Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumIsrael admits Ethiopian women were given birth control shots
Health Minister director general instructs all gynecologists in Israel's four health maintenance organizations not to inject women with long-acting contraceptive Depo-Provera if they do not understand ramifications of treatment.
By Talila Nesher | Jan.27, 2013 | 2:29 AM |
A government official has for the first time acknowledged the practice of injecting women of Ethiopian origin with the long-acting contraceptive Depo-Provera.
Health Ministry Director General Prof. Ron Gamzu has instructed the four health maintenance organizations to stop the practice as a matter of course. The ministry and other state agencies had previously denied knowledge or responsibility for the practice, which was first reported five years ago. Gamzu’s letter instructed “all gynecologists in the HMOs not to renew prescriptions for Depo-Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment.” Gamzu also instructed physicians to avail themselves of translators if need be.
Gamzu’s letter came in response to a letter from Sharona Eliahu-Chai of the Association of Civil Rights in Israel, representing several women’s rights and Ethiopian immigrants’ groups. The letter demanded the injections cease immediately and that an investigation be launched into the practice.
About six weeks ago, on an Educational Television program journalist Gal Gabbay revealed the results of interviews with 35 Ethiopian immigrants. The women’s testimony could help explain the almost 50-percent decline over the past 10 years in the birth rate of Israel’s Ethiopian community. According to the program, while the women were still in transit camps in Ethiopia they were sometimes intimidated or threatened into taking the injection. “They told us they are inoculations,” said one of the women interviewed. “They told us people who frequently give birth suffer. We took it every three months. We said we didn’t want to.”
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-admits-ethiopian-women-were-given-birth-control-shots-1.496519
I saw the link on Twitter from Adam Sewer, Mother Jones reporter/blogger.
1/26/13, 9:11 PM
Sad, disgusting and tragic. http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-admits-ethiopian-women-were-given-birth-control-shots-1.496519
AdamSerwer (@AdamSerwer)
1/26/13, 9:26 PM
The rescue of Ethiopian Jews loomed large for me as a biracial Jewish kid growing up, as I suspect it did for others...
AdamSerwer (@AdamSerwer)
1/26/13, 9:26 PM
...it will now have to be told differently.
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
elleng
(130,974 posts)
lunasun
(21,646 posts)
Pirate Smile
(27,617 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Max came out swinging and Adam backed down.
As for this story - glad to hear that Israel is cracking down on this and instructing HMO's not to administer the drug without understanding and consent.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)That's fascinating.
Yes, full marks to Israel for putting a stop to these rascally shenanigans. Hopefully now we can all put this silly little episode behind us.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)You can Google it for more info - don't want to derail the thread.
And yes, indeed, full marks for Israel.
It's good that they have such a vigorous tradition of human rights organizations bringing things to light and holding the government accountable for their actions.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)I found several of articles on anti-Israel websites and in anti-Israel newspapers making the claim that the birthrate of Ethiopian women had fallen by 50% once they got to Israel. None of them provided any actual numbers. But, I do note that the birthrate in Ethiopia even if halved is still higher than that of the entirety of Israel.
This looks like more anti-Israel propaganda than something really factual. Sounds like something that happened to a few women. But, why would a country want a birthrate of 42.9? In the US it is US: 13.68.
For most of us, having a lot of children means poverty. Giving women birth control can be empowering.
Israel: 18.97
Ethiopia: 42.9
And while we are at it,
Saudi Arabia: 19.19
Iran: 18.52
India: 20.6
China: 12.31
Russia: 10.94
Sudan: 31.7
Niger: 50.6
Mali: 45.15
US: 13.68
Canada: 10.28
United Kingdom: 12.28
Afghanistan: 39.3
Jordan: 26.52
Syria: 23.52
http://www.indexmundi.com/map/?v=25
BainsBane
(53,035 posts)
delrem
(9,688 posts)"But, why would a country want a birthrate of 42.9? In the US it is US: 13.68.
For most of us, having a lot of children means poverty. Giving women birth control can be empowering."
heh... what an interpretation. What a spin.
Earlier today I was reading a 972 article about Ms. Zoabi (thanks Daneel), and this led me to this amazing spectacle:
Then to follow up, looking up Anastasia Michaeli brought me to Mondoweiss who quoted Uri Avnery to give some background context, including how Ms Zoabi's family roots go back hundreds if not thousands of years in the region of Nazareth (yah, that Arab interloper... has no right, no connection...). Contrasted with that of her *very* righteously angry opponent "Anastasia Michaeli was born in (then) Leningrad. She was elected “Miss St. Petersburg” and then became a fashion model, married an Israeli, converted to Judaism, immigrated to Israel at age 24 but sticks to her very Russian first name. She has given birth to eight children."
Maybe she should'be been given some shots too?? To help her out, while in transit? And to fit the spin?
What can I do? I'm struck motionless between the urge to laugh, the urge to cry.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)But when you look at the map at the site I linked to, you realize that countries with high living standards and plenty of food also have low birth rates. In addition, countries that are less prosperous but are attempting to improve their living standard, like China, also have low birth rates.
Cutting the birth rate of a group of women in half is not necessarily a bad thing. It is not necessarily coerced. It may be a matter of choice.
Tricking or coercing women into using birth control is not good. But normally, that is not necessary. Why one one has eight children is not the issue. The fact that Israel's birth rate is lower than some of its neighboring, poorer countries is quite important. The fact that the birth rates in the US, China, Canada, Russia and other countries are low tells something about choices the women are making in those countries.
Saying that a birth rate is cut by 50% does not tell me much. What I would need to know is what it was and what it is cut down to. If it is cut far below the average birth rate in Israel, then we might ask why. But if it is merely closer to the average birth rate in Israel, then it is likely that Ethiopian women are choosing the higher living standard that is possible when a family has fewer children.
delrem
(9,688 posts)"Tricking or coercing women into using birth control is not good. But normally, that is not necessary."
just tooooo... kewl.
You couldn't have skewered yourself with a spit better.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)but the USA did plenty of bad things in the 40s-70s in its mental institutions.
delrem
(9,688 posts)We're none of us far off from being savages.
Dan
(3,570 posts)without knowning the population size...to really determine the population growth...
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)
Tunkamerica
(4,444 posts)US:almost 43 million
China:166.6 million
mali: 15,839,538 at 45.15% is 7.15 million give or take.
It's not as simple as numbers make it, land size and resources def. make a diff. but to break it down just on birth rate is too simple.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)Amazing.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Try living with a family of six in a house measuring 600 square feet. It's noisy, noisy, noisy. And the mother cannot work if she has a family of four small children.
Having fewer children, having a choice as to how many children you bear is empowering to women. Many women are not physically able to have more than two or three children. The damage to a woman's health from the trauma of birth can be very great even in Western countries. Depends on the woman.
Please notice that the countries that we think of as poor have very high birth rates. That does not mean that the babies who are born survive.
Here is a chart of the life expectancies in different countries.
In Israel it is 79.20 for men and 82.9 for women.
In Ethiopia it is 59.5 for men and 62.3 for women.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
By the way, the life expectancy in Israel is higher than in the US with 75.9 for men and 80.5 for women. I just looked this up myself and am surprised by these statistics.
Much of the difference is probably due to differences in mortality rates in infancy and early childhood. The more likely it is that the children that are born to you will live, the fewer children you may feel you want to have. If you think that your children will survive infancy and early childhood, you may want to focus on giving fewer children more of yourself, more time, and more materially in terms of educational opportunities, etc.
