Hamas leader Khaled Meshal says group will never recognize Israel

[King_David]

By Joel Greenberg,

Published: December 8



JERUSALEM — In a fiery speech Saturday before a mammoth rally in Gaza City marking the 25th anniversary of the founding of Hamas, Khaled Meshal, the political leader of the militant Islamist group, pledged that it would never recognize Israel and called for an Islamic Palestinian state on the territory of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Meshal spoke during his first visit to Gaza, a triumphant tour after a recent eight-day war between Hamas and Israel, and 15 years after he survived an Israeli assassination attempt in Jordan.

A sea of green flags filled Katiba Square in Gaza City as Meshal and the Hamas prime minister in Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh, walked out of a giant replica of a long-range Hamas M-75 rocket set up on a stage with a mock-up of the walls of Jerusalem’s Old City.

Tens of thousands gathered for what was billed as both an anniversary and a victory celebration after last month’s conflict, during which Hamas fired rockets toward Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Meshal, who has led Hamas from exile, used the occasion to reiterate the group’s long-held principles, calling for “armed resistance” to eliminate Israel.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/hamas-leader-khaled-meshal-denounces-israel-at-anniversary-rally-in-gaza/2012/12/08/b311c70c-4179-11e2-a2d9-822f58ac9fd5_story.html

[aquart]

1. Ah. He advocates mass murder. What a fine fellow.

Oddly enough, my mind jumps to Norquist and McConnell. Rigid, uncompromising, gets his people killed.

[kayecy]

2. "mass murder"?......Where exactly did he advocate that?.......

"mass murder"?......Where exactly did he advocate that?.......

[oberliner]

4. "We kill the Zionists because they are conquerors and we will continue to kill..."

"We kill the Zionists because they are conquerors and we will continue to kill anyone who takes our land and our holy places … We will free Jerusalem inch by inch, stone by stone"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/08/hamas-gaza-palestine-khaled-meshaal-israel

[shira]

5. Personally, I consider denial of genocidal intent to be as bad as Holocaust denial. n/t

[kayecy]

7. In this hyper-sensitive forum it is best not to use hyperbole.......

There was no mention of "mass murder" in the lead article or in your Guardian article....

We can debate whether the statement "We kill the Zionists because they are conquerors and we will continue to kill anyone who takes our land and our holy places … We will free Jerusalem inch by inch, stone by stone" is the same thing as "mass murder", but it was wrong and inflamatory for the poster to put it in inverted commas........

[oberliner]

8. Inverted commas?

I don't see where the other poster used those.

I would note that I believe the quotation I provided speaks for itself. I'm not sure what there would be to debate.

[kayecy]

10. Oops......That was in my heading.......My mistake........n/t

[oberliner]

33. No problem

Incidentally, did you see that The Guardian changed "kill" to "fight" in the article?

[azurnoir]

17. why did you truncate the quote? Here is the actual quote

Meshaal congratulated fighters from Hamas and other armed groups who targeted long-range missiles at Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, saying: "We don't fight Jews because they are Jews. We fight the Zionists because they are conquerors and we will continue to fight anyone who takes our land and our holy places … We will free Jerusalem inch by inch, stone by stone."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/08/hamas-gaza-palestine-khaled-meshaal-israel

[King_David]

18. Hamas in Their Own Words

"The Nazi Jews tried different methods..."
"Let everyone know that Hamas... is only against Jews and those twisted in their manner... it realizes the Jews' methods in trying to cause hostility and friction between people..."
"We should lend punches to the Jews wherever possible [to commemorate Muhammad's defeat of one of the Jewish tribes of Arabia]."

(Hamas communiqué, September 8, 1988, translated and distributed in the U.S. by the Islamic Association for Palestine)

"Whoever is killed by a Jew receives the reward of two martyrs, because the very thing that the Jews did to the prophets was done to him.

"The Jews are the most despicable and contemptible nation to crawl upon the face of the Earth, because they have displayed hostility to Allah.

"Allah will kill the Jews in the hell of the world to come, just like they killed the believers in the hell of this world.

