A call to U.S. progressive Jews: Support Israel's 'get tough' policy in Gaza

[Mosby]

The government of Israel has launched a military operation in Gaza. It is an operation that is justified, and in fact overdue. American Jews across the political spectrum should be offering their support.

I am worried at this moment about Jews in the progressive camp. This segment of American Jewry has struggled in the past with Gaza, dividing over whether to back Operation Cast Lead in 2008. Reservations about Israel’s use of force in Gaza have continued. Gil Troy, writing several weeks ago in the Daily Beast’s Open Zion Blog, noted that progressive Jews had expressed little outrage about the suffering of Israelis from rocket attacks in southern Israel. Troy made a strong argument, and I wonder if this attitude will now translate into opposition to Israel’s current operations in Gaza.

I hope not. Progressives, of course, want the use of force to be a last resort. But it would be hard to imagine a case where Israel was more patient than Gaza. Sderot and the surrounding communities have been subjected to missile fire from Gaza for 11 years. With sickening regularity, rockets fall on civilian centers and hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens flee to shelters. Israel responds, usually with modest force aimed at lower level operatives, the violence stops for a while, and then the cycle begins again.

Progressives should be as outraged as everyone else about this. As innumerable Israeli leaders have said, no other civilized country in the world would tolerate for a week what Israel has tolerated for a decade; a single rocket aimed at an American city would call forth a far more drastic response than anything that Israel has attempted or even contemplated. And yet, incredibly, despite her tough talk, Israel has tolerated these attacks – with the exception of Cast Lead, which brought a respite from the violence, although only for a while.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/a-call-to-u-s-progressive-jews-support-israel-s-get-tough-policy-in-gaza.premium-1.478056

[Lionessa]

1. OMG, so Israel gets to cut off all supplies to Gaza, and folks in Gaza respond, and

this moronic journalist thinks Israel has been patient?

Wow, what a clusterfuck of a concept.

[Mosby]

4. this op/ed was written by Rabbi Joffe

Who is the spiritual leader for nearly 1 million American Reform Jews.

What do you suppose Israel should do about the hundreds of rockets being fired into Israel? Just lay back and enjoy it?

[earthside]

5. Hmmm ... how could we get Palestinians to stop retaliating ...

... for their forced captivity in the world's largest concentration camp?

[Mosby]

7. 5 posts in we get a Holocaust reference

Sad.

[earthside]

8. Okay. How about this ...

Hmmm ... how could we get Palestinians to stop retaliating ...

... for their forced captivity in the world's largest 'reservation'?

Sad, indeed.

[Recursion]

9. Actually it's a Boer War reference

That's where the term came from.

[Mosby]

24. connotations change over time

Just like with the swastika.

Question, are you really saying that the poster was referring to the boer war when s/he used the term?

[hrmjustin]

27. What about the people of Gaza?

Why are they being treated sub-human? I support Israels right to defend itself, but Israel has a lot to answer for in this matter.
Stand with Israel my friend if that is where your heart is, but You have to really take a hard look at the policies of that country. Pray for all the people of the region. Pray that all the bombs stop falling.

[Mosby]

31. the residents of Gaza voted in Hamas

And I have no doubt that in retrospect many Gazans think it was a mistake.

The good people of Gaza have the power to change this situation, just like others have done elsewhere in the ME.

[hrmjustin]

33. They were driven to hamas because nobody gave a damn about them.

Hamas is evil, but the fact that people care less about them is evil too. These people need help not bombs. Israel needs peace with Palestine! I pray that this ends soon, and that the people of Gaza are given the help that they need. The bombs won't stop until this issue is addressed. But to be fair the people of Israel have plenty of legit complaints.

[Scootaloo]

76. That's a fucking disgusting argument, Mosby.

Last edited Fri Nov 16, 2012, 06:51 AM - Edit history (1)

You're saying that the people of Gaza should be brutalized and killed because of which party won their elections six years ago. That they deserve to watch their children die because of that. That it's their fault that Israel is bombing them.

You hear the same argument out of abusive relationships; "You made me hit you. It's your own fault. if you don't stop crying, you'll get another. You can stop this any time, you know."

[Mosby]

85. the Palestinians voted in an islamic terrorist group

What the fuck did they think would happen?

[Fantastic Anarchist]

93. It's sick that you still don't get it.

[rDigital]

119. +1000 Precisely. nt

[King_David]

128. +1

[azurnoir]

78. the vote for Hamas in 2006 was in both the West Bank and Gaza and for the Palestinian Parliament

Hamas won the majority of seats in that election, Hamas was not voted to lead the Palestinian people anymore than the Republican Congress rules the US, Hamas took over Gaza via a coup and short of a bloody civil war or elections Palestinians living in Gaza have little control and Hamas does not want or seem to allow election because they would lose

[shira]

89. Agreed. It's not the fault of Palestinians in Gaza that Hamas....

...took over via a coup.

