Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumChomsky: Impressions of Gaza
http://chomsky.info/articles/20121104.htmEven a single night in jail is enough to give a taste of what it means to be under the total control of some external force. And it hardly takes more than a day in Gaza to begin to appreciate what it must be like to try to survive in the worlds largest open-air prison, where a million and a half people, in the most densely populated area of the world, are constantly subject to random and often savage terror and arbitrary punishment, with no purpose other than to humiliate and degrade, and with the further goal of ensuring that Palestinian hopes for a decent future will be crushed and that the overwhelming global support for a diplomatic settlement that will grant these rights will be nullified.
The intensity of this commitment on the part of the Israeli political leadership has been dramatically illustrated just in the past few days, as they warn that they will go crazy if Palestinian rights are given limited recognition at the UN. That is not a new departure. The threat to go crazy (nishtagea) is deeply rooted, back to the Labor governments of the 1950s, along with the related Samson Complex: we will bring down the Temple walls if crossed. It was an idle threat then; not today.
The purposeful humiliation is also not new, though it constantly takes new forms. Thirty years ago political leaders, including some of the most noted hawks, submitted to Prime Minister Begin a shocking and detailed account of how settlers regularly abuse Palestinians in the most depraved manner and with total impunity. The prominent military-political analyst Yoram Peri wrote with disgust that the armys task is not to defend the state, but to demolish the rights of innocent people just because they are Araboushim (n*****s, k****s) living in territories that God promised to us.
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The effects are painfully evident. In the Khan Yunis hospital, the director, who is also chief of surgery, describes with anger and passion how even medicines are lacking for relief of suffering patients, as well as simple surgical equipment, leaving doctors helpless and patients in agony. Personal stories add vivid texture to the general disgust one feels at the obscenity of the harsh occupation. One example is the testimony of a young woman who despaired that her father, who would have been proud that she was the first woman in the refugee camp to gain an advanced degree, had passed away after 6 months of fighting cancer aged 60 years. Israeli occupation denied him a permit to go to Israeli hospitals for treatment. I had to suspend my study, work and life and go to set next to his bed. We all sat including my brother the physician and my sister the pharmacist, all powerless and hopeless watching his suffering. He died during the inhumane blockade of Gaza in summer 2006 with very little access to health service. I think feeling powerless and hopeless is the most killing feeling that human can ever have. It kills the spirit and breaks the heart. You can fight occupation but you cannot fight your feeling of being powerless. You can't even dissolve that feeling.
hack89
(39,171 posts)if Hamas renounced violence and stopped firing rockets at Israel.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)And Hamas wouldn't have ever had any power if the Israelis hadn't been obsessed for decades with discrediting the PLO-I hope people can look at the rise of Hamas and accept that it proves that the fixation with bringing down the PLO was a horrific mistake that had no positive results for Israel at all.
hack89
(39,171 posts)It also brings into question their judgement if they think that Israel will be cowed by violence.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)will be cowed by violence AND if they think that it's morally acceptable to punish the people of Gaza collectively for Hamas' actions. OCL should have discredited that thinking once and for all. Operation Cast Even More Lead can't possibly produce anything different than what OCL did.
Whatever you think of Hamas(and believe me, I dislike them as much as you), why should the civilians of Gaza, who are powerless to stop Hamas from doing anything, be injured or killed over this? You can't assume that they all back the rocket-firing.
Using force here fits the definition of insanity...doing the same thing over and over again in the hopes of getting a different result. It didn't work(and could never have worked)for the U.S. in Vietnam...why should Israeli leaders think it would be any different for them?
shira
(30,109 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)What they HAVE done clearly doesn't work.
shira
(30,109 posts)And maybe the pro-Palestinian side needs to do something else, like voice outrage at Hamas for all the rockets, using their people as shields, children as militants, etc.
Maybe they'd think twice w/o all the support they usually get.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Peacekeeping troops from somewhere else(not the UN, if that's an issue), some country that's neutral in this fight might also help, since neither side can be trusted to handle THAT particular task at the moment.
shira
(30,109 posts)And no peacekeeping troops are going to risk their necks fighting for people in other countries.
Ridiculous.