"The Jews kill anyone who believes in Allah. They do not want to see any peace whatsoever on Earth."

Sermon delivered by 'Atallah Abu Al-Subh, former Hamas minister of culture,


http://www.adl.org/main_israel/hamas_own_words.htm

[azurnoir]

19. so you pull unlinked stuff from elsewhere didn't answer the question though

again why did you truncate the post?

[King_David]

22. There is a link,at the bottom. nt

http://www.adl.org/main_israel/hamas_own_words.htm

I truncated?

[azurnoir]

23. thanks from the ADL dated May 2, 2011 thank you again I did not notice it

Abe Foxmans group is totally unbiased and without a political agenda of any sort as we all know

[King_David]

25. They can not fabricate quotes ,

I have heard people say mistranslations and such,but not fabrications.

[azurnoir]

28. well you would have a point if that had anything to do with my post

unfortunately it doesn't but hey ya got it out there and that;s what counts

[oberliner]

20. I just included the part that suggested mass murder

The poster above asked where Meshal had said anything about mass murder so I excerpted the part where he talked about killing people.

Interestingly, though, the article seems to have changed the word "kill" to the word "fight" - perhaps a translation correction?

Maybe the folks at The Guardian got contacted by Electronic Intifada with a better translation.

[azurnoir]

21. well here it is from Ma'an

"We will never recognize the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation and therefore there is no legitimacy for Israel, no matter how long it will take."

"We’ve tried negotiations and politics for more than 20 years … let’s review the political program," Mashaal said.

"We do not fight Jews because they are Jews, but we fight Zionists because they are occupiers and abusers."

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=546071

[oberliner]

24. Check this out

In its report on Hamas leader Khaled Meshal’s speech in Gaza on Saturday, The Observer, the Sunday sister paper of The Guardian, quoted Meshal saying the following words:

We don’t kill Jews because they are Jews. We kill the Zionists because they are conquerors and we will continue to kill anyone who takes our land and our holy places … We will free Jerusalem inch by inch, stone by stone.

This however is a blatant mistranslation. What Meshal actually said is:

We do not fight the Jews because they are Jews. We fight the Zionist occupiers and aggressors. And we will fight anyone who tries to occupy our lands or attacks us. We fight those who fight us, who attack us, who besiege us, who attack our holy places and our land.

Can you see the massive difference? To an untrained ear the Arabic verbs for “kill” and “fight” could sound the same because قتل – to kill – and قاتل – to fight or combat – come from the same root. But to any fluent Arabic speaker there is no ambiguity at all in what Meshal said as the clip below shows.

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/uks-observer-adds-kill-jews-hamas-leader-khaled-meshals-gaza-speech-when-he-did

[azurnoir]

29. ya want to get weirder

the Arabic version of Ma'an doesn't have anything like either quote a lot from Mesha'al but its all about unity, albeit Google translations of Arabic to English leave much to be desired

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ar&u=http://www.maannews.net/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DMaan%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DAjD%26tbo%3Dd%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US fficial&sa=X&ei=JTTFUNWPFoeXyAHX1oGgDQ&ved=0CEUQ7gEwAQ

[oberliner]

30. Can you find a transcript of his whole speech in Arabic?

That would be worth checking out.

[azurnoir]

31. tried but no luck with that n/t

[oberliner]

32. Please do post a link if you can find it

I would think it would surface somewhere at some point.

[oberliner]

35. Do you have a link for that?

It's really stunning. Assuming there aren't major translation errors, I do not see how anyone cannot see that speech for what it is.

[azurnoir]

37. "I do not see how anyone cannot see that speech for what it is." well can you explain just so there

no misunderstandings

[oberliner]

39. Violent resistance encouraged as a means to liberate all of Palestine

Does that not come across to you?

[azurnoir]

42. do you mean Palestine or Israel? n/t

[oberliner]

43. All of historic Palestine, including what is now Israel

You don't read it that way?

[azurnoir]

44. well of course I did I thought we all learned from the Helen Thomas incident to name just one

when an Arab says Palestine they really mean Israel well unless the Arab is Khalid abu Tomah I hear he's one of 'good ones'




sarcasm

[shira]

45. You're trying to airbrush Meshal's calls for hate and murder.

You know damned well that's what he's all about.

