Palestinian girl whom Merkel caused to cry wants to abolish Israel

[grossproffit]

Palestinian girl living in north-east Germany, who garnered world media attention because Chancellor Angela Merkel made her cry, called for the destruction of the Jewish State on Sunday.

In an interview with the Die Welt am Sonntag paper, Reem said, “My hope is that at some time [Israel] is no longer there, rather only Palestine.” Her answer was in a response to the reporter’s question: What is Palestine?

Reem said that “the land should no longer be called Israel, rather Palestine.”

The reporter said the interview became difficult and asked Reem, “ Do you know in Germany that Israel and Germany have a special history? That we stand up for the country, that we do not allow Jew-hatred?”

Reem answered, “Yes, there is freedom of speech. Here I am allowed to say that. I am prepared to discuss everything.“

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Palestinian-girl-whom-Merkel-caused-to-cry-wants-to-abolish-Israel-410383?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=socialnetwork

[shenmue]

1. Oh boy

[BillZBubb]

2. Given how Israel has treated Palestinians for decades

is this really a surprise?

[oberliner]

4. Not at all a surprise

Many Palestinian children are taught that Israel should be removed and replaced with Palestine.

I would say the majority of them are.

A lot of Israeli children are taught similarly hateful things about Palestinians.

[aranthus]

14. Why was this the Palestinian position before the Israelis did any of that?

Of course six decades of war is going to increase enmity, but it was Palestinian rejectionism of a Jewish state that started the war in the first place. That hasn't changed.

[grossproffit]

19. Funny how this fact escapes some.

Their rejection of Israel started this all. And here we are, 6 decades later and they still reject Israel's right to exist.

[Alfalfa]

49. No.....

The creation of an Israeli state on land that was already inhabited by other people is what started all this. They had every right to reject it. Why should they accept the creation of a foreign state on their land?

That is some first class victim-blaming.

[grossproffit]

52. Welcome to the forum! Enjoy your stay.

[leftynyc]

20. Shhhhh

You're not supposed to talk about that. On this board Israel is 100% responsible for EVERY problem the Palestinians have and it has been that way FOREVER.

[Alfalfa]

46. Hardly

I can't blame the victim for fighting their oppressor.

[geek tragedy]

3. Gee, and here I thought Palestinian exiles and refugees would be talking

about how great Israel was for uprooting their families and communities and brutalizing and bullying the Palestinians who remained.

Most Jewish Israelis oppose anything resembling an actual Palestinian state (they say they favor a two-state solution, but oppose giving the Palestinians the rights associated with sovereignty) so this cuts both ways.

[oberliner]

5. Many speak of living in peace with Israel

Two states living side by side at peace with one another is a goal to which many Palestinians and Israelis aspire.

Not enough, sadly.

[geek tragedy]

6. "Two states living side by side at peace with one another"

sure, the Palestinians would take that deal.

Israelis want something called Palestinian state for PR purposes, but they reject anything resembling an actual Palestinian state.

They prefer the status quo to a two-state solution.

[oberliner]

7. Some Israelis want that

Other Israelis support an actual Palestinian state.

[geek tragedy]

8. barely 1/3 of israelis want an actual Palestinian state.

Two additional reservations also arise from the latest Haaretz survey. The first is that the Israeli public is seemingly unfamiliar with the geopolitical situation. When the implications of partition and the specifics of an agreement were presented to the respondents – “The establishment of a Palestinian state within the 1967 boundaries with border modifications, most of the settlements to be annexed to Israel, Jerusalem to be divided and no return of refugees” – support for the two-state solution plummeted to 35 percent, with 58 percent replying in the negative. This time, the term “prime minister” was omitted as the individual who backs the agreement. The implication of this is that great responsibility falls on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, as large segments of the public view his acceptance of an agreement involving partition as a precondition for their support.

The second, equally important, reservation is that the same public that says it will support a partition agreement if it’s supported by the prime minister doesn’t actually believe the prime minister’s stated intention to arrive at any such agreement. Thus, 54 percent replied in the negative and only 37 percent in the affirmative to the question, “Do you believe Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu when he says he wants to promote a peace agreement with two states for two nations?”

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-peace-conference/1.601996

Israeli support for a two-state solution is almost purely illusory. It's something they've trained themselves to support nominally in order to get the Americans and Europeans off their backs.

[geek tragedy]

11. no guarantees are possible, either the israelis learn to live without guarantees

or they can start learning to speak Arabic when the one-state solution becomes the only viable option, if it's not already too late

[geek tragedy]

13. When the Israelis stop expanding the settlements, whose very purpose is to prevent

a Palestinian state from becoming possible, then I'll be interested in discussing what the people the Israelis occupy and control can do to make themselves more palatable to their occupiers.