Just throwing out a percentage does not tell us much about what is going on. Judging from the comparisons in the birth rates, it looks likely that Israeli women take it for granted that a woman wants access to birth control. I would. As a woman myself, I think that access to birth control is really important.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)Normally, I would skewer your arguments in a withering and colourful fashion, but I'll give that a pass. Your post has the potential to become a bit of a slam dunk competition (with you as the ball) and despite the fact that your racist claptrap fully warrants that treatment, I generally don't like lining up to mob someone.
Now, this is the internet, and you can make obnoxious arguments as much as you like, it counts for nothing. However, I would strongly suggest not trying to justify the involuntary use of birth control on Black women in polite society, or frankly even impolite society. In particular, I would definitely not attempt any of your above arguments in the presence of Black people. I can't stress enough just enough how critical that last piece of advice is.
As it goes, you might be lucky. There aren't many Black people on this website, and this forum in particular is hermetically sealed to prevent its contents from being disseminated any wider than the twelve people who habitually read it. I would probably delete your posts anyway, if it were me. Its up to you though.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Black women in the US choose to use birth control just like white women and for the same reason.
I am saying that women in poor countries either choose to have lots of children or have lots of children because they cannot get birth control.
The article does not say much. It indicates that the birth rate of the Ethopian women fell after they got to Israel. That may be true of African immigrants around the world -- that their birth rates fall when they go to more developed countries. And the availability of birth control is probably the reason.
I do not approve of coercing women to use birth control, but using birth control for family planning frees women to work and reduces the economic pressure on families. That is true for people of all races.
I was amazed to look at this chart of birth rates around the world. African countries that have high infant mortality rates also have high birth rates. That is not surprising. A family would need to have more children born to it in order to have living children.
The US has a fairly low birth rate. I think Israel has a higher one. Ethiopia as twice the birth rate that Israel has. It would not surprise me if Ethiopian women and other immigrant women from countries with high birth rates chose to take birth control and have smaller families when they come to developed countries.
It isn't about race. It is about freeing women of all races.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_birth_rate
These are facts -- statistics -- not my opinion. Germany has according to two of three measures only 8 births per thousand. It is a relatively wealthy country.
Niger, in contrast, has from 46 to over 50 births per thousand. The numbers of children who survive to adulthood is probably not nearly as different as that statistical difference would suggest.
My statements are not about race. They are about women and poverty. And no I don't think that birth control should be forced on people. But this article is not very clear about what really happened. I would need to see the statistics and hear more details.
I think it would be perfectly normal for the birth rate of women from a country with a high birth rate to fall considerably when they moved to a country with a low birth rate. Better health care might be one reason. Availability of birth control would be another.
A woman with a large family cannot provide for the children easily and has fewer professional choices than a woman with a smaller family. There are exceptions, but that is generally the case. Why do you think German women choose to have so few children?
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)The article states that they did NOT choose to take birth control, but that it was given do them wihtout their knowledge.
shira
(30,109 posts)Not a peep from any of the higher ups, or lower downs.
Any journalist worth their salt would have, at the VERY least, interviewed Israeli representatives. This smells like propaganda, not news.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)Health Ministry Director General Prof. Ron Gamzu has instructed the four health maintenance organizations to stop the practice as a matter of course. The ministry and other state agencies had previously denied knowledge or responsibility for the practice, which was first reported five years ago. Gamzu’s letter instructed “all gynecologists in the HMOs not to renew prescriptions for Depo-Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment.” Gamzu also instructed physicians to avail themselves of translators if need be.
shira
(30,109 posts)...admitting to coercion?
Depo-Provera is actually the most popular type of birth control in Ethiopia.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)Who cares what the most popular type of birth control in Ethiopia is? That is not relevant to whether women were injected against their will, or by deception.
So, in your world, the only form of journalism that should exist is a written confession of criminal activity by an individual criminal? Anything before that, like their boss saying "this must stop" is 'propaganda?
You're unbelievable. And, sadly, I really mean that. I won't believe anything you write without checking it with independent sources.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)It had nothing to do with whether the women were coerced into the shots, but there it went flying past my head as part of a volley of flinging irrelevent stuff to try to defend what was done...
shira
(30,109 posts)The population figures show the opposite. Or they show Israel is doing a horrendous job trying to sterilize/control Ethiopian fertility rates.
Maybe that flew over your head. Sorry.
The implication by angry DU'ers is that an Israeli official admitted to coercing/forcing DP on Ethiopian women. That allegation is patently false as Gamzu never admitted to that specific charge. Actually no staff has admitted to that. But rather than admit you're wrong, you're digging in, repeating that he did admit to coercion/force.
There's no point in us going further.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)One thing yr being very loud and clear about implying is that you think those Ethiopian women are liars when they said they were coerced into those shots.
And that's fucking revolting and a racist and antiwoman stance, imo...
shira
(30,109 posts)Was it more than 2?
You keep on believing these bogus reports of forced/coerced DP injections if you want.
I long ago started treating with scepticism these outrageous claims against Israel. Do you know why? Because in every case, the report has lies in it. Whether by omission or commission. Outright lies, half-truths, etc.
And once again, I've been proven right about this report. I know you know the OP is wrong in reporting Israel "admits" to forced/coerced birth control.
So why believe anything else in the article?
===========
What's fucking racist are all these bullshit, lying accusations against the Jewish state. It's one after another. I know you'd never admit to ever seeing such a thing, but.....whatever.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Yr the only one who's claiming they're liars, and given yr past history here, they've got it all over you when it comes to credibility and honesty...
You just keep on yelling that yr right and pretend that yr 'defending Israel' or whatever it is you think yr doing. Me, I'm a bit surprised that someone would go to such high levels of denial when it comes to RW govts ignoring women's reproductive rights, seeing as how similar things have been issues around the world with other RW govts. But you believe Israel's RW govt doesn't do anything wrong ever, so the thought of them acting like a RW govt when it comes to immigrants etc is appalling!
Don't you fucking dare make any accusations of racism. Not after the way you've been going on in this thread defending racism...
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Wed Jan 30, 2013, 07:31 AM - Edit history (1)
Rightwing governments? Even in Nutty's government, there's Peres and Barak....
You think they're rightwing bigots who want to slow down Ethiopian fertility rates?
I don't know who's lying. Whether Ethiopian women or the reporters. So cut the lame accusations of racism, anti-women, etc. This report appears to be as weak as the organ stealing claims, or racist claims WRT throwing out Ethiopian blood. Fun for the anti-Israel propagandists, but bullshit nonetheless.
===========
As to lying, I'd never accuse them of any such thing and here are 3 examples of why:
1. Many Orthodox Jewish men and Observant Muslim men are very much against birth control. I'd never accuse their wives of lying in order to avoid the repurcussions related to telling their husbands they're on birth control.
2. Same WRT Jews or Muslims who deny their faith in order to avoid the repurcussions of doing so in front of dangerous bigots.
===========
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)among women in Ethiopia, the World Health Organization (WHO), draws a different
picture in its reports (chart 1). Analyzing the patterns of contraceptive methods usage
in 1997 reveals high rates of using birth control pills, which are popular also in
Israel. The fact that over 70% of women using a contraceptive method in Ethiopia
prefer use birth control pills, taken orally, contradicts the State’s response, given by
the Minister of Health, that there is a "cultural preference" among the Ethiopian
community for Depo Provera injections.
http://www.isha.org.il/upload/File/%D7%93%D7%A4%D7%95%20%D7%90%D7%A0%D7%92%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%AA.pdf
shira
(30,109 posts)Consequently, a general pattern that has been observed in the contraceptive method mix in sub-Saharan Africa and elsewhere in the developing world is the predominance of injectables.32-34 The Ethiopian DHS data analysed here indicate clearly that the ratio of pill users to injectable users is 1:1.2 nationally, while the corresponding ratio is 1:2 for CBRHS areas, according to the CPS results (Figure 1).
