no need to be coy...

I don't understand why you asked me to provide you with examples of bigotry against Arabs and Muslims, but when I just did yr ignoring it. I remember you told me that you would speak out against bigotry against Arabs and Muslims if I gave you links, but all I'm seeing here is silence...

[King_David]

99. That post was deservedly hidden by a Jury

and I would of voted the same way .

Can't tell if the poster is a Zionist from one simple post.

The bigoted antiZionist posts should be hidden too in fact they have no place on a progressive website that supports the ideals of the Democratic Party .

[Scootaloo]

120. All dissenting voices must be silenced, Dave?

Now, are you talking a wholesale purge, ala Madeline Albright and her support for the carnage and deaths among the Iraqis, or are you more selective like Chuck Schumer, who just advocates strangling Palestinians?

You do realize that when it comes to the middle east, the Democrats and the Republicans actually are identical, and are dominated by racism, violence, and intent to suppress the populations? "Progressivism" is for at home (...sometimes) while the rest of the world still gets the infliction of the neocon agenda, espoused by the writers on the blogsite Shira opened this thread with.

Alan Dershowitz is your idea of a progressive icon, perhaps?

[King_David]

123. When it comes to Anti Zionist

There's far more evidence of it on the extreme right , such as David Duke .

Ill stick with the Democratic Party thank you.

[Scootaloo]

127. Are you even trying to make a point?

Or just attempting to smokebomb?

[King_David]

128. As much as your "point" was nt

[Scootaloo]

130. My point is, you want dissenting voices silenced so only your position can be heard

Your response was "DAVID DUKE OMG!" or something similarly intellectual.

I'm puzzled, as your response wasn't really a response.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

132. I'm getting the same.

There's not a lot under the crown...so to speak.

[King_David]

133. Your ridiculois point was Democratic Party

And Republican Party views on Israel were similar.
Mine was that extremist views on Zionism and Israel are identical .

[Scootaloo]

135. So you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. Gotcha.

Sorry Dave, the Democratic and Republican parties have the same position with regards to Israel. This is part of a greater fact, that US foreign policy has not seen any great changes since the Truman administration regardless of who's "in charge."

And this was your point;

The bigoted antiZionist posts should be hidden too in fact they have no place on a progressive website that supports the ideals of the Democratic Party .

You want anti-zionists silenced. You don't present a case argument for this, other than some silly attempt at party loyalism. You know how I maintain that liberalism and zionism run counter to one another? I say the same thing about progressivism and authoritarianism.

[King_David]

136. AntiZionism in the USA is considered

extremist and marginal and bigoted.

And I agree .

[Scootaloo]

137. Ah-huh. I have something for you, Dave...

Description of Appeal to Popularity

The Appeal to Popularity has the following form:

1) Most people approve of X (have favorable emotions towards X).
2) Therefore X is true.

The basic idea is that a claim is accepted as being true simply because most people are favorably inclined towards the claim. More formally, the fact that most people have favorable emotions associated with the claim is substituted in place of actual evidence for the claim. A person falls prey to this fallacy if he accepts a claim as being true simply because most other people approve of the claim.

It is clearly fallacious to accept the approval of the majority as evidence for a claim. For example, suppose that a skilled speaker managed to get most people to absolutely love the claim that 1+1=3. It would still not be rational to accept this claim simply because most people approved of it. After all, mere approval is no substitute for a mathematical proof. At one time people approved of claims such as "the world is flat", "humans cannot survive at speeds greater than 25 miles per hour", "the sun revolves around the earth" but all these claims turned out to be false.

This sort of "reasoning" is quite common and can be quite an effective persusasive device. Since most humans tend to conform with the views of the majority, convincing a person that the majority approves of a claim is often an effective way to get him to accept it. Advertisers often use this tactic when they attempt to sell products by claiming that everyone uses and loves their products. In such cases they hope that people will accept the (purported) approval of others as a good reason to buy the product.

This fallacy is vaguely similar to such fallacies as Appeal to Belief and Appeal to Common Practice. However, in the case of an Ad Populum the appeal is to the fact that most people approve of a claim. In the case of an Appeal to Belief, the appeal is to the fact that most people believe a claim. In the case of an Appeal to Common Practice, the appeal is to the fact that many people take the action in question.

