An Organized Barbarity Called 'Demolishing Terrorists’ Homes'

[Jefferson23]

Insisting on due process in cases of demolition of terrorists' houses obscures the fact that this practice has across-the-board support.

Hagai El-Ad Oct 29, 2015



The political and legal systems in Israel have in recent days been thrown into some turmoil by Supreme Court Justice Uzi Vogelman, who scheduled an emergency hearing on the demolition of the homes of the Palestinian families of the perpetrators of the attacks that killed Eitam and Naama Henkin, Malachi Rosenfeld and Danny Gonen – namely, the Hamed and Ghanem families from Silwad; the Kusa, Haj Hamad and Rizeq families from Nablus; and the Amar family from Qalandiyah – rather than sanctioning the demolitions without further ado.

The judge’s decision meant the demolitions were temporarily put off, thereby raising the ire of those who felt that the destruction of the Palestinian houses ought to have been carried out by now, and they voiced scathing criticism of the High Court of Justice.

Champions of the court leapt to its defense: While sharing the view that the demolitions are certainly merited, they firmly expressed their belief that such justice ought to be implemented only after a proper legal hearing. Truly, what would the civilized world come to if we don’t keep up such appearances?

While the two sides carry on battling one another – so-called extremists versus the law’s knights in shining armor – the heated debate conveniently obscures the fact that, ultimately, the organized barbarity called “demolishing terrorists’ homes” has across-the-board support among the Jewish population in Israel. This unanimity includes those who perceive themselves as soaring high up in the rarified plane of morality and justice: the justices of the High Court. Their rulings have enabled the demolition (or sealing) of over 1,600 Palestinian homes since 1987.

remainder: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.683167

[geek tragedy]

1. that's how people roll in the Middle East--collective punishment is the rule in that

part of the world.

Israel has a lot more in common with its neighbors than it does with France, the US, or Canada.

[Jefferson23]

2. +1. Their neighbors leaders, yes. n/t

[Little Tich]

4. Needless to say, homes of Jewish terrorists never get demolished.

It wouldn't be Apartheid otherwise...

[procon]

5. I was just going to as the same thing.

How do they twist the legalities around to allow such punitive discrimination toward one segment of the population while the other faction goes scot free?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

6. It is nothing less than old southern Klan bigotry in action.

If you were of a certain group then you were above the law.

The same rule seems to have creeped into the soul of Israeli zionism.

[oberliner]

11. This is total BS

Different policies in relation to those who are Israeli citizens as opposed to those who aren't.

[shira]

14. Weird how this animates folks more than terror attacks against 80 year old women. n/t

[geek tragedy]

16. funny how some get more worked up over Facebook posts than collective punishment,

ethnic cleansing, and state-sponsored violence and oppression of occupied people

[shira]

17. How is it possible not to get worked up over UN employees inciting.....

....the murder of Jews?

[geek tragedy]

18. if you were a Palestinian living in Gaza, or the West Bank for that matter,

would you have a positive view of Jews?

You pretty obviously don't have a positive view of Palestinians, so by what reasoning do you figure that your antipathy towards Palestinians makes sense but also figure that Palestinians' resentment of Jews all comes from propaganda and incitement, rather than the O-word.

[shira]

19. This isn't about positive/negative views of Jews.....

This is about inciting violence and murder of Jews.

[geek tragedy]

20. Do you consider calls for ethinc cleansing of Palestinians to be hateful incitement? nt

[shira]

21. Do you? If so, calling for the ethnic cleansing of all Jews from the W.Bank & Gaza.....

....would be hateful incitement too.

To answer you, no - it's hateful but not incitement.

[geek tragedy]

22. Well, you have posted articles explicitly calling for Arabs to be ethnicly cleansed,

so maybe you should reform your own behavior before complaining about it when others do the same.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=65930

[shira]

23. No I haven't. Read the article again.

And haven't you called for all Jews being ethnically cleansed from the W.Bank?

