Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumWhen Will the Economic Blockade of Gaza End?
President Obama and Bibi Netanyahu are on the same page when it comes to the justification for Israel's bombardment of Gaza. Netanyahu : "No country in the world would agree to a situation in which its population lives under a constant missile threat." Obama: "There's no country on earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders."
It's true that if, say, Canada were lobbing missiles into the US, the US wouldn't tolerate it. But here's another thing the US wouldn't tolerate: If Canada imposed a crippling economic blockade, denying America the import of essential goods and hugely restricting American exports. That would be taken as an act of war, and America would if necessary respond with force--by, perhaps, lobbing missiles into Canada.
This is the situation Gaza has faced for years: a crippling economic blockade imposed by Israel. Under international pressure, Israel has relaxed the import restrictions, but even so such basic things as cement, gravel, and steel are prohibited from entering Gaza. The rationale is that these items are "dual use" and could be put to military ends. But this logic doesn't explain the most devastating part of the blockade--the severe restrictions on Gaza's exports.
Gazans can't export anything to anyone by sea or air, and there are extensive constraints on what they can export by land. They can't even sell things to their fellow Palestinians in the West Bank. According to the Israeli NGO Gisha, the number of truckloads of goods that leave Gaza each month is two percent of what it was before the blockade was imposed. (A black market trade via tunnels to Egypt has taken up some, but by no means all, of the slack.)
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/11/when-will-the-economic-blockade-of-gaza-end/265452/#.UKrrFJ50N7M.twitter
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ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)Israel has amply demonstrated it can live in peace with its neighbors
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)trying to do that would have meant allowing people to enter and leave Gaza at will, NEVER imposing restrictions on food imports, allowing Gaza to control its own airspace(and therefore NOT making commercial airline service to and from Gaza impossible) and letting the fishermen of Gaza fish up to twenty miles from the shore as they were promised they'd be able to, rather than restricting those fishermen to only a three-mile radius in which the Israelis knew that fishing was impossible. Living in peace does NOT mean making your neighbor live at your mercy.
Gaza was NEVER given a chance to breathe. Not for one minute. And the rockets had nothing to do with it.
Living in peace with Gaza would have meant actually ceasing hostilities.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Anwar Sadat agreed to tell the Palestinians to, effectively, fuck off and die. After Camp David, Sadat NEVER pushed for Palestinian self-determination again, for the rest of his life. And he never would have. He totally capitulated to Begin on the issue.
That's one major difference.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)now we hear all the wailing about rockets but how many Israelis have been killed or injured want to compare that to the numbers when Israel engaged Egypt?
hack89
(39,171 posts)why was Hamas compelled to shot rockets at Israel as soon as Israel withdrew from Gaza? I don't understand why Hamas did not choose to build on that withdrawal as an opportunity to build better relationships with Israel. There was no economic blockade until the rockets started.
Those rockets strike me as fundamentally irrational if peace and a Palestinian state is what Hamas desires.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)so it was Hamas in 2005 because that was when the election where in Hamas took the majority of seats in the Palestinian Parliamentary election happened right or was that when the coup that put Hamas in power in Gaza was, you have to remind me as it's all down that blurry memory hole ?
or so your hoping ?
hack89
(39,171 posts)so I don't see your point unless it is Hamas has never intended to make peace with Israel.
Your point is well take though - Hamas has never made the transition from terrorist group to serious political party. They never skipped a beat after winning the election did they.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)immediately following the withdrawal? The quartet did not impose any economic sanctions until 2006 following Hamas' election. There was a nine month period where no restrictions were imposed aside from temorarily closing the border to Israel following rocket strikes and mortar attacks.
Entering and leaving Gaza had nothing to do with Israel, it did not control the Philadelphia route to Egypt. That was controlled by the PA, Egypt and EU observers. Israel had no hand in it at all.
Aside from that you should look at what you are saying objectively. You have a list of demands that you insist must be met in their entirety, all at once, without any sort of movement on the Palestinian's side towards peace, or else Israel could not be said to have tried to live in peace. Which just does not make any sense. To say that Israel's concession were not overtures to attain peace because they did not fulfill 100% of your arbitrary demands is just silly. Gaza and Israel had been at war for many decades. Permanent peace comes in stages, as it was outlined in the road map. And to say that giving anything other than EVERYTHING is the equivalent of giving nothing is quite unfair. After all, there is a huge difference between restricting Gaza's airspace (for well deserved security concerns), and actively firing rockets at civilians. Especially since all evidence points to the likelihood that any and all concessions made by Israel would then be used against Israel in any way possible by hamas, IJ and friends.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)got it okay then
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)The Oslo Accords interim peace agreements between the Palestinian Authority and Israel specify Israeli security control over Gazan airspace and coastal waters.
