Palestinians win upgraded UN status by wide margin

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"The UN General Assembly has voted to grant the Palestinians non-member observer state status - a move opposed by Israel and the US.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas told the assembly the vote was the "last chance to save the two-state solution" with Israel.

Israel's ambassador to the UN, Ron Prosor, said the bid "doesn't advance peace - it pushes it backwards".

The assembly voted 138-9 in favour, with 41 nations abstaining."

<snip>

""Sixty-five years ago on this day, the United Nations General Assembly adopted resolution 181, which partitioned the land of historic Palestine into two states and became the birth certificate for Israel," Mr Abbas told the assembly.

"The General Assembly is called upon today to issue a birth certificate of the reality of the State of Palestine," he said."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20550864

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. It's about time they had that status. n/t

[azurnoir]

2. yep K&R

[regnaD kciN]

3. The only appropriate move, really...

[LeftishBrit]

4. Good first step. Let us hope that this is the beginning of a peaceful and prosperous state...

and that neither Israel, nor the 'all-or-nothing' types on the Palestinian right, manage to sabotage it.

[Lithos]

55. Agreed

Good first step.

[hack89]

5. This poses a huge risk for the Palestinians

there is no reason to believe that Hamas supports this considering how it enhances the PA's prestige. If all this does is emphasizes how "Palestine" is really two separate and hostile entities then it has not made things better.

[azurnoir]

6. well keep your fingers crossed n/t

[Scootaloo]

8. Hamas is part of the PA, and Gaza is part of Palestine

[King_David]

11. The UN bid was made by the PLO not the PA. nt

[azurnoir]

24. well for one that posts here so often I am surprised you do not understand what the PLO and PA are

and how they function

the PA handles domestic affairs and relations

the PLO handles international affairs and relations

both are headed by Mahmoud Abbas

[King_David]

27. PA includes Hamas in legislature

PLO does not.

Understand ?

[azurnoir]

29. no Hamas has not been part of the PA since June of 2007

it is nice I can provide some education for you

[King_David]

30. Legally yes Hamas is a part of it ,

But the 2 entities are nothing resembling anything democratic so defacto Hamas is not part of it.

The PLO ? Hamas is not a part of at all...in any way , except wgen they collaborate with the Al Aqsa terrorists.

Get it now? If not PM myself and I'll be glad to offer you additional help.

[azurnoir]

31. no Hamas is not part of the PA legally or otherwise that's what

all the talk of reunification is about

[King_David]

32. I guess just posting on an internet forum is not enough,

Palestine Authority - combines the Gaza Strip and the West Bank under a political unit with limited autonomy and a police force; created in 1993 by an agreement between Israel and the PLO
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Palestine+Authority

Now through a coup (not a legal route ) Hamas wrested control of Gaza.


Get it?

Squares do not go through circles unless the circle diameter is greater.

[azurnoir]

34. lol no Hamas is not part of the PA at the current time

and a 20 year old dictionary entry does not impress and I do understand why this claim is now that a Palestinian state has been declared oh so important but fantasy does not change fact

[King_David]

37. Sigh ,

Guess it is a difficult concept to grasp.

But I can not keep on explaining it to you.

I tried

[hack89]

12. Abbas and Hamas are locked in a violent struggle

Abbas has no control over either Gaza or Hamas.

[azurnoir]

25. no Hamas is not part of the PA at least not since June of 2007

when they overthrew the PA in Gaza by force

[Scootaloo]

39. Actually, Dave is right on this (I know, it's wild!)

Hamas is legally part of the Palestinian government - the Palestinian Authority. However there's a big rift between it and Fatah, the leading party. Both parties accuse the other of starting it.

However since late 2011, the two have been working on reconciliation to re-form a unity government. Negotiations have been stalled, but as of yesterday, looks like they might be picking back up:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/29/world/middleeast/leader-of-hamas-calls-for-palestinian-unity.html

Gaza is not separate from Palestine. The ruling party in Gaza is not actually a separate government in legal terms. This statehood recognition includes Gaza, and implicitly includes Hamas as well.

[King_David]

44. Ha ha

Thanks .. I think..

[azurnoir]

57. lol team mates eh? but still here it is from a source you would trust

PA-Hamas unity could lead to settlement building'

http://www.jpost.com/VideoArticles/20Questions/Article.aspx?id=218335

[azurnoir]

56. well it seems odd but a couple of years back when it suited the needs at the time

one of Daves team mates proved they are not part of the PA and at the moment they are not part of the PA and the PNC has been on hold for 5 1/2 years due to that, Hamas will be once again part of the PA when and if unity happens which it has not

[Skidmore]

7. I don't usually stop over to this group, but I just wanted to

check as to why recognition of a Palestinean state is something so vehemently opposed by Israeal and us, especially since the stated goal for the area is a two-state solution. Does this not make things easier? I would think that having a state as an entity would give some identified entity for all Palestineans to rally around and support movement forward. And why would Israel be so adamantly denying for another people what it wants for itself? It just doesn't hang together.

[Scootaloo]

9. Because it recognizes Palestine as a state without forcing it to give handouts to Israel

Which is what the US and Israel want from those "direct negotiations" they keep banging on about - more land ceded, more sovereignty sacrificed, more resources given away, more rights deferred.

[KimonoGirl]

10. A Zionist's wet dream

All of Palestine belongs to no other people. They are a special people deserving of a special homeland. To hell with everyone else.

^ The ruling class believe this in Israel. Was there ever a hope for Palestine to survive?

[King_David]

13. Sounds familiar , heard this before :

"Zionists " "They are a special people deserving of a special homeland"

If you say "Zionists are a special people"

You can only be referring to Jews .

[KimonoGirl]

14. Not all jews are Zionists, Thank God.

Not all jews want to live in Israel/Palestine and are happy living in democratically free nations around the world.

Not all jews agree with the method of ethically cleansing of Palestinians that is justified under Zionism.

Not all jews believe they need to demonize, humiliate and oppress people in order to IMPOSE their religious rights over others.

