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R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
Thu Aug 27, 2015, 03:42 PM Aug 2015

Israel’s destruction of Mamilla cemetery part of effort to remove Palestine from Jerusalem

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/08/destruction-palestine-jerusalem


Mamilla cemetery does not exist anymore. What exists now is a hotel, a school, a parking lot, a public garden, a nightclub and the US consulate. Also a museum to celebrate tolerance. But the meaning of tolerance in West Jerusalem, a few steps away from the Old City, is surreal — to build the story of a new Jerusalem, the Israeli authorities are erasing its past. Mamilla cemetery is a prominent cornerstone of the Arab, Islamic and Palestinian identity of the city. But today it’s a forgotten place.

Since the creation of the State of Israel, the Israeli government has worked to remove the graveyard from the heart of West Jerusalem. “In 1948, the year of Nakba, the catastrophe of the Palestinian people, the upper part was immediately transformed into a public park, renamed ‘Independence Park’, aimed at celebrating the victory in the ’48 war. They created the garden, uprooting and removing dozens of ancient tombs.” explains Nader Dajani as he walks between what remains of the cemetery of his ancestors. The Dajani family is one of the most ancient and wealthy families in Palestine, several of its members are buried in Mamilla.

“In the Israeli project the only things that deserve to survive in Mamilla are two shrines: one belongs to a famous local scholar, and one to Ahmad Dajani, a well known sheikh. The only reasons behind this decision is the archeological importance of the shrines and also their sizes: it’s easy to remove a small tomb, a stone; it’s harder to uproot a huge one”.

Today, the graveyard has almost disappeared. A few ancient tombstones are relegated into the lower part, covered by grass and trash. It’s not easy to estimate how many gravestones were located there but, according to an investigation by the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, at least 1,500 tombs were removed by bulldozers and the human remains just thrown away. “The Palestinian residents of Jerusalem have to ask the Israeli State for the permission to clean and take care of the cemetery,” Dajani says. “And every time they refuse. If we come and do some work, after a while they destroy what we build to protect the tombs”.


I'm just waiting for the usual hasbarist denials to be along any moment now.
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COLGATE4

(14,732 posts)
2. Yep. That and the fact that the Palestinian religious authorities
Thu Aug 27, 2015, 04:14 PM
Aug 2015

have declared this area to no longer be an active cemetery for a great many years now.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
3. "...at least 1,500 tombs were removed by bulldozers and the human remains just thrown away."
Thu Aug 27, 2015, 04:28 PM
Aug 2015

That's not just bullshit, it's straight up incitement. Mondoweiss shouldn't be allowed on a liberal board.

It's a hate site...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=110253



 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
6. Here's the source of that claim
Sun Aug 30, 2015, 10:00 PM
Aug 2015

From Ha'aretz:

The Israel Antiquities Authority would not say how many skeletons have been removed from the Museum of Tolerance site, and passed the query to Alon Shavit, who did not respond to the question. The Wiesenthal Center responded to questions from Haaretz on that issue by saying that “the developers did not and could not interfere with the excavation rescue works, and that the archaeological project was licensed to Tel Aviv University, and the work on the site was conducted by Dr. Alon Shavit.”

Among the workers and the archaeologists, the numbers vary. But all those interviewed by Haaretz agree that no fewer than 1,000 skeletons were excavated at the site. One worker, who was familiar with the numbers as part of his job, puts the figure at more than 1,500. The only serious scientific examination done at the site, by Sulimani, indicated there were 1,000 skeletons, a number that concurs with the workers’ accounts.

The skeletons that were removed were transferred for reburial in a common grave inside the fence of the work site, in a long and narrow strip along the site’s eastern boundary, which falls in the area of of the Muslim cemetery. Therefore, the museum will not be built on the reburial site of the skeletons.

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/museum-of-tolerance-special-report-part-ii-secrets-from-the-grave-1.290941

You can see how the Mondoweiss writers manipulated the information presented in the Haaretz piece.

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
7. Quote fail.
Sun Aug 30, 2015, 11:24 PM
Aug 2015

Your selective quoting of a few paragraphs misrepresents the whole article...

Museum of Tolerance Special Report Part II: Secrets From the Grave
Source: Haaretz, May 18, 2010


Round-the-clock work, long shifts and unprecedented security characterized the five-month excavation of the cemetery on the museum site, where sources say more than 1,000 skeletons were unearthed.

The earthworks
The first one to excavate the site and come upon human remains was archaeologist Gideon Sulimani. Sulimani, a senior archaeologist with the Antiquities Authority, would come to play a key role in the affair. In December 2005 he began a “rescue excavation” financed, as mandated by Israeli law, by the Simon Wiesenthal Center, intended to remove antiquities, or in this case, human bones, before the area was cleared for construction.

The act of excavation thrills Sulimani, from a scientific point of view. A serious excavation, says Sulimani, could open a window into the lives of Jerusalem’s Muslim residents over the past millennium. In this case, however, he says that there was pressure on him to hurry up and remove the graves without adhering carefully to professional standards.
“They constantly wanted to lengthen the work days and I was always fighting to shorten them. They told me: Switch teams, work in shifts. But I can’t bring someone into someone else’s excavation. That’s something that is not done,” he says.