Not to mention, this was a treaty that was agreed to with the assumption of peaceful diplomacy, not terrorism and violent coups in place of elections. So even under the best of circumstances those two aspects of border security was always to fall under Israel's purview. And the present situation can hardly be considered the best of circumstances.
Are you seriously making the argument that Israel's supposed rejection of peace is evidenced by the fact that it observed the terms agreed to under the last negotiated peace treaty?
I would say that demanding Israel make concessions that were specifically allocated to it under Oslo before admitting that they are attempting to live in peace is to hold Israel to an unfair standard expected of no other state.
And besides that they are entirely arbitrary anyway. Why is control over Gaza's airspace so important for a place that has no airport? They have NO AIRPORT! Yet you don't think that demanding control of the airspace to be arbitrary?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)here is Oslo on Gaza
The Treaty provided for limited Palestinian self-rule in the West Bank and Gaza Strip within five years. Pursuant to this agreement, Israel withdrew from Jericho in the West Bank in early 1995 and partly from the Gaza Strip in September 1995. Another part of the agreement established the Palestinian Civil Police Force.
This page was last modified on 28 August 2012 at 09:34.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza%E2%80%93Jericho_Agreement
and tell us how is it that Gaza has no airport
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Are what unimportant?
I have no idea what your point is.
Gaza doesn't have an airport because they got it blowed up by my recollection. Does that somehow make the fact that they lack an airport less true or more relevant to your insistence that without control over their own airspace peace can't be achieved. Not even that... that Israel can't be said to even have tried for peace!
Even though Israeli control of said airspace was written into the last peace treaty. It's funny. By your standards Israel could follow that treaty to the letter and you would argue that they haven't even tried to make peace because they failed to meet your arbitrary benchmarks. Benchmarks that the Palestinians themselves were willing to sign away. But I suppose you are better at determining what the standards should be than the Israelis and Palestinians and their silly peace treaty, right?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)well okay then I have nothing to add to that statement 
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Now do you have anything to add in response to my comments on the topic we were actually discussing?
Purveyor
(29,876 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)from outside its borders."
Hmmmmm...
The USA presently uses drones to attack, and kill foreign citizens...mistakenly thinking they are bad guys of course, in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somalia and Yemen.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/aug/02/us-drone-strikes-data
Just thought that I would add this for perspective.
kayecy
(1,417 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)natural gas deposit that was discovered off the coast of Gaza over a decade ago?
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)and Israel still withdrew and handed sovereignty of Gaza over to the Palestinians.
What do the sanctions have to do with the deposit?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)since they were imposed by Israel and the Quartet.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Published:
1 Jan 2011
Since the beginning of the second intifada, Israel has imposed harsh restrictions on freedom of movement to and from the Gaza Strip. As part of this policy, Israel has almost completely severed the Gaza Strip from the West Bank, causing Palestinian movement between the two areas to fall drastically. Entry of residents of the Gaza Strip to Israel for family visits or to enable spouses to live together is forbidden, and family visits to Gaza by Arab citizens and residents of Israel have been reduced to a minimum. Israel has made it difficult for Gaza residents to go abroad, and many have been denied exit altogether.
Import and export of goods is limited, and frequently stopped completely. In addition, only a small number of Gazans have been allowed to work in Israel, and tens of thousands of Gazans have lost their source of income. The restrictions on movement of goods and workers have caused a deep recession in the Strip, impaired Gazans' ability to work, and brought about a sharp decrease in the standard of living. The poverty rate has risen by more than 40 percent.
In September 2005, Israel completed the "Gaza disengagement plan," which included dismantlement of the settlements in the Gaza Strip, evacuation of the settlers to Israel, and withdrawal of the army from the Strip. After the plan was completed, Israel issued an order declaring the end of the military government in the Gaza Strip and claimed it was no longer responsible for the safety and well-being of the residents there. In doing so, Israel ignored the harsh reality in the Gaza Strip following its prolonged occupation, the closure it had imposed on the area for more than a decade, and the dependence of the Palestinian economy on the Israeli labor market and trade with Israel.
