Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumPM condemns ‘horrific, heinous terror attack’ on Palestinians
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Friday forcefully condemned the arson attack on a Palestinian family — in which an infant was burned to death — as a “horrific, heinous” crime that is “a terror attack in every respect.”
Two homes in the Palestinian village of Duma, south of Nablus, were set alight, and the Hebrew words “Revenge” and “Long live the king messiah” were spray-painted on their walls, alongside a Star of David, overnight Thursday-Friday, apparently by Jewish extremists.
The child killed in the attack, Ali Saad Dawabsha, was 18 months old. The infant’s parents, as well as his 4-year-old brother, were all injured and evacuated to the hospital. The mother and toddler were in critical condition.
“I am shocked by this horrific, heinous act,” said Netanyahu in a statement. “This is a terror attack in every respect. The State of Israel deals forcefully with terror, regardless of who the perpetrators are.”
http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-condemns-terrible-heinous-terror-attack-on-palestinians/
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villager
(26,001 posts)...which may be just as well, if it can fray his coalition and get Israel to new elections sooner....
oberliner
(58,724 posts)For instance:
Jewish Home party leader Naftali Bennett said the attack was not “a ‘hate crime’ or a ‘price tag’ — it’s murder.
“Terror is terror is terror,” Bennett added. “The torching of the house in Duma and the murder of the baby is a shocking terror attack that is unfathomable.”
And also:
Dani Dayan, the former head of the Yesha Council settler organization, told Army Radio he hoped those responsible would be caught.
“Such crimes must be rooted out without hesitation,” he said. “If anyone is inciting to such crimes, they too should be thrown into jail.”
Israeli
(4,151 posts)Friday morning’s “price tag” arson attack in the West Bank village of Duma, which killed Palestinian baby Ali Saad Dawabsha and left his parents and brother in critical condition, has been labeled an act of terror by nearly all Israeli and Palestinian politicians alike.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called the arson “an act of terrorism in every respect,” and announced that he has put Israel’s security forces to work: “The State of Israel takes a strong line against terrorism regardless of who the perpetrators are.”
Culture Minister Miri Regev struck a similar tone: “Terror is terror, no matter from which side, Jewish or Arab.”
Meanwhile, Education Minister Naftali Bennett of the Jewish Home party declared: “This is not a ‘hate crime,’ nor ‘price tag.’ This is murder. Terror is terror is terror.” Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked, also of Jewish Home, also referred to terrorism and claimed that in an event such as this, “there is no Jewish or Arab, Left or Right,” just “a battle between the forces of light and darkness.”
The IDF, too, has adopted the same rhetoric as the politicians, labeling the arson an act of “Jewish terror.” IDF Spokesperson Peter Lerner, called the attack ”a barbaric act of terrorism.”
Meanwhile Zionist Camp head Isaac Herzog took a slightly different tone. Although he went further in terms of calling for “leadership” and “soul-searching” in the wake of the murder, he stopped short of using the word terrorism, instead labeling it a “hate crime.”
It is rare for Israeli politicians to refer to price tag attacks as terrorism, and are most often categorized as “hate crimes” or “nationalist crimes.” Frequently, the media frames such attacks as “graffiti,” often forgetting about damage to property or land, both of which are part and parcel of price tag attacks.
By and large, these responses sing from the same hymn sheet: all are big on condemnation, but most utterly fail to acknowledge the endemic nature of settler violence. Lacking, too, is any word on incitement by Israeli politicians. Bennett’s calls to annex the West Bank to Israel, coupled with his infamous statement about having personally killed many Arabs, sit rather awkwardly with his announcement this morning. Shaked, for her part, posted a notorious Facebook update during last summer’s Gaza war in which she called Palestinians “snakes” and suggested that Palestinian mothers and their houses “must go… Otherwise they will raise other little snakes there.”
The only statements from Jewish Israeli politicians that mention the government and army’s systemic failures in stemming Jewish terrorism have come from either Meretz or the Joint List.
In response to the murder, Meretz head Zehava Galon wrote that “the writing was on the wall” and criticized the right-wing leadership for being blind to the “direct line” between their failure to properly enforce the law in the West Bank and incidents such as last night’s lethal attack.
Dov Khenin of the Joint List also indicated that the attack was inevitable and that the link between the arson and Thursday’s stabbing attack at the gay pride parade in Jerusalem is clear: both are the result of “hatred of the other, dehumanization and incitement that snowball into action.” He also called on the Right not to simply condemn and then wash its hands of responsibility.
