Clinton campaign slams ‘outrageous’ UNESCO resolution on Jerusalem

[King_David]

Aide says ex-secretary of state ‘fought for Israel against biased resolutions like these,’ would do so as president

By JTAOctober 14, 2016, 7:18 pm



Hillary Clinton’s campaign slammed a UNESCO resolution that upholds Muslim claims on holy sites in Jerusalem while mostly erasing Jewish claims, calling it “outrageous” and pledging to “defend Israel against biased resolutions like these.”


http://www.timesofisrael.com/clinton-campaign-slams-outrageous-unesco-resolution-on-jerusalem/

[oberliner]

1. It is pretty scary

The world is literally trying to erase Judaism from Israel.

[King_David]

2. Not unexpected though..

The world has never loved or liked or even tolerated Jews.

[Igel]

7. Lots of things go into that.

In this case, it's just two groups fighting against each other, coupled with a similarly antagonistic mindset.

Secularly, it's "we need a place to live, have a right to a place, and somebody's trying to take it away from us." Imagine if all the Germans ousted from Koenigsberg and from what's now western Poland demanded to be allowed to return to their land, if the Germans elsewhere had insisted they be put in camps and not given citizenship or allowed to integrate. It wouldn't be pretty.

Religiously, it's "we're promised this land and you're interlopers." Perfectly aligned with secular reasons we have religious reasons. Palestine is waqf, given to Muslims by Allah. But there's a strong undercurrent that the children of Israel was promised that land, and that Judaism is right in God's sight. Even the synagogue I visit from time to time is ardently pro-Israel as the ingathering of the Jews spoken of in the Tanakh but backs off finally saying that it's the fulfillment of prophecy--it's a messianic synagogue and the idea of non-messianic Jews being that final restoration of a righteous Israel is a high hurdle. For them, the Jews are blessed of God--just don't say "Shoah" in their presence or point out that if you want to be religiously oriented then you say God chucked them out once to Babylon for being wayward, and another time under the Romans ... for the righteousness that they say they should be observing. I have yet to explore Jewish views of theodicy at a national level, and it's not real high on my bucket list.

A lot of "racism" is what you see among all-white kids in high school or in mixed-race schools. One group acts differently and thinks itself superior to others. One group insists on its standards for behavior and thinks it's hateful to be asked to compromise, and even delights in both being different and making others see how superior they are. The result of enforced non-mingling and non-accommodation is not a good one, often leading to "so, you think you're better than us?" And it's worse when the group involved responds, "Yup, we are better than you." Doesn't matter if it's whites and blacks, Christians and Muslims, Jews and Russians or Arabs, or the dullard football jocks versus the wimpy kids in AP English.

In a value-system in which honor is valued above truth--at least public honor above public truth--the UNESCO resolution is what you get. It's important to claim the land and win the argument, esp. when satisfying your honor also gets you stuff; if you have to betray the truth, as long as nobody that you value says you've betrayed the truth the truth is just what people agree on. Destroy the facts, and they never existed if you don't say they did. In a society in which there's a fair amount of poverty and in which being impoverished is a dishonor, esp. when it's your lessers that are wealthier, jealousy plays as big a role as simple greed--you can be greedy and want stuff, you can be covetous and what what they have, or you can be jealous and be almost as happy with another's ruin as you'd be with your own success.

I put the three kinds of hatred into different buckets. The first is national and the conflicts are often very hard to resolve; frequently it requires one group give up its aspirations. Germans removed from Poland may sometimes harbor dreams of reclaiming their patrimony but they've assimilated and moved on for the most part.

The second is religious and cannot be resolved. Secular Zionists may have thought an alternative homeland would have suited Jews, and they'd have been right; "next year in Jerusalem" was okay for many hundreds of years ... But that train has left the station, and "next year in Namibia" would produce a lot of grief. Having given Jews a homeland in Palestine, to remove them would be nearly impossible. Redefining waqf is what's needed at this point, and finding an accommodation for a largish Muslim minority, as well as finding some way of disposing of the territories of Ephraim and Manesseh (and was it Reuben?) from Jewish national aspirations. Then, perhaps, the religious claims could be resolved.

