Did Netanyahu’s visit divide American opinion on Israel? These are the facts.

[King_David]

----snip------

Similarly, The Washington Times ran a piece leading with “Partisan Enthusiasm Gap Emerges over US alliance with Israel.” And The Times of Israel reported that the partisan gap on American support for Israel is the largest in 40 years.

But is that true? Not exactly. In reality, attitudes are, in the words of the Talking Heads, same as it ever was. Survey trends show Americans’ favorable views of Israel have not been much affected by these recent events. Some partisan differences exist, but those partisan divides have been there for some time. The differences have more to do with the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians than with Netanyahu’s visit.

Overall, Americans support Israel.

Overall, the Chicago Council on Global Affairs’ surveys find that Americans tend to view Israel favorably (giving Israel an average of 59 out of a possible 100 favorability rating), on par with their feelings toward France (61 out of 100). There is a partisan hue to American feelings, as the figure below shows.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/11/09/did-netanyahus-visit-divide-american-opinion-on-israel-here-are-the-facts/

[Gothmog]

1. Bibi is not that popular with many American Jews

Many American Jews dislike Bibi and think that he is siding with the GOP and that this will hurt Israel over the long term.

[King_David]

2. This is about bipartisan American support for Israel

Not about Bibi or Jews.

[Gothmog]

7. And Bibi has undermined that bipartisan American Support

I am American Jew and I am upset with Bibi's tactics.

[King_David]

8. Yes agreed,

How dare he take our support and our parties support for Israel for granted...

Agree 100%

[Little Tich]

3. Israel could have sent their president instead.

I think it's foolish to pretend that nothing of what Netanyahu does reflects badly on Israel. Israel should ditch that racist POS before the damage to Israel is permanent.

[branford]

4. I think you need to study the often terrible relationships thatmany Israeli leaders

have had with American presidents, both Democrat and Republican. Bibi is hardly the first. Nevertheless, support for Israel has largely remained the same or improved over the last few decades, particularly among Republicans after 9-11.

It's true that some Jews, largely liberal Democrats, would prefer someone other than Bibi as prime minister, but it doesn't affect their very strong support for Israel, which remains bipartisan.

I believe you might be viewing events through a very skewed prism, and experiencing some confirmation bias. The very point of the Washington Post article to separate fact from fiction.

[Little Tich]

5. I can't but help feeling that this time is different.

The two-state solution is literally now or never, and and on top of that it beomes increasingly difficult to justify supporting a country that doesn't share American democratic values for younger generations who increasingly see Israel as a problem.

Just look at DU for example; more than a few DU'ers are questoning why the US should unquestiongly support Israel no matter what, when Israel doesn't reciprocate. Now it seems as if they want more money than ever, and perhaps a discussion about whether it's a little bit too much is justified.

[leftynyc]

6. You hit on the problem for

You and the Palestinians right in your post. Americans are not going to wrap their arms around Palestinians BECAUSE their culture and their elected officials in Hamas and Abbas don't reflect American values. They may not like Israels current PM but know the country reflects their values in ways no country run by terrorists and those who encouage the spilling of Jewish blood ever will.

[King_David]

9. Exactly

Why support extremist right wing homophobic ideology?

[Little Tich]

18. I'm not pro-Palestinian, I'm pro civil rights and against racism.

Unfortunately, this puts me on a collision course with Israel's policies and those who support them. I can't see why racism is a bad thing in the US, but a good thing in Israel. Surely the same standards should be applied to everyone...

[shira]

20. Your support of 1-state is not pro-civil rights or non-racist.

Your notion of 1-state grants Palestinian self-determination while taking away the same for Jews. It makes Jews a minority within a majority Palestinian state (under regressive Palestinian leadership) that's guaranteed NOT to be a democracy with civil rights for anyone (like Syria, Jordan, Egypt).

Besides, you don't seem upset with the situation under Hamas and the PA now in the OPT, where there are no civil rights and racism is rampant.

[Little Tich]

21. I'm not a proponent of the one-state solution - I thought you were.

Nevertheless, the one-state solution is the most probable outcome, and there's no reason why Israel with a Jewish minority would cease to be democratic, or its Jewish population would lose their right to self-determination. Look at South Africa for comparison - the race war never happened, and the Boers and the other whites never lost their right to self-determination.

[shira]

22. Sure - you're just against any reasonable 2 state settlement.

... and there's no reason why Israel with a Jewish minority would cease to be democratic, or its Jewish population would lose their right to self-determination.

That's delusional and to prove it....

Name one liberal, progressive Palestinian leader who would prioritize freedom of speech, LGBT/women's rights, and other liberal values while having a chance at winning a majority of Palestinian votes (over Hamas, for example) in any real election.

Does this person exist?

And if you're for civil rights & against racism, why don't you ever voice concern for lack of freedoms and rampant racism under Hamas and PA governance in the OPT?

[branford]

10. I've been hearing that since before the epic disagreements

Last edited Mon Nov 23, 2015, 05:08 PM - Edit history (2)

between George H.W. Bush and Yitzhak Shamir in the early 1990's.

It's exactly the type of confirmation bias I mentioned earlier. If you believe something, everything appears to prove and confirm your views. It's the classic "tipping point" argument that's advanced about many issues, including abortion, gun control, affirmative action, even the death of the Republican party, yet we never cross the horizon, and popular opinion often shifts in the opposite direction.

