Israel/Palestine
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MP Naz Shah suspended from Labour
Source: BBC
27 April 2016 UK Politics
Labour has suspended MP Naz Shah over comments she made about Israel.
The Bradford West MP has been heavily criticised over the Facebook posts, including one suggesting Israel should be moved to America.
She offered a "profound apology" in a Commons statement for the posts which were made before she became an MP.
Earlier party leader Jeremy Corbyn warned her about the "offensive and unacceptable" posts and David Cameron called for her suspension.
Labour said: "Jeremy Corbyn and Naz Shah have mutually agreed that she is administratively suspended from the Labour Party by the general secretary.
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Read more: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36148704
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kayecy
(1,417 posts)So far we have only been told that one of her posts said ".....including one suggesting Israel should be moved to America."
A ridiculous suggestion no doubt but anti-Semitic?
Was Churchill subject to equal criticism when he said "....The only way to deal with the Irish problem is to get the Royal Navy to tow it out into the Atlantic and sink it"?
King_David
(14,851 posts)Hopefully further clean out of trash by Labor continues.
ericson00
(2,707 posts)kayecy
(1,417 posts)But is it anti-Semitic?.........Or are you guys only interested in supporting "politically correct" statements?
ericson00
(2,707 posts)this is not about political correctness.
kayecy
(1,417 posts)You said: "....the Jews achieve things; there is no right to hate them."
Did Shah say she hated Jews?.......If not, why are you all so abusive about the woman?......
Do any of you know what she posted on her Facebook page or are you all so biased that you consider the anyone making negative comments about Israel must be written off as "good riddance to bad rubbish"?
LeftishBrit
(41,208 posts)LeftishBrit
(41,208 posts)I used to semi-defend him, but he's getting worse and worse. I don't know what's in the River Thames this week, but what with these vile comments of Ken on the one hand, and Boris (who has always been an unprincipled prat, but not crazy) making those remarks about Obama's Kenyan heritage on the other... Such a great and diverse city could do without racism at the top.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Source: Times of Israel
Former London mayor told he’s brought party into disrepute; British Jewish leadership: He lacks all decency, expel him from Labour
Britain’s opposition Labour Party on Thursday suspended a veteran and senior member, Ken Livingstone, after he claimed that Adolf Hitler was initially a supporter of Zionism “before he went mad and ended up killing 6 million Jews,” and charged that for decades in the UK there has been a “well-orchestrated campaign by the Israel lobby to smear anybody who criticizes Israel policy as anti-Semitic.”
The comments by Livingstone, a veteran former London mayor who sits on Labour’s national executive and heads the opposition party’s international policy commission, prompted outraged calls, including by many of his colleagues, for his removal from the party, and intensified a crisis in Labour over anti-Semitism within its ranks.
“Ken Livingstone has been suspended by the Labour Party, pending an investigation, for bringing the Party into disrepute,” Labour announced.
The Board of Deputies of British Jews said Livingstone should be kicked out of Labour altogether. Board President Jonathan Arkush said: “Ken Livingston’s comments were abhorrent and beyond disgraceful. His latest comments combine Holocaust revisionism with anti-Semitism denial, when the evidence is there for all to see. He lacks any sense of decency. He must now be expelled from the Labour Party.”
Read more: http://www.timesofisrael.com/in-spiraling-anti-semitism-row-labour-suspends-livingstone-for-saying-hitler-backed-zionism/
kayecy
(1,417 posts)A transcript of Livingston's comments shows that he said the following of Hitler:
“Let’s remember when Hitler won his election in 1932, his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism – this before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews"
“He didn’t win the election, he became the largest party in 1932, his policy here wasn’t to kill the Jews it was to deport them all to Israel. The simple truth, if you go back and check, that was Hitler’s policy when he first came to power – to move Germany’s Jews to Israel. I denounce that"
Holocaust revisionism?.......Anti-Semitism denial?..........Have British Jews and the Labour Party gone mad?