This fallacy is closely related to the Appeal to Emotion fallacy, as discussed in the entry for that fallacy.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html

Further your claim seems to be a baseless assertion even taken on its own; I doubt most Americans have an opinion on Zionism one way or another (Sadly, my countrymen aren't especially astute about politics relevant to the US, much less political beliefs that don't apply much to us)

Also you again tried to equate zionism and Israel in your previous post. I suspect that even you don't have a very good grasp of the concepts you're trying to work with here.

[oberliner]

138. Who is Dave?

What is the point of not calling people by their screen name?

[Scootaloo]

140. ...

[King_David]

147. Extremists on the extreme right and on the extreme left

Agree with the bigoted Anti Zionist concept
amongst other extreme and bigoted and dangerous views they share.

---------–

Professor Robert S. Wistrich, head of the Vidal Sassoon International Center for the Study of Antisemitism at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, is the originator of Marcus's second view of anti-Zionism (that anti-Zionism and antisemitism merged post-1948) argues that much contemporary anti-Zionism, particularly forms that compare Zionism and Jews with Hitler and the Third Reich, has become a form of antisemitism:

Anti-Zionism has become the most dangerous and effective form of anti-Semitism in our time, through its systematic delegitimization, defamation, and demonization of Israel. Although not a priori anti-Semitic, the calls to dismantle the Jewish state, whether they come from Muslims, the Left, or the radical Right, increasingly rely on an anti-Semitic stereotypization of classic themes, such as the manipulative "Jewish lobby," the Jewish/Zionist "world conspiracy," and Jewish/Israeli "warmongers." [18]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism#section_3

[Violet_Crumble]

38. Yeah, I'm pretty sure Tibetans don't identify as Chinese....

I got too busy sniggering away at the discovery in this thread that Tibet is totally landlocked and a flotilla is out of the question to post and wonder about the way the title of the article referred to Tibetans as Chinese...

[LeftishBrit]

40. There is actually quite a lot of active international opposition to the Tibet occupation

http://www.freetibet.org/

http://www.savetibet.org/

https://www.studentsforafreetibet.org/

http://www.tibetnetwork.org/

http://www.tibetwatch.org/

http://standupfortibet.org/global-action/global-protests/


And coverage by human rights organizations:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/china-must-end-crackdown-after-self-immolations-tibet-2012-06-01

http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/02/01/china-stop-sentencing-tibetans-inciting-immolations

http://www.examiner.com/article/amnesty-international-criticizes-tibet-off-from-world


And quite a lot of media coverage, e.g.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18275735

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20457627

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/08/china-cracks-down-tibet-protests

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2012/mar/07/self-immolation-tibet-china-interactive


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/tibet-crackdown-fear-as-china-protests-escalate-8301363.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/tibetan-leader-calls-on-west-to-speak-out-on-repression-6264000.html

[shira]

41. Not one UN resolution since 1965....

Last edited Sat Feb 23, 2013, 08:59 AM - Edit history (2)

But the public U.N. entrance is just the tip of the iceberg. There is only one entire U.N. Division devoted to a single group of people — the U.N. Division for Palestinian Rights (created in 1977). There is only one U.N. website dedicated to the claims of a single people — the enormous UNISPAL, the United Nations Information System on the Question of Palestine. There is only one refugee agency dedicated to a single refugee situation — UNRWA, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (in operation since 1950.)

Is this just an Israeli problem? Not if you're a Dalit in India, a farm worker in Zimbabwe, or a Tibetan, and your rights are not on the U.N. agenda.

http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/unitednations/index.htm

[Scootaloo]

47. No matter how hard you whine, reality is not going to alter for you.

Sorry Shira. This attempt was even fucking dumber than your many other fucking dumb attempts.

Maybe tomorrow, my strepsirrhine friend. Tomorrow, maybe Daniel Pipes or Bat Ye'or will vomit forth something for you to pretend is The Greatest Argument Ever™.

[shira]

50. Why isn't there even a fraction as much concern for Tibet as there is Palestine?

Why is there 1000x more rage towards Israel than China?

What's your best guess?

Don't pretend the hypocrisy doesn't exist.