Not all jews think it's right for their religion to be usurped by radicals that use it to discriminate and de-legitimize other religious groups.

It's wrong when radical islamists do it and wrong when radical jews do it.

I am referring to Zionist jews.

You don't speak for all Jews, or even "most of them". And not all of them subscribe to your view and because of that: There is still hope for shared peace.

[oberliner]

16. Why do you repeatedly put "Jews" in lowercase?

It doesn't seem like just a typo anymore since you do it so frequently here.

[King_David]

17. Your screed is irrelevant and BS , if you talk about Zionists as a "people"

Your talking about Jews.

( I am a mainstream Jew and if you think the vast majority of Jews are not Zionists you don't know about Jews )

[KimonoGirl]

18. Not all Zionists are Jews. This isn't a complicated point, you know?

So why is it so hard for you to understand?

If you fall under that Zionist category, then you know what I think of you.

[img][/img]

Move on now.

[King_David]

19. No it's you who don't get it,

If you are talking about Zionists as a "people " your talking about Jews.

I will not just "move on now".... How inconvenient for YOU.

[KimonoGirl]

21. Le Sigh.

I'm not talking about them as a PEOPLE.

One last time:

I'm talking about anyone, irrespective of their religious leanings or ethnicities or nationalities or whatever, who class themselves AS a Zionist. That includes a wide range of persons.

Not all Zionists are Jews and not all Jews (thankfully) are Zionists.

You're repeating yourself and it's getting tedious. Thus my suggestion that you move on to another frivolous objection or argument to deflect from the main issues that inconvenience Zionist such as yourself.

[King_David]

22. Really? ''I'm not talking about them as a PEOPLE''

'A Zionist's wet dream

All of Palestine belongs to no other people. They are a special people deserving of a special homeland. To hell with everyone else.

^ The ruling class believe this in Israel. Was there ever a hope for Palestine to survive?


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=24093




Changed your mind?

[KimonoGirl]

28. Do you make it a habit of twisting people's words?

Zionists, Jewish or not, spout that stuff I wrote. It's the kind of vehement BS you hear all day from them. The "people" reference in that statement refers to the Jewish people. Obviously. You can be a non-Jewish Zionist and believe the Jewish people deserve their own homeland. Wow, why that was so hard for you to grasp is perplexing. lol

Furthermore, my statement was in a response to this question:

And why would Israel be so adamantly denying for another people what it wants for itself?


And we're done.

[King_David]

33. 'And we're done. '

Maybe you are...

I posted exactly your words,that is why there were quotation marks around them.

I twisted nothing....the words were yours.

[Scootaloo]

40. King Dave believes he has authority to declare people non-Jews

Based on their support or lack thereof of Zionism.

He's a typical "Israel supporter" - Combining a seething hatred of Arabs with a general disgust towards Jews.

[shira]

42. This shit needs to stop...

Where do you see KD hating Arabs and/or Jews?

Proof please.

Now I'll ask you: Would you find it okay if anyone pro-Israel here were to write that the anti-zionist mob here tends to combine a seething hatred of Jews, along with a general disgust towards Arabs?

[Scootaloo]

46. Well, here he is feeling he has authority to declare Hassidics non-Jews;

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014320999#post49
Follow down the little subthread, please.

Also, as for your question... Isn't that what you guys do? I mean really, isn't about every other post you make a claim that myself or Azurnoir (what a mob!) are both antisemites who don't actually give a damn about the Palestinians? I would question your self-identification as "pro-Israel"since you're fucking absolutely not, but... Yeah, that's what you spend your time here on, chief.

Do you ever read your own posts?

[King_David]

48. You do know the difference between Hassidic Jews in general

And Naturei Karta ?

Lubavitcher Hadsidic Jews for example are

Zionists .

As for the rest of your posts in this thread :

HOSTILE !

Totally devoid of real debate.

Choc a bloc full of insults , innuendo and

dislike.

But in case you feel bad about it , it's like

water off a ducks back.

[Scootaloo]

49. Oh, I know. But you still lack any authority to question their Jewishness

But you did it anyway.

[King_David]

53. How did I do that?

With quotation marks ?

I make no excuse for my dislike of that extreme right wing homophobic anti Zionist tiny Jewish group . Together with David Duke they attended a Holocaust denial conference in Iran hosted by Amerdinajat.

I have no authority true, if only the Jewish people had 'excommunication '

[shira]

59. Seriously? The Neturei Karta are considered whackadoodles by Hassids.

Last edited Fri Nov 30, 2012, 11:32 PM - Edit history (3)

They are reviled by not only Orthodox Jews in general, but also fellow Hassidic Jews who have been known to throw out these extremists from their synagogues. Here's the thing with Hassidic Judaism. There are many different sects. Satmar happens to be anti-zionist. But Neturei Karta is too extreme for them. They don't wish harm on fellow Jews like the NK, nor do they cozy up to obnoxious Jew haters like Hamas, Assad of Syria, or Iran's Achmadinejad.

I'm curious about this charge of the zionists here not being particularly pro-Israel.

Are you pro-Israel? Or is no one here pro-Israel?

[Scootaloo]

74. And that's a fair argument to make, Shira

Having read up on 'em a bit, I can easily sign up with the impression that they are "whackadoodles."

There is of course a difference between saying something like "I don't agree with them, they're fucking nuts" and saying "they're not really Jews." Which is pretty much what Dave did when he replied to P_B's question. As far as I'm aware, Judaism does not have an Israel-based litmus test - and even if it did, I rather doubt Dave is qualified to perform such a test.

[shaayecanaan]

104. Hypocrisy, thy name is...

Now I'll ask you: Would you find it okay if anyone pro-Israel here were to write that the anti-zionist mob here tends to combine a seething hatred of Jews, along with a general disgust towards Arabs?

Please. You equate anti-zionism with antisemitism all the time. You are hardly in a position to object.

[kayecy]

106. Here is your proof, or at least a pointer........

King-David has stated that he is: "......proud to be associated with "Behind-the-Aegis"

As both you and KD know, BtH makes a habit of using such hate-speech as "Jew-hating " and "Neo -Nazis" when referring to other DU members.