LeftishBrit
(41,208 posts)Hitler never 'went mad'; he was always crazy in his views. He wrote that vile document 'Mein Kampf' well before 1932. He became more powerful, not crazier, as time went on.
And yes, he wanted to deport all so-called non-Aryans, before he got the idea of killing them all. But is that acceptable? Wanting to deport people is better than killing them, but it's still ethnic cleansing and against human rights. 'Zionism' refers to voluntary emigration to/residence in Israel, not deportations.
And there was no such place as Israel in 1932.
'Have British Jews and the Labour Party gone mad?'
Only in the American sense of 'getting mad'.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Because these Jews can't tell what is and isn't Antisemitism , they need other people like you to explain it to them. Because Jews can't tell what's Antisemitism and what's not - what do they know on this topic---right?
LeftishBrit
(41,208 posts)I do not equate criticism of Israeli policy with anti-Semitism and have often defended people, including Livingstone in the past, against charges of anti-Semitism on these grounds - but good grief, linking Hitler to Zionism, and at best equating 'making aliyah' to deportations, are NOT criticisms of Israeli policy; they are sheer bigoted lunacy.
kayecy
(1,417 posts)Your comments are valid but do not constitute a justification for Livingston to be castigated as a “disgusting Nazi apologist” or anti-Semitic.
I asked if British Jews and the Labour party had gone mad because such unjustified castigation is making both of them look more interested in ‘political correctness’ than in free-speech. I take it you do believe in the right of everyone to free speech?
- but good grief, linking Hitler to Zionism, and at best equating 'making aliyah' to deportations, are NOT criticisms of Israeli policy; they are sheer bigoted lunacy.
But Hitler WAS in the process of negotiating with Zionists in 1933 and for voluntary transfer, not ‘deportation’.
(see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement)
The Haavara Agreement was an agreement between Nazi Germany and Zionist German Jews signed on 25 August 1933. The agreement was finalized after three months of talks by the Zionist Federation of Germany, the Anglo-Palestine Bank (under the directive of the Jewish Agency) and the economic authorities of Nazi Germany. The agreement was designed to help facilitate the emigration of German Jews to Palestine. While it helped Jews emigrate, it forced them to temporarily give up possessions to Germany before departing. Those possessions could later be re-obtained by transferring them to Palestine as German export goods.[1][2] The agreement was controversial at the time, and was criticised by many Jewish leaders both within the Zionist movement
Were you aware of these negotiations?
LeftishBrit
(41,208 posts)yes, there were limited negotiations about transfer in the 1930s; but that hardly makes Hitler's policy pro-Zionist; it does mean that he took some advantage of Zionism, as he did of many things.
Hitler was for far longer and far more extensively involved in an alliance with the Soviet Union: that did not make Hitler a supporter of the Left, much as some right-wingers might like to represent it in that way.
In any case, why did Livingstone need to bring up Hitler at all in this context?!
Secondly, as regards 'free speech': having free speech does not mean having the right to be considered as a representative of the Labour Party, regardless of what one says or does. People have the freedom to campaign for the Tories, but they would rightly be kicked out of/ not admitted to the Labour Party if they did so - and vice versa. E.g. as far as I'm concerned, Blair lost the right to be considered as a representative of the Labour Party when he ganged up with Bush!
shira
(30,109 posts)....anyone accused of antisemitism?
Do you also go around racing to the defense of White nationalists and Islamophobes?
kayecy
(1,417 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)....were rallying. Google it if you don't believe it.
Let me guess:
Not bigoted in your opinion?
shira
(30,109 posts)That's pretty fucking bad.
Wanna now walk your defense of Shah back?
kayecy
(1,417 posts)Nearly half of Israeli Jews believe in ethnic cleansing:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/almost-half-of-israeli-jews-want-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-wake-up-call-survey-finds-a6919271.html
Unlike Shah, these Israeli Jews have not apologised......
shira
(30,109 posts)Can you do it?
kayecy
(1,417 posts)I think you might be wrong there........ The offending map with its accompanying proposal of mass transfer of Israelis was first posted by Prof. Norman Finkelstein and quickly reposted by many others, including Naz Shah
http://jfjfp.com/?p=82502
shira
(30,109 posts)I'm sure you don't have a problem with that either.