[Scootaloo]

52. I'm not pretending; it really does not exist

You claimed there was no discussion of Tibet; you were proven utterly wrong.
You claimed 'leftists' did not support Tibet. Again, proven utterly wrong.
You tried to argue that anyone who talks about this instead of that is a terrible awful person, and were shown to be total hypocrite.
You even tried to talk like Tibet has motherfucking sea access, which was so wrong it was Not Even Wrong.

After your shitty fucking argument from your shitty fucking website got its ass kicked down the road on damn near every point, you have lampreyed onto the reliable old argument of "the UN is not perfect." And you're right, it's not. Now what, Shira? You're a dog who finally caught that car you were chasing. What are you going to do with it now?

Evidently from this post, you're going to go back to the arguments that just got nailed to the fucking wall.

[shira]

54. So why hail the the UN when it's politically compromised and bigoted?

The UN sux but is awesome WRT Israel? Is that the only reason it's considered credible WRT human rights?



Israel is the only UN member nation excluded from being elected to numerous UN bodies, including the UNHRC and Security Council.

Thought you were anti-racist and against such apartheid?

========

And WRT the anti-Imperialist/Colonialist Left, you must be kidding. In comparison to Israel, China/Tibet gets a fraction of the attention, outrage, and advocacy. That you can sit there and deny it is outrageous. Seriously, is your nose growing the more you type on this thread?

[Scootaloo]

59. You're boinging again.

The UN is imperfect. "Politically compromised" is a big step from there, and asserting the entire grouping is "bigoted" is an even bigger jump from there. Considering what the UN is, it actually works out surprisingly well. Could be better. Could be a whole lot worse, too.

And yes, Shira, I am telling you there is a hell of a lot of pro-Tibet advocacy from the left. It might outrage you, but that doesn't make it "outrageous" in the general sense. Maybe you should bet smaller sums on the left being this evil, intolerable scourge upon humanity that you seem to imagine.

Also, I hope to see you advocating for Tibet in some context other than "so long as Israel can hide behind them."

[shira]

61. That's all you can say about the UN? It's imperfect? On human rights, it's beyond odious...

We're not talking just Tibetans, but hundreds of millions worldwide who are suffering and whose voices crying out for help are all but ignored due to the politics of the UN. Meanwhile slave-holding nations sit on UN human rights councils, genocidaires, etc. Sudan, Syria, Gaddafi's Libya, Cuba....

And all you have to say is it's imperfect?

====================

I don't believe there's all this pro-Tibet advocacy you're speaking of, either from the far Left or far Right. Sounds like horse shit.

You're telling me that if 100 Palestinians set themselves on fire, the "human rights" community would react pretty much the same way as it has so far WRT Tibet? Being that the guardians of human rights are fair minded people.

Really?

[Scootaloo]

66. Yes, it's imperfect

And that's what comes of an organization of this nature. What, you think its record would be less odious if the US and Israel were the only nations to ever have a say? Hardly, though that seems to be what you want. You want a great human rights record, well, we might as well just crown Finland or Costa Rica king of the world and be done with it.

(I'm voting Costa Rica, because I can't handle all those damn vowels in Finnish. Louihaainenkapallaanienen who the fuck talks like that?)

You can disbelieve all you want. Just makes you look silly.

And I have no idea what would happen. I can place a reasonable guess on what western media will say; "100 Palestinians set themselves on fire; Israel reports no injuries - 'thank god no people were injured!' says state department official"

What's really got my curiosity is what the response will be when the Dalai Lama dies, and that last mitigating factor is removed from Tibetan resistance. There's not going to be another Dalai Lama after him, and even if there is, he will either be a PRC puppet or a western outsider, and either way Tibetans will not care. I foresee a violent resistance movement forming very swiftly after his passing. And Xinjuan will most likely follow. Welcome to the 21st century, I hope you enjoyed your stay in the world of stable nation-states!

[shira]

68. A UN that is deeply racist against sub-Saharan Africa, electing Libya, Cuba, Syria.....

...as well as slave-holding countries like Mauritania or racist genocidaires like Sudan or hellholes like Saudi Arabia and Iran to its HR councils is only imperfect?



Is that how you would describe Israel? Israel's imperfect?

