Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumIsrael Must Recognize Its Responsibility for the Nakba, the Palestinian Tragedy
For true reconciliation between Israelis and Palestinians, Israel must recognize what it has done to the Palestinian people over the last 68 years.Saeb Erekat May 15, 2016 10:41 AM
For the Palestinian people, the Nakba is a collective tragedy whose wounds have yet to heal 68 years later. What we call the ‘Catastrophe’ is not just the destruction of at least 436 villages or the forced displacement of 70 percent of our people, but of our ethnic cleansing at the hands of a colonialist strategy. For reconciliation between Israelis and Palestinians, Israel must recognize what it has done to the Palestinian people.
It is time for Israelis to confront reality: when the Zionists came to Palestine, there were another people living here. Over 100 years ago, a Zionist mission was sent to Palestine and their report acknowledged this fact: “The bride is beautiful but she is married to another man.” And this: soon plans to displace Palestine’s population were unveiled. Millions of Palestinians still pay for the colonialist British promise referred to as the Balfour Declaration. No people on earth would have accepted such a clandestine deal, sealing their fate to a foreign power intent on wiping its presence and identity from the land they came from, tilled, and souls returned to.
Unfortunately, Nakba deniers throughout Israeli society continue to use neocolonialist nationalism to rejects the existence of the Palestinian people while redefining traditional constructs of colonialism to justify the systematic Israeli theft of Palestinian land and deprivation of Palestinian human rights.
Palestinians are Arabs who immigrated to Israel. We Jews fended off the attacks by seven Arab armies in self-defense. These declarations deny the very existence of the Palestinian people, continue to justify the atrocities committed against us, and deny Palestinian refugees’ legitimate right of return. However, if Israel aspires to live in peace in the region, it must face its own archival evidence attesting to the past that ties our two peoples together. Even 68 years after the Nakba, Jews are still the minority in historic Palestine while Palestinian Christians aren’t even recognized by Israel as Palestinian. Israel cannot continue to deny what it has done to the Palestinian people, and it’s time it understood that coexistence means acknowledgment.
Israeli historian Tom Segev described in eloquent, yet raw detail the pillaging of Palestinian homes at the hands of the so-called first Israelis in his well-regarded book 1949: The First Israelis. They found the remnants of Palestinian families forced out of their homes so recently that dust hadn’t yet settled on the letters, photographs, and toys left behind – the memories of the hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees never allowed to return home simply because they were not Jewish.
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6chars
(3,967 posts)No war on Israel, no nakba. p.s. what about the Jewish nakba, of 1 million middle eastern jews forcibly dispossessed of their homes?
shira
(30,109 posts)Looks like the Israel haters want the Jews to apologize for not offering their necks to be slit.
procon
(15,805 posts)Do you only allowing glowing puff pieces and complimentary praises?
aranthus
(3,385 posts)But when you get down to the core of the anti-Israel position. Such as the Nakhba myth. Then yes. It's hate. The core of the Palestinian position is denial of the Jewish right to a state based on Arab/Muslim chauvinism and antisemitism. Why does the Left go along with that?
procon
(15,805 posts)You must know that most of the world does not support your claims. Israel cannot be held blameless for its tyranny after decades of an unjustifiable occupation. We can object to the political rhetoric on both sides as the leaders are all self serving blowhards, but its the common man, the little people with nothing, that pay the price when the big dogs and potentates start wars from the safety of their protected bunkers. And for what purpose, what goal? How long is it now, 68 years of oppression, discrimination and injustice, and by any measurement that sure looks like hate on many levels.
aranthus
(3,385 posts)But your disagreement is totally unjustified. Not by the evidence, not by morality and not by logic. But to stop talking in generalities, let's at least see where we agree and disagree. Let's start with the foundation issue.
The Jews of Palestine had a right to create their own state in at least some part of Palestine in 1947. Agree or disagree?
procon
(15,805 posts)It seems to creep ever onward, acre by acre, do you suppose it will it stop at some point? Maybe then, the Palestinians can achieve their own rights, parity and equality.
shira
(30,109 posts)Are you embarrassed to admit you believe Israel had no right to exist in the first place?
procon
(15,805 posts)If I wasn't clear, and apparently forgot to add the appropriate praise, yes, shira, your Israel can have their very own state with pretty ribbons and bows, unicorns, cupcakes, fireworks and a parade. There, did I fulfill all of your demands now or must swear an affidavit, prostrate myself or perform some other ritual to pass inspection here?
Fozzledick
(3,860 posts)That's the one thing that really matters, and the one thing that the Palestinians have never agreed to.
Without peace, everything else is just hot air.
shira
(30,109 posts)aranthus
(3,385 posts)In 1947, the Palestinians had the exclusive right to all of Palestine for their state. Agree or disagree?
Or you could answer my first question.
Bok_Tukalo
(4,323 posts)Or are you talking about something wholly special only attributed to that specific tribe?
aranthus
(3,385 posts)First, I certainly didn't mean that the principle applies only to the Jews. In this case, it applies to the Palestinians as well. They are a separate people, they aren't a part of some higher sovereign, and they have a right to their own state. Also to the French, Americans, Japanese and any other existing sovereign nation. So if all you're concerned with is the I/P dispute, then it's a simple answer.
Where it gets tricky, is when you go beyond that and have multinational sovereigns like the UK, Spain, Yugoslavia, and the Soviet Union, where the component nation has a well defined territory. Do the Basque have the right to there own state independent of Spain? What about the Kurds in Iraq and Turkey? The UK allowed Scotland to vote on independence, but did the Scots have the right to independence even if the central government didn't want to grant it? Out there in the larger world there's a balance between national and sovereign rights, that isn't present in the I/P dispute. And what about very small tribes?