Ahmed Tibi, also of the Joint List, wondered this morning whether Avigdor Liberman’s nationalist Yisrael Beiteinu still stood by their call to implement the death penalty for terrorists, satirically announcing that the houses of the settlers responsible for the arson would not be demolished by Israel.
The response of Israeli human rights NGO B’Tselem to the Duma arson was unequivocal regarding who is to blame: “[This event] was only a matter of time. It is due to the authorities’ policy of not enforcing the law against Israelis who attack Palestinians and their property.” Such immunity only encourages settler violence, the statement continues, before warning that another incident of this nature is on the horizon.
Saeb Erekat, chief negotiator for the State of Palestine, issued a statement in the same vein: “We hold the Israeli Government fully responsible for [last night’s events]. This is a direct consequence of decades of impunity given by the Israeli government to settler terrorism.” Palestinian Authority head Mahmoud Abbas has said that he will turn to the International Criminal Court to investigate the arson.
The US Department of State issued a strongly-worded statement Friday afternoon, condemning the “vicious terrorist attack in the Palestinian village of Douma.” The statement also extended condolences to the Dawabsha family and called on all sides to “maintain calm and avoid escalating tensions.”
Since 2004, around 11,000 incidents of settler violence against Palestinians have been recorded, according to the statement from the State of Palestine. Hundreds of “price tag” attacks occur each year, the majority of which go largely unreported and involve, inter alia, arson, looting, defacement, destruction of olive trees and other acts of vandalism, as well as physical attacks on Palestinians.
The scale of such attacks indicates the extent to which settler violence is part of the culture of the West Bank and not merely an issue of “bad apples.” The Yesha Council, an umbrella organization of municipal councils of West Bank settlements, posted a statement this morning that “[t]his is not the way of the residents of Judea and Samaria”; however, such condemnations are incredibly rare given the consistent nature of assaults by Israeli settlers.
The indictment rate for such crimes is also extremely low: Israeli human rights NGO Yesh Din has reported that from a survey of Samaria and Judea District Police files investigating attacks against Palestinians and/or their property by Israeli civilians showed that between 2005 and 2014, only 7.4 percent of such cases ended with indictments. Furthermore, since the establishment of the Nationalistic Crimes Unit, tasked with investigating such crimes, the performance of the Israel Police’s SJ District has actually worsened.
Source:http://972mag.com/west-bank-murder-leaders-fail-to-address-nature-of-settler-violence/109485/
villager
(26,001 posts)...the follow up actions (i.e. prosecutions). If any.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)This terrorist will be arrested, tried, and convicted.
villager
(26,001 posts)Well we shall see.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Those suspects were apprehended pretty quickly after that horrible crime and put on trial shortly thereafter.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)The District Court in Jerusalem postponed the trail of the murderers of Mohammad Abu Khdeir on (15 – 07 – 2015) until 22 – 10 – 2015.
The decision to postpone came to be until the hearing of the psychiatrist in charge of the third suspect named “Itmar Zimir” from “Bet Shemesh” in the case “Kidnapping, Burning and killing Abu Khdeir”, and in the coming session oral summaries from the defense and public prosecution will be presented in regards to the case.
The court attempted to hold a “closed session” for the three settlers accused of murdering Abu Khdeir, under the pretext that the session is specialized to hear the minor suspect “Itmar Zimir” and forced the people present to leave the hall, and when his father and mother arrived at Court they strongly objected to be taken out.
http://silwanic.net/?p=60060
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Pretty standard practice in most Western countries.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)In early July of this month the suspect “Yousef Ben David” was viewed by foreign psychiatrist and according to the report ” Yousef is ineligible for trial because he suffers from mental problems”, and that comes in contradiction to the claims of the Israeli psychiatrist that examined the suspect and assured that he was mentally sound”.
http://silwanic.net/?p=60060
oberliner
(58,724 posts)No Israeli psychiatrist found him fit to stand trial.
Your source is, to put it kindly, dubious.
Ben-David has had a history of mental health problems. When his daughter was only one month old he threatened to murder her and was arrested.
The first meeting with the psychiatrist was to determine if there was enough reason to warrant a full and complete mental health workup and the judge determined that there was.
That's why the delay was agreed to. Clearly he is going to enter a plea of insanity. This is not uncommon in murder trials
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)it seems almost habitual in a way, fact is they've been 'evaluating' since last November
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Any of them?
I know there are several Israeli sources you recognize as being biased and unreliable.
I would imagine there must be some Palestinian ones as well. Care to list a few?