[geek tragedy]

24. I did. Here, let me quote for you the hateful, genocidalist incitement you posted at DU

The logic is inexorable, unfortunately. We commit suicide as a society or we keep the territories — without the Arabs. The Arabs of Judea and Samaria must be encouraged to emigrate. Maybe it can be peaceful and even profitable for them, maybe not. That will depend on them and on the “international community.”

That is explicitly calling for ethnic cleansing.

So, you do not object to racist incitement, or human rights abuses.

You only want to score points against Arabs because you see them as your enemies.

You and your type are no better than the UNRWA people posting hateful garbage on Facebook.

Except they have an excuse, since they all are living under conditions that would give Americans PTSD if suffered for 48 hours.

And, no, I have always maintained that if Jews want to live in the future Palestinian state, pay taxes there, disarm, live under the laws of the Palestinian state, and give up the protection of the IDF, they should be able to live there.

[shira]

25. You missed a few of my comments about not seeing page 2 of that article....

I never supported the call for forced ethnic cleansing in that OP.

[geek tragedy]

26. the article is published at a well-known Jewish hate site that reveres Meir Kahane nt

[shira]

27. The writer of that article also wrote the following...

The murderers of the three Jewish boys are still at large, and — oh yes — in the case of Muhammad Abu Khdeir, the Arab boy who had gasoline poured over him, and was burned alive. The three suspects are Jews. No further details have been released as yet.

The cold-blooded depravity of this crime makes it stand out, even in the context of the Jewish-Arab conflict. I would happily put a noose on the necks of the killers myself (I would feel this way whether they were Jews or Arabs). The fact — assuming that it is determined that they are guilty — that Jews did this is shocking.

http://www.jewishpress.com/blogs/fresno-zionism/a-very-bad-weekend/2014/07/06/

That doesn't reek of hate.

And Meir Kahane would never write anything like that.

What I'd give to see Israel's most hostile critics vent like that against cold-blooded terrorists attacking elderly Jews or killing off entire families. Sadly, these Israel haters just don't have it in them.

[shira]

112. So you're good with 2 states & Jews living as Palestinians within a future Palestine?

That implies you support the Jewish state.

But you believe it's an Apartheid state, so.....? You support an Apartheid state?

i'm just looking for consistency in your thinking.

[PatrickforO]

33. Hmm.

Here's what Andrew Jackson said about the American Indians on several occasions:

Fourth Annual Message to Congress, December 4, 1832
Substantial deficit reduction despite Indian 'removal and preservation' costs; oblique reference to economics of converting Indian land first to public land, then selling parcels to settlers at cost; Sac and Fox uprising put down -- disaffected tribes 'dispersed or destroyed'; the 'wise and humane' Indian removal policy is steadily pursued and approaching consummation -- Secretary of War reports; Georgian Cherokees resist removal.

"After a harassing warfare, prolonged by the nature of the country and by the difficulty of procuring subsistence, the Indians were entirely defeated, and the disaffected band dispersed or destroyed. The result has been creditable to the troops engaged in the service. Severe as is the lesson to the Indians, it was rendered necessary by their unprovoked aggressions, and it is to be hoped that its impression will be permanent and salutary." -- Andrew Jackson

Fifth Annual Message to Congress, December 3, 1833
Survivors of Sac and Fox War of 1832 removed west of Mississippi; 'inferior' Georgian Cherokee continue to resist 'force of circumstances' and refuse removal; Jackson reiterates removal and 'political reorganization' form the best and only option for continued existence of eastern Indians.

"My original convictions upon this subject have been confirmed by the course of events for several years, and experience is every day adding to their strength. That those tribes can not exist surrounded by our settlements and in continual contact with our citizens is certain. They have neither the intelligence, the industry, the moral habits, nor the desire of improvement which are essential to any favorable change in their condition. Established in the midst of another and a superior race, and without appreciating the causes of their inferiority or seeking to control them, they must necessarily yield to the force of circumstances and ere long disappear." -- Andrew Jackson

Sixth Annual Message to Congress, December 1, 1834
Military blocks 'inroads' of Western frontier Indians; Creek removal imminent, Seminole next, Cherokee stubbornly refuse against own best interests; Indian Trade and Intercourse Acto of 1834 made law, restricting treatied sovereignty of Western Indians.