Perhaps you too, Shira are: "......proud to be associated with "Behind-the Aegis"?

[King_David]

47. I hate Arabs ?

How do you get that ?

Do you hate Jews? Has anyone said you do?

As for your post... It's a steaming pile of shit.

[Scootaloo]

50. I meant "Israel Supporters" in general

But give me time, I'm certain I can fish up hatred towards Arabs from you, Dave.

i'll grant that maybe, maybe I'll be surprised! I'm really not counting on it, but we'll see after I get back from work and go digging, hmm?

[King_David]

51. Go for it,

It's simply not true .

[Scootaloo]

52. Sure thing

Strapped for time at the moment, evening shift at work and all. But I'll get back to you. Warm up that edit button!

[King_David]

54. I had a 3 month fling with an Arab dude 2 years ago...

Which is not the same thing as saying "some of my best friends are Arabs " unless you sleep with your best friends.

[Scootaloo]

75. Actually yes, that is pretty much the same thing.

Anyway. I've gone through seven pages of search results. You have my apologies, King-David, I haven't seen anything overtly anti-Arab from you. The closest was the usual sort of "Y ARAB NATIONS NO FIX ISRAEL'S REFUGEE PROBLEM?!" stuff, but, meh,

So. Consider me both surprised and contrite on that score.

[King_David]

77. Apology accepted,

[shira]

38. Jews who are zionist or at least sympathetic to Israel are by far.....

...the mainstream.

I don't know the numbers for Gaza 2, but in Gaza 1 (Cast Lead) some 90% of American Jews were in favor of Israel going after Hamas. The numbers were similar in Israel with the Jews there. The vast majority of Jews are in either America or Israel. If you're thinking anti-zionist Jews, they make up < 1% of the Jewish population and are very sympathetic to Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and other terror groups like the PFLP.

Most Zionist Jews do not wish to demonize, humiliate, oppress, ethnically cleanse, kill, or delegitimize Palestinians. The vast majority want to live in peace with the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world. So most Zionists are not radicals.

[Scootaloo]

41. Lines that make me go hmmm...

Most Zionist Jews do not wish to demonize, humiliate, oppress, ethnically cleanse, kill, or delegitimize Palestinians.

Too bad none of them post on DU.

[shira]

43. Riiiiiight. Want to back that claim up?

How would you respond to most anti-Zionists being in favor of demonizing, humiliating, oppressing, ethnically cleansing, killing, or delegitimizing the Jews of Israel / Zionists?

[Scootaloo]

45. I would respond by pointing out you're full of shit.

But then, that's how I respond to pretty much everything you say, because... well, it's true.

As for my claim? Ever read any of your own posts, Shira? it's nothing BUT demonization of Arabs as a whole. You're also quite fond of demonizing Jews for that matter, as are the sources you fall back on like David Horowitz.

You believe that Palestinians should be denied political rights, since you do not think that political rights are included in the rubric of "civil rights," remember?

I wonder hiw that argument would fly over in the GLBT or feminism groups. Why don't you give it a try?

As we see in that post, and from your arguments in support of the Levi Report, you are also a supporter of the ongoing Israeli expansion into the West Bank and the expulsion of Arabs from Jerusalem. So there's some oppression, humiliation, and ethnic cleansing.

You've spent the last week among the others of your cesspool ideology arguing that Palestinian civilians just fucking need to die because ermagerd rerkerts.

You have at no turn expressed any actual sentiment for the notion of a Palestinian state, unless of course it is based on what scraps Israel offers; there's your legitimization and some more more humiliation.

While I do not by any means doubt that there are plenty of Zionists who do not desire to inflict these harms upon the Palestinian people... apparently none of those Zionists post on DU. You are most assuredly not among their number.

[KimonoGirl]

60. Scootaloo, you are impressive!

I've never seen such a thorough dragging on DU. *applauds*

shira... dare to respond? Unlikely.

[King_David]

65. "I've never seen such a thorough dragging on DU. "

Yes cos you been here sooo long

[KimonoGirl]

69. Yes, you're so right.

My years of lurking are unaccounted for.


[img][/img]

[shira]

63. Well that's my response to your accusations

None of what you accused me of is true. I criticize, not demonize. I'm for a Palestinian state based on the Geneva Initiative (look it up). I'm for Israel's right to defend itself (in fact I find it more immoral not to defend a population from terror attacks). WRT the LoN (Balfour) text from 90 years ago, I pointed out a fact (not my opinion). Apparently Balfour, the LoN, and UN believed in a permanent Jewish homeland - and that's why they were against Palestinian political rights). If you have another interpretation for the Mandate for Palestine, go for it (and I won't assume like you that it's your opinion). I'm against settlement expansion, have big problems with settlements deep into the WB like Maale Adumim, do not like extreme settlers (kahanists), & I'm against their building those illegal hilltop shacks - which are illegal according to Israeli Law too.

You just see what you want to see. You just have to believe that all or almost all Zionists are racists, pro-settlements, kahanists, and for killing, ethnic cleansing, apartheid, and oppressing Palestinians. That way you don't have to deal with mainstream liberal zionists. You believe that since they're all the same, you can ridicule, humiliate, and ignore them; never feeling the need to discuss things rationally with them. They can't be liberal or progressive; they must all be rightwing, pro-Likud, etc. Keep trying to believe that...

Now actually, that's something Hamas and the PLO believe too. All zionists are the same. Any Jewish (zionist) coming to Israel (even anti-zionist Jews) after 1920 is a colonialist, thief, racist, etc. Left or Right, they're all bad. How is your position any different?

I also find your comment "ermagerd rerkerts" disturbing. Think of people in Sderot, Ashkelon, and now Tel-Aviv. How do you think they'd respond to your ridicule? They're just over-reacting and whiny? Please. Your contempt of Israelis/Zionists/Jews could not be more clearly on display. You're minimizing war crimes and collective punishment (rocket attacks) against an innocent population & you are accusing others of being in favor of an operation like Pillar of Defense? What's worse? What you're accusing your opponents of or what you are ridiculing?

