Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumIsraeli rabbis warn: Yule be in trouble if you put up
Christmas trees
Corny Headline.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israeli-rabbis-warn-yule-be-in-trouble-if-you-put-up-christmas-trees.premium-1.489490?localLinksEnabled=false
The Chief Rabbinate said Sunday that municipal chief rabbis had rescinded kashrut certificates from businesses with Christmas trees because: "according to Jewish law, Jews may not be in a place where idol worship is taking place."
Christmas trees lost any idol status after the church had assimilated the pagan European peoples into their religion a long long time ago.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)On the streets of Jerusalem, the religious war on Christmas is on. Last week, the "Lobby for Jewish Values" started handing out fliers condemning the holiday and inciting the public to boycott restaurants and hotels that sell or put up Christmas trees and other "foolish" Christian symbols.
Backed by rabbis, and with the self-righteous air of the American Christian right, lobby chairman Ofer Cohen told the Israeli media that he had considered publishing a list of businesses bold enough to put up Christmas decorations, call for a boycott against them, and - with a little help from Jerusalem Rabbinate - revoke the kashrut certificates of said hotels and restaurants.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/rabbis-versus-christmas-religious-rivalry-in-jerusalem-benefits-no-one-1.1917
I guess being nonreligious x-mas trees have never struck me as a religious symbol well unless you decorated them with little moons suns and 5 pointed stars point up of course
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)No matter the religion involved, they're invariably stupid.
shira
(30,109 posts)On the occasion of the Christmas holiday season, the Municipality of Jerusalem will be distributing free trees to the residents of the city who celebrate Christmas.
The tree distribution will take place on Wednesday 23/12/2013 at the Jaffa Gate square, starting from 9:00.
The Jerusalem municipality wishes season's greetings and a very merry Christmas to all Christian residents of Jerusalem.
http://www.jerusalem.muni.il/jer_main/TopSiteJerueng.asp?newstr=2&src=/jer_sys/muni/messages/item_news_en.asp?msg_id=11783+cat=37+sec_id=77&cont=1288
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but the thread isn't about giving presumably private residents x-mas trees it's about Rabbi's who have jurisdiction over public establishments in this case restaurants licensing, which is different altogether
King_David
(14,851 posts)This should of been posted in the Jewish Group where it would of sunk because we all mainly secular Jews here on DU.
Strange that in IP everyone's interested in Halachic Jewish Orthodoxy.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)Just curious. What is the point of identifying as a "secular Jew"?
From my POV, I was baptized Roman Catholic, I went through the rituals and education, but I lapsed long, long ago. Although I respect my RC family and the RC tradition, the notion "secular RC" doesn't occur to me. I'd rather e.g. argue the reasons why I think Augustine and Aquinas ought not be considered "saints" - and avoid discussions of "God". For me, the learning curve has moved on. So much for religion.
I have mixed ancestry going back to two areas of Europe. There's a sense in which I identify with that ancestry since of course it has informed my upbringing (e.g. the RC connection...), it determines the language I speak and the foods that I eat, but this identification is totally dwarfed by the identification I have with a multicultural Canada. My family traditions tend to go back to those of the 17th century Quebecois, transplanted as they moved west. When I'm invited to a new year's feast, at one I might be entertained by Swedes, at another by Cantonese, and so on. These are *all* part of the rich and ever changing culture of being Canadian. I love it.
But Canada isn't alone in this.
I suppose that within Sweden the ever changing culture continuously invents new traditions, re-invents old ones, and incorporates traditions borrowed from other cultures. Likewise in China, and everywhere. I suppose if I were to emigrate to Sweden, if I were to seek and gain Swedish citizenship, that I'd find it hard to fit in and I'd never fit in except as a curiosity with a weird accent and weird habits. But my children would fit in as natural born Swedes, and they wouldn't lose anything their parents gave them, and regardless of the fact that their parent's ancestry wasn't Swedish, so their ancestry wasn't specifically Swedish, it wouldn't make a difference re. who they are.
The notions "secular Swede" and "secular Canadian", just like "secular RC", don't make sense to me.
King_David
(14,851 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)Yep yep yep
delrem
(9,688 posts)acquire, by the mystical power of conversion, an innate tie to the land of Palestine that no Arab born there can ever have? They acquire the right to return denied to Palestinian refugees?