Why defend him?

[oberliner]

46. I don't agree with that at all

I come to the conclusion based on the very specific language used in this particular speech (again, assuming the translation is not fabricated).

For example:

"From the river to the sea" is a phrase that he used in this speech, reported on by various news sources. This would be a pretty clear reference to all of historical Palestine, including Israel, wouldn't it?

Do you think that in his speech he is only talking about Gaza and The West Bank?

[azurnoir]

38. well I'm sure the MEMRI translation posted fulfills your needs

quite well because MEMRI translations are the bestest no one can understand Arabic better than few 'former' Mossad and Shin Bet agents right?

[oberliner]

41. I'd love to have a translation from another source

If you can find one, please share.

Or if you know someone who speaks Arabic and can watch the video and translate it themselves, that would be great too.

[aquart]

40. Oh, I'm sorry. For the ostriches, the Jews will antiseptically self-deport.

Feel all clean now?

[no_hypocrisy]

3. How can there be two states established if both states

refuse to recognize each other?

[shira]

6. Israel has offered Palestinians their own state twice since 2000. n/t

[Fozzledick]

9. Israel IS willing to recognize a Palestinian state

if they can agree on borders and security arrangements to keep the peace. Some people don't like the terms Israel has proposed, but they're open to negotiation.

Meshal on the other hand is clearly saying that he refuses to live in peace with Israel under ANY conditions.

[holdencaufield]

11. "...group will never recognize Israel"

Last edited Sun Dec 9, 2012, 09:13 PM - Edit history (1)

Maybe Israel should wear a name tag?

?height=160&width=160

[King_David]

26. LOL

[azurnoir]

12. charter of Israel's ruling party

The 1999 Likud charter emphasizes the right of settlement.

"The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting."[11]

Similarly, they claim the Jordan River as the permanent eastern border to Israel and it also claims Jerusalem as belonging to Israel.

"Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem, including the plan to divide the city presented to the Knesset by the Arab factions and supported by many members of Labor and Meretz."[12]

The 'Peace & Security' chapter of the 1999 Likud Party platform rejects a Palestinian state.

"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs."[11]

With Likud back in power, starting in 2009, Israeli foreign policy is still under review. Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu, in his "National Security" platform, neither endorsed nor ruled out the idea of a Palestinian state.[13] "Netanyahu has hinted that he does not oppose the creation of a Palestinian state, but aides say he must move cautiously because his religious-nationalist coalition partners refuse to give away land."[14]

In June 2009 Netanyahu outlined his conditions for the eventual creation of a Palestinian state, including the state being demilitarized, without an army or control of their airspace.[15]

This page was last modified on 9 December 2012 at 05:49.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likud#Charter

[shira]

13. So when faced with neo-nazi style Hamas incitement to murder Jews....

...you feel you don't need to condemn such a thing, but rather cite Likud's charter to make a superficial parallel?

Is this in the anti-Hasbara handbook? I see it all the time. Hamas can do the most deplorable things and some silly, disingenuous moral equivalency is brought up to show Israel is just as bad?

You'd have something if Likud's charter called for killing the Arabs. Or Netanyahu calling for such a thing.

[azurnoir]

14. no it is a fact so are you claiming Meshaal is threatening to kill all Jews

everywhere just like a new Hitler?

and superficial is in the eye of the beholder

[shira]

15. You brought it up to show Likud is as bad as Hamas, right?

Meshaal didn't call for the killing of all Jews in the speech cited, but Hamas does daily. That's a fact. He's the head.

You're just throwing up smoke-screens & distractions.

[azurnoir]

16. really it's a fact you say is it a fact ? I brought it up to show the refusal

of recognition is mutual sorry if that upsets you

but why did you dodge your original claim? could it be because you know it is not true?

[ZombieHorde]

27. The headline cuts off Khaled Meshal's statement a little bit.

It should read: Hamas leader Khaled Meshal says group will never recognize Israel on a map.

Hamas members hate geography, and refuse to learn it.