Seriously. I think you'd go way beyond that WRT Israel. Not so much the UN....

I'm just looking for consistency from you, that's all. Where there's no consistency, I get to cry bullshit, double-standards, and hypocrisy.

Deal?

[Scootaloo]

71. That is in fact exactly how I describe Israel

And have done so consistently.

And yes, the UN is imperfect. You really expect absolute clockwork perfection from an attempt to get all the world's nations working under one roof? There's idealism, and then there's outright delusion.

Also, Iran has never been a member of the UNHRC, nor its predecessor the UNCHR. Sudan was on the UNCHR, but withdrew its candidacy for the UNHRC. Mauritania and Saudi Arabia were in the UNCHR and are presently in the UNHRC. As are such gems as nation-destroying, torture-using United States, with its world's highest incarceration rate, Russia, which tries to emulate the US but in a more, uh, Russian fashion (that's not a good thing), Thailand, the child sex-slave capital of the world, and Peru, which is currently engaged in an attempt to rid itself of pesky land-owning Indians.

It also contains genuinely lovable nations like Austria, Costa Rica, Botswana, and Poland (never forget Poland!)

Do you understand that this is the result of regional groupings holding their own votes, and not some bizzare global anti-Israel conspiracy conjured up by hte evil king of the UN, Zombie Arafat or... whatever the fuck you think is going on? Flawed as it is, this is the way it works. As I said, if you want human rights perfection, then some sort of sole authority will have to be in place, and fuck you, it sure s hell isn't going to be the Us or Israel - I already nominated two candidates for the position of King Nation of Human Rights - who the fuck needs a council for a global body, anyway?

[shira]

88. So Israel is imperfect? Like the UN, USA, Saudi Arabia? n/t

[Scootaloo]

118. Are you having trouble understanding what I just told you? n/t

[shira]

151. Well yeah, that's why I asked those questions. n/t

[Scootaloo]

186. But I just SAID that's what I think

And I've said it plenty of times.

Maybe the notion that anyone who criticizes Israel must of course hate Israel is so embedded in your brain that you just can't understand? I hope not, 'cause despite our inability to be buddies, i'd like to think you're brighter than those asshats who believed anyone opposed to Bush policy "hated America" y'know?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

119. Ala kysy kuolleilta, he sanoivat, Ambulanssikuskitar!

[LeftishBrit]

102. You are assuming this, because you only have your antennae out for criticism of Israel

There is in fact lots of concern about Tibet.

There is perhaps less international concern about some of the other things that China does, such as its blatant discrimination against its own rural citizens, which could at times be described as virtual apartheid:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/12/25/world/asia/china-migrant-family

China gets away with quite a lot, I would say just because it's bigger than any other country!


But as regards Tibet, there is plenty of international opposition. I am not talking about the UN, which in my view is pretty disorganized, too influenced by political blocs of countries, ineffective on most things. 'United' it ain't. But the oppression and occupation of Tibet does get lots of media attention; and there are many pro-Tibet organizations.

Are you aware for example that there is a weekly pro-Tibet vigil outside the Chinese embassy in London?

http://www.tibetsociety.com/content/view/41/48/

[shira]

114. If 100 Palestinians self-immolate demanding their rights, do you expect....

...more, less, or the same type coverage/advocacy as you're seeing now with Tibet/China?

You know, there's actually some buzz in Israel about Palestinian prisoners going on hunger strike. Wanna see which story gets more coverage and advocacy? That or Tibetans?

[Jefferson23]

48. An completely dishonest representation of when and how often the UN allegedly

ignores the Tibetan people's dire circumstances. The reasoning is that no UN resolution dogging
China presently should be equated to mean no one "cares" at the UN. No one cares about the
Palestinians unless Israel can be blamed; I can't help but wonder if the PRC uses the same
dumb ass excuse in reverse to push back on their critics. No one cares about the Tibetans,
they really really just hate China!!!! ACK!