If you can find any source besides the one you just used that has the information about the psychiatrist (and isn't just cribbed verbatim from this source) - I will consider it carefully.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)to determine his competency. As to sources there are none I find 100% reliable or unreliable albeit I find the spin in the ways things are reported interesting
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Trials have a tendency to drag on and defense lawyers try to take every opportunity they can on behalf of their client (at least in the US - don't know as much about other countries).
If his insanity claim is seen to be fallacious then it won't fly - but his lawyer has the right to do his best to try to plead his client's case.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)the soldier who was belatedly found to have shot dead two Palestinians in cold blood. The wheels do seem to turn slowly at times.
aranthus
(3,385 posts)I have problems with the whole, "too mentally ill to stand trial," meme, but it's in every defense attorney's bag of tricks. There may be reasons to question the seriousness of some Israelis' claims to pursue justice in these cases, but the psych maneuvering isn't one of them.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)People who are politicizing this ought to be ashamed of themselves.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)
GeoWilliam750
(2,522 posts)The article states that there have been 11,000 recorded attacks, 7.4% of which have led to indictments. Any idea what percentage of indictments led to convictions, and then how many convictions actually led to doing a significant amount of real hard time - rather than a suspended sentence.
Once before you were kind enough to list some of the ones where settlers had been convicted of murdering Palestinians, although as I recall, most of those were not recent.
Israeli
(4,151 posts)Every Left wing NGO specializes ....Yesh Din's specialty is " "there is law".
ref : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yesh_Din
They have an English web site ...
does this answer you ?
http://www.yesh-din.org/infoitem.asp?infocatid=702
Read the full report and the Prosecutions data sheet.
http://www.yesh-din.org/userfiles/Yesh%20Din_Akifat%20Hok_%20English.pdf
GeoWilliam750
(2,522 posts)Will read it this afternoon
GeoWilliam750
(2,522 posts)7.4% of complaints result in indictments, and less than a third of indictments result in convictions of any kind - even pleas to reduced charges.
What would also be interesting to know is the ratio of incidents to complaints. One would imagine that if the complainants know that they are probably wasting their time, and may actually draw unwanted attention to themselves, the number of complaints would be a fraction of the number of incidents.
The other thing interesting is that the report did not explain what the sentences for the few convictions were. Did anyone actually do time, or were they mostly fines and suspended sentences, or were the sentences simply not enforced? Even in the cases where settlers are convicted of killing Palestinians (no sentences comes to mind for the last 10 years), the sentences tend to be less than severe - often less than a simple drug possession offense in the US.
Thus, it appears that the risk associated with settler attacks on Palestinians and their property are truly negligible.
Do you think that I am far off base here, Israeli?
Alfalfa
(161 posts)Considering they have the been the ones inciting it for decades.
He speaks out of both sides of his mouth.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That was a pretty unambiguous statement.
Alfalfa
(161 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)I think this horrific act is repugnant to all Israelis other than some fringe nut cases (fringier and nuttier than Bennett).
Alfalfa
(161 posts)aranthus
(3,385 posts)How hard will she push for justice for people she calls, "snakes?"
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That's one of those BS misquotes that gets spread around so that everyone believes it even though it's not true.
That being said, she's definitely much more concerned with the well being of the settlers than the Palestinians.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)And then the explainers came out saying that she never said it.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Since Bennett has joked about killing "Arabs" in the past, I really don't believe his simcerity in this matter...or his proponents either.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Bennett’s office responded by saying that his comments were misinterpreted. The minister was speaking about killing enemy combatants in the context of army operations, a spokesperson said, adding that it might make more sense to kill captured terrorists rather than apprehending and later releasing them.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinians-rap-bennett-over-alleged-kill-arabs-remarks/
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Very telling. Very telling indeed.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Show the entire statement in context and then folks can pass their own judgement, rather than relying on anyone else's slant.
BS out-of-context quotes are far too prevalently used by folks on all sides (especially on I/P related issues).
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts) Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)That they come on camera to look sufficiently shocked does not change this. it's like Wayne LaPierre looking sad over a school shooting
oberliner
(58,724 posts)What happened was shocking and their reaction was the only appropriate one under the circumstances.
There is no need to make this political - all of Israel condemns this horrific terrorist crime, minus a few crackpots.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Why are there settlers out there?
Who encourages them to be there?
Who pretends there is no border?
Who gives these people IDF backing?
Who refuses to apprehend them for their less headline-worthy crimes?
Who gives them commuted "time served" sentences?