"I regret that the Cherokees east of the Mississippi have not yet determined as a community to remove. How long the personal causes which have heretofore retarded that ultimately inevitable measure will continue to operate I am unable to conjecture. It is certain, however, that delay will bring with it accumulated evils which will render their condition more and more unpleasant. The experience of every year adds to the conviction that emigration, and that alone, can preserve from destruction the remnant of the tribes yet living amongst us." -- Andrew Jackson

I guess the reason I bring this up is that the United States in its expansion west basically pursued a colonialist policy. We went into the land, created terror groups of 'rangers' who would massacre American Indian men, women and children and burn their villages. If that didn't work, they burned the crops and killed all the bison. If that didn't work, they sent blankets infected with smallpox. Slowly, surely, the white Americans moved across the continent, ethnically cleansing the indigenous people and then stealing their land. Seems like there's a parallel here with the West Bank settlers...

[shira]

35. There is no parallel. Only the fringest of the fringe nuts in Israel....

....would do to the Palestinians what Americans did to the Native Americans.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

59. See "The Nakba" you old historian, you.

[shira]

68. There was a war, you know. Israel did not start that....

In every war the past century, there have been refugees.

If the Palestinians had agreed to 2 states in 1947, there wouldn't be any refugees today.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

82. Your lame excuses are laughable as always.

...but they wouldn't hold up in court.

Anything for Israel, right?

[shira]

84. War isn't a lame excuse. Name one in which there were no refugees.

I'll wait until you stop laughing maniacally with your emoticons.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

101. You always play the either or game: to your usual humiliation.

The question is not "Name one in which there were no refugees", and you know that, but the question really is "Name one in modern history where the aggressor kept land that did not belong to them."

I'm glad I could get a chance to set you straight...as is usual.

[shira]

106. Changing the topic in midstream b/c you're losing the argument....

The topic was ethnic cleansing, refugees, etc...

When you've got nothing on that, you'd rather discuss land that was never once sovereign Palestinian land.

How utterly lame.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

109. AHAHAHAHAH!

You're out of your depth.

[Crunchy Frog]

38. Thank you for posting about these heroic incidents from our country's glorious past.

Makes my heart swell. And we had no choice because we were dealing with murderous terrorists. I completely understand where the Israelis are coming from.

[shira]

69. What do you make of Hamas' genocidal intent & terror based on that intent? n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

58. I believe that you are being completely disingenuous.

The situation in the West Bank is deplorable due to its institutionalized illegal colonization by Israeli Jews: with tacit governmentsl approval...as some ignore such a blatant pogrom of ethnic cleansing/apartheid.

The individual attacks, on Israelis by Palestinians, on Palestinians by Israelis...even the instances of Israelus on Israelis is heinous in their barbarity.


So please stop with the victimizationof one sude only. It Doesn't make your posts appear in anyway partial...IMHO.

[shira]

66. Are u more offended by Israel demolishing terrorists' homes in the W.Bank....

....or with the brutal, senseless knife attacks against elderly women, children, and other random innocents?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

85. Are you more offended by chicken or roast beef, shira?

Your "either or queries" are as laughable as they appear sophomoric.

[shira]

86. Simple question - what do you fear by answering it? n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

103. I prefer fish, actually.

[shira]

108. Do you have something to hide by dodging the simplest questions? n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

111. I just find your "either or" questions rather sophomoric in nature and ridiculous overall.

[geek tragedy]

15. true, the purpose is more ethnic cleansing than per se apartheid

demolish Arab homes, force them to move, seize the land, give it to the privileged settler class

[oberliner]

28. Not even remotely

The purpose is to deter people from committing terrorist attacks against Israelis.

Whether it's effective or not is a reasonable question - so is whether it's an appropriate action to take (personally, I do not think it is) - but that's the actual purpose behind the policy.