The third problem, viewing those who view you as inferior as inferior, won't go away. Separation and rituals to govern interactions is the usual way history has of dealing with this, when the more common kludges of ethnic cleansing and forced assimilation weren't employed. Given today's Zeitgeist, I don't see "rituals" happening except in some formal, treaty-level way that rules government-to-government to interactions.

[Little Tich]

3. Israel? The resolution has nothing to do with Israel.

The Old City of Jerusalem is not in Israel...

[oberliner]

4. The Western Wall is not under Israeli control?

Maybe you should take a trip over there and see.

[King_David]

5. LOL

[Little Tich]

10. Let's look at a map to see where the border is...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem

The grey areas are part of Israel, the other areas belong to... "not Israel" and are under occupation. This is not about who's actually been to Jerusalem, (have you?) it's about being able to understand maps and why the border is where it is.

[sabbat hunter]

30. you realize that

the 1949 cease fire lines were just that, cease fire lines?
So by your logic if Israel was in control of Jerusalem in 1949 when the cease fire was declared, it would legally be theirs?
And yes I have been to Jerusalem. I was Bar-Mitzvahed at the wall.

[Little Tich]

31. If you think that holding a Bar mitzvah at the Wall was your religious right

and that anyone else should have the right to do so for all perpetuity, perhaps it would be morally right to extend equivalent religious rights to adherents of other religions...

In this thread, there are at least one who thinks that Palestinians should have equal rights in Jerusalem, one who is strongly opposed and a few in between. Personally, I want equal rights for Israelis/Jews/Palestinians in all respects - both civil rights and religious rights. The way the US Constitution provides civil rights and protects religious freedom could be used as a template.

So I wonder where you stand on this issue: -Are you inclined towards rights for Palestinians, against, or perhaps on the fence?

As for me, I think that the issue of rights for Palestinians in East Jerusalem is closely connected to whether Israel has actually annexed East Jerusalem or is just a hostile occupier...

[sabbat hunter]

32. I think that

all of Jerusalem should be part of Israel, and everyone living there, regardless of religion should be given Israeli citizenship.

[shira]

34. Agreed. n/t

[aranthus]

35. What if there are Palestinians who don't want to be Israelis?

Last edited Wed Oct 26, 2016, 06:32 PM - Edit history (1)

What if all they want is their civil rights protected? What if they want to be Jordanian citizens? Or Palestinian citizens? What if what they want most is Israel gone?

I think Israel should make citizenship easily available to Palestinians in Jerusalem, and should definitely protect their civil rights whether they are citizens or not. I'm not sure it's right for them to force citizenship on people who may not want it.

[Little Tich]

37. I think that East Jerusalemites should have their applications made with the same ease as for every

Jewish person that enters Israel - that is, automatically. Also, the nonsense that only Jewish Israelis can hold dual citizenship should be revoked.

Thirdly, something must be done with the stateless Palestinians living in East Jerusalem, many of them born there - it's a really shitty thing to do to deny people the right to a citizenship.

When it comes to security issues, I don't consider being a Palestinian to be a security risk in itself. I don't want to hold Israel to higher standards than any generic democratic country, and I see no problem with denying citizenship to people on genuine security grounds.

I'm sure you understand the ramifications if Jerusalem actually became unified city...

[aranthus]

38. I agree about automatically granting a citizenship application..

those who don't apply should be given permanent residence status, and their rights protected.

[Little Tich]

41. It's good that we agree. n/t

[shira]

33. It's the Jews' holiest site on earth, so of course it's our religious right.

Israel is in control of Jerusalem but Jews allow people of all faiths to pray at the wall, not just Jews.

Full stop.

When the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, no Jews were allowed at the wall. UNESCO's vote and the PA reaction to it shows the PA (and Hamas too) would deny Jewish rights in Jerusalem. Just like Jordan did. So why would Israelis want that again?

The only way to ensure the religious rights of everyone is for Jerusalem to remain within Israel.
Even then, Israel still denies Jews the right to pray on the Mount itself & restricts their visits there.
Who else would do that in the world? It doesn't get more accommodating & respectful than that.

How am I wrong?