Must be a full moon, eclipse, and pending earthquake happening tonight as we actually agree on something.

[Scootaloo]

111. Thank you, Shira

And now that we have found a point of consensus with one another, let us go our separate ways and scrub thoroughly with lye and pumice.

[shira]

124. Oh, I'm with you in that I agree Palestinians knew exactly who they were....

...voting for when they voted Hamas in. But I think Hamas would've pulled the coup regardless - whether they won or lost. That's just how they roll.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

92. So, we bomb people now depending on how they vote?

Sick.

"The residents of Gaza voted in Hamas." And it rolled off your keyboard in such a matter-of-fact style. So they deserve to get bombed now.

Disgusting.

[Mosby]

101. I didn't say anything like that

Hamas actively engages in terrorist attacks on Israel primarily in the form of rocket attacks.

This was facilitated by the election in 2006, which set the stage for a coup by Hamas resulting in even more attacks on their neighbor.

Palestinians bear some responsibility in this, but I am certainly not saying that collective punishment or whatever else is warranted due to a persons vote.

[Scootaloo]

37. What would you call...

A militarily-enforced enclosure of a subordinate ethnic group by a dominant ethnic group? An enclosure that only gains resources by the whim of that dominant ethnic group and is completely vulnerable to attacks, reprisals, and killings by that dominant group? The people within this enclosure have no system of redress, no appeal, no escape from it.

We saw 'em in the American Indian wars. we saw 'em in the Boer wars. We saw them in World War 1 in Turkey. We saw them in World War 2, as well, under the hands of the Germans, the Japanese, and our own nation. Through the span of the Soviet Empire, we saw them in East Siberia. In the 1990's, we saw them in Former Yugoslavia. We saw them in the stadiums of Pinochet's Chile.

If only the situation bothered you as much as the term used to describe it did.

[King_David]

50. Nice rant but did you forget about Gaza's border with Egypt?

No escape indeed .

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

67. Wow. A grain of truth.

Hmmm... the subtext seems to suggest that the Palestinians should flee to Egypt since the are blockaded on three sides by Israel. Would this freedom to move be one way only , and would that open up a lot of new development opportunities for Israeli settlements that could be disputed later.

[King_David]

68. Nope

It means that movement of goods and people is possible if Egypt allowed it.

Last time Egypt did allow it they had a bunch of terroristd running amock in the Sinai Peninsula.

But due to Apartheid Egypt has again made it difficult for their brothers in Gaza.

Muslim Brotherhood (governing party) in Egypt has an offshoot in Gaza called Hamas (governing party).

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

70. That's alright King D. I've got your number.

[King_David]

71. Not sure what that means,

As I said we got very different sense of humor....

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

82. I believe that you do, but if you wish to be disingenuous

there's not a lot anybody can do about it.

[Scootaloo]

72. I didn't. It's simply irrelevant.

The Rafah crossing has been closed for a while, owing to the attacks in the Sinai. Do you suppose that Egypt is going to throw the crossing open while Israel is attacking Gaza? oh, I can imagine the "EGYPT IS LETTING HAMAS SEEK REFUGE!" rhetoric from the "supporters" of Israel around here, if that were to happen.

Your argument amounts to stating that mine is invalid because the camp wardens wear a different uniform on one side of the prison.

[King_David]

80. Yes I can see how inconvenient it is for your argument. nt

[Scootaloo]

86. If there were a free and open border, maybe. But there's not

And there's still the matter of the other three borders, and standing Israeli policy of killing lots of Gazans before Israeli elections, and the inability for redress or appeal for the harm caused.

Like I said, just because the guards along one fence of the camp wear a different uniform, doesn't actually change the situation.

[abq e streeter]

28. And even sadder that it was so totally predictable.

[Scootaloo]

69. And the Pope is the spiritual leader for 77 million American Catholics

Doesn't mean that progressive Catholics are going to rush to join him in defending the rape of children by Catholic priests and officials. Nor the child-thefts perpetuated by the church in Ireland, Latin America, and the Phillipines.

Calling on progressives to defend the indefensible doesn't work very well. Appealing to them on grounds of religious authority is just going to be counter-productive. And progressive American Jews probably understand that killing Palestinians isn't going to save the life of any Israelis.

[shira]

20. Gaza rockets began immediately after the 2005 Israeli pullout from Gaza....

These rockets have zip to do with any blockade.

More to do with evil fuckers who want Jews dead...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

43. Stop blockading yourself. Stop blockading yourself.

If I was a Palestinian living there what are my choices?

Gaza has an Israel siege on 3 sides. Unemployment is at 40%.

So do I stay or emigrate...if I am allowed, and If I do leave will I ever be able to go back?

I can see the anger, but I don't condone the violence.

If I was a Palestinian I might feel differently.