The army's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and dismantlement of the settlements resulted in considerable improvement in the freedom of movement of Palestinians within the Strip. However, Israel continued to control the crossings into Israel and the air and sea space of the Strip, and decisions regarding the movement of persons and goods into and from the Strip remained in its hands. Although Rafah Crossing on the Egyptian border operated for seven months after the disengagement, in accord with an agreement reached by Israel and the Palestinian Authority, enabling movement to Egypt, it was closed after the abduction of the soldier Gilad Shalit in June 2006.
In June 2007, after Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip, Israel further tightened its control of the crossings. Since then, it has been almost impossible for Palestinians to enter or leave the Strip, or to export or import goods. Three months after the Hamas takeover, in response to the ongoing firing of Qassam rockets at Israel, Israel's security cabinet declared the Strip a “hostile entity” and decided on collective punitive measures, including reducing the supply of electricity and fuel to the Strip.
The siege on the Gaza Strip has led to a substantial drop in the availability of necessities and medicines there and a sharp rise in their prices. Most factories and hundreds of businesses have closed. In 2009, the number of unemployed persons in the Gaza Strip rose to 140,000, some 40 percent of the workforce there. This policy infringes the right of Palestinians in the Strip to work and earn a living with dignity and their right to an adequate standard of living.
After implementation of the disengagement plan, some Palestinian organizations in the Strip continued to fired rockets and mortars at Israeli communities close to the Green Line, in violation of fundamental principles of international humanitarian law, under which intentional gunfire at civilians constitutes a war crime. From September 2005 to the end of November 2009, 11 Israelis were killed by the rocket and mortar fire.
For its part, Israel has employed a variety of means, among them artillery fire at what the army refers to as “Qassam launching spaces” and areas near the border that are classified as “death zones.” The open-fire regulations permit firing at Palestinians found in these zones even if they are not life-threatening. Israel has increased its targeted killing of Palestinians it alleges are involved in attacks against Israel. The targeted-killing operations have also killed many bystanders. According to B'Tselem's figures, since the implementation of the disengagement plan, Israel has killed 52 bystanders (27 of them minors) in these operations.
Since the disengagement, the army has conducted several ground-forces operations in the Strip. For example, following the abduction of the soldier Gilad Shalit on 26 June 2006, Israel initiated an extensive operation, which was given the name Summer Rains. In the operation, the army bombed civilian infrastructure and made incursions into crowded population centers. Since then, Israel has attacked the Gaza Strip several times.
In all these actions (until 26 December 2008), Israel killed 522 Palestinians who were not taking part in the hostilities. This number included 195 minors, 49 women, and 25 men over age 50.
On 27 December 2008, Israel began its most extensive operation, which it called Cast Lead. Operation Cast Lead continued until 18 January 2009 and caused unprecedented harm to the civilian population - 1,389 Palestinians were killed, including 759 civilians who did not take part in the hostilities, and thousands were wounded. Israel also caused enormous damage to buildings and infrastructure, causing electricity, water, and sewage facilities, which were on the verge of collapse before the operation, to cease functioning completely. According to UN figures, Israel destroyed over 3,500 residential dwellings, leaving large numbers of persons homeless.
Contrary to Israel's contention that, following the disengagement, it is no longer obligated to care for the safety and welfare of Gaza residents, international law imposes certain obligations. Under human rights law, Israel is required to respect the rights of Gaza residents in matters in which control remains in its hands. These obligations result from the scope of actual control over major facets of the residents' lives that Israel continued to hold after the disengagement, and from the almost total dependence of the Strip's economy on the Israeli economy, a result of the prolonged occupation.
When an armed conflict is taking place in the Gaza Strip, Israel is also bound by the provisions of international humanitarian law, under which civilians must remain outside the cycle of the hostilities. Two fundamental principles - distinction and proportionality - are intended to ensure this. Under these principles, it is absolutely forbidden to intentionally attack civilians, and when an attack is aimed at a military object, the anticipated harm to civilians may not be excessive in comparison with the direct military advantage anticipated. In addition, during the hostilities, Israel must provide special protection to certain groups, among them the sick, the wounded, and children, and must enable medicines and necessary foodstuffs to feely enter the area and medical teams to treat the sick and wounded.
http://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip