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)This story is going viral as an organized, racist attempt by the GOI to sterilize Ethiopians.
Is that what you think happened?
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)so regrettably their word counts for nothing, at least to some people around here.
We'll just have to wait for a white person to confirm their stories in due course.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)My grandmother had a large family. It was a poverty verdict.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Based on racial background, no less?
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)They were giving these women birth control without consent. Because they are of impure blood according to the racist Israeli government.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)I would need to know how much the birth rate fell and how whether it fell below the average in Israel.
It is not wrong to give women birth control. It is wrong not to fully inform them about the nature and effects of what you are giving them and letting them choose whether or not to take it.
But first, I would like to know how far the birth rate fell.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)that the bc was administered without obtaining meaningful consent. You are playing the denialist's game here.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)or 50% of the birth rate of Israel?
I read that the birth control was administered without meaningful consent, but for how long, to how many women? Was there confusion on the part of the doctors? Why was this done? Was it really racism? Or was it something else?
The article just leaves so many unanswered questions that I don't know what to think of it.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)meaningful consent is all any decent person needs to know before offering an unconditional condemnation.
shira
(30,109 posts)....increased from around 35,000 to 130,000 (>300% increase) while the Israeli population went up from 4.8 to 7.6 million (60% increase).
If Israel is trying to stop Ethiopians from reproducing, their efforts are resulting in the complete opposite.
Note that the article doesn't show Israel "admitting" to these ridiculous charges.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)And why are you continuing to ignore what's in the article itself?
'Health Ministry Director General Prof. Ron Gamzu has instructed the four health maintenance organizations to stop the practice as a matter of course. The ministry and other state agencies had previously denied knowledge or responsibility for the practice, which was first reported five years ago. Gamzu’s letter instructed “all gynecologists in the HMOs not to renew prescriptions for Depo-Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment.” Gamzu also instructed physicians to avail themselves of translators if need be.'
There's women who are saying that it was done to them without their consent. Are you accusing them of being liars?
shira
(30,109 posts)You really need to quote the sentence preceding Gamzu's admittance:
Health Ministry Director General Prof. Ron Gamzu has instructed the four health maintenance organizations to stop the practice as a matter of course. The ministry and other state agencies had previously denied knowledge or responsibility for the practice, which was first reported five years ago. Gamzu’s letter instructed “all gynecologists in the HMOs not to renew prescriptions for Depo-Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment.” Gamzu also instructed physicians to avail themselves of translators if need be.
Now after reading that, you tell me what he's admitting to.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)The article says that the injections were given without the women's consent.
Do you think those women are lying just to make Israel look bad?
shira
(30,109 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)You still haven't answered the question. Are you calling those Ethiopian women liars?
One more thing for now. Yr performance in this thread reminds me of a gun-nut I saw upstairs this morning. In a thread about how a parent of one of the murdered kindy kids at Sandy Hook was yelled down by gun-nuts when he was giving a statement today, a gun-nut appears and starts to argue that it wasn't heckling, it was something else blah blah blah. The only difference between the two of you is that his great love is guns and yr great love is Israel. But both of you are guilty of not seeing the forest for the trees and in doing so coming across as incredibly insensitive and callous...
shira
(30,109 posts)He only "acknowledged the practice of injecting women of Ethiopian origin with the long-acting contraceptive Depo-Provera."
There's no point going further with you when you refuse to comprehend what he admitted to.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)And yr going to be waiting till hell freezes over for me to agree with yr incredibly warped 'arguments' that rely heavily on believing that the Ethiopian women who said they were coerced into the shots are lying about it to make Israel look bad...
For the last time, because I'm walking away for a while before I end up with my first ever hidden post for expanding on what Shaay said before, Israel has admitted to the practice. From the OP. For fuck's sake, you need to stop cherrypicking bits and pieces that suit you out of the article:
'Gamzu’s letter instructed “all gynecologists in the HMOs not to renew prescriptions for Depo-Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment.” Gamzu also instructed physicians to avail themselves of translators if need be.'
shira
(30,109 posts)Because contraceptives may introduce social discord, leading at times to intimate partners’ violence amongst African couples, women of low bargaining powers often resort to family planning methods that are suitable to covert use.30-31 Women can take injections of depo-provera while visiting a health facility and remain protected against unwanted pregnancies for three months. This may be done without their husband’s knowledge and without the bother of having to remember to take the pill or to undergo clinical procedures that are involved when opting for implants or intrauterine devices. Consequently, a general pattern that has been observed in the contraceptive method mix in sub-Saharan Africa and elsewhere in the developing world is the predominance of injectables.32-34 The Ethiopian DHS data analysed here indicate clearly that the ratio of pill users to injectable users is 1:1.2 nationally, while the corresponding ratio is 1:2 for CBRHS areas, according to the CPS results (Figure 1).
But the anti-Israel propagandists are definitely lying and aren't the least bit ashamed of it...
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Sorry, but yr views when it comes to women are absolutely disgusting. And yr flailing round calling anyone who dares to utter a word of criticism of Israel 'anti-Israel propagandist' is downright pathetic...
shira
(30,109 posts)...would you take the chance admitting you're using contraceptives voluntarily?
Do you not get it?
Or do you not want to get it?
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Instead of inventing silly stories (why woudl anyone who didn't want hubby to know turn round and admit openly they were on it at all?) and behaving as though you know the details of every individiual woman who said they were coerced, why don't you have a think for a while about how yr behaviour in this thread is coming across to many DUers. Not only is it appearing as just a bit on the racist side, but also not woman-friendly at all and quite insensitive and callous. Maybe you don't care about how you come across, but just in case you do, you really should rethink yr approach to things...
shira
(30,109 posts)I don't trust a fucking thing in the article. It's bullshit and you know it's bullshit as Gamzu didn't admit to what you're accusing Israel of doing.
How many Ethiopian women were interviewed?
2 or 3?
Get real.
=========
And the very fact you don't support women using contraceptives covertly so that their husbands don't go off is anti-women.
Israel also isn't racist towards Ethiopians...
http://archive.adl.org/presrele/IslME_62/2659_62.asp
Whatever Israel's mistakes towards its Ethiopian Jewish community, the cause is not racism. Support for the African immigrants, as measured by public opinion and government investment, is strong. Government assistance is much greater than for other immigrant groups. And reports of social discrimination are rare in a country with little experience in black-white relations.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)No-one gives a shit if someone like you doesn't trust something. Most DUers are well aware of how you defend anything and everything Israel does to the point of blindness.
Again, it doesn't matter how many women were interviewed, as yr calling them all liars anyway, and now with some really bizarre twisting of epic proportions yr going to accuse me of being antiwoman for daring to think they're not liars. You need to stop making up stuff that isn't true. Nowhere have I said that I support anyone but a woman and her doctor being involved in her reproductive choices. It's a fucking lie to say that I did...
shira
(30,109 posts)When I showed you the preceding sentence (which shows what Gamzu admitted to) you couldn't respond to it. You know you're wrong and you have no explanation for what precedes the paragraph you took out of context.
1. Now tell me, can you admit to ANY news reports lying about Israeli actions?
2. As to yr bullshit accusation of lying, racism and anti-women bigotry, tell me why you wouldn't support a woman who wants to take birth control covertly, in order to avoid repercussions WRT her husband finding out about it?