[geek tragedy]

36. are these the only home demolitions Israel conducts? nt

[oberliner]

46. No

Israel has also demolished structures (including homes) in unrecognized towns. However, in those cases, they provide money and alternate housing to the families who are impacted.

This is very different from demolishing the homes of the families of people who commit terrorist attacks who obviously receive no such compensation.

[geek tragedy]

53. Is East Jerusalem an unrecognized town? nt

[oberliner]

56. No, East Jerusalem is part of the Occupied West Bank

And, thus, is not part of Israel (contrary to what Netanyahu and friends might tell you).

[Little Tich]

30. Having two different legal systems for civilians due to their ethnicity / nationality is one

one definition of Apartheid.

This is why the house demolitions are an expression of Apartheid, apart from being a barbaric practice that goes against international law and is completely counterproductive. Israel is a bottom rung democracy for doing this, and this kind of barbarism must be stopped.

[oberliner]

32. Israel has the same legal system for all civilians

There is no distinction made based on ethnicity or nationality.

[Little Tich]

37. Not for non-Israelis in the occupied territories.

There are also different laws in Israel for Israelis with full (Jewish) citizenship and those without, but that's not discriminatory enough to count as Apartheid.

Do you think that having two different legal system for civilians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem is Apartheid or not?

[oberliner]

45. Obviously

A country's laws only apply to the citizens of that country.

[Little Tich]

51. The only places I know of with two separate legal systems for civilians are

Apartheid South Africa and the territories occupied by Israel. There is nowhere else, and if there were, it would be Apartheid as well.

Perhaps your political position is what is sometimes called PEP?

[oberliner]

88. England and Scotland have two different legal systems

So do Quebec and Ontario.

[Little Tich]

104. I think you're misunderstanding the issue on purpose.

This is going nowhere...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

117. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=117504

[geek tragedy]

61. That's not how it works in the United States. nt

[shira]

67. Non-citizens do not have the same rights as citizens of the USA. n/t

[geek tragedy]

70. very few differences, assuming they're here legally nt

[shira]

71. They don't have the same rights - and it's not apartheid. n/t

[geek tragedy]

73. They have the same rights if they're here legally.

They can work, travel, own property, etc etc.

Also, they already have citizenship in their home country.

And the United States isn't occupying their village and erecting apartheid walls around it.

[shira]

76. Over 10 million American citizens are denied voting rights & most are minorities....

Most citizens who are in prison are minorities and they have no voting rights. In Israel, citizens in prison can vote...

Those living in Guam, Puerto Rico, and the US Virgin Islands are citizens who can't vote in elections either.

So is the USA more an apartheid country than Israel?

==============

Walls aren't apartheid. There were no walls before suicide terror attacks at the beginning of this millenium. Since the walls, far fewer suicide attacks.

[geek tragedy]

77. That you compare how Israel treats all Palestinians to how the US treats convicted felons

speaks volumes.

[shira]

78. Just saying - if you think Israel is Apartheid, then America is moreso.

Own it.

Personally, I think it's ridiculous to argue either one is Apartheid.

============

Israel treats its Palestinian citizens differently (equally) than how it treats Palestinians in the territories.

Let's not pretend otherwise.

[geek tragedy]

79. the West Bank is an apartheid state, de facto

the only question is how soon before the apartheid in those territories renders meaningless the absence of apartheid within Israel's official borders

[shira]

80. If you say so.....then America is even more Apartheid.

How does it feel living in an Apartheid country like America?

[geek tragedy]

81. there is nothing in the United States remotely as hideously racist

as the Israeli apartheid state in the West Bank, and hasn't been since we outlawed Jim Crow.

[shira]

83. 10 million Americans, most of whom are minorities, might disagree.

And you're not doing anything to counter your own Apartheid state.

Go figure.

[geek tragedy]

87. oy. perhaps you don't realize how profoundly stupid your argument is.

You're trying to claim the moral high ground for Israel because it treats Palestinians like convicted felons.

Last word is yours. Not sure why I even bothered.