One might as well ask what the Israelites could have done to give Pharoah less concern.

You seem fairly comfortable with apartheid, since you don't see the merits in giving the Palestinians their own state (two state solution) nor giving them the right to participate in Israeli elections (one state solution).

Why you think the US should support an apartheid state in the 21st century is mystifying.

[6chars]

15. unbelievable

so you don't want to say suicide bombing should stop, for example. you are much more concerned with building an apartment than with taking of life? ok.

i would like to see two states side by side with security and peace and ideally economic cooperation. i think israel should stop building new settlements. realistically, any israeli government would fall if it tried to force 500,000 israelis out of their homes, so i think a peace agreement will have to involve the land swap formula that has been proposed by numerous parties. to me, the biggest block is that the palestinian state would be both extremist and unstable.

what do you think a palestinian state would be like if started today, with full military sovereignty? i know, you won't answer that until they get a state.

[geek tragedy]

16. of course suicide bombing should stop. settle down.

a demilitarized Palestinian state would be acceptable to the Palestinians, so long as it was an actual state.

They don't have any use for a military anyways, since they would have no ability to fight against the IDF anyways.

Israeli settlements are so pervasive within the West Bank, so marbled into the areas where Palestinians live, that a contiguous Palestinian state is physically impossible at this point.

It will require not only an immediate halt to settlement expansion, but forcibly removing thousands upon thousands of fanatical, armed Israeli settlers. Who's going to do that?

But, forget that, Israel isn't even willing to pause in its settlement expansions.

Their PM bragged about building settlements to stop a Palestinian state, and won a crushing majority in re-election.

The Israeli cabinet is littered with neofascists.

None of this is going to change anytime in the near future. The Israelis see the Palestinians as animals to be caged, not human beings with rights.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

53. The majority of the Israeli electorate voted for

right wing assholes that will continue apartheid and Jim Crow.

Peace? Doubtful.

[bemildred]

9. I imagine you can find some native Americans who would like to abolish the USA.

Seems perfectly understandable, whether you agree with it or not.

[aranthus]

17. No doubt some.

But not the majority, and not as an foundational element of their national movement. This Palestinian child is in the majority and she is a product of what her culture, religion and government teach her. The comparison to Native Americans simply doesn't wash.

[geek tragedy]

18. Is Naftali Bennett "a product of what his culture, religion and government teach him?" nt

[aranthus]

21. Is Zionism built on denying the national existence of Palestinians,

the way that Palestinianism is built on denying the national existence of the Jewish people? No.

[geek tragedy]

22. "Palestinianism?" You have a rather odd and borderline racist view of Palestinians. nt

[aranthus]

23. Nonsense.

Nothing racist about it. We're talking about two national movements, not races.

[geek tragedy]

24. You're denying that Palestinians are an actual nationality, instead

disparaging them as merely anti-Jewish and anti-Israeli rejectionists. You claimed that Palestinian national identity is based solely on anti-Semitism.

Is Zionism built on denying the national existence of Palestinians,
the way that Palestinianism is built on denying the national existence of the Jewish people? No.

What you wrote is per se bigotry, claiming your side legitimate but disparaging Palestinians as not having their own identity but rather merely being anti-Jewish. In your view, the Palestinians aren't a legitimate nationality, just a group of anti-Semites.

You're also making disparaging comments about "their culture and their religion" in order to explain mundane nationalism that Israelis perpetuate as much as anyone else.

You talk exactly like a member of Naftali Bennett's party would talk.

And no, that is not a compliment.

[aranthus]

26. No, I'm not.

I'm pointing out that one of the elements on which that identity is based is the denial of Jewish national existence. The Palestine National Charter expressly denies Jewish peoplehood. It is a common belief among Palestinians that Jewishness is merely a religion and not a peoplehood. That's not racism. It's fact.

[geek tragedy]

29. Palestinians are Arabs who are from Palestine. Just like Egyptians are Arabs

who are from Egypt.

They are not a derivative people defined in relation to Jews. They are from Palestine. that's what they are.

Palestinian identity does not depend on denying anything about Jews.

Where do you get such ignorant ideas?

[aranthus]

33. Are you Palestinian?

Have you read the Palestinian National Charter? Have you listened to their political and religious leaders?

[geek tragedy]

35. You realize people were living in Palestine for thousands of years

before 1968, right?