I get it. I'm all for it. Are you?
3. How do you know this cannot be the case WRT Ethiopian women who say they were forced to take DP? I referred you to a scholarly paper showing that to be the case WRT Ethiopian women taking contraceptives. Why ignore that? If I were married to an Ethiopian man who is big time against contraception (which is likely) you'd better believe I'd deny taking contraceptives willingly if he asked.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Is there something wrong with you? Why are you lying about my views on reproductive choice for women? And it is lying because the first time you came out with that crap I corrected you, but you immediately repeat it. What's hard for you to grasp when I tell you that I have never and will never believe that a woman's choice when it comes to her own body needs to go anywhere other than between herself and her doctor? Are you somehow translating this into another language only you can understand? Just so we're clear, if you make that same ugly accusation about me and reproductive choice again, I will alert on you because imo in repeating it after being told my views, it would be dishonest...
So, no. My views on yr posts in this thread aren't bullshit. I think you'll find most other DUers would be agreeing on this and getting a pretty icky feeling at how you and one other person have raced to defend the practice of coercing women into taking birth control without them being fully informed...
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I have been accused, on three to four occasions, of siding and supporting Hamas or being a sympathizer of them and other regimes.
Anybody that wasn't intellectually lazy and read my posts would know that I would never do that.
This is the shtick of some that have no real way to argue their bankrupt points so instead they accuse others of vile things. I will not put said poster on ignore since I don't do that, but I will not converse with one who IMHO misrepresents me, and apparently others, outright.
Talk about an icky feeling.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)They've accused me of holding beliefs I don't hold, even a post or so after I've told someone else what I do believe, which is usually the exact opposite.
As you said it is the tactic of trolls and those who have no real argument. I also see it as sometimes being a case of people who hold extreme views projecting their own extremism onto others...
shira
(30,109 posts)What has that got to do with my question?
In #138, I made it very clear as to why I'd never accuse these women of being liars. I asked if you agreed and you give me that as an answer?
How do you explain the fact that no Israelis have confirmed the practice of coercing uninformed women into taking DP? All you have is a quote you deliberately took out of context. You intentionally ignored the sentence preceding it, which shows exactly what Gamzu acknowledged. And it is not what you're charging Israel with.
So here you go again, accusing me falsely of defending practices that have not yet been confirmed by any Israeli staff member involved with DP injections. If that were confirmed, then of course I'd condemn it. But it hasn't. I'd appreciate if you stopped with the false accusations. If you do it again, I'm alerting.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)I don't know how much clearer I can be on this. You outright lied about my views, after being corrected on it the first time. Do you think people don't notice? It's very obvious that they do, especially as you do this regularly and to just about everyone in this group you disagree with.
You seem to be struggling to understand how and why you've lied in this case, so I'll walk you very slowly through it. If you get confused and can't follow, yell out HAMAS! and I'll stop and walk back and guide you through the rest.
1. In a post a few posts up you falsely said: 'And the very fact you don't support women using contraceptives covertly so that their husbands don't go off is anti-women.' even though I've never said anything of the sort and have no idea why you came out with such an ugly accusation.
2. I replied to you explaining that I don't hold that view at all 'You need to stop making up stuff that isn't true. Nowhere have I said that I support anyone but a woman and her doctor being involved in her reproductive choices. It's a fucking lie to say that I did...'
3. Ignoring that, you return with more of the same crap: 'tell me why you wouldn't support a woman who wants to take birth control covertly, in order to avoid repercussions WRT her husband finding out about it?'
4. WTF? If this was a case of someone honestly being confused because there was something ambiguous somewhere in it, I'd kind of understand but still think they were a bit silly, but in this case I really can't see how anyone could make a genuine mistake as to what I said. And given yr track record when it comes to being less than honest about the views of myself and other DUers in this group, I don't see a need to give you any benefit of the doubt...
5. In future stick to what people say to you and leave the creative writing for elsewhere...
6. I hope that's clear enough for you...
7. You were asked a question multiple times. You ignored it. The argument you put up was that what the women were saying had been done to them hadn't happened. Twisting and squirming now and saying you don't know if it's them or a journalist (who, btw, interviewed them for a documentary) who's lying isn't much of a shift in positions...
shira
(30,109 posts)You avoided the question, which makes me believe you won't answer b/c it destroys your position. Either that or you're against it. What else am I to believe other than that you'll squirm, deflect, and attack rather than answer any simple question?
You did the same to me, BTW when you asked whether I think some Ethiopians on DP are lying. When you didn't get an answer you liked, you said I think they're lying when I never admitted to any such thing.
You did it here in #126:
Never said that. Anytime.
You did it in your headline to #140:
I never labeled Ethiopian women liars.
In future stick to what people say to you and leave the creative writing for elsewhere...
You should follow your own rule, don't you think?
You were asked a question multiple times. You ignored it. The argument you put up was that what the women were saying had been done to them hadn't happened. Twisting and squirming now and saying you don't know if it's them or a journalist (who, btw, interviewed them for a documentary) who's lying isn't much of a shift in positions...
I didn't just say that, did I? I made the argument that they are no more lying than anyone else trying to avoid the repurcussions of coming out honestly. Many (not all) super devout Jewish, Christian, and Muslim families have husbands who'd go ape-shit medieval on their wives if they found out about covert birth control. I would never call those women liars. And now that you know that, save your sanctimony for another argument.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Point to the post you did that in. Was it before I clearly explained my view (and if you posted or read anywhere but in this forum you'd already know I'm pro-choice)? Or was it after I'd clearly explained my view?
shira
(30,109 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)What that was was a bizarre thing where you pretended you knew details about these women. 'If your husband had a BIG problem with you using contraceptives.......would you take the chance admitting you're using contraceptives voluntarily?'
It had fuck all to do with what was being discussed, and most definitely wasn't a question about my views.
So, instead of doubling down, stop lying about my views on birth control.
Are we clear?
Good....
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)IMHO said poster is not struggling to understand, but is fairly adept in this maneuver of pretense.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That is sort of your trademark.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)The issue is injecting women with birth control drugs without their knowledge because of their ethnicity.
Oh, my God. I just clicked to this thread from another thread and didn't realize I was in I/P until just now. Now this contortionist apologetics makes sense. I'm sorry. Carry on.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Are you saying that it is ok to force women to take birth control, or did i read you wrong. And what about tricking them into taking it, or did I really read you wrong?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)But I don't think the articles I have read making the accusations that this happened give me enough information to really know what happened or what difference it made in birth rates. The article's information is very sketchy. It may be a propaganda piece. I have seen so much anti-Israel propaganda on DU that this piece makes me suspicious. It may have a kernel of truth in it but not be a huge scandal. On the other hand, it may be a very huge scandal indeed. I cannot tell from the article.
But I will say that birth control more than anything else frees, liberates women.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)or your daughters?
I *really* want to get this straight...
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)race or poverty.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)As it's made pretty clear the shots were coercive and not something the women treated wanted; also made clear is that it was pressed on a particular race of people.
Might want to look up some of the side -effects of the stuff, and the big long struggle Pfizer had to get the FDA to approve it.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)It's unclear from the article what happened. It's unclear how often it happened. The article does not give any statistics other than 50%. And without statistics, it is hard to say whether there was an evil intent or whether people made mistakes and did not understand each other. The government is now offering translators. They probably should have been present in the first place. But they apparently weren't.