[Little Tich]

36. The Western Wall isn't the only holy place in Jerusalem.

For Christians and Muslims, the problem is restricted access to other holy places, especially during holidays, but also Jerusalem in general. For example, Palestinian Christians outside Jerusalem can't enter Jerusalem during Easter, and recently, 83.000 Palestinians had their permits to enter Jerusalem during Ramadan revoked. Christian Palestinians are emigrating due to Israeli restrictions, which is probably what Israel wants.

It may be crazy talk, but I would like that Jerusalem was a city where all religions were treated equally.


After deadly Tel Aviv attack, Israel suspends Palestinian permits
Source: Reuters, Jun 9, 2016

The Israeli military on Thursday revoked permits for 83,000 Palestinians to visit Israel and said it would send hundreds more troops to the occupied West Bank after a Palestinian gun attack that killed four Israelis in Tel Aviv.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-shooting-idUSKCN0YU2F1

---

2015 Report on International Religious Freedom: Israel and The Occupied Territories - The Occupied Territories
Source: US Department of State, August 10, 2016
(snip)

The Israeli government continued to limit access to a number of key religious sites, including the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount, which saw an unprecedented eight-week long restriction on access for some Muslims beginning in August, as well as the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the Ibrahimi Mosque/Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron, and Rachel’s Tomb. In addition, travel restrictions, such as limits on travel between the West Bank and Jerusalem for Yom Kippur, and further construction of the separation barrier impeded the ability of Muslims to enter Jerusalem and Christian clergy to reach churches to conduct services.

---

The Israeli government imposed increased movement restrictions on Palestinians in the West Bank, September 23-24, during the Yom Kippur holiday. As in previous such closures, authorities prohibited West Bank residents including those who held Israeli-issued access permits, from entering Jerusalem or Israel, except those working for international organizations or in a humanitarian capacity.

The Israeli government announced it had increased the number of permits for Palestinians from the West Bank to access Jerusalem for religious holidays, but Palestinian Christian leaders said the Israeli government prevented many of these permits from being used in practice. For example, they stated Israel had granted permits to some but not all members of the same immediate family, including children, thereby discouraging the families – who refused to be separated – from traveling. In contrast to 2014, the Israeli government did not impose increased restrictions on Palestinian access to Jerusalem from the West Bank during Ramadan.

---

The Israeli government continued building the separation barrier in areas north, east, and south of Jerusalem in the West Bank. Religious organizations providing education, health care, and other humanitarian relief and social services to Palestinians in and around East Jerusalem stated the barrier impeded their work. Clergy members stated the barriers and checkpoints impeded their movements between Jerusalem and West Bank churches and monasteries, as well as the movement of congregants between their homes and places of worship. For example, Christian leaders said the separation barrier hindered Bethlehem-area Christians from reaching the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem. They also said it made visits to Christian sites in Bethlehem difficult for Palestinian Christians who lived on the west side of the barrier. Foreign pilgrims and religious aid workers also reported difficulty or delays accessing Christian religious sites in the West Bank because of the barrier.

---

The Israeli government continued to limit Arab Christian clergy serving in the West Bank or Jerusalem to single entry visas, which local parish leaders in the West Bank said complicated needed travel to areas under their pastoral authority outside the West Bank or Jerusalem (such as Jordan). Clergy, nuns, and other religious workers from Arab countries said they continued to face long delays before they received visas, and reported periodic denials of their visa applications. The Israeli government stated visa delays or denials were due to security processing.

Israel continued to prohibit some Arab Christian clergy from entering Gaza, including bishops and other senior clergy seeking to visit congregations or ministries under their pastoral authority.

According to church leaders and lay Palestinians, a combination of factors continued to provide the impetus for increased Christian emigration from Jerusalem and the West Bank, including the limited ability of Christian communities in the Jerusalem area to expand due to building restrictions; the difficulties Christian clergy experienced in obtaining Israeli visas and residency permits; Israeli government family reunification restrictions; taxation problems; and economic hardship created by Israeli-imposed travel restrictions.

Read more: http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2015/nea/256271.htm

[shira]

39. You're complaining about Palestinian access to holy sites when......

Last edited Thu Oct 27, 2016, 12:48 PM - Edit history (1)

....there are genuine security risks; pretending Israel is just as bad denying Palestinians access to their holy places as Arabs were to Jews between 1949-67.