'Sect' is sure a powerful word.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Seems your interest is much more than IP
delrem
(9,688 posts)happy holidays anyway )
King_David
(14,851 posts)Dick Dastardly
(937 posts)you can have secular Jews.
Jews are what is called an ethnoreligious group(see article below). There can be white jews, brown Jews, black Jews, asian Jews and just about every other type. Jews can be citizens of any country just like the Irish, Japanese, Italians or any other ethnic group but because they are an ethnoreligious group they can also be ethnic Irish, Japanese, Italian or any other ethnic group at the same time. Using your Swedish example if a Turk emigrated to Sweden he could become a citizen of sweden and his kids would also be citizens but neither he nor his kids would become ethnic Swedes. Similarily if a non Jewish Turk emigrated to Israel he could become an Israeli citizen who is not Jewish, but unlike in Sweden where he and his decendents would never be ethnic Swedes if he converted to Judaism he and his kids would be not only Israeli citizens but also Jewish and ethnic Turkish. If a Jewish Turk emigrated to Sweden his decendents would not be ethnic Swedes but they would still be citizens of Sweden of ethnic Jewish and Turkish background.
People not understanding the concept of an ethnoreligious group is why we commonly see false accusations such as Israel is a theocracy or various charges of racism that are not levied against any other group who do the same things but are considered acceptable.
A good example is in immigration where countries like Ireland,Germany, Italy, Finland and most other European countries or for that matter most all countries in the world have a preferential fast track immigration policy for those of their countries ethnic origin and a separate regular immigration policy for all others. Such policies are not considered racist and completely acceptable. Now going back to the Swedish example if the Turk who moved to Swedens grandson moved to another country, his decendents could not emmigrate back to Sweden under laws giving preferential treatment to ethnic Swedes. They would however be able to emmigrate to Turkey under such laws. The same thing would occur if you substituted Israel for Sweden in this scenario, except that while neither the original Turk nor his decendents(except in a few generations by having kids with ethnic Swedes) could ever be ethnic Swedes, in Israel the original Turk and his decendents could become Jewish by his conversion or even by the decendents converting and take advantage of prefferential emmigration. Despite Israel having a similar policy as other countries it is unjustly singled out as being theocratic and racist for doing the same thing especially when you consder that unlike other countries where you can never become a member of its ethnically dominant group in Israel since its dominant group is ethno-religious you can freely choose to become a part of it regardless if you are white, black, brown or from any other background.
Another example is Israel constantly being called a theocracy despite the fact there is no state religion and freedom of religion and religious tolerance is enshrined and practiced. In contrast there countries that are liberal democracies, many being in Europe, with religious freedom and tolerance but who also have official state religions and even some with governmental posts for religious officials.
The UK for instance has the Anglican Church as its official religion with the Monarch being the head and Chief deender of the faith. The Prime Minister also has some religious duties and there are ministerial and other government positions for religious officials. The Church if I am not mistaken also has seats in Parliaments House of Lords as well as its own legislative body that has the power to pass certain laws or policy in regards to religion.
Whether through misunderstanding, ignorance or purposeful misrepresentation of Jewishness Israel is constantly held to double standards or standards no one else is held to.
Ethnoreligious group
An ethnoreligious group (or ethno-religious group) is an ethnic group of people whose members are also unified by a common religious background. Ethnoreligious communities define their ethnic identity neither exclusively by ancestral heritage nor simply by religious affiliation, but often through a combination of both[citation needed] (a long shared history; a cultural tradition of its own; either a common geographical origin, or descent from a small number of common ancestors; a common language, not necessarily peculiar to the group; a common literature peculiar to the group; a common religion different from that of neighbouring groups; being a minority or being an oppressed or a dominant group within a larger community).[citation needed]
Examples of ethnic groups defined by ancestral religions are the Jews, the Druze of the Levant, the Copts of Egypt, the Yazidi of northern Iraq, the Zoroastrians of Iran and India, and the Serer of Senegal, the Gambia and Mauritania.[1]
In an ethnoreligious group, particular emphasis is placed upon religious endogamy, and the concurrent discouragement of interfaith marriages or intercourse, as a means of preserving the stability and historical longevity of the community and culture.[citation needed] This adherence to religious endogamy can also, in some instances, be tied to ethnic nationalism if the ethnoreligious group possesses a historical base in a specific region.[
full
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious_group
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State religion
Types of state religion
The degree and nature of state backing for denomination or creed designated as a state religion can vary. It can range from mere endorsement and financial support, with freedom for other faiths to practice, to prohibiting any competing religious body from operating and to persecuting the followers of other sects. In Europe, competition between Catholic and Protestant denominations for state sponsorship in the 16th century evolved the principle cuius regio eius religio ("states follow the religion of the ruler" embodied in the text of the treaty that marked the Peace of Augsburg, 1555. In England the monarch imposed Protestantism in 1533, with himself taking the place of the Pope, while in Scotland the Church of Scotland opposed the religion of the ruler.