So while trying to negotiate something, Hamas fires at will into Israel - collectively punishing over 1 million civilians while blackmailing Israel. Meanwhile, hundreds of rockets later these troops of yours will deploy....when? Next month? Which countries will volunteer?
Nice plan.
Obviously, collective punishment against Israelis is preferred over collective punishment of Palestinians.
No other country would ever consider doing what you're proposing.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)It will just hurt innocent Gazan civilians. NO innocent civilians should be hurt.
Dick Dastardly
(937 posts)Hamas chose to engage in violence and terror and especially as they mainly target civillians.
Hamas would not have any power if they did not have the huge support that they do among Palestinians.
libodem
(19,288 posts)Ghetto. I think Israel is morbidity abusive to the Palestinians in order to inflame the other Muslims in the region. If they could just insense Iran enough with the starvation, searches, beatings, imprisonment, torturing, and withholding of medical and building supplies.
It's a big F U and middle finger. See look we are kicking the crap out of your brothers, suckas. Come do sumthin about it.
King_David
(14,851 posts)libodem
(19,288 posts)They have a monster arsenal of nuclear weapons and want to have a reason to blow Iran off the map.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Not some other question that you answered .
And as for "blowing off the map" or "wiping off the map" or "removing off the pages of history" or whatever other " mistranslation " you wish to believe... That the lingo and rhetoric of that nutjob lunatic president of Iran .. Referring to The Jewish State or Zionist Entity or whatever he calls Israel ...
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)the regime change in Egypt and now some of the same people that were making claims of Iran floating weapons to Gaza as a justification for the blockade are now claiming huh what Iran why no
the old I/P forum on DU2 is not accessible at the moment unless you have saved link but even then the archives are not available at the moment
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)That, in theory, give them a dog in this hunt...or skin in the game...or whatever other cheesy metaphor you can come up with.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)it started about the time Mubarak was ousted and went into high gear when Morsi was elected now it's Iran doesn;t have much to do with Gaza whereas prior it had been Iran is supplying Hamas IMO this shift is par for the course in these parts
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)The "line" has been changed indeed.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)thanks though
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Mind-boggling.
aranthus
(3,385 posts)They are different modes of thought.
Hamas is Sunni. Iran is Shiite.
They're hardly brothers. This is Islam 101.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Let's see if it sticks.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)There should be more, others. We should take a DU field trip over there and draw our own conclusions. Can we start a fund drive?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)guess it'll just have to wait eh?
King_David
(14,851 posts)I do not imagine a Gay Jew would come out of Gaza alive.
I'll chill and wait for you guys at Mikes Place on the Tayelet in Tel Aviv.
( you know the Canadian Restaurant bar that was bombed by ISM aided Terrorists...its still open
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2003/Details+of+April+30-+2003+Tel+Aviv+suicide+bombing.htm)
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I could be wrong on either or both counts, but I thought he was.
King_David
(14,851 posts)But to them he is a 'useful idiot' and so afforded their protection.
As you know,I do not fall into that category.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Way to go in positing that Chomsky "doesn't count" though. Doing a good job, showing what color the roots of American "Pro-Israel" thought really are.
King_David
(14,851 posts)How does that work ?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)Useful idiot
Term invented in Soviet Russia to describe people who blindly supported the likes of Lenin and Stalin while they committed atrocity after atrocity.
http://m.urbandictionary.com/#define?term=Useful%20idiot
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Now that you mention it.
But point of fact was, I said you weren't useful.
King_David
(14,851 posts)It is always nice when fellow DU members avoid personal attacks on other DU members, after all we are a community.
I just thought that you had called me dim,not useful and implied I was an idiot , but clearly I was wrong.
King_David
(14,851 posts)And again you should re read my post, I never said Chomsky supports Hamas,I said Hamas considers Chomsky a 'Useful Idiot'.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Maybe you should be the one re-reading your posts... And why do I feel like I tell you that in damn near every thread we post in?
King_David
(14,851 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Don't be an un-useful person, Dave. It's easy to tell when a writer is attributing their own opinions to others.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Just for the record. And he supports the Geneva Accords, so he's not even anti-Israel.