From the articles I read, it is hard to know what happened, how many women were affected and what a decrease in the birthrate of 50% meant in terms of numbers and cultural differences.
There is also an article on DU about a North Korean father who ate his children. Is it true? I have no idea. Some DUers think that is just propaganda. I have no idea.
I do know that depicting Jewish people as baby killers or kidnappers was a common excuse in Europe for persecuting Jews. I don't know that is the case here because the stories about this are quite vague. It may be that 5 women were given this drug or 500 or 50,000. Hard to say. A drop in the birth rate may be good or bad depending on what the drop of 50% was from. If it was from the birth rate in Ethiopia, it could be very good for the health and well being of the women. If it was from the birth rate of Israeli women, it would mean that there might be a serious problem of discrimination and persecution, verging on genocide. I could not say without more information.
shira
(30,109 posts)
mike_c
(36,281 posts)eom
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)And there's still the issue of consent. And the intent behind the practice.
shira
(30,109 posts)There's been no investigation into whether this was done w/o consent.
There's been no investigation as to whether there was ill-intent behind DP injections.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)"12 weeks" became "18 months" in my memory. That's my fault for not re-checking before my response. There's still the fact it was used as a regimen injection, however. Also according to Planned Parenthood's page on the drug...
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/birth-control/birth-control-shot-depo-provera-4242.htm
The women say it was done under coercion, or without their knowledge. And the contraceptive was used mostly on Ethiopian women. And the Israeli officials admit wrongdoing. I'd bet money that an actual investigation would turn up lots more unpleasant things related to this; that seems to be the way of such things.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)
Exultant Democracy
(6,594 posts)Of course they learned this from us. The US did the same thing to black women in the US for the better part of the last century.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)According to drug company Cialis, 57% of all the Depo Provera supplied to Israel was being given to Ethiopian women, even though they only account for 2% of the population:-
http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/israels-treatment-of-ethiopians-racist
Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #15)
delrem This message was self-deleted by its author.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)birth rate under the average in Israel or the West.
Birth rates are extremely high in African countries because the infant and early childhood mortality rates are high.
50% is meaningless unless you know 50% of what. If the women already had good-sized families and also had health problems, then that is very different from if they didn't.
As I read further articles on this, it appears that the question is not whether they were given this drug, but whether they were fully informed about what it meant to have it.
Exultant Democracy
(6,594 posts)it would also beggar belief that something walking like a duck quacking like a duck and swimming like a duck isn't a duck. This isn't original just disgusting.
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)Stewland
(163 posts)It's possible that the mindset of European Jews is racist. At least becoming aware of racial attitudes presents the possibility of healing prejudiced attitudes and can be seen as a cause for celebration.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)a country in which the infant and early childhood mortality rates were much lower than in Ethiopia. The life expectancy in Israel is much higher than in Ethiopia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Here's some bits you seem to be intent on ignoring:
'Health Ministry Director General Prof. Ron Gamzu has instructed the four health maintenance organizations to stop the practice as a matter of course. The ministry and other state agencies had previously denied knowledge or responsibility for the practice, which was first reported five years ago. Gamzu’s letter instructed “all gynecologists in the HMOs not to renew prescriptions for Depo-Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment.” Gamzu also instructed physicians to avail themselves of translators if need be.'
and
'Gamzu’s letter came in response to a letter from Sharona Eliahu-Chai of the Association of Civil Rights in Israel, representing several women’s rights and Ethiopian immigrants’ groups. The letter demanded the injections cease immediately and that an investigation be launched into the practice.'
I don't know which position would be more morally difficult to stick to. Doing a bit of a defence of eugenics, or pretending that immigrant and women's groups support it...
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)JDP seems content to play dumb...
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)It'd be a real eye-opener for the general DU population to see what gets hidden away down in this group.
Solindsey
(115 posts)...could possibly be racist against anyone who wasn't an Arab. Comical considering their past! WTF? Some of the more disgusting lot were rioting black neighbourhoods quite recently and now we hear about some other racist weirdos interferring with black people having children?
I mean... WTF?
Pirate Smile
(27,617 posts)There’s a lot of ugly and unfortunate news coming out of Israel regarding the country’s treatment of the Ethiopian immigrant community, and on Twitter just now, I provided some context. I’ve decided to sum that up here as well, for those who might not want to read backward, in 140-character chunks.
First, links to the news + some related stories:
-snip-
There are a variety of things going on here, one of which is most certainly racism, but of a kind similar to that experienced by Israel’s Sephardi (Middle Eastern Jewish) community when they arrived, as well. Jewish communities that do not reflect the traditions and history of the dominant Ashkenazi (European, and more broadly, Western) culture have long been treated as (and often literally called) primitive, insufficiently Jewish and/or educated, and in need of sweeping correction. This played a big role in both the HIV testing and discarding of Ethiopian blood, as well as in the placement in religious boarding schools of many young Ethiopians upon their arrival, and I suspect it played a big role in the decision to control women’s fertility without their informed consent.
As regards the conversions and the phasing out of the Ethiopian priesthood, there’s another factor at play: Judaism as a religion is much more defined by community than some other faith systems — there are many prayers and rituals that we simply may not perform, for instance, unless we have a group of at least 10 to perform them. Thus, rules that determine who’s in and who’s out have been important. This is in particular the mark of a minority faith, where maintaining the integrity of the community as against the huge and powerful outside world – much of which has been violently hostile toward the community throughout its history, slaughtering our members in the scores and millions — is a very important safeguard.
The flip side is that we then start turning against each other for not being “enough” of one thing or another. The question of “who gets to decide?” is a very big one, but when it’s raised within discrete communities within Judaism, “who gets to decide” is one thing; when it’s a question of national policy in a modern nation state, it’s another thing entirely.
-snip-
http://emilylhauserinmyhead.wordpress.com/2013/01/27/ethiopian-immigrants-in-israel/
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)there is no justifying this, especially for improving economic conditions Depo is not a benign treatment either the side effects can be awful including constant bleeding, I know
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)ocpagu
(1,954 posts).
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)It seems that Ethiopian women started receiving the shots in 1994, in Jewish Agency-run transit camps where the Joint Distribution Committee was responsible for healthcare. But it’s unclear exactly who came up with the idea of the injections, why, and what explanation and choice (or lack of explanation and lack of choice) was given to the recipients?
What was the plan? Was it a time-limited program to make emigration from Ethiopia and arrival in Israel easier by preventing births during the time of relocation which somebody somewhere extended in to a long-term program?
Or was it a long-term plan from the start — some attempt at population control aimed at African immigrants?
After women started receiving the shots in Ethiopia and then relocated, who facilitated/demanded their continued contraception? Jewish Agency-run absorption centers together with the Immigration and Absorption Ministry are largely responsible for Ethiopian immigrants when they arrive. Did its employees arrange for women to visit gynecologists and continue shots? If not, who?
Read more: http://blogs.forward.com/forward-thinking/170071/did-israel-want-ethiopians-on-birth-control/#ixzz2JJsPfKcr
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)the birth control? Did the women who were given this already have children? How many?
Actually, German women have the lowest birth rate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_birth_rate
Is there some sort of eugenics conspiracy involved in the low birth rate of German women too? Most women, if given the chance, control the size of their families.
Did the Ethiopian women end up with the same numbers of children as the average Israeli family or did they have fewer or more children. There are a lot of unanswered questions.
Is there racism in Israel? Quite possibly. There is everywhere else, so probably there is. But was this due to racism or perhaps some economic problem? And as one article suggests, was this to limit births during the period in which the immigrants were not living in good housing when they first came to Israel? If so, did it continue beyond that time, and if so, then why?