As to your views and that of other anti-zionists, the Anti-Zionism is Anti-Semitism thread says it all. One example after another.

[holdencaufield]

78. I'm a zionist Jew ...

... And I post here regularly and I have never called for the demonization, humiliation, oppression, ethnic cleansing, killing or delegitimization of Palestinians.

To the contrary, I - like most Zionists - pray for the day when the leaders of Hamas and Fatah get over this destructive dream of getting rid of Israel and get down to negotiating a permanent peace with Israel and building a prosperous state.

I, Like the vast majority of Israelis, look forward to helping the Palestinians build that state.

[aquart]

76. What ignorant bloody crap.

It's like a southerner talking about the happy darkies.

You don't know what Zionist means. You don't know what Zionism is. You don't know what Israel means to a Jew.

But for anti-Semites, it's a way to pretend there are good Jews and bad Jews. The way them darkies on the plantations were good happy darkies and the ones that struck out for freedom were bad and needed to be punished.

[Ken Burch]

62. Actually, her description doesn't even include all Zionists.

(btw, it's possible to be a Zionist without being Jewish...and some of the most intransigent and inflexible are the Christian Zionists...the ones who only back Israel because they are obsessed with dragging the world into their "Last Days" scenario, a scenario that leads to Jews being forced to choose between conversion or death).

A lot of Zionists actually reject the idea that all of Palestine should be part of Israel-and that what the IDF does can never be criticized...and that there's any reason at all to expand the settlements.

The better angels of the Zionist nature were about establishing a homeland, a place of safety...not hegemony and domination for hegemony and domination's sake.

The greatest threat to Israel isn't Hamas...it's the fixation the Israeli Right has with taking more and more and more land, just for the sake of taking more and more land. Netanyahu and his mob are totally committed to that vision...and they STILL haven't given up on preventing a Palestinian state from EVER being established next to Israel(even though they know that keeping Palestinians stateless means that the Israeli government has no right to ask the Arab world to recognize it).

[King_David]

67. Who cares? She described Zionists as " bloodthirsty "

Jews who eat blood or are thirsty for it ...


Geez now that's Origional .

[Ken Burch]

71. I'm not actually defending her, by the way.

n/t.

[King_David]

72. good

[oberliner]

15. Do you understand the history at all behind the Zionist movement?

It is most definitely the opposite of what you have written here. Do you know what historical events led the Jewish people in Europe to believe that they might need a homeland? It has nothing to do with them feeling they were "special", believe me.

[KimonoGirl]

20. Sure.

Everything I wrote is born directly from Zionism, the after-effects, the collateral damage of such self-serving ideology. It's cause for existence, linked mostly to religious interpretations, as well as a moral judgement on the injustice inflicted against Jews in Europe. Of course, it would be the Palestinians who have to pay the price for Europe's treatment of Jews. That makes so much sense! One injustice replaced by another injustice. And even better, have the Jewish people, who suffered unspeakable atrocities, take over as modern day Oppressors to boot. How the tables have turned! Does it feel cathartic to wield such power over another populous? And visit pain and suffering on them? The humiliation of having these people living in such a hell hole like Gaza and treating them like garbage, and knowing you have the power to bring a stop to it, must be so exhilarating.

The Zionists live off this conflict, their very existence depends on it. A peaceful two-state solution would make Zionism a complete and total failure. For example, Palestine cannot exist having any claim to any part Jerusalem. Can you even IMAGINE that being acceptable to a Zionist? Without concessions like that, how do you see this conflict ever ending?

The radicals on both sides need to be stopped and removed from the equation. Zealots incapable of coherent decisions based on fair OBJECTIVITY, and not rudimentary selfish ideology, nothing will ever change. People on both sides will continue to die.

[shira]

35. Lot of bullshit in that response

1. Jews didn't want an Israel due only to the Holocaust. Zionism started in the late 1800's, when life was difficult for nearly all Jews. And yes, even in Arab countries where there were pogroms and they were 2nd or 3rd class citizens.

2. There is no injustice about Jews in Israel. It's the historic homeland for the Jews, who have been a presence in the land for over 3000 years. The original Palestine was split in two, with 3/4 of it going to the Arabs and 1/4 going to the Jews. That is in no way an injustice whatsoever.

3. The Jews aren't oppressors either. What a disgusting charge! The truth is that no one allows Jews to defend themselves. Reminds me of this video, which happens to sum this idiotic victim vs. oppressor nonsense:

4. The Jews do not live off this conflict. The Jews accepted partition in 1947. They agreed to the Clinton Parameters in 2001. Olmert made an even better offer in 2008. The last 2 deals would have granted the Palestinians half of Jerusalem and a state on nearly 100% of pre-67 WB and Gaza land.

[KimonoGirl]

61. Cut and paste

I feel like you're just repeating yourself at this point. You've had the same symantic argument with several people here already.

Boring.

[shira]

64. Translated: You got nothing. Typical. n/t

[KimonoGirl]

66. So tedious. *yawn*

You can take your cut&paste arguments elsewhere. You've used that recycled mess of a youtube video how many times now? Boring. You have nothing new or relevant to add to this tired ass debate.

Besides, Scoot dragged you for the Gods already tonight. LOL Retire.

[img][/img]

[shira]

68. "You've used that recycled mess of a youtube video how many times now"?

Uhhh, never. That's the first time. Now here's the 2nd...

So what do you think of the video?

Did you check out the reply to Scoot's "dragging"?

[KimonoGirl]

70. It's the go to video with you lot.

It's been posted before. I sure as hell would never go look for it and I first saw it here on DU. I'm not surprised you posted it though? It's as illogical as 99% of your arguments.

I saw your response to Scoot. The only thing remotely sensible:

"You just see what you want to see."

Sensible mostly because of the huge amount of self-projection poured into that one statement.