[shira]

90. You're the one arguing apartheid when Palestinians have equal rights....

....in Israel and are able to take the government to court - and win - when they are being discriminated against.

I never said Israel treats Palestinians like convicted felons - that's your straw man. I'm just saying that if you think Israel is Apartheid, then logically America is even moreso. Palestinians can BTW vote from prison in Israel since they're Israeli citizens (as opposed to America). Not sure why you'd think Israel should extend the same rights to Palestinians in the W.Bank who are not citizens.

Of course, you ignored the fact that no American citizens in the US virgin islands, Guam, or Puerto Rico can vote. Almost all of whom are minorities - which obviously proves America is racist beyond belief.



Don't you think it's beyond hypocritical to pretend being outraged by Israel's non-Apartheid while you show no concern whatsoever for the Apartheid happening within your own country?

[geek tragedy]

91. the west bank is an apartheid state. there are Jews-only roads, Jews-only towns,

the legal system explicitly protects Jews and discriminates against Arabs, Jewish violence towards Arabs is tacitly encouraged in the West Bank.

Note how they never really tried to catch the Jewish terrorists who burned that Palestinian baby and his entire family alive. And never will. Because the Jewish terrorist settlers in the West Bank are doing the Israeli government's dirty work.

[shira]

92. It's not apartheid - and there are no Jew-only roads....

I think you mean Israeli-only roads, right?

Do you care how honest and accurate your arguments are?

[geek tragedy]

93. Lol, Israeli-only roads that lead to Jews-only colonies inside the West Bank. nt

[shira]

94. Palestinians live in the settlements too.

So we have Israel only roads that lead to settlements which Palestinians also live in. Did you not know this?

[geek tragedy]

95. Making shit up again? Please provide a link showing the % of the West Bank

settlement residents who are Arabs.

[shira]

96. Dec. 2014: Leave or let live? Arabs move in to Jewish settlements

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/07/us-israel-palestinians-settlements-idUSKBN0JL0D620141207#HVBeG4ku42DhdTfG.97

But in one such settlement, around Mount Scopus where the Hebrew University is based and many Palestinians study, about 16 percent of residents are either Arab citizens of Israel or Palestinians, according to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics.

Official figures from 2013 show 7.4 percent of French Hill residents are Arabs, and Mazal believes the true non-Jewish population is closer to 20 percent.

In the working-class areas of Pisgat Ze'ev and Neve Yaacov to the northeast of Jerusalem's Old City, 1 to 2 percent of residents are now Israeli Arab or Palestinian, figures show.

The Jerusalem municipality does not collect ethnic data, but Uzi Chen, the City Hall representative for northern districts, said "several hundred" Arab families live in Pisgat Ze'ev and Neve Yaakov, which have a combined population of 63,000.

[geek tragedy]

97. So you consider Jerusalem a settlement rather than part of Israel proper? nt

[shira]

99. Huh? Are they not settlements in your views? Reuters reports them as settlements.

Maybe you're referring to other settlements - and if so where?

[geek tragedy]

100. the apartheid roads in question are not between east and west jerusalem. pay attention nt

[shira]

105. There are no apartheid roads. Did you know Israeli Arabs, not Jews....

....can drive on both Israel only and Palestinian only roads (Jews are forbidden to drive on them due to safety concerns)?

That you think there are roads in the W.Bank Israel's Arabs wouldn't want to drive on - to visit family and friends in the W.Bank - is laughable.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

60. That statement really brings out the Netanyahu

in your argument.

[Solero]

52. It's immoral whether they're citizens or not

[shira]

72. Which offends you more? Terror attacks on random Jews or demolition of terrorists' homes? n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

57. I do declare, Mr. Oberliner, that your basless retort

is giving off vapours of a rather unsavory nature.

One can draw a fairly direct comparison between how African Americans were treated in the old "Jim Crow" Southern USA and how Palestinians are treated WRT a different set of laws for them while Israeli Jews, living illegally in the West Bank, enjoy a cometely different standard.