This article is inflammatory and raises more questions than it answers.
This is where I got the statistics on births in Germany compared to other countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_birth_rate
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)1). Invoking German birth rates is irrelevant to the question of what Israel imposed on Ethiopian immigrants to Israel. This is the Chewbacca defense.
2). You then turn around and seek to excuse this eugenics program on the theory that it was motivated by economics, not racism. Well, shit, that's the exact argument made by every 19th century racist and eugenicist.
What's inflammatory is your apologia for this policy.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)article because I don't subscribe. The facts in the articles I read on the rest of the internet are really sketchy.
As I responded in another post, 50% means nothing in and of itself.
My grandmother had 66% of the number of children her mother had. My mother then had the same number of children as her mother. I had 50% of the number of children my mother had. And so far my daughters have 50% of the number of children I had. Meaning that between them they have 25% of the number of children I had.
That does not tell you how many children any of us had. And it is no basis for making a judgment about the meaning of the fact that my daughters have considerably fewer children than my mother, grandmother or great-grandmother.
It doesn't mean anything without some anchor besides a percentage.
I do not approve of forcing women to use birth control. But I do not know the circumstances of the situation. Was this a long-term thing?
delrem
(9,688 posts)DO IT!
You've said too much, it's way way too late for you to attempt some fallback on statistics, on keeping the fucking files in order re. "percentages" etc.
DO IT!
And please, somebody lock this thread!
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)That's fu*ked up, man, fu*ked up.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)DU needs to get fucking blown up and rebuilt from scratch again, because I stopped recognizing this place a long while ago...
shira
(30,109 posts)Considering the Ethiopian population has grown over 300% since the early 90's while the Israeli population has grown about 60% (each until 2009), the accusations in this article appear to be very questionable.
The Ethiopian population growth is 5x that of Israel's since the early 90's.
==========
*corrected
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Is there anything that's done by the Israeli government that you don't rush in to embrace wholeheartedly? It's disgusting that I'm having to read one or two desperately using racist arguments to justify what the Israeli govt did, and in yr case even trying to deny that the Israeli govt has acknowledged they did it...
shira
(30,109 posts)Do some research and you'll find Depo-Provera is the #1 choice among women in Ethiopia for birth control.
Neither the Israeli govt or any staff member involved w/ Depo-Provera has acknowledged imposing DP on women w/o their consent.
This allegation of racism is as bogus as the organ stealing one.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)For fuck's sake, try getting someone to read the article to you if you can't or won't.
No-one's fucking interested in yr squirming around trying to redefine the word 'consent' into something where it's okay to do stuff to women without their consent...
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Not Ethiopians living inEthiopia. Israelis of Ethiopian heritage.
But I'm sure the practice of imposing birth control on them had nothing to do with this. And, even if it did, it's totally not racist, right?
shira
(30,109 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Health Ministry Director General Prof. Ron Gamzu has instructed the four health maintenance organizations to stop the practice as a matter of course. The ministry and other state agencies had previously denied knowledge or responsibility for the practice, which was first reported five years ago. Gamzu’s letter instructed “all gynecologists in the HMOs not to renew prescriptions for Depo-Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment.” Gamzu also instructed physicians to avail themselves of translators if need be.
shira
(30,109 posts)Are you aware...
1. Almost half the Israeli population (not Ethiopian) uses DP for birth control?
2. DP is the #1 birth control method in Ethiopia?
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)I don't give a fuck if half the Israeli population uses it. If it's being imposed on anyone without their informed consent, it's wrong...
It's disgusting to the extreme that yr supporting that...
shira
(30,109 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Burying yr head in the sand is a lame thing to do. Also, for someone who defies facts and insists Israel hasn't imposed bc on women without their consent, you seem to be spending a lot of time insisting that it's not really that bad a thing...
shira
(30,109 posts)Health Ministry Director General Prof. Ron Gamzu has instructed the four health maintenance organizations to stop the practice as a matter of course. The ministry and other state agencies had previously denied knowledge or responsibility for the practice, which was first reported five years ago. Gamzu’s letter instructed “all gynecologists in the HMOs not to renew prescriptions for Depo-Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment.” Gamzu also instructed physicians to avail themselves of translators if need be.
Nothing there about forcing or coercing.
The very fact you're seeing this as admittance that Israel forced or coerced goes to show how irresponsible & misleading some media outlets and ngo's are.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)You are. Yr also failing to understand what coercing is.
So, yet again I'll ask. Are you calling those Ethiopian women liars? Coz it sure looks like it and that's a disgusting anti-woman stance to hold on a LW forum like DU..
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)There's no wishy-washy 'quite possibly' about it. Of course there's racism in Israel, and if you took the time to read up on issues to do with Israel, you'd see that it's quite nasty and widespread..
Urgh....
oberliner
(58,724 posts)It's certainly less than that of most of its neighbors. And definitely less than most of Europe, Africa, and Asia. Probably about on par with the US and Canada.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Would you be perfectly all right with this being done to you or your daughters?? Because it seems like you would based on your arguments, and if that is true, then you're on the wrong site
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)It's clearly what you're best at...
Perhaps you just need to save face and back out of this thread, since you "don't know enough information..."
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)How could any parent allow something like this happen to their child...ever unless they are completely callous and without feeling?
But you are at the ready to write this.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=29698
I guess that some people are armchair experts at some things and not at others.
shira
(30,109 posts)Here are 3 different agencies on 2 continents denying the charges...
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/why-is-the-birth-rate-in-israel-s-ethiopian-community-declining.premium-1.483494
In its response to "Vacuum," the Health Ministry said it did not "recommend or try to encourage the use of Depo Provera, and that if these injections were used it was against our position. The Health Ministry provides individual family counseling in the framework of its well baby clincs and this advice is also provided by the physicians of the health maintenance organizations."
The Jewish Agency, which is responsible for Jewish immigration from abroad, said in response that it takes a harsh view of any effort to interfere in the family planning processes of Ethiopian immigrants, adding that "while the JA has never held family planning workshops for this group in Ethiopia or at immigrant absorption centers in Israel, the immigrant transit camp in Gondar, as the investigation noted, was previously operated by other agencies."
No verification from higher-ups.
This kind of conspiracy takes an extraordinary level of collusion in order to deny the charges.
Consider that...
a) Depo-Provera is reversible
b) It lasts only 3 months
c) The Ethiopian birthrate is 5x that of the general Israeli population
That's one big massive FAIL if Israeli agencies are trying their damndest to sterilize Ethiopian women.
More from a recent email:
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2012/12/jdcs-ethiopia-medical-director-denies-forced-sterilization-234.html
"So to be clear, you're saying that you personally never told any woman that she would have to take Depo-Provera shots in order to immigrate to Israel? The women claim that JDC workers from Israel told them they had to do it. Is that claim to the best of your knowledge false?"
Dr. Hodes replied:
To the best of my knowledge, this claim is 100% false.
Neither myself nor my staff have ever told any women in our program that they should take Depo-Provera for any reason. 100% of Depo-Provera shots are purely voluntary, and may be discontinued (or changed to another method) at any time.
In fact, we don't have JDC workers from Israel come and tell women
these things.
Here's why we might be seeing these allegations from some Ethiopian women:
https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/4989/1/rh05036.pdf
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)How high up is the director of the health ministry, who admitted to it??
Is the health ministry in the habit of surreptitiously giving the injection to all women? or just ones of a certain color?