The pressures Sulimani faced during the excavation were also typical, apparently, of the next part of the works. After the High Court ultimately rejected the Islamic Movement’s petition, in October 2008, and thus permitted work at the site to continue, the digging was resumed with greater urgency. Testimony obtained by Haaretz indicates that the guiding principle of the work was not a careful and scientific archaeological excavation, one that was respectful of the remains found at the site, but rather an excavation that proceeded as quickly as possible so as to leave the whole skeleton affair behind, so that full attention could be turned to building the Museum of Tolerance.

“We were like a small army, made up of workers, and area managers above them, and the archaeologists above them,” is how one worker summed up what life was like for him and his co-workers at the time. “From 40 to 70 workers per shift. You have to arrive 15 minutes before your shift and wait by the gate. The guy in charge comes with a list of names and lets people in one by one. You have to show ID at the entrance. Then they take your phone and you have to wait at the side until the previous shift collects its things .... The skeletons themselves were disintegrating, whatever comes out comes out, if you can put it in a box you do, and if it’s crumbling you leave it.”

Unlike the vast majority of archaeological excavations in Israel, in this excavation the work was carried out around the clock, in three eight-hour shifts. The workers were recruited by word of mouth, and the attractive wages that were being offered drew in numerous willing laborers. Pay ranged from NIS 35 to 40 per hour, and was even higher during the night shift. The standard wage in archaeological excavations is about NIS 25 per hour. The cost of the excavations is not known, but figures provided by the Moriah company and published on the company’s Web site indicate that Sulimani’s initial excavation, which was of shorter duration and less intensive, cost NIS 3.5 million. The excavation last year presumably cost more than that.

Read more: http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/museum-of-tolerance-special-report-part-ii-secrets-from-the-grave-1.290941


There are some ghastly pictures of this parody of an archaeological dig to go with the article. All in all, it strongly points towards the conclusion that the Mondoweiss article is true, and that you're misrepresenting facts to discredit a story you know is true.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
8. Huh?
Sun Aug 30, 2015, 11:39 PM
Aug 2015

I just posted the paragraphs that mention the 1,500 figure that the poster had asked about (with a link to the entire article).

The Mondoweiss article says: "...at least 1,500 tombs were removed by bulldozers and the human remains just thrown away."

That's what the two posters were going back and forth about, so that's why I excerpted those particular paragraphs.

These paragraphs are where that figure comes from.

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
9. Aha. So it was a completely botched archaeological dig, and the remains weren't properly collected,
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 12:22 AM
Aug 2015

catalogued or reburied, and remains that were too decomposed were just dug up and discarded, or left in the ground, but the remains were not just thrown away...

The point of the OP is the one of the Haaretz article - That the Marmilla cemetery dig was a disgrace, adn it was done in collusion with the authorities in order to just get rid of Arab remains without any archaeological concerns. You seem to be very careful not to comment on whether the dig was OK or not, all you do is taking a single passage from the OP and attacking it.

Perhaps the offending sentence from the OP could be rewritten: "The remains from at least 1,500 tombs were discarded in another part of the cemetery, and the rest of the remains that were were too decomposed were thrown away." The difference is subtle, but it would stop you from dismissing the whole OP.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
10. I didn't dismiss the whole OP
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 12:36 AM
Aug 2015

I just pointed out how the authors manipulated the information from the Ha'aretz piece.

The paragraph says: "The only serious scientific examination done at the site, by Sulimani, indicated there were 1,000 skeletons, a number that concurs with the workers’ accounts."

Yet the Mondoweiss article instead takes the previous sentence which indicates one unnamed worker saying the figure was over 1,500 and uses that higher figure.

Also the paragraph says "The skeletons that were removed were transferred for reburial in a common grave".

Yet the same sentence in the Mondoweiss article says: "human remains just thrown away".

The Mondoweiss version suggests that over 1,500 human remains were thrown away - which is definitely not supported by the Ha'aretz article it claims to be referencing.

An effective point could have been made about the lack of care taken in the excavation without hyperbole and lying (the hallmarks of Mondoweiss).


Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
11. What about the other part of the OP that isn't that actual sentence?
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 03:41 AM
Aug 2015

Do you have any opinion on the quality of the "excavation" at all? After all, it's not just Mondoweiss, there is another article in Haaretz too...

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
14. The Ha'aretz article that I provided the link to covers that topic quite well
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 10:03 AM
Aug 2015

I see you appreciated my providing of that link so much that you posted it again (without attributing that you only became aware of the link because I already posted it).

I think this Mondoweiss article is a perfect example of what Mondoweiss is all about. Take something someone else already wrote and build wild and ridiculous hyperbolic nonsense around it.

The title is a lie. The first paragraph is a lie. The second paragraph is a lie. And on and on and on.

These are the hallmarks of Mondoweiss: 1. Exaggerating 2. Lying 3. Omitting 4. Drawing ridiculous and unfounded conclusions 5. Demonizing the other side.