The Palestinians are treated like slaves in their own country.

And some just have to keep lying for Israel that they aren't.

[shira]

74. Palestinians who are Israeli citizens aren't treated like Palestinians in the W.Bank....

Ask yourself why.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

102. The Bedouin are. God, you are fekking awful.

Ask yourself why.

[shira]

107. The Bedouin would be the first to tell you they're not Palestinians.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.533155

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

110. And yet they're supposedly Israeli citizens, and are treated as badly as Palestinians in the WB.

[shira]

113. Bedouin are treated badly by anti-Zionist BDS'ers who boycott them...

U OF WINDSOR STUDENTS PROTEST LECTURE BY ISRAEL’S FIRST BEDOUIN DIPLOMAT
http://www.cjnews.com/home-featured/u-of-windsor-students-protest-lecture-by-israels-first-bedouin-diplomat

Boycotted because he doesn't hate Israel to the satisfaction of BDS holes.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

114. BDS isn't stealing Bedouin land, Shria, but do go on with your phantoms...

[shira]

115. Funny, the Bedouin diplomat doesn't agree with you at all...

Disappointed?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

116. Nobody worth a damn buys what you're selling.

And I am certainly not disappointed by that.

[Israeli]

119. Me neither ...nt.

[oberliner]

10. Israeli citizens vs. non-Israeli citizens

This policy only applies with respect to non-citizens.

The homes of Israeli Arabs are not destroyed.

[procon]

12. I see, as long as it only involves discrimination against Palestinians, its perfectly fine?

What if we did the same thing here? Let's say we burn out the homes of Hispanics, just the non-citizens mind you. The homes of Hispanic Americans would not be destroyed. If that still sounds great to you, I gotta tell you straight up, that's discrimination writ large. Its Apartheid at its worst, an outrageously indefensible policy that is universally condemned.

[oberliner]

29. Didn't say it was fine

I oppose the policy.

I just pointed out why it was applied in the way that it was.

Israeli citizens of all races, religions, and creeds are not subject to the same policies as non-citizens.

[azurnoir]

42. Tell that to Bedouin of the Negev

[oberliner]

44. The Bedouin of the Negev?

As far as I know there is no member of that community who committed a terrorist attack against fellow Israelis and then had his or her family's home destroyed as a result.

[azurnoir]

48. and yet it shows my point the Bedouin as non-Jews have their homes demolished

to make way for Jewish communities in Israel so being an Israeli obviously does not protect Israeli Arabs, their homes are demolished in any event

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

62. Don't you jest love the easy hypocrisy

of armchair hasba?

Is there an explaining class that the obviously amateur ones can take to bone up on how to not sound like they are completely full of cow poo?

[Israeli]

120. Wrong oberliner.....

Mohannad Khalil Salam al-Okbi's family's mourning tent was destroyed the day after it was set up ....give them time with his family's home....they will get there .

ref : http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/10/israel-bedouin-community-terrorist-neglect-stigmatization.html

[Crunchy Frog]

39. More like if we moved into Mexico, and burned out the houses of non-American Hispanics

while sparing the homes of American citizens whose family members had done the same thing, even if the Americans were living there illegally. That seems like a more apt comparison.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

63. That sums it up in a nutshell.

[Solero]

54. Perfect analogy

Once you start denying people their basic human rights based on citizenship status, you're opening the door to all manner of atrocities being committed. Besides, it's against international law.

[6chars]

75. it's so horrible when something bad happens to terrorists

Don't worry though, the PA gives the families lots of money when a terrorist attacks Jews, so it kind of evens out.

[geek tragedy]

89. yes, every criminal's mother should be forced to live on the street. As should his children and

grandchildren.

Maybe Israel should just go ahead and round up entire villages and shoot them when a village member commits an act of terrorism. I'm sure you'd find a way to excuse that.

Thank goodness the US doesn't have the Israeli mentality.