Preceded by this:

"I'm for Israel's right to defend itself (in fact I find it more immoral not to defend a population from terror attacks)"

Really? Is that as far as you can see?

You see only one side worthy of security, safety and a defense from terror. That's the problem with Zionists. Only one side is human enough to be worthy of life.

[shira]

80. Here's the problem with folks like yourself...

You say Israel is just killing kids in Gaza. For Israel to merely defend its citizens is immoral. But then you applaud whoppers like this crap:

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/101781699#post1

That was in response to a video where one "Owen Jones" justified Hamas & their thousands of rockets on Israelis as a natural response to the Israeli blockade and occupation. Do you not see the problem with that? Rather than condemn Hamas' war crimes, he's justifying them. And you're applauding that.

Hamas (and Islamic Jihad) would fire rockets in order to kill Jews even if Israel pulled back to exact '67 lines & offered more concessions than ever before. That's what Hamas does. If they could pull off a genocide, they would. How do I know? They've repeatedly said that, over and over. "Owen Jones" knows that & is giving them justification for their attempted murder, their war crimes. And you're applauding that.

Think it over the next time you want to accuse "Zionists" of just wanting to kill Palestinians. Your tacit support of Hamas' attempts to kill "Zionists" makes you as bad as those you're accusing of being bloodthirsty.

And the audience ate that shit up as well! Yes, what else can Hamas & Islamic Jihad do? They're desperate, they're victims, they're oppressed by the mean Israelis! They're justifying war crimes and collective punishment (rocket attacks) against innocents.

[KimonoGirl]

95. *sigh* Neverending... blah with you.

You say Israel is just killing kids in Gaza. For Israel to merely defend its citizens is immoral. But then you applaud whoppers like this crap:

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/101781699#post1

Firstly, thank you for posting that video thread with that wonderful display of truth spoken in the face of pure f***ery from the other panellists. The audience, like most of the world, applauded him. I would do so again.

If Israel wants to defend their citizens in a moral way: They would STOP stealing land through their settlement building. What affect, other than outrage and attack, would such a thing produce? The result of these provocations are obviously something Israel wants. They are inviting attacks.

Rather than condemn Hamas' war crimes, he's justifying them.

And are YOU not doing the exact same thing with Israel? Their war crimes are just as heinous, if not more so from the sheer disproportion of indiscriminate killing, as Hamas' rockets. Understanding and not being stupid to the CAUSE of a conflict does not mean you support the actions of the group. The difference between people like you and me: I THINK BOTH SIDES ARE WRONG. You still think Israel is not. What a f***ing joke.

Hamas (and Islamic Jihad) would fire rockets in order to kill Jews even if Israel pulled back to exact '67 lines & offered more concessions than ever before.

The more options for peace, that strengthen more reasonable players like Abbas, would bring more unity and offer Palestinians the hope they need to push out and REJECT Hamas and groups like them. The presumptuous and self-fulfilling scenario you described wouldn't even be a consideration if Israel ENGAGED in a SERIOUS way and not use Hamas a roadblock to ANY progress. Instead, building 3,000 more settlements makes Israel look even more stupid and contemptible. This Zionist government wants to provoke attacks. Keep the status-quo. Play the victim when they do get attacked. Continue the conflict even if it means killing Palestinians like it was a sport going out of fashion. This shit is no different with Hamas who are also contemptible and offer ZERO help in bringing this conflict to a peaceful end.

[shira]

97. You are justifying terror (Palestinian so-called resistance / war crimes) vs. innocents

You can argue until you're blue that Hamas has good reason to send rockets, but they're very clear about their intentions and I happen to believe them. Their goal is to eventually destroy Israel, even if it takes another 50-100 years. They want as many Jews killed as possible. They've said so many times.

You're giving them excuses they don't even use.

To them, Tel-Aviv is also a settlement and it's illegal to build there too as Jews have NO rights to any of the land there.

Lastly, Hamas' rocket attacks and Israel's response are in no way morally equivalent. Hamas' rockets are very deliberate war crimes. Murder in the 1st degree. OTOH, Israel's response is absolutely legal according to all Laws of War (Geneva, etc.) and it's Geneva, for example, that assigns all blame to Hamas for innocent Palestinian civilians who are killed.

Your inversion of reality is complete perversion. The very fact that people like yourself are silent when Hamas is sending thousands of rockets over the border goes to show only one people in this conflict has human rights in your opinion. And it's not Israelis. In no way do you equally condemn both sides or show equal sympathy for both. Your utter contempt for one side (Israelis) is perfectly clear. That you assign no blame to Hamas for what they do to the population of Gaza (far worse than anything imaginable committed by Israel) goes to show you loathe Palestinians too, but that's for another time.

[KimonoGirl]

98. Your post Title is utter BULLCRAP. Just so ya know.

Last edited Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:03 PM - Edit history (1)

You can argue until you're blue that Hamas has good reason to send rockets, but they're very clear about their intentions and I happen to believe them. Their goal is to eventually destroy Israel, even if it takes another 50-100 years. They want as many Jews killed as possible. They've said so many times.

I never said the reason was "good" or right. All I am saying, just like Owen Jones CORRECTLY pointed out, the provocation was clearly there. The cause can be explained but that doesn't mean HOW Hamas chooses to respond to such provocation is in anyway right. It's so easy for you to inflate the two things to make your vacuous point. I have stated this fact, along with my disdain for their use of rocket attacks and the indiscriminate killing it ultimately leads to. This discussion must be a little too sophisticated for your dull, black & white view on such a complicated and nuanced conflict. Your inability to see the clear faults on BOTH sides shows how much of a flop your arguments really are. Perhaps that's why you seem so frustrated to the point of manipulating my words and lying about me?

I hope everyone noticed how you completely ignored my statements concerning Israel supporting a more united Palestine to push out Hamas and groups like them. Israeli lives can be saved if their government cared more about them and finding a peaceful end. Keep using Hamas as an excuse to block progress. You remain the f***ing problem that way. But isn't that what you ultimately want? So transparent.