[holdencaufield]

44. What do you call a siege on only three sides ...

... of a four-sided country?

NOT a siege.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

45. Yes or no. Does Israel Blockade Gaza. Yes or no? Yes or no?

It's a really simple question so I understand how you may get lost in the answer.

[holdencaufield]

46. Israel blockades Gaza ONLY ...

... where Israel shares a border / coast with Gaza. Israel does NOT blockade Gaza's border with Egypt.

Perhaps consulting a map would alleviate your confusion. The question is ... is EGYPT blockading Gaza?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

48. I knew you would choke on YES.

The truth is really hard for you to swallow.

Just say yes.

[holdencaufield]

49. You can say the answer is FIVE

But, it doesn't change the fact there there are only four fingers.

The answer is still "No"

[King_David]

52. Ha ha

Nice visual , I could of used it here :

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=21241

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

53. Dig those heels in baby!

The irony is that your own post says as much about your intransigence to admit what the world already knows to be true.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/18/world/middleeast/israel-counted-calories-needed-for-gazans-in-blockade.html

The blockade was imposed shortly after Hamas took over Gaza. Israel declared it a hostile territory in September 2007. Seeking to weaken the militants, it called for “severe restrictions” on civilians that included limitations on food.

Israel maintained that the blockade was necessary to weaken Hamas, but critics accused the government of taking aim at Gaza’s 1.5 million people.

Even the NYT says the word. Why are you afraid to?

[holdencaufield]

60. Perhaps you ...

... and the mathematics geniuses at the NYT can explain how Israel can surround a four-sided country on three sides?

Jews are clever -- but we can't supersede the physical properties of geometry.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

61. And yet even the NYT says the word. Why are you afraid to?

Here's more.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/20/world/meast/gaza-ship/index.html

Passengers were hoping to call attention to human rights in the Palestinian territory, which has been under an Israeli blockade since 2007.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/10/20121017115529845399.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2012/0724/Under-Israeli-blockade-of-Gaza-books-are-a-rare-cherished-commodity

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19975211


How dare they use the word "Blockade" while Israel practices the definition on the Palestinians!
I guess that it is a conspiracy against them.

[King_David]

51. Hey , no "Apartheid" in your post?

Now we getting somewhere .

Good on you.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

54. Hey, no content in yours. So the same as usual for you?

[Mosby]

56. lol.

[bowens43]

2. is this supposed to be satire??? Is this from the onion?

[Larkspur]

3. Obviously this so called jounalist doesn't know that Americans kill more of our own

via gun violence than Palestinians kill Israelis.

As innumerable Israeli leaders have said, no other civilized country in the world would tolerate for a week what Israel has tolerated for a decade; a single rocket aimed at an American city would call forth a far more drastic response than anything that Israel has attempted or even contemplated. And yet, incredibly,

Take a look at our gun death stats. I think the city of Chicago has more gun deaths than Israel experiences attacks from militant impoverished Palestinians.

[Lionessa]

10. I agree. Another aspect, it would be akin to retaliating against Mexico because

some of theirs kill some of ours in the ongoing war on drugs, which is as stupid and the Gaza blockades as far as doing anything more than forcing escalations of violence.

[aranthus]

11. No it isn't like that.

It's like what would the US do if the Mexican Army fired a few hundred rockets at San Diego because they want California and Texas back.

[Lionessa]

12. Yes it is, based on the quote in the post I was responding to.

And it was the residential area of folks known as Palestinians who have been displaced, disenfranchised, and progressively worsening treatment at the hands of a theocratic, tyrannical regime.

[King_David]

14. Israel is theocratic ?

Ha that's funny.

No wonder so many people hate Israel ..
they wrongly think The Jewish state is theocratic.

It is not ,you know.. But Gaza and Iran are.

[Scootaloo]

16. Well, between Shas and the new Likud-Kach merger... Oh, I meant "Yisrael Beitinu"

I dunno... if people in the US kept sending the likes of Rick Santorum, Pat Robertson, and Tom Tancredo to their highest offices, I'd start to wonder.

But, here's hoping that the good people of Israel recollect their marbles and find some sane candidates on their ballots in January. Which is clearly what Bieberman and the Grand Ayatollah Yishai are trying to prevent with this operation.

[shira]

18. Umm...Likud and Yisrael Beiteinu are secular. n/t

[Scootaloo]

21. So is the Republican party.

Wink wink nudge nudge, say no more, say no more!

[King_David]

36. I agree I hope so too but Yisrael Beytanu

Is not a religious party ... At all ... Disgusting right wing.. Non religious ...

[Lionessa]

17. A country where one religious group has control over others is

a theocracy in my book.

Please give me evidence of the variety and inclusiveness evident in the government, in governmental decisions, and so on.

[King_David]

38. France is in Europe not Asia even if I decide so..

And you don't get to make up definitions to your liking...no matter what it is in "your book "

theocracy[ thee-ok-ruh-see ]
noun plural the·oc·ra·cies.
1. a form of government in which God or a deity is recognized as the supreme civil ruler, the God's or deity's laws being interpreted by the ecclesiastical authorities.
2. a system of government by priests claiming a divine commission.
3. a commonwealth or state under such a form or system of government.

http://m.dictionary.com/d/?q=theocracy&o=0&l=dir

[Lionessa]

40. I believe Israel is clearly defined in #1.

Otherwise, good day.

[King_David]

47. Good Day or Good night where I am

I don't see Israel defined at all in 1.

But the way I see it , Israel is a Democratic Zionist state.

Under attack by a fanatical enemy of terrorists on its borders , wishing their destruction and without compromise.

Add to this a strange alliance of ultra right wing and left wing westerners ( and I am not talking about you or any DU member here) ,whom for a variety of reasons wish for their destruction and delegitimization of the Jewish state..

[azurnoir]

13. yep let's get tough here and do it by killing pregnant women and children

reminds me of a infamous T-shirt

The death toll in the Gaza Strip rose to 15 on Thursday as a Palestinian child succumbed to wounds sustained earlier and a man's body was found buried in the rubble of an Israeli airstrike.

Eighteen-month-old Walid al-Abadleh succumbed to his injuries sustained in an Israeli airstrike east of Khan Younis in southern Gaza early Thursday.
..............................................................................

On Wednesday evening, a pregnant woman, a 7-year-old boy and an 11-month-old baby were among at least eight Palestinians killed when Israel broke an Egypt-mediated truce by assassinating Hamas military commander Ahmad al-Jaabari.

Armed groups have fired a barrage of mortars at Israeli military sites and across the border. A rocket fired from the Gaza Strip on Thursday struck an apartment building in southern Israel, killing three Israelis.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=537864

so glad our government supports this

[shira]

19. So Israelis should just lie back and enjoy the rockets? n/t

[azurnoir]

22. perhaps Israel should have honored the Egyptian brokered cease fire

however it decided it would rather play the targeted assassination game one that also killed a pregnant women and a child

[shira]

23. Hamas broke the ceasefire. Nice try exonerating Hamas....

...in order to do what you always do: Blame Israel.

Remember a week back when Hamas hit an Israeli jeep with 4 IDF officers in it?

[azurnoir]

25. the cease fire was early THIS week

but that was a gallant attempt at obfuscation

[shira]

39. LOL. When this week? Source? n/t

[oberliner]

41. From this past Monday: "Hamas not considering ceasefire with Israel, spokesman says"

Hamas is not considering a ceasefire with Israel, a spokesman for the movement announced Monday afternoon, as Gaza’s Hamas prime minister reiterated his commitment to armed struggle in order “to liberate the land.”

“There is no talk of a ceasefire agreement with the occupation and we are committed to defending our people; we will not neglect that role,” Sami Abu Zuhri told local media in Gaza.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-not-considering-ceasefire-with-israel-spokesman-says/

November 12, 2012, 8:21 pm

That's about as early this week as one can get.

[azurnoir]

57. Phony truce may have lured Hamas man into open

n what now appears to have been a diversionary tactic, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defence Minister Ehud Barak paid a visit to the Syrian frontier in the north, hours before the air offensive began in the south.

The show of concern over errant mortar shells that have landed in the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights from Syria was widely reported during the day by Israeli media.

In fact, Israeli experts now say, the visit may have been part of a ploy to deceive Hamas into believing that a truce was in place in Gaza, so that the Israeli army could catch its target, Hamas military mastermind Ahmed Al-Jaabari.

"The sense of complacency that Barak and Netanyahu created ... brought Jaabari and his friends out of his holes and made possible the surprise attack," military affairs analyst Alex Fishman wrote in Israel's Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/15/us-palestinians-israel-deception-idUSBRE8AE16620121115

[King_David]

129. Egypt has taken to supporting terrorists in Gaza

They support Hamas , We (USA ) support Israel and now are on oppossite sides.

They (House, President,Senate) should now not treat them as Ally's, Friendly ,Useful...and drop all aid. BUT,
the peace treaty is important, so I guess they will be allowed to go rogue, for now.

[Scootaloo]

15. Or else what? Get labeled a "Disloyal / self-hating Jew"? n/t

[Mosby]

26. No, we will just revoke their LA privileges. nt.

[ellisonz]

87. +1

[Scootaloo]

112. Huh?

That one just wooshed over my head.

[Mosby]

134. .

http://hark.com/clips/nmmrdgtqbx-you-lost-all-your-l-dot-a-privileges

[Fantastic Anarchist]

96. I get called that all the time.

It's just a means of stifling debate.

[sabrina 1]

29. Looks like Netanyahu and his neocon buddies are throwing a

temper tantrum because Obama won the election. Way to turn the world against them. One day maybe the Israeli people will rid themselves of their far right, war-mongering government and maybe regain some of the respect they have lost worldwide.

[Mosby]

32. US State Dept has Israel's back

Press Statement
Mark C. Toner
Deputy SpokespersonOffice of the Spokesperson
Washington, DC
November 14, 2012

We strongly condemn the barrage of rocket fire from Gaza into southern Israel, and we regret the death and injury of innocent Israeli and Palestinian civilians caused by the ensuing violence. There is no justification for the violence that Hamas and other terrorist organizations are employing against the people of Israel. We call on those responsible to stop these cowardly acts immediately. We support Israel’s right to defend itself, and we encourage Israel to continue to take every effort to avoid civilian casualties.

Hamas claims to have the best interests of the Palestinian people at heart, yet it continues to engage in violence that is counterproductive to the Palestinian cause. Attacking Israel on a near daily basis does nothing to help Palestinians in Gaza or to move the Palestinian people any closer to achieving self determination.

[sabrina 1]

34. Yeah, they have to say that. The propaganda re that whole mess makes

it obligatory, but times are changing and people who used to respect Israel are growing fewer in number even here where all we get is propaganda. Count me among them, along with most Americans I know.

[King_David]

55. How many Americans do you know ?

Because polls show a majority of Americans support Israel as do both major political parties , the president and an overwhelming majority of the house and senate , bipartisan .

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

58. Majority of polls. Rasmussen? Gallop?

That's like the cheerleaders who say that the illegal Israeli settlements aren't illegal and that who owns the land is debatable.

[King_David]

62. I think we have different senses of humor cos I don't get it . nt

[holdencaufield]

63. When someone tries to make their case with emoticons ...

... the argument is essentially over.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

64. Yeah. You've used that hollow line before. I guess that you forgot.

it must mean you don't have anything of merit to back it up with.

So same as usual for you.

[Dick Dastardly]

65. Nothing in your post counters any of the facts in the post you were responding to. You just

present a fallacious argument that has nothing to do what was posted.

In fact even the fallacious argument you present is not wholly correct as the points you try to make out as absolute are not so clear cut but are in part and on various levels disputed and debatable. But this is an argument for another thread.

[sabrina 1]

77. The world in general has lost respect for Israel. The US is completely

propagandized re Israel in the MSM where Americans never see one person from the other side of the conflict. However, people, especially young people, no longer rely on the MSM for news and as a result, with so many choices where they can find actual real journalism, Americans, particularly young Americans, are not so saturated in the pro-no-matter-what-they-do Israel news coverage.

The loss of respect for Israel began when they invaded Lebanon, then Gaza and many people, except for the Far Right for obvious reasons, now view Israel as being responsible for brutal killings of children, women and many other innocents. Much as this country lost support for its stupid, illegal wars eventually.

What a government supports and what its people support are two different things. And I can see that the US Govt is beginning to lose its patience with Israel's extremist, Right Wing government also.

They are viewed around the World as a threat to World peace and no amount of propaganda will change people's views of their constant, brutal treatment of the Palestinian people.

[King_David]

79. The world in general never had any respect for Israel

Abba Eban said :


If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.


Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/abbaeban167935.html#1cqesEmY9L9b1az2.99

[shira]

90. The world didn't have the settlements excuse back then. n/t

[leveymg]

30. Poor, little Israel, has nothing but F-16s to respond to bottle rockets.

Big, bad Palestinians beating up on you with these mighty Weapons of Mass Destruction, again?



Poor Israel has nothing to defend itself with but these:



But, but, those Palestinians are SCARY men and they have black masks.

[abq e streeter]

35. Bottle rockets?

I didn't realize they were only bottle rockets. Perhaps then, you'd like to volunteer your family to be subjected to a few of these harmless little pranks being sent flying across the border to your home.

Yeah, didn't think so.

[leveymg]

59. By comparison to Israel's use of force in recent years, they're butterfly sneezes.

Okay, maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration. Hamas' rockets are like flies on the flanks of a bull elephant.

Typical damage from a Hamas rocket attack:



Compared to damage from Israeli airstrike that killed Hamas commander:



As for your other point, I wouldn't live on stolen land. Well, not that the Indians are still fighting over, anyway.

[holdencaufield]

74. "I wouldn't live on stolen land"

When will you be moving -- and where?

[leveymg]

81. Quote out of context, much? What was the very next sentence in that paragraph?

BTW: Note that you guys are no longer engaging on my main point about Israel's disproportionate use of force. I'm waiting to hear whatever your talking point response to that may be. I don't believe there really is an answer to that.

[holdencaufield]

83. What's out of context?

You live on stolen land ... that is a fact.

[Lionessa]

42. Exactly. Israel has been itching for a fight it seems lately.

Since no one will back them on attacking Iran, they go after their weakest neighbors, who they've starved and blockaded and stolen land from and ruined their lives, but hey, Israel apparently needed to feel virile. Perhaps a huge Viagra pill would be a better choice.

[King_David]

66. Gaza rocket fire kills three Israelis

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-20336811

[ProgressiveProfessor]

73. Not the bottle rockets bullshit again...

The Quassam III (current production) which you call "bottle rockets", carries 22 lbs/352 ounces warhead. By comparisons, the basic M67 hand grenade has 6.5 ounces of explosive fill. It is great for killing everyone in a pillbox or room. It can blow up cars. It has a lethal radius of 5 meters a casualty producing radius of 15 meters and fragments can disperse as far as 230 meters. They are unguided and Hamas is not given the time nor does it have forward observers to "walk them in" on targets, which is the reason for the lack of success.

The IDF does not use rockets, it uses missiles. Those are in some what guided to targets and have a much higher probability of hitting what they were aimed at.

Just because Hamas is less effective in their use of the rockets, does not make them deadly. There were deaths caused by them today as well.

[Scootaloo]

75. No, they are not by any means "bottle rockets," on this we can agree

Leveymg's point seems to be a rebuttal to the good rabbi's argument that Israel needs support because, gosh, it's such a weak and put-upon victim, and without your support, it might just be blown away!

Qassam rockets are dangerous. But not so dangerous as F-16 fighter jets and apache gunships and Delilah missiles and mobile armor and... And well, everything else three billion in strings-free blood money can buy.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

84. Could he/she attempt a disproportionate force argument without spewing lies

in their screeds?

[leveymg]

88. There are toy model rockets sold that are bigger than Hamas rockets

If you prefer toy rocket or model rocket to "bottle" rocket, I will understand.


Gaza rockets:

As I said, bottle rockets, particularly in the greater scale of things. Consider the Jericho III ICBM with a nuclear warhead (smaller Shavit IRBM shown):

[ProgressiveProfessor]

97. Do those extreme model rockets have 10kg explosive payloads?

The IDF does not regularly shoot uncontrolled rockets into Gaza to terrorize and kill civilians.

Clearly the IDF is more proficient with the weapons they use than the Hamas terrorists. That is a good thing when it comes to asymmetric warfare. For example, the kill shot was a clean strike. When Hamas blows up a car, it takes out half the neighborhood.

Your attempted whitewash Hamas is utter BS. That rich US hobbyists build extreme hobby rockets is not relevant. They are not weapons of war, do not carry explosive payloads, and are not aimed at civilians.

[leveymg]

98. "IDF" vs "Hamas terrorists" Think about your loaded use of terms, and how it prejudices your point.

When I see the term "terrorist", it shouts "AGENDA!", which is why my eyes usually glaze over to the argument that follows.

Same thing with the term that was once used to refer to the Palestinian bottle rockets -- "missiles" -- before it was repeatedly pointed out that Palestine has none, they have the most primative sorts of rockets. They are not only small, they lack guidance sustems. Guided missile is an oxymoron - by definition guidance is what makes a rocket a missile.

Recently, the most curious thing happened, it became a stock part of the anti-Palestine argument to point out that Hamas rockets are inaccurate, making them "terrorist" weapons. Presto-chango, a "human rights" argument that Palestinian rockets are inaccurate and militarily ineffective, therefore they are terrorist weapons.

The reasoning is very circular, until you realize that the ultimate terror weapons are nuclear, of which Israel has a monopoly in its immediate region, and Israel is quite willing to commit American forces to make sure Iran doesn't butt into its monopoly on ultimate terror weapons.

Your turn.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

102. What is your point? Hamas is a terrorist organization shooting randomly at civilians

I do not refer to them as missiles, they are indeed bereft of guidance systems.

They are inaccurate, in part by design. Rockets are area weapons, not designed for precision. When launched from a single launcher they will spread out, not hit the same spot. This also allows for lower per unit cost.

The reason they are ineffective is inappropriate use by Hamas. They use crude launch systems which are not zeroed prior to launch. They also do not have forward observers to walk the fire on to their targets. Similar system used by national armies are quite effective.

10kg warhead is a serious weapon that is being aimed randomly at civilians. Your false claims about what a Qassam III is and can do is what smacks of agenda.

[leveymg]

103. A statesman is a terrorist who survives long enough. E.g., Begin and Shamir.

You're talking about massed use of "Stalin's Organs." Indeed, very effective against German positions on the Eastern Front. But, Hamas will never be able to gather together and use mass such weapons in any militarily effective way. They become a target. The Quassam is a morale weapon, more accurately. A futile one, particularly against "Iron Dome" defended positions, but it seems to make them feel better.

What in the world have we been paying all that money -- hundreds of millions -- to support the deployment of "Iron Dome" anti-rocket system if the Israelis don't seem to be able to use it effectively?

Back at you.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

108. Its not the quantity, its the employment.

Hamas has marginal launchers and crews that do not know how to properly employ them, even for small strikes. They are being launched against civilians, and occasionally do they wound and kill. Morale weapon? Sound more like classic terrorist tactics.

The Germans had their rockets (Nebelwerfer) as well as the Soviets and US still uses them as well (MLRS). While area weapons, they can and were be effectively aimed and were not always used in massed fire.


Israel is the only nation expected by some to accept nearly daily attacks. How many of such attacks should a nation have to endure before they can strike back against those attempting to terrorize its citizens?

[leveymg]

109. It's both. Which brings us back to the expensive "Iron Dome" antirocket system. What happened?

Are the Israelis also suddenly inept in the use of their very expensive, supposedly very effective anti-rockets? Wouldn't the border with Gaza be the obvious place to put them.

It seems that whenever the Palestians are on the threshhold of a political breakthrough, such as UN recognition, some Hamas asshole fires off some bottle rockets and some IAF asshole drops 1000 pound bombs in the middle of the Gaza City in response.

Wasn't the Iron Dome system, which the US paid for, supposed to interrupt that vicious cycle of terrorist stupidity?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

110. Again with the bottle rockets BS...

Give it up, its a bad lie at best.

Its clear that Hamas are violent thugs that want to derail progress. It is also a planned and coordinated action. To claim it is just a few bubbas or fringe elements is beyond credulity. The logistics alone demonstrate it is actively supported by Hamas

Air defense systems are never 100% effective. It is also possible to saturate them locally. There are also limited number of units. However, it has been effective in stopping some incoming rockets.

[leveymg]

115. It's an effective, accurate meme, one that's easily grasped, so you dislike it. It's accurate

because it draws attention to the very real, marked disparity in scale and destructive power of the weapons being used by both sides. Sorry, but it's not misleading -- certainly not a "bad lie" -- and until I hear a good reason to conclude it's misleading, it stays. I notice it's growing in usage because others "get it".

As for Iron Dome, it appears to be yet another expensive bailout of the Israeli Military Industrial Complex that isn't returning the results promised. That is of course not unique to the Israeli MIC.

I basically agree with your analysis, except for one thing. I agree the essential problem with high-tech systems is that they are so relatively expensive that they can be overwhelmed by comparatively cheaper weapons. Each Iron Dome interceptor missile costs $50,000. Each battery has 60 missiles The related, launch, radar and telemetry systems cost many millions more. The US has contributed about $400 million, so far, with a $680 million authorization in May. But, despite the costs, the system is less than completely effective, so the answer is send more money.

Time to send Israel another $500 million. And then another $1 billion. But, what was the political purpose of all this? For the US, it was to prevent the sort of disproportionate responses -- Israeli Air Force airstrikes and military incursions into heavily-populated Palestinian areas -- of the sort that's happening again. So, it seems the Iron Dome system is a failure. Back to you.

[Scootaloo]

113. Did you just really compare Qassams to model hobby rockets?

Did I really just see that?

Fuck it. You're on your own, I'm outta here.

[leveymg]

116. Model rockets tipped with mortar shells. That's exactly what they are.

Most are made of welded up lengths of pipe and sheet metal fins. Flying pipe bombs, if you prefer. Any old car repair shop can make them. The Israelis unfortunately are wedded to a disproportionate response based in airstrikes using 500 pound bombs dropped by F-16s. That's the issue. Deal with that point on a rational basis, or don't engage.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

91. I'm a progressive Jew and there's no way I'll back Israel's offensive.

I'm sorry, but as a progressive, and as a Jew, I know a bit more about the conflict as a whole, to swallow the author's simple dynamics of Gaza Palestinians are bad by firing rockets, and the Israeli government is good because they are civilized and just keep things to "low level operations."

How about getting rid of the occupation first? And don't respond by saying Gaza is "not" occupied. For all intents and purposes, it is. You don't treat an entire people the way the Israeli government does, and expect not to have resistance to it.

For shame.

Progressives anywhere should not accept this. Jews or anyone else for that matter.

[Mosby]

94. you clearly know very little about the conflict

Last edited Fri Nov 16, 2012, 10:31 PM - Edit history (4)

Because if you had a better understanding of the facts you would know that the framework for ending the conflict and creating a Palestinian state is laid out in a couple UN security council resolutions from years ago.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

95. I clearly do know.

UN242 requires Israel to pull out, not occupy, settle and colonize the land.

[leveymg]

99. In the larger sense, Israel has already lost the argument, particularly with American progressives,

Last edited Fri Nov 16, 2012, 10:04 PM - Edit history (1)

Jews and others. To say the person who disagrees with you is ignorant betrays nothing but your own insecurity.