Of course, you're entitled to your beliefs and opinions, but the Washington Post article helps to thoroughly separate fact versus perception, including polling demonstrating that support for Israel is actually increasing in many sectors.

You mention that some members of DU are not supportive of Israel. This is indeed true, while many others are very supportive. However, DU is a very liberal, exclusively Democratic forum that's not even remotely representative of the general public. If opposition to Israel is not even close to universal on DU, what do you believe the consensus is among more moderate Democrats, independents, and Republicans?

The reasons for these results are varied, and encompass far more than Bibi. Most notably, and as others have mentioned, the Palestinians are often their own worst enemies. I doubt even you would disagree that the democratically-elected Bibi looks positively cuddly to most Americans compared to the rocket-firing, theocratic Muslim radicals of Hamas, and the corrupt kleptocrats of the PA.

[Little Tich]

11. What democratic values, if any, does Israel share with the US?

I've asked this question before, but it seems very difficult to get an answer. I can see that the values of the Republican party are mainstream Israeli values, but what about the values of the Democratic party?

[shira]

12. Israel has been a very liberal/progressive nation for a long time, moreso than the USA

Gay rights, no death penalty, free abortions, universal healthcare, much more self-critical media, more innovative, extremely liberal court system, far better record on environmental issues (only country in world with net gain in trees). Leaders in stem cell research, recycling, better on immigration (Ethiopia, Sudan), state subsidized public college tuition, better labor unions. Israel also started as socialist and still is (moreso than the USA).

Israel had its first Arab President back in 2007. Israel had a female PM back in the 70's named Golda Meir. The Knesset currently has Palestinian factions within it opposed to Israel's existance (the more secular Balad and the Islamist Raam Taal). The Knesset even includes a Communist Party (imagine this in America).

Lastly, in combat Israel's civilian to militant kill ratio is significantly better than the USA and Israel isn't fighting wars thousands of miles away against nations posing no threat to its citizens.

[Little Tich]

13. Gay rights in Israel are just ad hoc, and not part of any universal constitutional values

like they are in all other countries that promotes gay rights. The court system is a joke, and if the victim of a crime is an Arab, there's no justice - remember the Dawabsha family?

Israel does have better healthcare than the US, but many developing countries have better healthcare than the US too...

But what about civil rights and racism? Israel is racist to the core and has different citizenships depending on whether you're Jewish or not. There are many laws that would be absolutely unconstitutional because they would be considered racist in the US and all other democratic countries. There's even a list of these laws if you don't believe me. And on top of that, there's the Apartheid in the occupied territories.

It seems as if I would support Israel, I would either have to overlook Israel's racism and lack of civil rights, or I would have to be a racist. I'm perhaps more to the left than most, but I still see Israel as a mainly Republican issue.

Link to Adalah's list of discriminatory laws in Israel: http://www.adalah.org/en/content/view/7771

Link to Mondoweiss article about these laws: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/06/database-discriminatory-israel

[shira]

14. Seriously - stop. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Last edited Mon Nov 23, 2015, 11:48 PM - Edit history (1)

And I have little tolerance for this silliness. Quoting that vile, racist rat's nest, Mondoweiss - seriously? Those who see Zionism as racism are incapable of seeing it for what it really is - the return of an indigenous people to their historic homeland where they can be safe and free in a society more self-critical and open than any other on the planet. It doesn't get more progressive than that.

As to gay rights, Israel has had progressive LGBT military, marriage and employment-protection policies FAR longer than America. Israel has provided state and municipal funding for LGBT education and social-service initiatives. Tel Aviv is the #1 LGBT city in the world. Even that ogre Netanyahu wasted no time condemning the latest ugly attacks on a gay parade this past summer - which is better than any anti-Israel racist incapable of condemning terror attacks on innocent Jews, or condemning Holocaust denying inciters of murder like Abbas. Which makes Bibi more progressive than the Israel haters. By far, actually...

ps,
I do remember the Dawabsha family. The perps are in administrative detention & aren't going anywhere. Netanyahu unconditionally condemned that vile act as well, which is more than any Israel haters do when there are terror attacks against Jews. One can doubt Netanyahu's condemnation, but Mahmoud Abbas refuses to condemn any terror attacks - and none of his "progressive" cheerleaders have a problem with that.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

15. Another walkaway. You have no tolerance for facts...IMHO.

[shira]

16. How to Identify and Defeat an Internet Troll

Have you ever met an internet troll? A troll is a special class of sociopath.

These nasty individuals are the sadistic ne'er-do-wells of the digital realm, the misanthropic misfits of information age. Unlike a normal person, when a troll enters an online discussion, he is not seeking truth or clarification. He usually doesn't even know how to debate in an intelligent manner. All he wants to do is inflict pain, ridicule, and humiliation on a targeted person.....

http://www.peorian.com/technology/technology-news/trolls-cyberbullies/1079-how-to-identify-and-defeat-an-internet-troll

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

17. Another walk away.

Well, at least you're getting some exercize.

[Little Tich]

19. I have a problem with the blatant racism in Israel.

I just don't have what it takes to become PEP, I suppose.