The Israeli government need to be accountable for this. it is their policy and positions that enable, encourage, and defend what we see happening here.
cut the fucking "lone wolf" mythology.
Israeli
(4,151 posts)....politics and religion .....all rolled into one .
" cut the fucking "lone wolf" mythology."
Where have I heard that before ???
Ah yes ....Yigal Amir ...the "lone wolf" of our Right wing mythology.
oberliner....the " I'm a big fan of the truth " ....says... " There is no need to make this political - all of Israel condemns this horrific terrorist crime, minus a few crackpots. "
Heard that before to 
Just a few "crackpots" .....move along ...nothing to see or hear here ...everything is just hunky dory in the Holy Land .................
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)There's little you can do except tapdance around a bag of flaming dog poo at this point.
4now
(1,596 posts)What are you going to do about it?
What happened to those Israelis that burned that Palestinian boy alive?
Have their houses even been demolished yet?
Didn't think so.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)A lot more than talk is taking place.
Lets hope they track these vile criminals down quickly and give them the punishment they deserve.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Source: B'Tselem, 1 Jan 2011
Although settlers in the Occupied Territories live in an area that is subject to military rule, and despite the fact that the settlements have not been formally annexed, Israel has applied a substantial part of Israeli law to the settlers. As a result, Israeli civilians living in the Occupied Territories are not subject to military or local law, as are the Palestinians, but are prosecuted according to the Israeli penal law.
The Emergency Regulations (Offenses in the Occupied Territories – Jurisdiction and Legal Assistance), 5727-1967, enacted by the Minister of Defense in July 1967, provided that Israeli civilians who have committed offenses in the Occupied Territories can be tried also in Israeli civil courts. This created extra-territorial personal status for Israeli civilians in the Occupied Territories. Since then, the Knesset has regularly extended these regulations.
Being subject to the Israeli judicial system, settlers enjoy liberties and legal guarantees that are denied Palestinian defendants in the Occupied Territories charged with the same offense. The authority to arrest an individual, the maximum period of detention before being brought before a judge, the right to meet with an attorney, the protections available to defendants at trial, the maximum punishment allowed by law, and the release of prisoners before completion of their sentence – all of these differ greatly in the two systems of law, with the Israeli system providing the suspect and defendant with many more protections.
Thus, different legal systems are applied to two populations residing in the same area, and the nationality of the individual determines the system and court in which he or she is tried. This situation violates the principle of equality before the law, especially given the disparity between the two systems. It also violates the principle of territoriality, conventional in modern legal approaches, according to which a single system of law must apply to all persons living in the same territory.
Read more: http://www.btselem.org/settler_violence/dual_legal_system
If the IDF even bothers to find the murderers, they will be prosecuted under a different court system than Palestinians. The apartheid system in the WB means that Palestinians are sent to military courts and automatically get harsher sentences, and Israeli settlers are sent to civilian Israeli courts that have all the amenities of a legal system of a civilized country, and where they can and will get a lighter sentence.
What Netanyahu is actually saying, is that he's doesn't give a damn about the dead child, he just wants to make sure that the murderers get away with a light sentence...
oberliner
(58,724 posts)"If the IDF even bothers to find the murderers..."
What the hell?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)crimes against Palestinians.
Settler violence: Lack of accountability
Source: B'Tselem, 1 Jan 2011, upd 23 Jan 2013
A principal function of every government is enforcement of the law and protection of the lives, property, and rights of persons under its jurisdiction. Israel is obliged to carry out this function not only as regards Israeli citizens, in Israel or in the Occupied Territories, but also regarding Palestinians who live in the Occupied Territories.
When Palestinians harm Israeli citizens, the Israeli authorities use all means to arrest suspects and prosecute them, including measures that do not comport with international law and that flagrantly breach human rights. The military courts impose maximum sentences on those convicted. However, when Israelis harm Palestinians, the authorities implement an undeclared policy of forgiveness, compromise, and leniency in punishment.
This policy is evident from the start, in the actions of law enforcement authorities in the field – the IDF and the Israel Police – which fail to take the necessary actions to prevent harm to Palestinians and to their property, and to stop attacks by settlers in real time. The arms of government and of the law, jointly and separately, tend to belittle Israeli civilians' violence against Palestinians in the Occupied Territories.