The very fact that people like yourself are silent when Hamas is sending thousands of rockets over the border goes to show only one people in this conflict has human rights in your opinion.

Are you just dense, slow, or purposefully ignorant of my statements, to excuse you in saying such crap like that? I am not SILENT about rocket attacks. I am not silent on Hamas being a disgusting player in this conflict who DO use indiscriminate killing to defend themselves just like Israel does. I think your zealot-blinkers are on full blast when you are reading my posts, and you do very little in addressing the points I make. I'm sure that's mainly due to your inability to form a sensible retort, or even remotely understand my point of view without completely manipulating and lying about what I say.

How much more EXPLICIT do I have to be? WTF!? Can you not READ?

People who support Hamas are morally bankrupt and should be marginalized and completely denounced. They don't value life and will sacrifice innocent people to achieve their perceived "righteous" goal of defeating their enemies, both in Palestine and Israel. Hamas are also BLOOD-THIRSTY in their actions of killing indiscriminately. The "blood-thirsty" label isn't exclusive and I find it sadly amusing you're so upset by my earlier use of it. It's sickening that people like Hamas are getting ANY say in the outcome of this conflict. - MY words posted on Nov 30 HERE on this forum. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=24112

I have contempt for both YOU (supportors of Israeli terror attacks) and Islamist groups who inflict terror attacks on Israel and those who support them.

Two despicable groups, too arrogant to take seriously, and too blinded by their own demented points of view, empty of any sense of justice for ALL life. - MY words posted on Nov 30 HERE on this forum. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=24112

I reiterated this AGAIN in a different post below. Because you Zionists can't hear it enough? I hoping, with repetition, it'll sink in eventually. Or perhaps not. *shrugs* The problem you have with me is that I DO condemn both sides and that really bothers you, doesn't it? LOL

Hamas are full of s***. Who are you arguing with?

Yes that is disgusting. But unlike you, I'm not deluded enough to come into this debate thinking either side has clean hands. Hamas are utter bullcrap with the stupid and vicious stuff they say. How are the Zionist creeps any different?

- MY words posted on Nov 30 in a different post.

There are more posts that I have previously made denouncing Hamas. There aren't any people arguing against that fact. People here accept Hamas are abhorrently WRONG in how they deal with Israeli aggression. The only debatable point here is coming from the Zionist-lobby on DU suggesting they stand with clean hands, innocent of indiscriminate killing at a much HIGHER degree due to the sheer scale and DISPROPORTION of their attacks. You people are actually claiming the high ground? HA! In reality, the people ordering the bombings in Gaza, and those who SUPPORT it, are just as f***ed up as Hamas and anyone who supports THEM. << I came into this debate saying exactly that. Whether you want to accept it or not. Stay mad.

[shira]

99. No,it's not. Here's the proof....

1. Before November 2012, or in the week leading up to this last war (when hundreds of rockets were shot) show me where you condemned Hamas' rockets as war crimes.

2. Before 2012, where do show any empathy or sympathy for Israeli victims of rocket attacks?

3. Before 2012, where do you show contempt for what Hamas does to its own people (child abuse, child militants, anti-gay, anti-women, anti-christian)? In fact, before being prompted and having to grumble about it, when have you ever specifically called out Hamas for using their population as one big human shield, wanting to maximize civilian casualties for PR purposes? On your own, without being asked and having to grumble some denunciation?


Go on. Prove me wrong.

[KimonoGirl]

100. You are a certified FLOP.

Wow, you're obviously done. Your barrel is well and truly scraped.

So you're retrospectively trying to prove I support Hamas by my lack of posts pre-2012 even though I only registered to DU less than 2 months ago? Mostly because I wanted access to DU during the busy times (Presidential Debates) and heavy traffic to DU blocked the site to non-registered members. That's what prompted me to join. I mostly lurk and read the debates raging on. My limit of stomaching your BS, and others like you, finally reached maximum so I jumped into the debate very recently. You're using my timing against me? LMAO

Even though, right in front of your bias blinkered eyes, my statements disproving EVERYTHING you've accused me of is right there. Retrospectively disqualifying my opinions is such a dicky, Romney-esque kind of move. Pathetic.

So when are you going to disavow your pro-terror-cheerleading ways? Unlike you, I don't support killing innocent people, whichever side they happen to be on. It's people like you who will always be a part of the bloody problem.

Grumble about what? You tried to manipulate and lie about what I think. I have never and will never support the actions of Hamas or the Zionist Israeli government, who are one in the same to me. No one is defending Hamas. Your ilk is defending Israel's terrorism. Hamas terrorize a civilian population with rockets and Israel shoot bullets and bombs into civilian populations. I don't care what putrid excuse you or any other terrorist-loving person can fart out to justify EITHER side.

The best part of your latest unhinged post... You really think I'm afraid to speak my mind? The way you guilt-trip people in debates, manipulating their words, and when you're clearly losing... you start making shit up. Haha!

You're the only person here defending and supporting acts of terror.

[shira]

101. Ad hominems are about all you've got.

I don't expect people like you to ever condemn Hamas or the PLO on your own w/o being called out on your views first. At most on your own it's a few lines and then the other 99.9% is ripping into Israel. You don't get points for that.

FWIW, Israel is adhering to Geneva Law WRT combat. They are allowed to defend their citizens. According to the Geneva Conventions, Hamas is responsible for their civilians' deaths due to human shielding. That's just a fact.

I understand you cannot ever admit to such a thing, which basically proves my point. You are doing Hamas' hasbara when you accuse Israel of crimes that Hamas is responsible for. You're running interference for Hamas when you deny their human shielding strategy has led to all civilian deaths during the last war. You do Palestinians no favor when you do this.

Hamas is clearly victimizing them when using them as shields. Hamas can only get away with what they do (and they'll keep doing it, committing double-war crimes) with the help of nice "progressives" like yourself. And with the help of far righting fascists who hate Israel because....well, that's what they do.

[azurnoir]

102. so IOW Israel is not responsible for its own actions

Israel is not responsible for the deaths of civilians in Gaza, but Palestinians are 100% responsible for all of the civilian deaths on both sides?

[shira]

103. Geneva Law says the party shielding themselves is responsible for their deaths...

The civilian targets are legit military targets.

Of course, there's no point discussing this with you since you deny Hamas does it.

[azurnoir]

105. well then in that case then Jerusalem Dimona and Tel Aviv

are all legitimate targets as all of them have military targets glad we got that straight thanks

[shira]

107. Jerusalem & Tel Aviv are legit targets......why?

No one argues Gaza City is a legit target, but here you are with Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.

[azurnoir]

109. all three have military/government targets

but to take it a step further any bank in Israel that has military/ government accounts is also a target, unless of course there is a different standard for Israel than Gaza

[KimonoGirl]

108. More Pro-Israeli-Terrorism cheerleading from you.

What Israel is doing is NOT self-defence but pure provocation and AGGRESSION. The siege is just your government's way of enacting collective punishment on a civilian population that will GUARANTEE continued attacks from Hamas. That's what Israel WANTS. More conflict. So they can continue building settlements and stealing disputed land. The Israeli settlement policy is a war crime under the Fourth Geneva Convention and its protocols.

I tire of talking to someone like you who will not denounce the terrorism and the Apartheid-esque conditions the freakshow currently running the Israeli government are enforcing. In fact, you support it. How are you any better than a Hamas supporter? You both justify killing innocent to achieve whatever perverted goal you want to see done.

WHEN Palestine files War Crimes against Israel in the International Criminal Court, you'll have no choice but to see what the whole World already knows.

[shira]

110. Kimono, do you agree it's a war crime for Hamas to shield themselves....

Last edited Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:44 PM - Edit history (2)

...among civilians, and shoot rockets from densely populated neighborhoods?

The Geneva Convention states when a party does that, it's not just a war crime but that civilian casualties as a result of shielding is, in this case, Hamas' fault.

Do you disagree, and if so, why?

I'd say that if you disagree and wish to put 100% of the blame on Israel when International Law states otherwise is your attempt to run interference for Hamas, giving them the green light to victimize Palestinians more as they use them as shields. This is beyond deplorable if this depraved view is in fact what you believe. How would I be wrong?

[KimonoGirl]

111. Hamas' methods of warfare are completely WRONG

The mere fact that they are firing rockets AT civilian populations is a crime in itself. WHO is defending Hamas? You really need to stop trying to turn this discussion into some kind of defence of Hamas. You're wasting your time and I see right through your tactics.

What you are DEFLECTING from: My objections with Israel's methods of attack << THAT is what we are disputing and disagreeing on. Why do you keep trying to bring up Hamas and compare Israel to them? Is that really the standard you wish to use to justify Israel's actions? No different than a terrorist group then? Exactly what I thought.

And it's really sad how much you pretend to care about these "innocent victimized Palestinians".

What about those Palestinians, the vast majority of the dead, who ended up that way from Israeli bombs and bullets? They don't matter.

[shira]

113. But Hamas is not shielding themselves & victimizing Palestinians in your view?

You don't think they bear any blame for Palestinian civilian deaths?

I'm asking b/c it seems you're so hellbent on ripping into Israel that you'll deliberately ignore or explain away what Hamas is doing. When you do this, you're turning your back on the Palestinians you purport to care about while tacitly supporting Hamas' vile acts against them. I'm pointing to your hypocrisy as I don't claim to be pro-Palestinian, but neither do I wish any innocents ill intent. You don't seem to care about them at all - when you absolve Hamas for deliberately victimizing them.

It's hard to believe a "supporter" of Palestinians will look the other away from Hamas' war crimes against their people just so you can continue to blast Israel. It's shameful. How do you explain being okay with Hamas' deliberate strategy of endangering Palestinian children and using them as political pawns & shields for sick PR and demonization? This is why I don't believe any of your "lot" is pro-Palestinian in any way. You just hate Israel and its supporters. I'm sure Hamas appreciates your efforts while innocent Palestinians continue to be victimized by them.

But maybe I'm wrong and you can correct me. So once again, are you denying Hamas' shielding strategy and absolving them of any blame for Palestinian civilian deaths?

[KimonoGirl]

114. They do bare blame. They are a f***ing terrorist group!

How much more clear does it have to be spelt out to you.

Hamas do NOTHING to help the people of Gaza and I have stated this MANY times already. Their tactics are stupidly predictable, have minimal impact, and put the lives of innocent people in danger. They give Israel the excuse to kill Palestinians. Whether Hamas operating within civilian populations or on military compounds (that make them an easy target) either way they lose. Firing rockets achieves NOTHING for the Palestinian people. They make their plight even worse because their enemy has no sense of morality or integrity for human life. If they did, this stupid conflict would be over by now.

I'm not ignoring what Hamas does. I have CONDEMNED it as terrorism. You're problem with me is that I reserve that same judgement for Israel and THEIR terrorism against Palestinians. The only person being hypocritical here is YOU, from the very beginning.

"I don't claim to be pro-Palestinian, but neither do I wish any innocents ill intent."

What complete and total BS that is. ^^^ Aren't you one of the Zionists on this forum that argued Palestinians are inherently violent? Thinking something so stupid, must ease your misguided concious when you have to spend hours embarrassing yourself by defending Israel's terrorism. To people like you, Palestinians aren't good enough people to deserve to live. That's why YOU support COLLECIVE PUNISHMENT, don't you? That's why it's so much easier to yearn for ground troops into Gaza so your country can put more bullets into more Palestinians. What kind of f***ed up people get depressed/mad that more war was averted with a ceasefire? It says a lot about the Israeli soldiers and their eagerness to kill. With this kind of mentality... how are they any different from Hamas?

[shira]

115. They bear the blame due to shielding, correct? When the IDF targets Hamas....

...and civilians happen to be killed, that's not all on Israel, is it? Hamas is responsible in a large way for that, are they not?

Just making sure we agree.

======

That you reserve the same judgment for Israel as you do Hamas is ridiculous. What Israel does isn't comparable to what Hamas does.

1. Hamas tries to maximize civilian casualties (to Palestinians) for PR, demonization purposes - especially children. I never see your ilk condemning Hamas' efforts at child sacrifice or calling on Hamas to stop committing those war crimes.

2. Israel tries to minimize civilian casualties and their record WRT civilians vs. combatants killed in war reflects that. Their 1:1 ratio is far better than that of NATO, the USA, and UK.

======

I really don't wish innocent Palestinians any ill intent. I'm proud of Israel's attempts to minimize civilian casualties while defending their own civilians from rocket attacks.

As to collective punishment, that's what you and yours are for when you demand that Israel not attack Hamas for firing thousands of rockets into Israel. Better (for you) that millions of Israelis are collectively punished (terrorized) and hiding in bomb shelters than Israel responding to those rocket attacks.

[Recursion]

36. Because an independent Palestine would be armed and able to defend its land and people

There never really was a significant faction in Israel that wanted a two-state solution, or at least wanted it enough to actually make the concessions necessary. This is all theater. Israel isn't leaving the territories and we have a decades-long South Africa-type story ahead.

[hack89]

81. An armed Palestine would be reduced to smoking rubble

because they would not be able to resist attacking Israel. The difference being as a sovereign nation they would open themselves up to the full military might of Israel. International law is very clear what happens when countries attack other countries.

[Recursion]

82. A legitimized Hizballah did pretty well

A fully-equipped Hamas and/or Al Aqsa Martys' Brigade could do the same in the south and east: notice that the north is actually fairly peaceful right now because there was sufficient military force to at least present a check to Israel.

The disparity of available force breeds violence. Hamas launches rockets because it knows Israel will overreact and every Palestinian killed by the IDF weakens Fatah. If Hamas were better-equipped and capable of actually threatening Israel militarily, things would get a lot more stable.

[Recursion]

84. Racism doesn't help

Hamas ever resisting the temptation to attack Israel - it is in their DNA

Ah, yes, those bloody-minded Arabs.

Sickening. (Hint: your DNA doesn't put you in Hamas, but it does make you Arabic.)

Anyways, you're factually wrong: Hamas didn't launch rockets for years, and did a fairly decent job at rooting out the Islamic Jihad people in Gaza who were. US and Israeli racism may keep them from seeing the difference between two Arabs (even on a liberal board like this we have people regularly posting about the Palestinians' "Arab brethren" in Egypt, and Egyptians aren't even Arabs), but the difference is there.

[hack89]

85. Hamas does not represent the majority of Palestinians

they are a terrorist organization - violence is all they know. It has nothing to do with their racial makeup.

You are trying too hard here. I support the Palestinians and the two state solution. Which is why I oppose Hamas - there will be no peace with them in control.

[Recursion]

86. So you just pretend they didn't stop launching rockets for years?

Are we Republicans now? Making up facts when they don't fit our theories?

Or do you just not care that they stopped launching rockets and cut down on the rockets that IJ was launching?

[hack89]

87. And once they acquired more powerful weapons they started again.

which is why it a fantasy to believe that arming Hamas will somehow lessen the violence.

And lets not forget the ambushes on the borders and the kidnapping attempts. Gaza has never been peaceful.

[Recursion]

88. Calling the capture of POWs "kidnapping" is kind of silly, but OK

We have no idea when they did and didn't acquire the weapons, but we do know that after the election they said they would stop the violence, and they did, until the blockade began.

[hack89]

89. POWs implies war - is Hamas waging war against Israel? nt

[Recursion]

91. Yes. Blockades are acts of war, too. They are at war. (nt)

[hack89]

93. So then let them fight it out. nt

[hack89]

90. The blockade began because the rockets never completely stopped. nt

[Recursion]

92. I have a bridge to sell you (nt)

[hack89]

94. You just said that Hamas is waging war against Israel

which is certainly supported by their actions - including the rocket attacks. Wars ebb and flow as sides take time to rearm and reorganize - Gaza is no different.

[Shaktimaan]

112. Are you serious?

The months abd years following the elections is when the number of rocket attacks increased exponentially. The only reason sanctions and then the blockade were instituted at all was because of the unending rocket and artillery strikes, beginning the very same day that israel's withdrawal was completed.

Hamas NEVER enforced a policy of 'no rockets' until the sporatically followed post-cast lead lulls.

[Dick Dastardly]

116. Hizballah did not do very well by any military standard.

They got the shit kicked out of them and caused Lebanon to suffer due to their actions and tactics. It would have been even much worse if Israel had not practiced restraint and taken its gloves off. Its peaceful right now because they dont want another ass kicking and have admitted as much.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

23. Three cheers for Palestine!

[Walk away]

26. Now if they could only have a homeland!

[azurnoir]

58. seems like some here are tasting the grapes and finding quite sour n/t

[holdencaufield]

73. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.

The PLO -- precursor to Fatah and Hamas -- was granted non-Member observer status in 1974 (when Yassier Arafat walking into the UN General Assembly packing heat).

What -- if anything -- has changed?

[kayecy]

79. The US supports Israel at the UNGA but then gets kicked in the teeth.......

Nentanyahu must have been feeling desperate:

Hillary Clinton warns Israel on settler homes The US has criticized Israel's decision to authorize the construction of 3,000 more housing units in occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said that "these activities set back the cause of a negotiated peace". The White House had earlier described the proposal as "counter-productive".
.
.

Addressing a Washington audience that included Israel's Defense Minister Ehud Barak and Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, Mrs Clinton said the vote "should give all of us pause. All sides need to consider carefully the path ahead".

The Palestinians had to be persuaded, she said, that negotiations with Israel were the only path to an independent state.

It was in Israel's interest, she added, to make generous steps towards Palestinians in the West Bank as a bulwark for Israeli security, "whether or not there is a comprehensive agreement in the near future".
.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20564484

[oberliner]

96. Netanyahu needs to go

I really hope that some kind of moderately center-left coalition is able to score an upset victory in the coming elections.