And my earlier point still stands: Anyone defending this needs to state here and now they are OK with this being done to themselves and/or loved ones...
shira
(30,109 posts)If you're keeping up, the injection is given to any woman who wants 3 months of birth control in one shot.
No one's defending the outrageously false accusation that Israel wants to sterilize Ethiopian women.
I'd have anyone in my family volunteering for this reversible 3 month birth control injection. That's all that's happening WRT Ethiopian women.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)1. Health Ministry Director General Prof. Ron Gamzu acknowledged the practice — without directly conceding coercion was involved — in a letter to Israeli health maintenance organizations, instructing gynecologists in the HMOs “not to renew prescriptions for Depo-Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment.”
http://www.salon.com/2013/01/28/israel_admits_ethiopian_jewish_immigrants_were_given_birth_control_shots/
You see, the thing of it is, national governments typically don't give statements or revise policies for "unverified claims"...
2. So why were they given a shot they supposedly never asked for (and supposedly with no explanation of what it truly was)?? AND why was their usage rate so much higher than other demographic groups in Israel??
3. "No one is defending this?" Your girl JDPriestly among others has been single-handedly defending this in three different threads....
Which leads me to #4...If we all agree that giving secret birth-control injections to immigrants of a non-native ethnic group is wrong, then why am I the only DUer upset about it??
shira
(30,109 posts)No one, from staff to higher-ups has confirmed allegations this was coerced. In fact, the opposite has happened as they're all calling shenanigans.
If you read my last post to you, you'd find women volunteering for this.
You're upset about a false accusation.
Read the last paragraph from my first response to you to find why some Ethiopian women would want the injection and NOT want their husbands to know about it.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)You keep saying this accusation is "false", but for some reason it *just* keeps cropping up in various sources...
http://forward.com/articles/167502/were-ethiopian-women-forced-into-contraception/
The absence of an official, mea culpa admission from the higher-ups doesn't mean innocence or plausible deniability (their little feeble, explain-it-away-but-admit-to-nothing act tells me all I need to know)-- The U.S. for instance covered up/explained away ethically questionable medical acts for decades...
But hey, I get your point...Israel is above reproach or criticism, you'll happily believe any bullshit excuse or sidestepping of responsibility because that is what you want to believe, they said it wouldn't happen again so you're satisfied that the matter is closed, and besides... The tiny handful of women who stepped forward weren't "real" jews, were they; so who cares?? Besides, have you seen the population statistics of those people? They breed like fucking fruit flies! So what's wrong with the nation looking after its own self-interest??
shira
(30,109 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)even when the facts are piled against them, and more importantly even when they suck at it.
Most see through this song and dance shtick after a few conversations.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)will bring out people advocating similar disgusting positions about "controlling" the amount that other people should be "allowed to breed".
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)while the number of users during 2008 was 4833- a 286% increase.
* Among the mentioned 4833 cases, 2759 (57%) were women of Ethiopian origin,
although there were 10 different ethnicity groups checked and that the percentage of
Ethiopian women of the total women population in Israel is much lower than 57%.
Therefore, we can see that, according to General HMO data, there is a clear tendency
to prescribe Depo Provera injections to women of African origin. In other words, in
the demographic structure of Israel, Depo Provera is given mainly to women of
Ethiopian origin.
The General HMO is the largest HMO and accounts for 54% of the Israeli population. Extrapolating from this data, and using the demographics supplied here http://www.cbs.gov.il/www/publications/ethiopion_population/pdf/h_print.pdf
you have 5109 Ethiopian women being administered Depo Provera, which works out to be just under 20% of Ethiopian women in Israel of child bearing age.
This is compared with 0.2% of non-Ethiopian women of child bearing age receiving Depo Provera.
As per page 15 and 22 of the above link http://www.cbs.gov.il/www/publications/ethiopion_population/pdf/h_print.pdf
Ethiopian fertility overall dropped from 4.1 to 3.9 births per woman from 1996 to 1999. It has dropped 20% in the last ten years, meaning that it is currently on par with the overall fertility rate of 3.0.
I am not sure however, whether this has been adjusted for births that occurred prior to Ethiopian women migrating to Israel, which would bump things up somewhat. If so, then it would be a very striking, rapid and sustained decrease in fertility.
The first study above contains a number of interviews with Ethiopian women, many of whom were outwardly willing to take Depo Provera, although many others stated that they were not informed of any alternatives.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)That Israel should allegedly engage in this activity is particularly shocking, considering the practice was widely used by the Germans throughout the Shoah. While the scale and effects of these operations cannot be compared, Israel’s implicit intent to limit ‘burdensome’ (read: undesirable) portions of the population recalls the dark eugenics experiments of World War II.
Immigration, legal and otherwise, is a difficult and invariably sticky issue for developed nations. Israel, like the United States, has struggled to find a way to secure its borders and its population while dealing with a constant stream of immigrants from neighboring countries and, increasingly, the African continent. While admitting the difficult security issues that Israel faces, the international community must loudly and unanimously rebuke the systematic violations of human rights inflicted on women immigrants of African origin.
From a sociological perspective, this incident shows the strain between Israel’s religious heritage and its modern political agenda. “Behold, the heritage of the Lord is sons, the reward is the fruit of the innards. Like arrows in the hand of a mighty man, so are the sons of one’s youth. Praiseworthy is the man who has filled his quiver with them,” the Torah proclaims. The involuntary sterilization of African immigrants suggests that the Jewish moral code (inextricably connected with Israel’s domestic legal codes) can be selectively applied to those with ‘desirable’ backgrounds. It is hard, indeed almost impossible to believe that an American Jewish woman immigrating to Israel would be forced to take birth control.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseknutsen/2013/01/28/israel-foribly-injected-african-immigrant-women-with-birth-control/
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Funny how many respected news organizations are all in on this "conspiracy of anti-Israel propaganda"...
The list seems to be growing by the hour...
shira
(30,109 posts)Here's why:
1. Three different agencies on 2 continents deny the charges...
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/why-is-the-birth-rate-in-israel-s-ethiopian-community-declining.premium-1.483494
In its response to "Vacuum," the Health Ministry said it did not "recommend or try to encourage the use of Depo Provera, and that if these injections were used it was against our position. The Health Ministry provides individual family counseling in the framework of its well baby clincs and this advice is also provided by the physicians of the health maintenance organizations."
The Jewish Agency, which is responsible for Jewish immigration from abroad, said in response that it takes a harsh view of any effort to interfere in the family planning processes of Ethiopian immigrants, adding that "while the JA has never held family planning workshops for this group in Ethiopia or at immigrant absorption centers in Israel, the immigrant transit camp in Gondar, as the investigation noted, was previously operated by other agencies."
The reporters didn't even try to verify from any Israelis associated with the Ethiopian health program.
The reporters didn't mention simple facts...
a) Depo-Provera is reversible
b) It lasts only 3 months
c) The Ethiopian birthrate is 5x that of the general Israeli population over the last 20 years
If this was responsible journalism, we wouldn't have to rely on bloggers to interview Israelis for confirmation:
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2012/12/jdcs-ethiopia-medical-director-denies-forced-sterilization-234.html
"So to be clear, you're saying that you personally never told any woman that she would have to take Depo-Provera shots in order to immigrate to Israel? The women claim that JDC workers from Israel told them they had to do it. Is that claim to the best of your knowledge false?"
Dr. Hodes replied:
To the best of my knowledge, this claim is 100% false.
Neither myself nor my staff have ever told any women in our program that they should take Depo-Provera for any reason. 100% of Depo-Provera shots are purely voluntary, and may be discontinued (or changed to another method) at any time.