Israeli security forces have done little to prevent settler violence or to arrest offenders. Many acts of violence have never been investigated; in other cases, investigations have been drawn out and resulted in no action being taken against anyone.From the beginning of the second intifada in September 2000 and through December 2011, B’Tselem contacted the Israel Police concerning 352 incidents of settler-perpetrated violence against Palestinians or their property, inquiring whether investigations had been opened in these incidents and what the current status is in investigations that had been opened. Insofar as is known to B’Tselem, in 71 percent of the cases, an investigation was opened; in about 23 percent, no investigation was opened; in 6 percent no response was received or the request could not be located. An indictment was filed in only 11 percent of all cases in which investigations were opened. In cases where settlers were tried and convicted, they were generally given extremely light sentences – in stark contrast to the policy of law enforcement and punishment where Palestinians harm Israelis.
Read more: http://www.btselem.org/settler_violence/law_enforcement
Of course the IDF would rather just pretend this never happened, like they do the rest of the time. Apartheid pisses me off.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Security forces have been ordered to use all means at their disposal to apprehend the murderers and bring them to justice.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Collective punishment, not the rule of law is what is used to control the occupied population in the WB. This system of oppression can't be used for settlers, of course, or it wouldn't be apartheid. Compare this manhunt with the one where three Israelis were killed - there is more than a slight difference: no mass arrests, no nightly ransacking of hundreds of homes, no curfew, no politicians screaming for the death penalty etc etc.
The problem is that settlers are literally above the laws that Palestinians are ruled by, and that the IDF indirectly promotes
this kind of thing by very actively ignoring any wrongdoings by the settlers. This feigned outrage on the Israeli side is just token, and as soon as this tragic event can be sweeped under the carpet, it will be business as usual. The Israeli goverment will then continue to incite hatred just as if nothing happened.
I refuse to take apartheid for granted - it's wrong.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)the Israelis would have sent in tanks after bombing.
There is no manhunt. They don't have names. Or, they do have names but can't squeeze the sources since the price tag crowd's sponsors are in charge of security and civil administration in the West Bank.
Settler violence is not a new problem, and up until this atrocity it was considered a feature not a bug by the Israeli government.
When they start bulldozing the illegal settlements from which these attacks are launched then we can take the Israelis seriously when they say they find this unacceptable.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)It's different though when it is your own citizen committing the act of terrorism.
When that is the case, you try to find him, arrest him, put him on trial, and mete out punishment.
There is a manhunt. They do have names. They don't release those names to the press.
Hostility towards non-whites in the US is not a new problem either, but if somebody burns a baby to death because they are not white, then it would be a much more serious atrocity.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Shouldn't be too hard to find the guys--not that many settlements in the area.
Maybe some threatened house demolitions would loosen the tongues of their sympathizers?
I'll take this seriously when they raze Esh Kodesh, which has been the launching point for multiple price tag terrorist attacks, with no repercussions for the fanatics who live there, even though it's a vanishingly small number of families who live there.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)in the same way he started the latest war with Gaza? Will we be seeing door knocks on the illegal settlements? Doubtful.
Yeah, I'm sure Bibi is shocked. He just won't do much about it.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Pretty sure the government response was limited to arresting and charging the perpetrator of the act of terror - not declaring war on anyone - which is how it should be.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)But TY for the attempted smoke and mirrors.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That is true pretty much for every country.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)But I believe that you understand that well enough.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)How come when I made a comparison to the USA, you chided me - but then you turn around and do so.
In any case, an Israeli who commits a terrorist act against a Palestinian is treated differently by Israel than a Palestinian who commits a terrorist act against an Israeli. I certainly wouldn't argue with that.
In this case, I think Israel is responding appropriately thus far. Do you disagree?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I also pointed out your disingenuous BS... but you know that.
WRT what Israel says it has to be matched by actions. That remains to bee seen.
...and I am very doubtful of the colonisic apartheid state that it really gives a shit.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)His coddling of the Jewish Taliban settlers has given rise to this. He's in bed with the price tag crowd and has them in his government.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)standard. That standard is that Jewish people are treated better than Christians and Muslims.
Given that Jews enjoy more rights, more access to opportunity, and are guaranteed citizenship in Israel no matter their country of origin, why is it any surprise that many Israelis internalize the idea that non-Jewish lives do not matter?
The IDF routinely commits war crime against Palestinian civilians. The Israeli government routinely sanctions the theft of Palestinian lands and resources.
What is terrorism is the regular treatment of Palestinians by the Israelis in Palestine and Israel.
Response to guillaumeb (Reply #46)
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oberliner
(58,724 posts)I do not feel like you have any understanding of how and why Israel was founded.
The regular treatment of Palestinians by the Israelis is not terrorism.
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