[procon]

98. Oh please, just stop it.

If terrorism is your cause célèbre, then there's more than enough blame to go around on both sides without wading into the shallow end of the pool and dumping off this insipid crap. Debate the issue, if you can, or make up some rational reason to justify guilt by association and explain the legal argument that convicts and punishes others through mere kinship or by their common street address.

If you think it's OK to do it them "them" because they are the "others" that you think are unworthy, then it makes just as much sense to do it to you and yours, yeah?

[6chars]

118. i just don't lose much sleep over this one

The reason that this punishment is reserved for these terrorists is that their families consider them heroes and the PA rewards their families with money. So when they go to suicide bomb or stab or whatever, they do it with the idea that they are doing a great thing for their families. The policy is intended to change that equation and thereby discourage terrorism. I actually don't think the policy is that effective, so that's a problem with it.

[azurnoir]

7. why does Israel continue this practice after studies showed it did nothing

to prevent or dissuade terrorists?

[geek tragedy]

8. punishment is intended to satisfy society rather than deter criminals

the response from Israeli society after terrorism attacks is that they want to hurt someone on the other side. This is not an unusual reaction on a human level, Israel's institutions do more to indulge this impulse than one sees in European countries or those in the western hemisphere.

[Jefferson23]

9. Deterence, or so they think..they're not interested in the consequences as

evidenced by their reliance on it no matter what.

[azurnoir]

41. That's just it Israel's own studies show it doesn't work as a deterrence

so why other than revenge?

[oberliner]

47. What studies?

Can you provide a link to one such study?

[azurnoir]

49. An Israeli military committee I suppose we could quibble study but here's the link

Yet the deterrent effect of house demolitions has never been proven. In his book on the first intifada, Brigadier General Aryeh Shalev (Res.) examined the effect of house demolitions on the scope of violence. He found that house demolitions did not lead to a decline in the number of violent incidents. Moreover, at times, house demolitions were followed by greater number of incidence. In their book The Seventh War, Israeli journalists Amos Harel and Avi Isacharoff reported that there was no proof of the deterrent effect of house demolitions, and that the number of attacks actually went up a few months after the policy was implemented.

In February 2005 a military committee, chaired by Major General Udi Shani, reached a similar conclusion, determining that the efficacy of the house demolition policy as a counter-terrorism tool was questionable, and that it “walked the line” of legality. Then Minister of Defense, Shaul Mofaz, adopted the committee’s recommendations, and the Israeli security establishment stopped using this measure, with the exception of the 2009 demolition of one residential unit in East Jerusalem and the sealing of two others, also in East Jerusalem.

http://www.btselem.org/punitive_demolitions

[Jefferson23]

50. I think the message has always been: submit, ya bastids!

They're persistent that way.

[procon]

13. Terrorism.

Revenge.
Subjugation.
Retaliation.
Domination.
Despotism.
Retribution.

Take your pick. Israel's brutal policies will continue as long as long as the US turns a blind eye and allows them to get away with it. If the US demanded the same level of human rights and freedom from Israel as it does from other suspect regimes,it would go a long way toward curbing discrimination.

[oberliner]

31. Nothing that you've written here is true

The US maybe should worry about its own discrimination. It dwarfs anything going on in Israel.

[procon]

34. True, and I would not dispute that.

But there's no denying that without the enormous impact of US clout, influence, money, weapons, etc., Israel could not independently maintain its current policies.

[oberliner]

43. Most likely true

However, I do not believe there is a scenario where the US will sever its relations with Israel.

[Solero]

55. Unfortunately that might be the case

But the fact we're funding this gives us some influence over them, and it's about time we put it to good use.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

64. Do you ever get tired of using that "nothing line"?

"Nothing that you've written here is true."

Yes, I understand that some need to play the devil's advocate; no matter how insincere their retorts are, no matter if they never back up their retorts with substance or just keep using the same tired, old, fangless challenges.

Nobody seeing these sedentary, unexcercised replies, without merit, would believe them.

Please, ober, work harder if you want to be believeable.

[oberliner]

65. Good point

That was definitely a pretty weak response. Sometimes I do get lazy with my writing on here.

[6chars]

40. Eh