This PR slick was hired to write an OP and I would love to know how much he was paid to write
such a dishonest appraisal. He omits the politics of the super power China and how long they've been
a permanent presence on the Security Council..how he omits the fact that so many countries, those
developed and those who are not who depend on China for their economy. The political power of China
is not a small issue to ignore, but the author does so regardless. He leaves out the uproar from the
Bejing Olympics too, leaves out that as yet, no country has openly disputed China's claim to
sovereignty. He wishes to dismiss all the politics, it should have no place in the scheme of things.
China's ability to block all UN Security Council resolutions on Tibet..don't look at the politics, just
be rest assured no " cares ".

Can't you just hear his sincerity in the OP for the Tibetan's? Sounds as sincere as shira's.

He also refrains to discuss the super power on the Security Council, the United States, who has
the back of the Israeli government, over and over again..but this is ok. This OP's objective is to
say, please stop looking at what Israel does..pretty please.

When you consider the false claim that Israels critics need to place their criticism proportionally, one
needs to only look at the reports from human rights groups that are ignored by these same groups.
Temper each and every fucking word you say against the Israeli government because if you do not
it really means your intentions must be sinister and therefore should be dismissed...for the most part.

The OP is one pile of garbage.

United Nations

Appeal by His Holiness the Dalai Lama of Tibet to the United Nations (1950)
United Nations G.A. Resolution 1353 (XIV) on Tibet (1959)
United Nations G.A. Resolution 1723 (XVI) on Tibet (1961), calling for the Tibetan people's right to self-determination
United Nations G.A. Resolution 2079 (XX) on Tibet (1965)
Commission on Human Rights: Sub-Commission Resolution 1991/10: Situation in Tibet
Secretary-General's Report: Situation in Tibet, E/CN.4/1992/37
Report: Special Rapporteur on Torture, E/CN.4/1995/34 (excerpt)
Report: Working Group on Enforced Disappearances, E/CN.4/1995/36 (excerpt)
Report: Special Rapporteur on Extrajudicial Executions, E/CN.4/1995/61 (excerpt)
Report: Special Rapporteur on Religious Intolerance, E/CN.4/1995/91 (excerpt)
Report: Special Rapporteur on Religious Intolerance, Addendum, E/CN.4/1995/91/Add.1 (excerpt)
Report: Committee against Torture, A/51/44 (1996) (excerpt)
Concluding Observations of the UN Committee On Racial Discrimination 1996 (excerpt)
Concluding Observations of the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child (1996) (excerpt)
Report: Special Rapporteur on Extrajudicial Executions, E/CN.4/1996/4 (excerpt)
Report: Special Rapporteur on Torture, E/CN.4/1996/35 (excerpt)
Report: Special Rapporteur on Torture, Addendum, E/CN.4/1996/35/Add.1 (excerpt)
Report: Working Group on Enforced Disappearances, E/CN.4/1996/38 (excerpt)
Report: Working Group on Arbitrary Detention, E/CN.4/1996/40 (excerpt)
Report: Special Rapporteur on Religious Intolerance, E/CN.4/1996/95 (excerpt)
Concluding Observations of the Committee on the Rights of the Child, CRC/C/CHN/CO/2 (2005)
Report of the Special Rapporteur on the promotion and protection of the right to freedom of opinion and expression, Ambeyi Ligabo - Summary of cases transmitted to Governments and replies received, A/HRC/4/27/Add.1 (2007)
Concluding Observations of the Committee Against Torture, CAT/C/CHN/CO/4 (2008)
Joint Statement of UN Human Rights Experts on Tibet (2008) (Chinese version here)
Concluding Observations of the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discriminiation, CERD/C/CHN/CO/10-13 (2009)

https://sites.google.com/site/legalmaterialsontibet/

[shira]

53. So what are the agony aunts, renders of garments, and hand wringers doing since 1965....?

1965 was the last time a UN resolution was passed vs. China WRT Tibet. The UNHRC hasn't even entertained a possible resolution WRT the situation since 2005.

UN reform is required to end this bullshit.

Where's the outrage?

Face it, you're just mad because the movement you support is morally bankrupt and has been busted. The more they're exposed, the more pissed you get.

[Jefferson23]

56. You may believe that if you post ridiculous responses like this enough you'll become

successful at protecting Israel.

The responses are somewhat comic entertainment, on occasion ..I'll give you that.


The outrage meter will never ever register high enough for you to withdraw your
poorly constructed OP. That is why it's used, where is the outrage for the Tibetan
people? It's way over there>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far behind Israel, of course.