In fact, we don't have JDC workers from Israel come and tell women
these things.
Responsible journalists would include the following about allegations from some Ethiopian women:
https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/4989/1/rh05036.pdf
This isn't just irresponsible journalism.
It's propaganda.
You're a liar. Its not even faintly close to that.
shira
(30,109 posts)...increased from 35000 to 130000, an increase of over 300%.
During the same time the Israeli population went from 4.8M to 7.6M, an increase of about 60%.
Do the research yourself and report back if you don't believe me.
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)...in regard to the Ethiopian population increase in Israel, not birthrates.
If you truly believe your claim then please provide a link to support your numbers.
TYY
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)There is a game afoot, and it is known as smoke and mirrors.
shira
(30,109 posts)Israel has had its immigrants as well (like over 1M from the former Soviet Union) during the timeframe.
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)...that the Ethiopian birthrate is 5x that of the general population of Israel:
…and then followed up with the following "statistics" to support your claim:
...increased from 35000 to 130000, an increase of over 300%.
During the same time the Israeli population went from 4.8M to 7.6M, an increase of about 60%.
Do the research yourself and report back if you don't believe me.
Now you're saying that you weren't referring to birthrates even though you were?…
You should probably edit post 83 to reflect your new found intent and provide a link to your "statistics" while you're at it.
TYY
shira
(30,109 posts)Response to shira (Reply #83)
Post removed
shira
(30,109 posts)Number of Ethiopians in 1990 vs. number of Israelis in 1990...... until 2009.
I wasn't looking at fertility rates.
The article is horseshit and I know you know it.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)You're a liar.
This from your post, less than two hours ago:-
That is a lie, motivated by racism.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)That's not lying, but I confused the two.
It wasn't intentional.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)That's why the OP says "The ministry and other state agencies had previously denied knowledge or responsibility for the practice". They're now admitting it was happening.
a) Depo-Provera is reversible
b) It lasts only 3 months
It says it was given to them every 3 months. That's because it's a reversible contraceptive that lasts 3 months. The report was clear on the action of Depo-Provera, even if you couldn't work it out yourself.
I suggest you delete that, because it is an attempt to justify the forced contraception with a racist argument. Surely you don't want to be on the record as as a racist, do you? It doesn't matter what the birthrate in a country is; this is about forced contraception.
shira
(30,109 posts)I'm wrong about the birthrate, admittedly.
I was comparing population figures, just pure numbers, from 1990-2009.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)From the article
'According to the program, while the women were still in transit camps in Ethiopia they were sometimes intimidated or threatened into taking the injection. “They told us they are inoculations,” said one of the women interviewed. “They told us people who frequently give birth suffer. We took it every three months. We said we didn’t want to.”
Also from the article for what seems like the hundredth time in response to what I believe to be not very honest claims that no Israeli has admitted to the practice. Maybe this time you'll realise how bad this is making you look and you'll remember yr on a LW forum where defence of this sort of thing is not taken kindly to...
'Health Ministry Director General Prof. Ron Gamzu has instructed the four health maintenance organizations to stop the practice as a matter of course. The ministry and other state agencies had previously denied knowledge or responsibility for the practice, which was first reported five years ago. Gamzu’s letter instructed “all gynecologists in the HMOs not to renew prescriptions for Depo-Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment.” Gamzu also instructed physicians to avail themselves of translators if need be.'
shira
(30,109 posts)I previously linked to this...
Because contraceptives may introduce social discord, leading at times to intimate partners’ violence amongst African couples, women of low bargaining powers often resort to family planning methods that are suitable to covert use.30-31 Women can take injections of depo-provera while visiting a health facility and remain protected against unwanted pregnancies for three months. This may be done without their husband’s knowledge and without the bother of having to remember to take the pill or to undergo clinical procedures that are involved when opting for implants or intrauterine devices. Consequently, a general pattern that has been observed in the contraceptive method mix in sub-Saharan Africa and elsewhere in the developing world is the predominance of injectables.32-34 The Ethiopian DHS data analysed here indicate clearly that the ratio of pill users to injectable users is 1:1.2 nationally, while the corresponding ratio is 1:2 for CBRHS areas, according to the CPS results (Figure 1).
What do you get from that, other than some Ethiopian women fear letting their husbands know they're on birth control?
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)I'd believe them over something like you anyday...
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)Ethiopian women who moved to Israel eight years ago claimed Israeli officials coerced them to receive injections of Depo-Provera, a long-acting birth control drug, as a prerequisite to immigration.
Speaking to reporters on an episode of Israel Educational Television’s investigative show “Vacuum” that aired on Saturday, several immigrants described the intense pressure placed on them to keep their families small. The women claimed Israeli representatives from the Joint Distribution Committee (JDC) and the Health Ministry told them that raising large families is especially difficult, that it is for hard people with many children to find work and support their families, and that many landlords would not be willing to rent apartments to large families.
<snip>
A hidden camera in a local health clinic recorded a Ethiopian woman being told by a nurse that this shot is given “primarily to Ethiopian women because they forget, they don’t understand, and it’s hard to explain to them, so it’s best that they receive a shot once every three months… basically they don’t understand anything.”
Israeli authorities denied all of the allegations. However, Gabbai revealed an official letter that she uncovered from the Health Ministry to Dr. Rick Hodes, the director of the JDC Medical Programs in Ethiopia. The letter praised the doctor’s work, noting that whereas fewer than 5% of Ethiopians use any form of birth control, Hodes achieved a rate of 30% among the patients he treated.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/ethiopian-women-claim-israel-forced-them-to-use-birth-control-before-letting-them-immigrate/
TYY
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)That there's people in this thread so invested in arguing (in one case) a mixture of 1. IT NEVER HAPPENED! THEY"RE ALL LIARS! and 2. So? It's merely birth control and their husbands would be mad if they knew they were on it! is mind boggling...
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)...which, among other things, shows that Ethiopians don't traditionally use (fewer than 5%) birth control of any kind.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/ethiopian-women-claim-israel-forced-them-to-use-birth-control-before-letting-them-immigrate/
TYY
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)Apologists for the Jewish state might have responded in one or two ways: to argue that the demonstrators are marginal (even though the included a member of the Knesset), or that even if their actions are ill-conceived, these Israelis are driven by the desire to protect Israel’s Jewish identity.
What the government policy designed to limit the size of Israel’s Ethiopian population makes indisputable is that racism is institutionally based in the workings of the state.
http://warincontext.org/2013/01/27/israeli-eugenics-program-halted/
TYY
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)It's not racism. It's merely 'mistakes' and whatever the cause of those mistakes it's not racism. I'd do a sighing icon here, but the backflips and euphemisms being hidden behind would just result in a little head exploding icon ...
----------------------------------------------------------------
Israel also isn't racist towards Ethiopians...
ADL: Ethiopian Controversy In Israel: It's Not Racism
http://archive.adl.org/presrele/IslME_62/2659_62.asp
Whatever Israel's mistakes towards its Ethiopian Jewish community, the cause is not racism. Support for the African immigrants, as measured by public opinion and government investment, is strong. Government assistance is much greater than for other immigrant groups. And reports of social discrimination are rare in a country with little experience in black-white relations.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=29828
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)Post #135 is the reason I posted the vid.
TYY
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)that this happened at all or some of the comments here justifying this action
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)It should be a women's right to take or not to take birth control. It is, in my book, as bad as those that try to block women from abortions. It is the woman in question's choice. Not the state, any state!