The report from Ha'aretz is an actual report with actual facts and an attempt to provide context (and even get a statement from the other side of the argument - gasp!).

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
15. While I think that your opinion on the matter of the excavation is a little bit vague,
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 12:29 PM
Aug 2015

I still have to accept it.

And yes, I've grasped that you don't like Mondoweiss, but the thing is that this particular article from Mondoweiss is accurate, apart from that particular sentence that indicated that all the remains were thrown away and not just some of them.

I'm pretty open to criticism, but if you can't give me anything to go on, I must consider Mondoweiss to be mostly accurate, because that's my impression of the site and most of the articles there. It doesn't mean that I'm going to post Mondoweiss material, but it means that I have to consider you to be just a little bit grumpy for no reason when it comes to Mondoweiss.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
16. With all due respect, you are 100 percent wrong
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 02:56 PM
Aug 2015

This particular article from Mondoweiss is completely inaccurate from top to bottom including misrepresenting the very report it claims to be using as a reference point.

The title is a blatant lie.

Every sentence of the first paragraph is not true.

Every sentence of the second paragraph is not true.

The premise that the article is based on is a lie.

I am not "grumpy" when it comes to Mondoweiss. I have a level of disdain for it than any reasonable person ought to have.

If someone regularly posted items from Free Republic or some crazy vanity blog, they would be treated with the same contempt.

The fact that not everyone jumps on these Mondoweiss posts with that same fervor shows either a willful blindness (since they attack Israel, they must be progressive!) or worse.

 

shira

(30,109 posts)
12. True BDS isn't about boycotts as much as it is about hate incitement....
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 06:29 AM
Aug 2015

....delegitimization and defamation.

Note the recent defense for the staging of manufactured news at Nabi Saleh, and now this.

BDS is first and foremost a vicious propaganda war. The distribution of hatred on a mass scale. I dare say this is unparalleled in the 21st century. Imagine this happening to any other ethnic, racial, or religious group & how they'd go bonkers in response.

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
13. Anyone interested in further info should read the Haaretz article on the subject:
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 07:01 AM
Aug 2015
Museum of Tolerance Special Report Part II: Secrets From the Grave
Source: Haaretz, May 18, 2010


Round-the-clock work, long shifts and unprecedented security characterized the five-month excavation of the cemetery on the museum site, where sources say more than 1,000 skeletons were unearthed.

The earthworks

The first one to excavate the site and come upon human remains was archaeologist Gideon Sulimani. Sulimani, a senior archaeologist with the Antiquities Authority, would come to play a key role in the affair. In December 2005 he began a “rescue excavation” financed, as mandated by Israeli law, by the Simon Wiesenthal Center, intended to remove antiquities, or in this case, human bones, before the area was cleared for construction.

The act of excavation thrills Sulimani, from a scientific point of view. A serious excavation, says Sulimani, could open a window into the lives of Jerusalem’s Muslim residents over the past millennium. In this case, however, he says that there was pressure on him to hurry up and remove the graves without adhering carefully to professional standards.
“They constantly wanted to lengthen the work days and I was always fighting to shorten them. They told me: Switch teams, work in shifts. But I can’t bring someone into someone else’s excavation. That’s something that is not done,” he says.

The pressures Sulimani faced during the excavation were also typical, apparently, of the next part of the works. After the High Court ultimately rejected the Islamic Movement’s petition, in October 2008, and thus permitted work at the site to continue, the digging was resumed with greater urgency. Testimony obtained by Haaretz indicates that the guiding principle of the work was not a careful and scientific archaeological excavation, one that was respectful of the remains found at the site, but rather an excavation that proceeded as quickly as possible so as to leave the whole skeleton affair behind, so that full attention could be turned to building the Museum of Tolerance.

“We were like a small army, made up of workers, and area managers above them, and the archaeologists above them,” is how one worker summed up what life was like for him and his co-workers at the time. “From 40 to 70 workers per shift. You have to arrive 15 minutes before your shift and wait by the gate. The guy in charge comes with a list of names and lets people in one by one. You have to show ID at the entrance. Then they take your phone and you have to wait at the side until the previous shift collects its things .... The skeletons themselves were disintegrating, whatever comes out comes out, if you can put it in a box you do, and if it’s crumbling you leave it.”

Unlike the vast majority of archaeological excavations in Israel, in this excavation the work was carried out around the clock, in three eight-hour shifts. The workers were recruited by word of mouth, and the attractive wages that were being offered drew in numerous willing laborers. Pay ranged from NIS 35 to 40 per hour, and was even higher during the night shift. The standard wage in archaeological excavations is about NIS 25 per hour. The cost of the excavations is not known, but figures provided by the Moriah company and published on the company’s Web site indicate that Sulimani’s initial excavation, which was of shorter duration and less intensive, cost NIS 3.5 million. The excavation last year presumably cost more than that.

Read more: http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/museum-of-tolerance-special-report-part-ii-secrets-from-the-grave-1.290941

Note: Superfluous? Hey, I'm just posting the exact same thing twice...
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