That won't work here, sorry.

What do you think about the most recent 2nd UNESCO vote denying Jewish rights? Pure antisemitism, right? They had a chance to amend the part omitting Jewish ties to the Mount & chose to leave it as is. Pretty cut and dry, right?

Proving the UN is antisemitic, so why pretend otherwise?

[Little Tich]

40. No Palestinian is above suspicion, and therefore always a security risk?

I suppose any form of organized discrimination can be excused in the name of security - especially the kind of religious discrimination that led to the UNESCO resolutions...

[shira]

42. Denying any security threat whatsoever against Jews is vile.

Last edited Fri Oct 28, 2016, 08:49 AM - Edit history (1)

This denial of any threat to Jews is common within BDS circles.

Denying the Holocaust, denying BDS, UNESCO, or Mondoweiss antisemitism, denying modern day threats to Jews.

Doesn't that ever get tiresome?

[sabbat hunter]

6. Please show us

a partition plan that had Jerusalem as part of Palestine.
The 1949 cease fire lines do not count, as they were just that, cease fire lines, not necessarily meant at permanent borders. Plus no Palestine was declared at that time.




Jerusalem was supposed to be an international city under international auspices. But the UN long ago abrogatted the right to rule over Jerusalem, when they failed to defend Jerusalem against Jordanian forces in the War for Independence, and then never tried to force Jordan to leave. Jordan annexed all of the west bank, which they later took back, which still left Jerusalem in Israeli hands and control.

[Little Tich]

8. The annexation of Eastern Jerusalem was was determined to be "null and void" by the United Nations

Security Council Resolution 478, with no opposition (the US abstained). This means that Eastern Jerusalem including the Old City is under occupation, something that any East Jerusalemite can confirm.

This wouldn't have been much of a problem, if only the Palestinians in East Jerusalem would have treated well. Now they're under an Apartheid system that's designed to cause poverty and stifle any form of positive development, and Israel doesn't abide by its obligations as an occupying power to the Palestinians in East Jerusalem.

Here's a report from UNCTAD (United Nations Conference on Trade and Development) that gives an overview of the situation for the people in the city you seem to claim is part of Israel:

The Palestinian Economy in East Jerusalem: Enduring annexation, isolation and disintegration
Source: UNCTAD, 2013
(snip, summary IV)

The weight of the economy of East Jerusalem has been steadily diminishing relative to that of the rest of OPT since the signing of the 1993 Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements, known as the Oslo Accords, and related Israeli-Palestinian agreements. This decline, in large part, has been the result of an array of Israeli policies that have hindered development of the East Jerusalem economy as an integral part of the larger Palestinian economy and labour market. The deterioration in socioeconomic conditions has had a significant impact on Palestinian Jerusalemites in their standards of living, housing, health care and education. Israeli policies have entailed a partial and distorted “integration” of the East Jerusalem Palestinian economy into Israel and its regulatory framework. Meanwhile East Jerusalem has been gradually detached from the rest of the Palestinian economy despite the city’s historic position as the commercial, transport, tourism, cultural and spiritual centre for Palestinians throughout the occupied territory.

In 2010 more than half of the East Jerusalem labour force worked in services, commerce, hotels and restaurants, while the construction and agricultural sectors accounted for less than one quarter of total employment. Unemployment rates reached record highs in the aftermath of the second intifada, which declined since but remained high nonetheless, along with systematically higher poverty rates among Palestinian Jerusalemites as compared to Israelis residing in the city. This attests to the systematic exclusion of Palestinian East Jerusalem from the State to which it was unilaterally annexed, while it simultaneously became separated from the rest of the occupied West Bank.

Consequently, the East Jerusalem economy finds itself in a world quite apart from the two economies, Palestinian and Israeli, to which it is linked. It is at once integrated into neither, yet structurally dependent on the West Bank economy to sustain its production and trade of goods and services and for employment, and forcibly dependent on Israeli markets to whose regulations and systems it must conform and which serve as a source of employment and trade and as the principal channel for tourism to the city.