Israeli
(4,151 posts)Haaretz Apr 30, 2016
Former London Mayor Ken Livingstone says he's sorry for causing a disruption or any offense with his claim that Adolf Hitler supported Zionism early in his political career — but not sorry for saying so, even citing Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's infamous Mufti comments.
"How can I have hurt and offended the Jewish community when the prime minister of Israel said exactly the same thing?" Livingstone said Saturday, adding that he had only made a "statement of fact" concerning Hitler that had been seized on by his political enemies, so called "embittered old Blairites," to stir up trouble.
Livingstone has been suspended from Labour's National Executive Council because of his comments and party leader Jeremy Corbyn has launched an independent inquiry into anti-Semitism and other forms of racism in the party.
Livingstone said his statement was similar to those made by Netanyahu last October, according to which Hitler had supported Jewish immigration mandate-era Palestine until the Mufti of Jerusalem suggested he "burn them" instead.
"Invite the Prime Minister of Israel to come over and defend me, as he clearly agrees with what I said," Livingstone told LBC radio.
“Two days before I did that interview [on Thursday], the prime minister of Israel Binyamin Netanyahu is addressing the World Zionist Congress, this is the sentence he says: ‘Hitler didn’t want to exterminate the Jews but only to expel them.’ Now, I haven’t seen that in any British paper, I had to get it off the internet.”
“This is what annoys me about the degradation of British journalism, no one does any research,” he said, claiming British media downplayed Netanyahu's statement but zealously reported his.
Livingstone's timeline was off, as Netanyahu made the comments last October. Moreover, Netanyahu never claimed Hitler supported Zionism.
Livnginstone did voice some remorse for the crisis sparked in the Labour party by his comments: “I regret mentioning Hitler because it brought up this nonsense," he told LBC. “I’m sorry to Jeremy [Corbyn] and the Labour party that I am caught up in this but it wasn’t me that started this problem.
“I’m sorry if anyone was upset by what I said, I’m sorry for that. But it happens to be a statement of fact. I’m sorry that I said that because it’s wasted all this time but I can’t bring myself to deny the truth and I’m not going to do that. I’m sorry it’s caused disruption.”
The uproar over Livingstone's comments has unsettled Labour backers ahead of Thursday's elections, which include choosing a new London mayor.
Livingstone, a close ally of Corbyn, predicted he would ultimately be restored to his executive position.
AP contributed to this report
Source: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.717079
branford
(4,462 posts)or implying that because Netanyahu made foolish remarks it somehow absolves Livingstone or excuses the increasingly obvious and frightening antisemtism in the Labour Party and left-wing British circles?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/2016/apr/30/labour-antisemitism-ken-livingstone-george-galloway
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/30/livingstone-muddies-history-to-support-hitler-and-zionism-claims
Israeli
(4,151 posts).........never heard of the guy before all this .
He does have a point tho ...
http://972mag.com/an-alliance-of-hate-the-israeli-rights-ties-to-european-facism/118580/
LeftishBrit
(41,208 posts)racist idiots). No wonder he always seems to get on with American Republicans.
However, Netanyahu has never pretended to be a left-winger.
I expect a left-winger, especially someone whom I'd supported since I lived in London 30 years ago (on one occasion, backing him for Mayor against one of my favourite MPs), to NOT pander to the unhinged! I expect something better of him than just to be no worse than Netanyahu! Naz Shah at least apologized; Ken has just been digging his hole deeper and deeper.
From Blair to Clegg to Livingstone, you support them and then, in different ways, they just spit in your face in the end!
No wonder I don't belong to a party, and prefer to support campaigning groups on particular issues!
