Abbas aide: No plans to outlaw 'honor killing'

[azurnoir]

The Palestinian Legislative Council has not met since 2007, when Hamas and Fatah split, but women's rights expert Soraida Hussein dismisses arguments that reforms must wait until parliament reconvenes.

"For us, for women, all this is irrelevant," said Hussein, general director of the Women's Technical Affairs Committee, an umbrella group of women’s organizations. "Until now, our lives -- in law and in practice -- are seen as less than men's."

The president should issue a decree that "anybody killing anyone else will be sentenced to the highest sentence possible, whether it is a woman or a boy," says Hussein.

"The minute the law is changed and applied, the minute people will think twice," she says. "It's simple and it's not done."

Hussein suggests Abbas is hesitant to pass legal reforms because "he is not ready yet to confront conservative forces."

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=550792

[Turbineguy]

1. "... not ready yet to confront conservative forces."

We know what you mean, Sir. We're trying to introduce civilization in the United States too.

[shira]

7. Abbas is a conservative force in favor of sharia law, et al. n/t

[azurnoir]

11. I think here that is code for Hamas n/t

[LeftishBrit]

2. 'Conservative' and 'anti-women' often seem to have similar meanings

There is an International Campaign Against Honour Killings - the website is currently undergoing maintenance but should be back soon.

http://stophonourkillings.com/

[azurnoir]

3. Thank you for the link

and it is a sad state of affairs in not just the West Bank but any where these types of killing take place, which is just about everywhere albeit they are not always called honor killings

[King_David]

12. Where else do they take place and what are they called? nt

[azurnoir]

13. already answered down thread n/t

[shaayecanaan]

4. Jordanian law is identical to (most) Australian laws...

British laws and American laws in this regard.

In most common-law jurisdictions, a defence of provocation is available to a man charged with murder after finding his wife in bed with another man (or indeed a woman who kills her husband after finding him in bed with another woman). This has the effect of reducing the charge to one of manslaughter, and results in a lesser sentence.

It is surprising that this simple fact is not pointed out more, given the extensive treatment that honour killings receive in the Western press.

[oberliner]

5. Do you not know what an honor killing is?

Hint: it's not a man murdering his wife after finding her in bed with another man.

[azurnoir]

10. Do you know what honor killing is?

it is a domestic killing man killing women it happens in every society but when one is a Muslim it is given a special name

[King_David]

14. Oh is see every society right?

It has fuck all with a man killing his wife... It could be a wife a sister a daughter ... For "honor".
Eg if a women is raped the women would of brought dishonor to the family and her father,husband,brother,uncle will kill her to restore family honor.

It does not apply to every society and culture. Please do not attempt to minimize this most heinous crime.

Read about a story that happened in Canada :

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/mobileweb/2012/01/29/shafia-trial-verdict-honour-killing-guilty_n_1228859.html

[azurnoir]

15. thank you for your reply I see according to you only Muslims

kill their wives, daughters, sisters,?

[King_David]

17. In whats called an honor killing ? nt

[azurnoir]

18. quite frankly many killings of females by framily members could be called honor killings

remember in the '90's when 'bride burning' in India was the outrage it lasted for a while and then you no longer hears about it, but it has not stopped happening, that is also IMO a form of honor killing, I've heard of Asian women specifically Korean being killed for having a relationship or even more a child by an American serviceman also hon or killing but it doesn't get called that

[King_David]

19. There's a concerted effort

to minimize this barbaric crime... It's not and never will be even mildly acceptable nor understandable.
It's the epitome of barbarism.
Hanging Gays, killing Women is as base and low as a society could ever go.

[azurnoir]

20. well not quite IMO as low killing children is even lower IMO

as children are most vulnerable and defenseless IMO, all of it is detestable and should be ended

[King_David]

23. Yes that is true. nt

[azurnoir]

24. glad we can agree at least on that

[zellie]

35. Agree.

nt

[oberliner]

21. You are wrong again

It is not a "domestic killing man killing women" and it definitely doesn't happen in every society.

If a young teenage girl was raped in the United States and was then killed by, let's say, her uncle, for shaming the family, that would be a scandal of the highest order.

And rightfully so.

[azurnoir]

22. yes it would be a scandal

but IMO there is a chance that a lawyer could get reduced charges by claiming mental stress on the part of the uncle, depending in what area of the country this occurred in and the circumstances under which it occurred

[oberliner]

25. Can you provide an example?

What case are you basing this belief on?

[azurnoir]

27. I am basing that on conservative values areas of the country

but if you think red state areas are treating women well that is your perogative

[azurnoir]

28. more over here is an example from India

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014349508

she was leaving a Diwali festival

[Raksha]

36. In the U.S. the girl's father or brother would be more likely to track down and kill the rapist.

That's an example of vigilante justice and I'm not condoning it, but at least it's understandable. I don't think they'd be as likely to kill the girl as in an Isllamic country or in India.

[cali]

29. that's just absurd and Orwellian

It is not merely a domestic killing that has its equivalent in every society. The phrase honor killing has a specific meaning and history.

An honor killing, or honour killing[1] is the homicide of a member of a family or social group by other members, due to the belief of the perpetrators that the victim has brought dishonor upon the family or community.

The perceived dishonor is normally the result of one of the following behaviors, or the suspicion of such behaviors: dressing in a manner unacceptable to the family or community, wanting to terminate or prevent an arranged marriage or desiring to marry by own choice, especially if to a member of a social group deemed inappropriate, engaging in heterosexual acts outside marriage and engaging in homosexual acts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

As Daniel Moynihan said: You're entitled to your own opinion but not your own "facts".

[azurnoir]

30. yes it does have a very specific history your right

it is a dog whistle of sorts to Islamiphobes everywhere as if done by a member of any other religion it is merely murder no matter what the reasoning

[cali]

32. once again, honey, you're entitled to your own opinion but not your

own facts. But you will never grasp that.

[azurnoir]

33. fact is honor killing is murder period

you see calling it what it is could go a ways towards change but maybe there are some on both sides that prefer things the way they are? Why would you rather keep it to honor killing as it seems, rather than call it what it is, some reason?

and really why do find calling people honey dearie ect so necessary it seems you can not merely discuss without that type of stuff some of us find that grating and perhaps nasty

[King_David]

9. "Honor " killings have nothing to do with adultery

In Canada you get life , for 1st degree murder..

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/mobileweb/2012/01/29/shafia-trial-verdict-honour-killing-guilty_n_1228859.html

"Honor "killings are pure barbarism .

[zellie]

34. There are very few studies but the best I found was this

Worldwide Trends in Honor Killings


In general, statistically significant interactions were found for age, geographical region, the participation of multiple perpetrators (mainly members of the victim's family of origin, including the victim's father), family position, multiple victims, the use of torture, and the stated motive for the murder. Between 1989 and 2009, honor killings also escalated over time in a statistically significant way.

Worldwide, the majority of victims were women; a mere 7 percent were men. Only five men were killed by their families of origin whereas the rest of the male victims were killed by the families of the women with whom they were allegedly consorting or planning to consort with either within or outside of marriage. The murdered male victims were usually perceived as men who were unacceptable due to lower class or caste status, because the marriage had not been arranged by the woman's family of origin, because they were not the woman's first cousin, or because the men allegedly engaged in pre- or extramarital sex. Men were rarely killed when they were alone; 81 percent were killed when the couple in question was together.

Although Sikhs and Hindus do sometimes commit such murders, honor killings, both worldwide and in the West, are mainly Muslim-on-Muslim crimes. In this study, worldwide, 91 percent of perpetrators were Muslims. In North America, most killers (84 percent) were Muslims, with only a few Sikhs and even fewer Hindus perpetrating honor killings; in Europe, Muslims comprised an even larger majority at 96 percent while Sikhs were a tiny percentage. In Muslim countries, obviously almost all the perpetrators were Muslims. With only two exceptions, the victims were all members of the same religious group as their murderers.

In the West, 76 individuals or groups of multiple perpetrators killed one hundred people. Of these perpetrators, 37 percent came from Pakistan; 17 percent were of Iraqi origin while Turks and Afghans made up 12 and 11 percent, respectively. The remainder, just under a quarter in all, came from Albania, Algeria, Bosnia, Egypt, Ethiopia, Guyana, India, Iran, Morocco, and the West Bank


http://www.meforum.org/2646/worldwide-trends-in-honor-killings#_ftn6

multiple tables that i dont begin to understand

[Violet_Crumble]

37. Urgh. Yr citing a RW extremist like Chesler as a reputable source?

You need to be a bit more fussy about the sources you look to. Some of them are from people with a frenzied hatred of Muslims, and they try to appeal to those who share their desire to demonise Muslims and only Muslims...

[zellie]

39. I'm sorry

Could you find a study that meets your requirements?

I've looked and maybe you can find one you like better.

[Violet_Crumble]

40. So you don't have any problem at all with citing RW anti-Muslim extremists?

I just want to make sure I'm reading you correctly here because you seem to have taken issue with me pointing out something that would cause most liberals to pause and consider not using such extremist crap. I see yr new to DU, but to give you an example of using stinky sources, someone at DU repeatedly posted links to Atlas Shrugs as a source for some anti-Muslim bigotry they were posting. They didn't seem to think there was a problem with their source, but admin sure did and nuked them...

Another thing - that site you linked to is run by Daniel Pipes. Using that sort of ugly crap as a source isn't a good thing to do. Have you tried searching for something that's not by RW hardliner types who hate Muslims and Arabs?

[zellie]

41. If you find it unacceptable , ok.

I've looked and and can't find any other study of this.

If you have other studies I would like to read them.

[Violet_Crumble]

42. No, I want to know why you wouldn't have a problem with using stinky anti-Muslim sources...

Saying 'if you find it unacceptable' makes it very clear that you yrself do find it acceptable, and that sort of attitude stinks, imo

I'm sure you would have massive issues with a source if it was antisemitic, so why not with this?

Or don't you realise what a bigot Chesler is?

Here's some info that should make anyone but the most devoted Islamophobe see how bad Chesler is. The fact that the English Defence League are among her supporters speaks volumes...