These paradoxical relations have served to effectively leave the East Jerusalem economy to fend for itself in a developmental limbo, severed from Palestinian Authority jurisdiction and subordinated to the Jewish population imperatives and settlement strategies of Israeli municipal and State authorities. Just as the economic growth pattern and overall direction of the Gaza Strip in recent years has veered in a distinct and separate direction from that of the West Bank, so has East Jerusalem’s economic trajectory diverged from that of the rest of the West Bank. These disturbing trends risk rendering redundant the notion enshrined in United Nations resolutions and the Oslo Accords, namely that the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, constitute a single territorial and legal entity. This in turn has critical implications for development prospects and eventual policy interventions in the East Jerusalem economy.

Read more: http://unctad.org/en/PublicationsLibrary/gdsapp2012d1_en.pdf

[aranthus]

9. So what?

Why should I care what the UN.says?

[Little Tich]

11. Yes, why indeed and on DU to boot... n/t

[King_David]

12. Clinton said more or less the same thing

And on DU we support her... 100% - especially appreciative of her steadfast unwavering support of the Jewish State.

[Little Tich]

13. Perhaps you should ask her if Jerusalem is the capital of israel?

US State Department dodging question: Is Jerusalem the capital of Israel?

https://www.youtube.com/user/elderofziyon2

Jay Carney refuses to name the capital of Israel.

https://www.youtube.com/user/LSUDVM

Things aren't always easy when it comes to international politics. Do you actually think that she'll overturn longstanding US policy on the status of Jerusalem?

[King_David]

18. Pivot

The OP is this threads topic.

[aranthus]

16. So no answer.

You're the one citing the UN. Don't you think you should have a legitimate rational reason why?

[leftynyc]

23. You shouldn't care

I certainly don't - the UN is nothing but a joke now. Even the leader of UNESCO didn't want this vile vote done. The UN has been taken over by thugs and imbeciles.

[awoke_in_2003]

26. Saudi Arabia on the Human Rights Council

is all that needs to be said about the UN.

[leftynyc]

27. Well said.(nt)

[Israeli]

15. Always look for a solution Little Tich

......there is one .....

Establishing Jerusalem as the capital of the two states, with East Jerusalem (including the Haram al-Sharif) serving as the capital of Palestine and West Jerusalem (including the Western Wall) serving as the capital of Israel. The city is to be united on the physical and municipal level, based on mutual agreement.

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/about/aims/


Compromise ...balance .... = Peace.

[shira]

17. Your friend Tich sees no way 2 states could work due to settlements.

Maybe you can explain...

[Israeli]

21. But I completely agree with him shira ......

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29020.htm

That is quite logical, since the settlers now play a pivotal role in the conflict. It is they who prevent any peace agreement, or even meaningful peace negotiations.

It is quite simple: any peace between Israel and the Palestinian people will necessarily be based on ceding the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip to the future State of Palestine. A world-wide consensus on this is now in place. The only question is where exactly the border will run, since there is also a consensus about minor mutually agreed swaps of territory.

This means that peace would necessarily entail the removal of a large number of settlements and the evacuation of the settlers throughout the West Bank.

The Settlers and their allies dominate the present Israeli government coalition. They object to giving up even one square inch of occupied territory of the country God has promised us. (Even settlers who do not believe in God do believe that God has promised us the land.) Because of this, there are no peace negotiations, no freeze on building activities in the settlements, no move of any kind towards peace.

The settlers went to their locations in the West Bank specifically for this purpose: to create “facts on the ground” that would prevent any possibility of the establishment of a viable Palestinian state. Therefore it is quite immaterial whether it is the settlers who prevent the return of the occupied territories for peace, or whether the government uses the settlers for this purpose. It comes to the same: the settlers block any peace effort.

As the Americans would put it: It’s the settlers, stupid.

You can love the settlers or hate them, oppose them or embrace them as much as you like – the fact remains that the settlements are by far the main obstacle to peace and the welfare state. Not just because of their cost, not just because of the pogroms their inhabitants carry out from time to time, not just because of the way they dominate the political system. But because of their very existence.

[shira]

22. So why advocate for 2 states when you think it's impossible now?

It appears your advocacy is phony.

Why not drop the pretense & call for 1-state since you now believe 2 states cannot work?

[Israeli]

24. I truly dont believe in a one state solution shira ....

.....in the best of all possible worlds ...yes ...but in the world of Judea and Samaria ruled by the settlers and by god ....not a hope in hell .

Hope lives eternal tho ....:

If Israel were a proper state, it would not continue to hold a million people under military rule for the entire era of its maturity (50 out of 68 years). A proper state does not cooperate with a small messianic group with narrow interests. Through the false claim that the occupation is irreversible, this small group has dragged an entire state to an abyss and has deceived the whole world.

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/10/israel-settlements-in-the-west-bank-are-not-irreversible.html#ixzz4NePA6mNQ

[shira]

25. So what are you advocating if not 2 states? n/t

[Israeli]

28. Gush Shalom has always advocated for two states shira ...

...........since its conception .

What we believe is open for all ....
@ http://www.gush-shalom.org/

and at http://adam-keller2.blogspot.co.il/
and at https://www.facebook.com/GushShalom/

You cannot have a two state solution that includes Judea and Samaria ie "The Wild West Bank "...ie the fanatical messianic settlers .....ie the dream of a "Greater Israel ".

You seem to think we can .

You seem to think we can all get along and love one another in this fantasy of yours ...

Two State Solution means no Judea and Samaria shira .....no Wild West Bank ...no dream of a Greater Israel ............no more religious Right wing American fanatics like Baruch Goldstein
and Meir Kahane , Baruch Marzel and Moshe Levinger......not forgetting Dov Lior and Ben-Zion Gopstein .......last but not least ...Yigal Amir.

Last but not least shira ......Yigal Amir.

Its not about the Palestinians versus us ......its about us versus you .

[shira]

29. So you believe, unlike Tich, there can be 2 states. I agree with you too...

Tich doesn't believe the 1947 Partition, Clinton's Parameters, the Geneva Initiative, or Olmert's 2008 offer could have worked. Tich is against land swaps.

She is totally against 2 states.

I posted an article just yesterday about the Palestinian justice system that treats dogs better than Jews. Which proves there can't be a peaceful 1- state solution and that the only possibility for peace is separation and 2 states. Little Tich denies Jews living in settlements as Palestinian citizens under PA rule would be threatened. The very fact Jews would get killed if they lived in a future Palestine (within settlements under PA jurisdiction) proves there cannot be 1-state. Tich doesn't get it and yet you think Tich is closer to your political views than any 2-state Zionists here. Go figure.

[Israeli]

43. With regard to .....

Tich doesn't get it and yet you think Tich is closer to your political views than any 2-state Zionists here. Go figure.

Dont tell me what I think shira .....I can do that for myself .

FYI I dont know Tich from Adam ....dont even know if Tich is male or female ...but with regard to the settlements I completely and totally agree with him/her .

[Little Tich]

20. Anything that provides equal rights is good enough for me.

That's an excellent idea that actually could work if there ever was a Palestinian state. From what I understand, Jerusalem would be the economic engine of a Palestinian state, and this solution would be part the components that would create a successful Palestinian state. However, I think there's no reason to wait for an ephemeral peace treaty to start making things better for East Jerusalem on the ground.

I'm glad that there are people out there who still think that peace is achievable.

[Israeli]

44. With regard to .....

I'm glad that there are people out there who still think that peace is achievable.

See : http://972mag.com/how-thousands-of-palestinian-and-israeli-women-are-waging-peace/122801/

Also see : http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/10/march-of-hope-women-peace-movement-netanyahu-left.html

Summary

Many Israeli politicians chose to ignore the March of Hope for fear of being branded "leftist," although participants spanned the spectrum.

Its not the people that have given up on Peace Little Tich......its our politicians who have .

[Little Tich]

45. The current status quo can't stay forever - peace will eventually break out, one way or the other.

This March of Hope is pretty cool - too bad it's not given the news coverage it deserves...

[leftynyc]

14. Good for hillary

Representing the vast majority of Americans rather than a teeny minority. The UN truly has come to mean Useless Nations. This latest stunt is vile.

[King_David]

19. +1