So the short answer is that the Palestinians, among others, have the right to a state, but I'm not sure that every group or tribe does.
King_David
(14,851 posts)That's laughable.
Most of the world had oppressed Jews forever.
There's only 12 Million Jews in the world as opposed to more than a Billion Muslims ....
Your claims are laughable.
Fozzledick
(3,860 posts)And we mustn't forget America's perfidious sneak attack on the peace-loving Japanese forces at Pearl Harbor!!1!
Godspeed! 
shira
(30,109 posts)aranthus
(3,385 posts)They can start by allowing all of the Silesian and Prussian Germans to return to their homes in what is now Poland. So what if that turns Poland into a German majority state. Justice for Germans!
King_David
(14,851 posts)Godspeed
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)I personally believe that all persons have the right to live in their ancestral homeland, and that includes Palestinians.
BTW, phrase "The bride is beautiful but she is married to another man." is often used, but it's not sure where it's from:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_bride_is_beautiful_but_she_is_married_to_another_man
branford
(4,462 posts)is that the Palestinians and many Muslim and Arab countries (and apparently France) don't believe that the Levant is the ancestral homeland of Jews.
Denial of this historical fact and rampant antisemitism extends to the man on the street in the region all the way up to the United Nations. The recent UNESCO vote we've been discussing in other threads couldn't make this fact any clearer.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)have no right to live there are wrong.
Do you believe that Jews and Palestinians have the right to live in their ancestral homeland?
branford
(4,462 posts)and self-determination is a fundamental aspect today of much of the Muslim and Arab world (and not an insignificant number of people in the West, increasingly among the left, as the Labour Party in Britain or attacks against Jews in France attests).
You might believe these people are wrong, but these attitudes are facts, and cannot simply be hand-waved or wished away. Many of the "peace plans" basically demand Israelis to take ever increasing risks to the personal safety on a world you would like, not the world as it is.
Jews were left to the tender mercies of outsiders far too many times throughout history, with the Shoah as just one particularly horrible and recent example. If you want Israelis and the wider Jewish diaspora to take risks for peace, a whole lot more needs to change.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)commemorate the events without government harassment?
‘Nakba law’ passes vote in Knesset committee
Source: Jerusalem Post, 03/15/2011
(snip)
I believe that those who believe that Israel isn't the ancestral homeland of the Jews and that they have no right to live there are wrong.
Do you believe that Jews and Palestinians have the right to live in their ancestral homeland?
shira
(30,109 posts)....killing 1% of the population. No attempt to massacre Jews, no Nakba.
Israel's no more responsible than Czechoslovakia for Sudetenland German refugees.
============
Reminds me of civilian deaths in Gaza when they're used as human shields by Hamas.
Hamas bears all that responsibility as well, not Israel.
Tony_FLADEM
(3,023 posts)For example,
Sholmo Ben Ami the former Foreign Minister of Israel said the Palestinians were in a state of terror and panic and were uprooted under the impact of massacres and atrocities perpetrated by the Israeli Army.
Ari Shavit an Israeli author admits that Israelis have done wrong to the Palestinians.
Tom Segev an Israeli historian admits here that hundreds-of-thousands of Palestinians were expelled in 1948 and it's still an open would that needs to be dealt with.
Yitzhak Rabin the former Prime Minister of Israel discusses here how Palestinians were evicted from a town called Leeda.
?t=1744
Israeli
(4,151 posts)Have a read here @
http://zochrot.org/
Tony_FLADEM
(3,023 posts)
Igel
(35,317 posts)Yes, there were Palestinian Arabs driven out by Israeli forces.
There were also those driven out because they simply feared fighting.
And there were those who were told to evacuate before the fighting started, that they'd be protected by Arab forces, their lands liberated, and the common folk would be able to return shortly.
When there's a confrontation--"all the Palestinians were driven out by Israeli forces"--you're often forced into a corner and to make extreme statements to keep it simple. "Some were" would be an admission of guilt, of responsibility, and all listening to the end of the sentence, "... but most weren't" would cease. Eventually you believe the absolutist statements because, well, it's better to be innocent than partly guilty.
It would have been best not to have been confronted with a false accusation, but that's not how some cultures work. Better a strong offense and absolute denial of any wrong-doing than to consider the facts.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Source: Wikipedia
Opening of archives
(snip)
The document details 11 factors which caused the exodus, and lists them "in order of importance":
1. Direct, hostile Jewish [ Haganah/IDF ] operations against Arab settlements.
2. The effect of our [Haganah/IDF] hostile operations against nearby [Arab] settlements... (... especially the fall of large neighbouring centers).
3. Operation of [Jewish] dissidents [ Irgun Tzvai Leumi and Lohamei Herut Yisrael]
4. Orders and decrees by Arab institutions and gangs [irregulars].
5. Jewish whispering operations [psychological warfare], aimed at frightening away Arab inhabitants.
6. Ultimate expulsion orders [by Jewish forces]
7. Fear of Jewish [retaliatory] response [following] major Arab attack on Jews.
8. The appearance of gangs [irregular Arab forces] and non-local fighters in the vicinity of a village.
9. Fear of Arab invasion and its consequences [mainly near the borders].
10. Isolated Arab villages in purely [predominantly] Jewish areas.
11. Various local factors and general fear of the future.
Read more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus#Criticism_of_traditional_positions
Morris's Four Waves analysis
(snip)
Decisive causes of abandonment Occurrences
military assault on settlement 215
influence of nearby town's fall 59
expulsion by Jewish forces 53
fear (of being caught up in fighting) 48
whispering campaigns 15
abandonment on Arab orders 6
unknown 44
Read more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus#Morris.27s_Four_Waves_analysis