It's sad how you do go on without a shred of credibility in what you post.

[shira]

58. Imagine the outrage and gnashing of teeth had 100 Palestinians self-combusted....

Are you going to sit there and tell me that the world would be no more upset and outraged as they are now WRT the Tibetans than they would be had 100 Palestinians ignited themselves demanding their rights?

Yes or No?

[Jefferson23]

60. If you like, re-read what I already stated and the link.

It's like you have a never ending hick up...sad stuff.

[shira]

62. Oh? You answered this? Which post number, please? n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

168. Recced coz this is one of the funniest threads I've seen in ages!

Flotillas to Tibet. No Free Tibet movement. No Godwinising when it comes to China. This has been such an all-round sniggerfest of a thread...

Thank you!

[shira]

169. Good. In the future, it'll remind you that your favorite advocacy groups....

...have been exposed for their zealoted and obsessive hypocrisy and double-standards.

You should bookmark it.

Lemme know when you find FreeGaza, BDS, CodePink, Mondoweiss, etc.. doing their thing making sure Tibet gets headlines and that it's not forgotten or ignored - whether in the media or UN.

Good luck with that.

[Violet_Crumble]

170. I don't play favourites, and it's not them who is zealoted and obsessive...

Yada, yada, yada, hypocrisy, blah blah, double-standards...

I don't understand yr rage and vitriol aimed at organisations that support the Tibetan cause because they forget or ignore Palestine. It doesn't make any sense at all to me that yr demanding they multitask and focus on multiple conflicts instead of one. Most lefty types I know support freedom for Tibet and organisations that support it, and would be horrified at yr logic.

[shira]

171. If the Lefty types you know and respect support Tibet....

....they'd be making Nazi comparisons just as they do with Israel. Think about it.

After all, China has killed 1.2 million in its conflict (which is 60x more than in I/P).

So the same far Left wing advocates who you admire are doing either 1 of 2 things:

a) They're involved with Tibet but for some reason don't find Chinese comparisons with nazis appropriate. That's why we can't find much of anything in google when looking it up.

b) They're not involved with Tibet, otherwise they'd be using the nazi comparison. We'd expect similar advocacy against anti-Imperialism, Colonialism, Occupation, etc...

The point being, just about all those advocacy groups you admire leave their little footy prints behind in their advocacy, in the form of Nazi comparisons. Find another conflict worldwide where the comparison is made, and it's likely you'll find your fellow Lefty mates doing their thing and getting all jiggy with it on flotillas and/or bds'ing.

Good luck with that, as they're phony, one-trick ponies. You won't find them doing shit.

No mystery there.

[Violet_Crumble]

172. WTF? My friends don't make Nazi comparisons...

You don't know who my friends are or who I admire, btw, so I'm not sure what yr wanting to achieve by making up such ugly and nasty accusations...

Also, 'we' clearly didn't look anything up on Google before 'we' made the claim that China NEVER got compared to the Nazis. Instead of getting thanked for correcting you on that, all I copped was abuse.

All this rage because I dared point out that it's kinda a tad hypocritical to be condemning organisations that focus on Palestine for not focusing on Tibet while giving a pass to organisations that focus on Tibet and not Palestine?

I'll let you get back to posting more articles linking Palestinians to Nazis. That might help you relax a bit

[shira]

178. Friends like the ISM, etc. Organizations you used to support....

Maybe you still support them, who knows. But they're the ones that make Nazi comparisons. You know, the same organizations for BDS

Do you not support those groups anymore?

=========

Once again, the organizations mentioned attempt to advertise themselves as groups sensitive to human rights elsewhere. Now that's obviously a lie. They don't even advocate for Palestinians unless Israel can be blamed, much less Tibet, Darfur, etc. If you disagreed, you'd have made a solid argument by now rather than duck and evade questions.

[Violet_Crumble]

187. Again WTF?? They're not my friends.

My friends are individuals I hang out with and have fun with. They're work colleagues, old school and uni friends, neighbors, and a few friends I've made online. But I'm not friends with any organization.

Apart from that I'm not interested in what you have to say about any group and have made it very clear why. Rather than repeat myself you should read the posts you've been replying to.