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)At the same time, it's getting a bit absurd when people treat antisemitism as the ONLY prejudice that really matters...as WORSE than all other forms of hate.
Let's just agree that all hatreds are equally wrong, all are equally important to speak out against, and all are equally lethal.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Not sure why your qualifying that with your disgusting post .
Imagine if someone on DU said
" it's getting a bit absurd when people treat Islamaphobia as the ONLY prejudice that really matters.."
They would deservedly get pizza.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)I despise antisemitism unconditionally...I just don't accept the right-wing notion that THAT prejudice must be combatted, but other prejudices are of lesser importance. Why shouldn't we, as human beings, simply be working for a world in which no one hates or kills anyone else?
I support Israel's right to exist-it's just that I don't see why a person MUST take that position just to prove they aren't an antisemite. It's not as though Zionism, in its current Likudnik form, is the only effective means to combat antisemitism or protect the world's Jewish communities from antisemitic violence-particularly since a significant number of those who insist that support of Zionism is the only way to be an opponent of antisemitism also insist that the ONLY way to be pro-Zionist is to be an unquestioning supporter of everything Netanyahu does...as if Netanyahu himself is somehow the representative of the entire Jewish population of the planet, or as if he does is itself the only way(or even an effective way) to combat antisemitism?
If you really, really want to defeat antisemitism, standing with Netanyahu is not the way to do that-especially since it's far from clear that Netanyahu himself even wants antisemitism to go away. If I were you, I would not trust him to want that-given how much his continued political survival depends on the survival of antisemitism. He's a man who's party and whose worldview is built solely on a program of fear...not the creation of a decent society for the country he governs, not the end of war and the demilitarization of that country, not reconciliation with the surrounding countries...but a perpetually escalating sense of fear. He can't LET Israel make peace and continue to get elected.
ericson00
(2,707 posts)against Obama on refugees (many from largely Jewish districts), are against Syrian non-Yazidi refugees coming en masse to join our electorate.
LeftishBrit
(41,208 posts)Naz Shah is not from the Middle East. She was born in Bradford, and has family Pakistani connections.
Ken Livingstone who was the most prominent, serious and persistent offender, is from a white British family, who has lived here for generations, probably forever. Ditto for other offenders: David Ward (Lib Dem, with a pattern of anti-Semitic/ extreme anti-Israel remarks); Aidan Burley (Tory, who got into trouble in France over a Nazi-themed stag party); most UKIP members, of whom half would not vote for a Jewish politician - etc.
Your comment makes my blood boil, just as the politicians' anti-Semitic comments did. As a descendant of Jewish refugees, and just as a human being, using refugees as scapegoats for the behaviour of British politicians disgusts me, if I'm to be honest. You know who put the strongest pitch this week for us to accept Syrian refugee children? Alf Dubs, a Jewish Labour member of the House of Lords. You know what contributed to his pitch? That he was himself a child refugee, who came on the Kindertransport and thus had his life saved. Unfortunately, the Tory-dominated parliament voted narrowly against him, but the House of Lords supported him, and it's still being considered.
ericson00
(2,707 posts)which are popular sentiments in the Muslim world today. Also, Israel/Palestinians IS an Islamic cause; if the dome of the rock weren't there, would they care? The Palestinians' first leader was a Mufti, and when the UN was debating, the head of the Egyptian delegation to the United Nations General Assembly, Muhammad Hussein Heykal Pasha, said, "the lives of 1,000,000 Jews in Moslem countries would be jeopardized by the establishment of a Jewish state." Not in Arab countries exclusively, but Moslem [sic]. Also, why is sentiment so far and detached from I/P in places like Southeastrn Asia so uniform? Like Bangladesh and Pakistan lack Israel relations?
And you can see on Memri.org that their countries have anti-Semitic conspiracy propaganda on their mainstream media/society.
Until anti-Semitism in the Muslim world calms, I am scared of a Labour Party like situation with the Syrian Muslim refugees. If they're really that incensed about "Palestine," they can get the f over it.
