Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumOne million Israelis under rocket fire
Adele Raimer lives on Kibbutz Nirim less than a mile from the Gaza Strip. She’s a high school English teacher, a teacher trainer, a volunteer medical clown and the mother of four children aged 22 – 32. She’s spent much of the past four days running to safe rooms and shelters in her home and school.
“They say you have 15 seconds to get to the safe room, but we’re so close to Gaza that we really have less than that,” she told The Media Line. “I do a lot of work at home, and I sometimes feel like a “Jack-in-the-box,” hopping up and down and running back and forth to the reinforced room. It makes it hard to concentrate.”
In the latest wave of violence, 115 rockets and mortars have been fired from Gaza into southern Israel. Israeli army figures say eight Israelis were slightly wounded from rocket fire, and property in several towns was damaged. At least six Palestinians have been killed and dozens wounded in Israeli airstrikes on Gaza.
But there are fewer statistics on psychological trauma. The Eran Association for Emotional First Aid reports a 22-percent increase in the number of Israelis living in the south who have contacted the organization for psychological help over the past few days.
Dr. Adriana Katz, director of the Sderot Regional Mental Health Center, says her center treats some 3,000 patients suffering from trauma from the rocket attacks.
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http://www.jewishjournal.com/israel/article/one_million_israelis_under_rocket_fire
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shira
(30,109 posts)While Israel is being bombarded by rockets from Palestinian terrorists in Gaza, placing more than one million civilians in danger, Human Rights Watch (HRW) is nowhere in sight. Apparently the human rights of Israelis are just not a concern to them. This is just another example of how HRW has not just lost its moral compass, but how the anchor has been thrown overboard as well.
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3452/israel-rockets-human-rights-watch
LeftishBrit
(41,212 posts)This is an organization that has Soeren Kern as one of its chief editors, and whose recent events have included speakers such as Mark Steyn (more than once), Senator Tom Coburn, Dick Morris, Antonin Scalia, Douglas Murray, John Bolton (more than once), Geert Wilders, Alan Craig (a London Councillor for a small Christian-Right party), Henry Kissinger, the late Andrew Breitbart; Dan Pipes, and other evil individuals. Some of the events and publications are specifically Islamophobic; some are simply far right and anti-Democrat.
If they quote a news item, I suppose the news item is just as valid, but why give any credence to right-wing monsters? Linking to the Israeli or Palestinian Right might at least give information about certain perspectives on the ground, but linking to the American and Europaean Right, whether it's the Gatestone Institute or antiwar.com, is just giving a platform for the right-wing which we are all here on DU to oppose.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)So is the starvation and slaughter of women and children (and unarmed observers) at the behest of right wing and extremist religious elements in Israel. Shouldn't the oppressors of the Palestinians also be censured or brought to justice? Might the Palestinians think they have nothing to lose?
shira
(30,109 posts)...so is starvation and slow-mo genocide? Israel acting like the Nazis...
You're comparing reality to fiction, justifying Hamas' actions with hysterical accusations.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)So I would guess that is just your conscience speaking. Personally I do not think that all Right Wingers are Nazi.
I just observed that perhaps the Palestinians (see the name of this Group) might feel aggrieved especially as the current Israeli Government seems intent upon ignoring international agreements regarding both Israeli settlers and the treatment of the Palestinians.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)There are in the West Bank - but no rockets are being fired from there.
The rockets being fired at Israel are coming from Gaza where there are no Israeli settlers.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)Both occupied West Bank with settlers, and Gaza; subject to blockade, limited food and other necessities; are Palestinian ruled and Israeli oppressed.
aranthus
(3,385 posts)Suppose Israel withdraws from the West Bank as they did from Gaza. And suppose Israel lifts the blockade of Gaza, so it was like it was before Hamas and its associates started sending rockets into southern Israel. And suppose that the rockets don't stop, and instead, Israeli major cities like Tel Aviv and Jerusalem are being hit with rockets from the West Bank. What do you think it would be acceptable for Israel to do in response?
The reason that I ask is that the Israeli blockade of Gaza was a response to rockets from Gaza. And it would appear that you don't think that is a legitimate response. And the recent Israeli air attacks are a response to rockets and mortars from Gaza, and it would appear that you don't think that is legitimate either. So what would be?
intaglio
(8,170 posts)The Israeli raids upon peaceful convoys of boats were in breach of Maritime Law.
That the Israeli Government has steadfastly refused to negotiate with Hamas has echoes of the equally stupid British refusal to negotiate with the Provos. Proposing "what ifs" regarding escalation of violence by Palestinians in Gaza would as stupid as a Loyalist asking "what if the IRA bombs Parliament what happens to the peace process then??!!"
Now let me ask you, where do you get your ideas? How is Hamas supposed to be able to ship very larger low intermediate range missiles and their control systems into Gaza? Through tunnels that can barely fit the missiles used already?
I think you are referring to the Israeli scare stories about the Fajr-3 missile is being specially produced to be dismantled, then re-assembled in Gaza. This is unlikely as the Fajr-3 is 5+ m long, requires a large specialist launching system and still has only a range of 30 km. Dismantling and then re-assembling solid fuel rockets of this size is unlikely to say the least.
Check the Wiki page for a fast fix on the Fajr-3
aranthus
(3,385 posts)Let's be clear.
1. Israel's blockade of Gaza is the result of attacks from Gaza. You think that response to attacks from Gaza should not be allowed. Then how should Israel respond?
2. If Israel were to withdraw from the West Bank, then rockets fired from the West Bank could hit Tel Aviv and Jerusalem with ease. What would you permit Israel to do in response?
3. Your comparison of Hamas to the IRA is nonsensical. The IRA never advocated or acted to achieve the destruction of England. Hamas, on the other hand, continues to demand the end of the Jewish state.
4. Your claims that the Israeli response to the aggression from Gaza are in violation of international law are ridiculous.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)The Israelis blockade is in breach of international law. Do you dispute this? If you do I suggest you do a bit of searching, ignore Israeli propaganda and think again. You see the reason for the blockade does not matter, it still remains in breach of international law as it results in the indiscriminate suffering of non-combatants. You may choose to think that "The Law is an Ass" in this matter, that's fine. but don't tell your local police that in respect of national laws.
I did not advocate withdrawal from the West Bank, I merely referred to the fact that Palestinians on the West Bank are the same group as those in the Gaza Strip and that that group, as a whole is being repressed by the Israeli actions. I might also add that the Israeli inaction in respect of the illegal Israeli settlers on the West Bank is also in breach Israeli agreements on this matter.
The IRA wanted the complete removal of the British in occupation of NI and the destruction of the NI state which was a devolved institution. I might also add that, as a group with a Communist manifesto, the IRA of the 1960s and 70s did advocate the destruction of the British state. They were also a terrorist group which, at times, assisted other terrorist groups such as the Palestinians.
Your point 4 is just repetition of your point 1. Do a bit of thinking for yourself and check sources other than Israeli ones.
King_David
(14,851 posts)intaglio
(8,170 posts)Outside those national waters the Israeli actions amount to piracy.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)is that the IRA did not consider the eradication of England's government, the expulsion of all English citizens and the "return" of all of Great Britain to the Irish, to be its primary goals.
Hamas has steadfastly insisted that they will never abandon their goal of returning all of Israel (Palestine to them), to Arab hands and expelling all of the Jews who immigrated there as well as their descendents. The most they have ever been willing to offer has been a "hudna" (truce), for up to a maximum of ten years. And that was only in the event that Israel met every single one of their ludicrous demands, some of which would amount to the end of Israel anyway... such as enforcing a right of return for all Palestinian refugees and their descendents to Israel; close to 5 million people.
Hamas is committed to Israel's destruction. They are not supporters of the two state solution. They are not seeking a permanent peace with Israel. Any temporary peace that they'd consider making with Israel is only considered insomuch as it brings them an advantage in seeking Israel's ultimate demise.
What is the point of negotiating with an enemy unless both sides have the same goal... peace?
intaglio
(8,170 posts)The IRA did call for the destruction of the Northern Irish state and the removal of any and all inhabitants of that country who did not wish to submit. At one point in the post WWII struggles they also advocated the destruction of the Government of the UK and its replacement by a Communist one and the conversion of the State of Eire to a Communist state.
Now the IRA also steadfastly insisted that they would never abandon their goal of destroying the whole of Northern Ireland and incorporating it into a Greater Irish State. Bearing this in mind what was the point of the US forcing all parties in NI to negotiate? By your argument peace could never arise.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)You might want to read up on the relevant LOS.
shira
(30,109 posts)They do that very well to others under their rule.
You keep saying it's the Palestinian people who are desperate, etc. That was the line in 2000 when Israel offered them a state, 1/2 of Jerusalem, compensation for refugees, etc. But Arafat wanted it all and started Intifada 2. That's not desperation.
Neither is it desperation when Hamas does it.
LeftishBrit
(41,212 posts)One does not justify the other; they are in fact playing into each others' hands.
The rockets are aimed indiscriminately - they are at least as likely to kill innocent children as 'extremists'. If one opposes collective punishment on one side - as I do, then one should oppose it on both.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)I just find some of the uncritical cheerleaders the Israeli Government to be a bit ... misleading
LeftishBrit
(41,212 posts)There are lots of governments that I don't like, but that doesn't justify violence against the people of the countries, though hawks of all types often act as though it does.
Terrorism is just warmongering without an official army, as warmongering is generally terrorism with an official army.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)but the Palestinians do feel that they are abandoned and like many such oppressed peoples they feel reduced to terrorism. Of course there are also more calculating and violence loving elements on both sides who use the sickening killings as evidence of "success"
I did not like the violence employed by the IRA but I acknowledge that there was a justified sense of grievance amongst the Catholics that enabled the IRA, Provos and Continuity, to flourish.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)There are no Israeli settlers in Gaza, no checkpoints, etc. There is also a border with Egypt that Israel has nothing to do with. The Palestinian people in Gaza are being ruled by an oppressive Hamas regime.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)I do not say that the Palestinians are perfect, just that the actions of the Israelis render the Palestinians otherwise helpless. The IRA used to oppress the moderate Catholics but they remained a voice even though a violent one.
As to settlers are you saying that the Palestinians in the Gaza do not have kinship with the Palestinians of the West Bank?
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)are that they seem to be ignoring what Hamas is giving as their reasons for attacking, in favor of proposing hypothetical reasons that places more of the blame on Israeli actions. The sad fact of the matter is that Hamas is operating via a different set of motives and ethics than you suppose. Their problem was never that settlers are in Gaza or the West Bank. If anything, having those settlers there helped Hamas' cause. Their goal has never been anything less than the complete eradication of the state of Israel and the return of the whole of the land to Arab control, followed by the ethnic cleansing of the area's Jewish inhabitants. They have always been very clear about this; unlike the PLO they don't tend to say one thing in english and then another in arabic depending on their audience.
And this fact dovetails perfectly with their actions. Whenever there was a stronger possibility of peace, Hamas reacted by ramping up terrorism against Israel in order to provoke a response and derail the peace process. Recall what they did following the signing of the Oslo Accords? Increased suicide attacks and related terrorism against Israel. What happened following Israel's withdrawal from Gaza, (an act that is by any measure a significant concession and olive branch?) Dramatically increased rockets and mortar attacks. Attacks against aid trucks driven by Israelis that were going INTO Gaza! Attacks against the border crossings. Why attack those? The Palestinians need those crossings to be open so they can go into Israel and sell their goods, go to jobs, make business deals of the kind that foment peaceful relationships. But when Hamas mortars them they end up being closed for a short period of time afterwards, killing trade with Israel and disrupting any chance of furthering normalized relations.
Compare the result in Gaza versus what's been happening in the West Bank, which has remained relatively peaceful. In the past decade the WB's economy has been growing exponentially. Standards of living keep rising swiftly along with increased jobs and educational opportunities. As a result Israel has begun slowly dismantling some of the occupation infrastructure like checkpoints around Jenin. A recent court ruling in Israel ruled against the government, ordering the IDF to demolish several illegal settler outposts. Similar suits are expected to be brought against other wildcat settlements soon. By all measures life has been improving for the average civilian in the West Bank by virtue of their commitment to peace.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)To use a comparison that will make... those in certain quarters bug out in an apoplectic fit, Gaza's situation is like that of a prison.
Within the prison environment, there is bound to be an alliance of Dudes You Don't Fuck With. Truthfully there's probably several such gangs, but one of them is likely dominant. And true to the capital letters, you don't fuck with them; you avoid them (or try,) you get in good with htem, or you find someone who can keep you safe from them, that's the way it goes. In Gaza, the top dog gang, the Guys You Don't Fuck With, are Hamas, and they rule oppressively, as you note. They have the power to do so, by strength of arms, numbers, and "community support" (whether it's actual support or just people scared to make a move, doesn't matter, it works out the same)
But there's a catch... No prison is ruled by the prisoners. For all the power the DYDFW group may wield among their fellow inmates, it's the wardens that hold the real power in the environment. Their judgement can make or break you - literally. Their authority is absolute. Your appeal options are nearly nonexistent. Barring the occasional riot, their rule is unassailable; and their access to the outside and ability to call in reinforcements armed far beyond shivs and table legs makes such insurrections largely meaningless.
Short version: Israel controls Gaza. it blockades the seas. it blockades the land. it's currently engaged in "Operation: Pillar of Defense" within Gaza, the latest of numerous offensives into the strip that the Gazans can't do anything about. "Hamas rule" is an illusion, maintained until the wardens - Israel - show up and dissipate it in an instant.
However, for those seeking any excuse, any justification for their desire to see the people of Gaza bombed, shot, and mortared on a regular basis, "Hamas rule" is a useful illusion. A self-serving narrative that says, "well, if the people of Gaza don't want Israeli missiles falling on them, they should get rid of Hamas!" A wink-wink nudge-nudge argument that pretends Israel is powerless and uninvolved in the situation of Gaza, innocent of any blood spilled; it's all Hamas' fault - and the narrative follows, the fault of the people of Gaza themselves.
No other group on earth gets this argument thrown at them. "because you're oppressed, we will bomb the fuck out of you, until you decide to stop being oppressed."
Oh, wait... that was what we told the Iraqis in 2003, wasn't it?
bemildred
(90,061 posts)
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)bemildred
(90,061 posts)
WRT your comment, I dunno, it's getting hard to separate the theater from the real stuff, I'm not sure if he's even really doing this, or it's a gesture, or what. And anyway, he's not really calling the shots anymore, I'm not sure if anybody is, but he's definitely not, he's just reacting.
I do think that any serious incursion in Gaza would be a mistake right now, so I'm reluctant to think he's really going to do it. But he can't really ignore the rockets either, and he can use the chance to look tough, and a distraction has merit in his eyes too about now, very unfortunate how that election came out ...
But I have no clue really, none of this makes much sense to me, as I said.