That approach will make you increasingly isolated, insecure, and I fear, aggressive. Just like the little state, and the religious fanatics who run it, who you try to support despite your own mounting doubts.

[shira]

100. So you believe Israelis should lie back and enjoy the rockets?

Just let Hamas fire at will?

Shameful.

[leveymg]

104. They're not nearly as much fun to watch as Israeli air strikes. No comparison.

[Raksha]

105. I'm another progressive Jew and I totally agree with you..

No way do I support this offensive. The Israeli government could end the rocket attacks on Sderot in a heartbeat if they wanted to, by ending the blockade of Gaza and negotiating a cease-fire with Hamas in good faith. But that's the last thing Bibi is going to do, especially right before an election.

This last cease-fire "negotiation," the one that Gershon Briskin was involved in, in retrospect seems to have been a feint to get Jabari to come out of hiding. It worked in the short term anyway.

My first uncensored response to the subject line, before I knew who wrote the article, was FUCK YOU. And even knowing that the author is a Reform rabbi, it's pretty much the same although I probably wouldn't say it to his face. I've known too many Reform rabbis who are liberal on every issue EXCEPT Israel to listen to any "appeals to progressive Jews" on that particular subject. And I've been bullied by too many right-wing Zionists on another forum in recent months to care what they have to say on any subject. One of them is even a Meir Kahane supporter who doesn't try very hard to hide it.

I don't think most American Jews realize just how far right and flat-out racist the Israeli right is. I've had to learn the hard way.

[shira]

106. There was no blockade of Gaza when Israel withdrew in summer 2005....

The rockets started immediately upon Israel leaving Gaza. It wasn't until 2007 that the blockade began. So Hamas was shooting rockets BEFORE the blockade from Gaza, immediately AFTER Israel withdrew. Your proposal wouldn't end the rockets at all.

Great position there.

Hundreds of rockets on Israelis and they have no right to respond. Unlike any other nation in the same predicament. Fucking unreal.

[hrmjustin]

107. Shira my question to you is what personally do you think should happen with this offensive and the

peace process? And my second question to you is what do you think really will happen?

[shira]

114. The goal should be to do what they did with Hezbollah in Lebanon...

Deterrence.

Make Hamas realize the price is too high to pay to attack Israel.

Don't know if it will happen, but Israel has to try. The rockets are intolerable. As to a peace process, there is none. When the Palestinian leadership shows it wants peace, Israel will reciprocate.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

118. Reciprocate with more colonization.

[shira]

120. Reciprocate with a peace deal along the lines of 2000 & 2008...

Both would have ended the occupation and settlements (your idea of colonization).

[Fantastic Anarchist]

117. Solidarity.

Good to see I'm not alone here.

[Raksha]

123. You are definitely not alone.

There are probably a lot more who are still intimidated and afraid to speak up, just like I was for so long. But I expect that to change as more and more progressive Jews find their voices. It tends to give courage to the "silent majority." I'm not sure it actually is a majority, but it gets closer all the time.

[King_David]

131. Not in my experience,

I go to a progressive , Gay shul, and I see everyone there standing with Israel, I can not think of 1 exception in 900 members.;

[oberliner]

125. How did you learn "the hard way" ?

What is that a reference to? Just people "bullying" you on message boards or something else?

[King_David]

132. 'by ending the blockade of Gaza '

Really?

I personally think the Israeli government could end the rocket attacks on Sderot in a heartbeat if they evacuate Jews from Tel Aviv,Haifa,Jerusalem,Beer Sheba,Eilat ,Accre,Sefad,Netanya,
Ra anana,Herzlya,Sheba Farms,Golan,Ramat Aviv,Afulla,Ramle,Gush Etzion,Ariel,Maale Adummim,Ashkelon,Bat Yam,Dimona,Rehovot,Carmel,Lod and Hebron...




The very next day there will be no rockets from Hamas...I guarantee it !

[Ken Burch]

122. It's a call for those progressives to become reactionary.

You can't support brute force in this situation and still be for peace later.

[still_one]

127. It is worse than that, it implies that there is something Wrong if you are a progressive Jew and do

Not subscribe to the ops view

[Ken Burch]

133. The Israeli government has been obsessed with keepng everybody in the Diaspora "on side"

Why they can't tolerate dissent from Diasporans, especially those in U.S., is a mystery.

It serves no good purpose...no government, anywhere, should be exempt from criticism and debate.

[King_David]

130. I think it was an unnecessary plea,

Would have happened anyway.

It is the right thing to do.

[still_one]

126. This shit has did not happen overnight. What about the illegal settlements? I am for a two state

Solution, but it sure is not as one-sided as you portray. In fact ignoring the entire,problem since bush won has just allowed things to fester and get worse

Perhaps all parties should get to the negotiating tables now!!!!

Stating your views are perfectly acceptable, but implying that there is something wrong with a progressive Jew if they don't subscribe to your view is wrong