In some cases, an administrative region may sponsor and fund a set of religious denominations; such is the case in Alsace-Moselle in France under its local law, following the pattern in Germany.
State churches
There is also a difference between a "state church" and the broader term of "state religion". A "state church" is a state religion created by a state for use exclusively by that state, examples of which include the Church of England (which previously was a Catholic church until it was separated by Henry VIII in 1534). An example of a "state religion" that's not also a "state church", is Roman Catholicism in Costa Rica which was accepted as the state religion in the 1949 Constitution, despite the lack of a national church. In the case of the former, the state has absolute control over the church, but in the case of the latter the church is ruled by an exterior body (in the case of Catholicism, the Vatican has control over the church). In either case, the official state religion has some influence over the ruling of the state. As of 2012, there are only five state churches left, as most countries which once featured state churches have separated church and state, thus downgrading their state churches to "national churches". The most recent country to separate church and state was Norway in 2012
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Christian countries
The following states recognize some form of Christianity as their state or official religion (by denomination):
[edit] Catholic
Jurisdictions which recognize Catholicism as their state or official religion:
Alsace-Moselle
Costa Rica[4]
Liechtenstein[5]
Malta[6]
Monaco[7]
Vatican City (theocracy)
The large portion of western Europe which previously held to the Catholic religion was known as Christendom, which was nominally headed by the Holy Roman Empire, a Catholic federation; after the advent of Protestantism and the subsequent Enlightenment, Christendom slowly collapsed as different states declared themselves Protestant or separated the Church from the state altogether.
Other
A number of countries, including Andorra, Argentina,[8] Dominican Republic, El Salvador,[9] Panama, Paraguay,[10] Peru,[11] Poland,[12] Portugal and Spain[13] give special recognition to Catholicism in their constitutions despite not making it the state religion.
All Swiss cantons give official recognition to both the Roman Catholic Church and the Swiss Reformed Church, except Geneva and Neuchâtel. Switzerland itself has no official religion.
[edit] Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdictions which recognize one of the Eastern Orthodox Churches as their state religion:
Greece: Church of Greece[14]
Other
The Finnish Orthodox Church[15] is not the state religion of Finland but has a special relationship with the Finnish state. The internal structure of the church is described in the Orthodox Church Act. The church has a power to tax its members and corporations if a majority of shareholders are members. The church does not consider itself a state church, as the state does not have the authority to affect its internal workings or theology.
[edit] Protestantism
[edit] Lutheran
Jurisdictions which recognize a Lutheran church as their state religion include the Nordic countries. Membership is very high among the general population, however the amount of actively participating members and believers is considerably lower than in many other countries with similar membership statistics. Furthermore, all of these churches have lately seen decline in the fraction of the population being members.
Denmark (Church of Denmark)[16] Also the Church of the Faroe Islands is the state church of the Faroe Islands, a territory of Denmark.
Iceland (Church of Iceland)[17] (76,81% of population members at 1 January 2012) [18]
Norway (Church of Norway) [19]
Other
The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland has a special relationship with the Finnish state, its internal structure being described in a special law, the Church Act.[15] The Church Act can be amended only by a decision of the Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church and subsequent ratification by the parliament. The Church Act is protected by the Finnish constitution, and the state can not change the Church Act without changing the constitution. The church has a power to tax its members and all corporations unless a majority of shareholders are members of the Finnish Orthodox Church. The state collects these taxes for the church, for a fee. On the other hand, the church is required to give a burial place for everyone in its graveyards.[20] (77.2% of population members at the end of 2011).[21] The Finnish president also decides the themes for the intercession days. The church does not consider itself a state church, as the Finnish state does not have the power to influence its internal workings or its theology, although it has a veto in those changes of the internal structure which require changing the Church Act. Neither does the Finnish state accord any precedence to Lutherans or the Lutheran faith in its own acts.
Sweden relegated their state church, Church of Sweden, to a national church in 2000. In late 2011 the Church of Sweden had 68.8% of the population as its members in 2011 although only around 20% of the Swedish population believes in any religion. Memberships are high because until 1996 membership was compulsory, all born before 1996 have to actively leave the church.[22]
[edit] Reformed
Jurisdictions which recognize a Reformed church as their state religion:
Tuvalu (Church of Tuvalu)
Other
The Church of Scotland is recognized as the national church of Scotland, but is not a state church and thus differs from the Church of England. Its constitution, which is recognised by acts of the British Parliament, gives it complete independence from the state in spiritual matters.[23]
All Cantons in Switzerland give recognition to the main churches, i. e. both the Swiss Reformed Church and the Roman Catholic Church, except Geneva and Neuchâtel. Switzerland itself has no official religion.
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The Church of England is the officially established religious institution [24] in England, and also the Mother Church of the worldwide Anglican Communion. It is the only established Anglican Church. The British monarch is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England and is Defender of the Faith. In late-19th-century England there was a campaign by Liberals, dissenters and nonconformists to disestablish the Church of England, which was viewed, in the period after civil Chartist activism, as a discriminatory organisation placing employment and other access disabilities on non-members. The campaigners styled themselves "Liberationists" (the "Liberation Society" was founded by Edward Miall in 1853). Though their campaign failed, nearly all of the legal disabilities of nonconformists were gradually dismantled. The campaign for disestablishment was revived in the 20th century when Parliament rejected the 1929 revision of the Book of Common Prayer, leading to calls for separation of Church and State to prevent political interference in matters of worship.
Lords Spiritual, who are the 26 most senior Archbishops and Bishops in the Church are reserved seats in Parliament in the House of Lords. The Archbishop of Canterbury, Archbishop of York, Bishop of London, Bishop of Durham, and the Bishop of Winchester sit automatically with the 21 longest-serving Bishops. Both the Labour Party and the Conservative Party have proposed reserved seats for the Lords Spiritual in a reformed House of Lords which would contain elected members. Plans to reform the house however, have been abandoned for this current Parliament and so all 26 Lords Spiritual remain in their reserved seats.
lists of countries with state or official churches/religions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion
delrem
(9,688 posts)It would take considerable research to fact-check the remaining sections.
The parts starting "A good example is in immigration ..." in the second paragraph, and continuing for another two paragraphs to the copy/pastes starting "Ethnoreligious group" don't pass my smell test. They seem to be, mostly, fantasy. I'd like to see some corroboration for the claims you make, but my admittedly superficial fact-checking doesn't provide any.
I think you somewhat confuse the concepts "ethnic group" and "country/state".
For example, in the sense that "Jewish" can be described as an ethnic group, it can also be said to have "preferred status" in the country of Israel, which is self-described as a Jewish state. A country/state is defined by its constitution and/or laws and insofar as Israel is called a Jewish state, this specific "Jewishness" is defined by Israel's laws. Laws, being composed of words and being subject of dispute in courts, require their terms be precisely defined so judgments can be sound, so no doubt Israel's laws would have criteria defining who is/isn't a "Jew" and of what said "Jewishness" (of the state, not the ethnic group) consists. No doubt there are many different branches/sub-groups of the ethnic group at large, which define the criteria for being a Jew more or less the same or differently, and these determinations need not be the same as that circumscribed by Israel's law.
In the case of Sweden, I daresay that every Swedish citizen is considered to be a Swede. I doubt that Sweden has laws requiring that "Swedes" have papers proving anything beyond Swedish citizenship. There might well be family-reunification plans/laws which enable the extended family of a Swedish citizen a fast track to immigration and eventual citizenship, but I very much doubt that such plans/laws prefer the family of one Swedish citizen over another as based on some (what???) criteria of "ethnicity". There is NO ethnic group within Sweden whose members, having fled for their lives for some reason, would not be allowed to return to the land of their birth because their ethnicity is less than privileged. Not in Sweden, Ireland, England, or any of the countries that you mention.