Phyllis Chesler opposes Jewish-Muslim stand against European far right

Nobody outside of the far-right organisations being condemned here could object to that, you might think. You'd be wrong. Over at FrontPage Magazine Phyllis Chesler, the self-proclaimed "founding voice of the modern feminist movement", writes:

"Why is a group of Jews trying to help Muslims ... by appealing to European governments not to 'pander to right wing forces' which are, belatedly, beginning to gather in response to a Muslim population which is hostile to Western and European values, does not wish to assimilate, and is both separatist and violent?

"Had Muslims come in total peace these 'right wing forces' may have, indeed, been a reflection of European racism towards Arabs and dark-skinned 'Easterners'. But the alleged 'Islamophobia' is not based on bigoted considerations of color, faith, or ethnicity; it is, rather, based on the increasing danger that Muslims pose to the stability and character of Europe."

http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/islamophobia-watch/2011/5/31/phyllis-chesler-opposes-jewish-muslim-stand-against-european.html

[zellie]

43. I didn't research this site.

Thanks anyway.

[Violet_Crumble]

45. No worries. I posted a bit more below about them that you might be interested in n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

44. Here's something for you to read on the fixation of Islamophobes like Chesler with honour killings..

Honor Killings: The Epidemic that Isn’t

My previous article describes how anti-Muslim bigots use young Muslim murder victims as props in their campaign of hate. Sensational headlines, haunting photographs, and lurid tales of cold blooded murder are indispensable tools in their campaign to vilify Islam. This campaign is bolstered by a set of core themes that are reinforced through tireless repetition.

Islamophobes portray honor killings as a special kind of evil that is unique to Islam, and greatly exaggerate the prevalence of these crimes. Atlas Shrugs, Jihad Watch, and Frontpage Magazine rarely miss an opportunity use the phrase “Islamic honor killing,” which has joined “creeping sharia” and “stealth jihad” in an endless parade of misleading slogans and catchphrases. All of these themes converge in paranoid conspiracy theories about Muslims taking over and imposing barbarism in the Western world.

<snip>

The United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) estimates there are 5,000 murders classified as honor killings each year worldwide, and they are not all perpetrated by Muslims. To put that into perspective, consider that the World Health Organization says there are over half a million annual homicides in the world. Using basic math, we can conclude that honor killings make up less than 1% of all murders.

If 1% of the world’s Muslims perpetrated an honor crime each year, we could project at least 1 million incidents. The number is far lower, and leaves 99.99% of the Muslim population innocent of this crime. Why should all Muslims be indicted for the actions of a negligible minority?

Pamela Geller says, “over 90% of honor killings worldwide are Islamic,” and Robert Spencer quotes the exact figure at 91%. Chesler quotes the same estimate of 5,000 annual honor killings worldwide, but she says the true number is “much greater.” “Definitive or reliable worldwide estimates of honor killing incidence do not exist,” she concedes, yet she is somehow certain the the number is much greater. Spencer links to an article on the Middle East Forum as the source of this statistic. This is an anti-Muslim propaganda site founded by Daniel Pipes, and the articlethere is authored by Phyllis Chesler, who is yet another rabid Islamophobe.

http://www.islamophobiatoday.com/2011/09/29/honor-killings-the-epidemic-that-isn%e2%80%99t/

Oh, and here's a pic from the article of Chesler with her stablemate Pam Geller. Not only are these people RW extremists, but they're Muslim-hating bigots as well. Now can you see the problem with pointing to anything by any of them to bolster an argument yr trying to make?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

6. There is no honor in murder of any kind.

In 2009, Abbas ratified the UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, but al-Ouri, the legal adviser, says it will only be implemented "so long as it doesn’t contravene Islamic code."


How could anybody kill a family member?

[zellie]

8. Wow....just wow.

Honor killing is so Neanderthal and sick that it pisses me off their is still debate about it.

People who engage in honor killing are sick. These people are animals.

[azurnoir]

16. It is disappointing and by no means understandable that Abbas would take this stance

to not make 'honor killing' the same as any other murder is shameful and will not help the Palestinians gain their own country

[Violet_Crumble]

38. How will it not help?

I'm not seeing how the two are connected in any way...

[azurnoir]

46. yes in both a real politik sense and an idealogical manner it does matter

albeit they are not connected in a legal sense

[Violet_Crumble]

47. That translates to mean 'we in the West are looking for any reason to not give you a state'

And the people who hold that sort of view have a long, long list of things they place as obstacles to statehood that they turn a blind eye to if done elsewhere in the world, because generally they don't give a shit about women's rights or other human rights except if they can use it to criticise Palestinians...

I'm regularly not surprised about the appalling attitude towards women that sees the light of day, but linking that with statehood claims are very wrong, imo...

[azurnoir]

48. yes but there it is and there is a contingent in the US that is doing just that

don't know if it is as strong anywhere else in the West as it is here in the US

[Scootaloo]

26. I wonder how long mr. al-Ouri will keep his job?

"Why change it? This would cause serious problems," Hassan al-Ouri told Ma'an, adding that such a reform would "not benefit women."

Dumbass