Israel's creation was unique, responding to the particularly awful circumstances of European Jews, especially. It had UN sanction. But what was true then is no longer true. An american Jew, immigrating to Israel in 2012 and fast-tracked into a settlement by Netanyahu's gov't, isn't fleeing any special persecution and isn't in imminent danger. My saying this isn't holocaust denial, nor does it intend to diminish the horror of the holocaust in any way, or to deny the integral role that the holocaust played in cementing the character of Israel's foundation. But Israel has been founded, a Jewish culture has been secured in law with the recognition of Hebrew as one of two official languages, and this is 60+ years on and it's a legitimate question to ask what real and moral right that american citizen, who happens to be ethnically Jewish, have to preferred status over a Palestinian refugee who was born in the land now known as Israel, and who fled for his/her life and now wants to return? I'm not speaking here of Israel's laws, which give legal right to such prejudice, because we all know that those laws exist. I'm speaking of moral right. The kind of right that you implicitly acknowledge exists when you try to equate Israel's immigration laws with those of Sweden and other western democracies.
Dick Dastardly
(937 posts)yet but I will in the next day or two.
Violet_Crumble
(35,977 posts)I would have posted it myself if I'd seen it, and it does belong in the I/P group. If you have an issue with it, get in touch with the hosts of the group...
King_David
(14,851 posts)Being the Jewish State and all , it's fair game to post any post about Jews and Hannukah and Halacha and antisemitism in this forum, I certainly wouldn't argue with that.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)How does one find that information?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)for years that is one of 2 things that has not changed the second is why I am replying
King_David
(14,851 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)there was an OP about something similar happening a few years back on DU2 it was not deleted for being OT for this group not to mention this OP happened in Israel which makes it proper for this group, now if this happened somewhere else it would be off topic
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I know I've seen that name before but I don't remember ever hearing from that person.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)...is evidently unaware of the fact that the Yule log is a pagan symbol, adopted only centuries later by post-Christianized Northern Europeans.
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)but I don't have an English link on that, only in the original Hebrew at the moment. Get a translation, it's high class (and low brow) doofus comedy at its worst.
King_David
(14,851 posts)I love it
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)the office of Netanyahoo Sr has had to release so many frantic explanations to the foaming bunch to date. I don't think the girlfriend responsible will be invited over for the next major holyday, like he really needs the bad press right now.
delrem
(9,688 posts)"Saudi religious police stormed a house in the Saudi Arabian province of al-Jouf, detaining more than 41 guests for plotting to celebrate Christmas, a statement from the police branch released Wednesday night said."
Really, the people as a whole have to get together and yell out a total "FUCK YOU!"
And put these assholes - none of whom gives a frying duck about the religion they hide behind - out of business.
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)The offending party probably retweeted something amusing about some crowned fool, such charges as this are usually a veil for such trivial offenses against the family. Recently a person who tweeted something that was really 95% in support of the monarchy was arrested for "insulting Islam" or somesuch nonsense in place of the actual charges.
delrem
(9,688 posts)and the antics of their "Royalty", and I'll never make sense of it.
I just wish that the people would rise up and overthrow this awful phony "Saudi Royalty" so they would be gone, forever, and that the people would institute some kind of democracy that looks toward benefiting the future of the people as a whole. I mean, that oil wealth isn't forever. It's a one-time deal. They can use it for some fucking "prince" to blow away in Monaco, or they can use it responsibly.
It makes me angry to think of it, to think of the waste of these wastrel "royals".
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)The Saudi monarchy, its wealth, and resources are a lynchpin in the present order.
Even assuming that the Saudi-occupied Arabian people are able to coordinate with enough numbers to rise up (and presently, they are zealously prevented from doing so, even in advance of any real organization to take it further), the Saudi-Wahhabi establishment has the full (if covert) support of the United States (and to a lesser extent, Israel) and its other clients. The security institutions of the state, with the assistance of its foreign patrons, would and do smash any popular gathering--reference the recent clashes in Qatif.
There is a regional power that has and can confront Wahhabiyah ideologically on the one hand, and fight the Saudi institutions on the other, but it is presently under siege by the aforementioned powers.