[aranthus]

37. Sure.

There were the Jews for several thousand years. And there have been Arabs living there for about 1400 years. But that doesn't make them a separate people. Peoplehood is a set of shared ideas. Point of origin is important, but it isn't enough to define a nation.

[Alfalfa]

47. It's not really a valid comparison

The Palestinian People are already on their own land, whereas the Zionists are not.

[aranthus]

56. Just so we're clear.

Your position is that the Jews have no rights to a state in any part of the land, and that it all belongs to the Palestinians?

[Alfalfa]

57. Unless the Palestinians agree to it, then no, no they don't

Their holy book doesn't give them the right, that's not how we do things in this day and age.

[bemildred]

25. You really think you can speak for Native Americans? nt

[aranthus]

27. Can you?

But as a rational observer, I know that there was a Native American identity that existed before there was an America; before the Europeans came. I can note that Native Americans don't deny that there is an American nation, even if they don't consider themselves a part of it.

[bemildred]

28. I see you do. nt

[aranthus]

30. I can't account for what you see.

But are you claiming that most Native Americans want to abolish the United States? Where's your evidence for that? You said some do, and I agree with that, but a majority? As part of their national identity? Prove it.

[geek tragedy]

31. How many Palestinians have you spoken with regarding their national identity

and its origins?

Or do you just get your ideas from Kach publications?

[aranthus]

32. Probably a half dozen.

Many more that I have heard from. You realize that the Palestinian National Charter expressly denies Jewish peoplehood, right?

[geek tragedy]

34. Maybe this will blow your mind, but Palestinians existed before 1968.

The PLO didn't create Palestinians. It's one group of Palestinians.

It is amazing that this needs to be explained to someone who is nominally an adult, capable of dressing themselves and eating with a fork.

[aranthus]

36. It's telling that you're reduced to insults when you don't understand issues and don't have answers.

but let's try and keep the discussion on a serious level. We're not talking about simple residency. Of course there were people living in the land before 1968. But that doesn't create a Palestinian people. Residency isn't the same as nationhood. There are lots of people who live in Wisconsin, but that doesn't mean that there is a Wisconsin people. If all Palestinians were is the people who live in Palestine (there's more to them than that), then they wouldn't be a people either. Nor would the Jews. The issue is what those people believe. What are their founding myths (all nations have them). How do they identify themselves.

Oh and by the way. The PLO was created in 1964, not 1968.

And it's not one group of Palestinians at all.

The first Palestinians were the Philistines (Peleset), who were Greek related raiders from the sea. They settled in the area around present day Gaza. At the same time, there were Canaanite tribes living in the central and north of the land (which was then called Canaan, not Palestine). Those Canaanite tribes included the Hebrews, who are the ancestors of modern Jews. The Hebrews created a country they called Israel. When the Greeks of Syria conquered the territory, they named it Palestina as a province of Syria. when the Jews conquered it back the name reverted to Israel. When the Romans conquered the land just before the birth of Christ they decided to call it something besides Israel to destroy the indigenous connection to the land. So they called it Palestina after the Greek Syrian province, and the name eventually became Palestine. The majority of the people living in the place were still a mix of surviving Jews and Romans. As late as 1948, the word Palestinian referred to the Jews of Palestine. Of course, the Arabs conquered the place about 1400 years ago, and Arabs who live there now are primarily the descendants of those Arab conquerors (intermixed with locals). It wasn't until after the creation of Israel that the Arabs started to call themselves Palestinians.

The point is that there isn't one group of Palestinians. There is an Arab people that today calls itself Palestinian, but the name has been applied to several other nations in the last 2000 years, including the Jews. Also, that there has never been an indigenous state in the region called Palestine. It's always been either a conquered country, as under the original Philistines, or else the conquered province of some other country.

[grossproffit]

38. It's refreshing to see such a well thought out and factual post.

I wish I could recommend this post a million times, but even then, it wouldn't be enough.

[geek tragedy]

41. So you agree with that poster that Palestinians aren't a real group of people

but rather merely a splinter group of Arabs whose defining trait is anti-Jewish prejudice?

You do realize that Kahanism is not favored here, right?

[grossproffit]

42. I have no idea what Kahanism is but I do know the history of the region.

[geek tragedy]

43. If you don't know what Kahanism is you don't know the history of the area

not the modern history anyways.

That poster is arguing that Palestinians are defined by vicious anti-Semitism--that one can't be Palestinian without being anti-Semitic because that's part of the definition of a Palestinian. That the only reason the Palestinians exist as a group of people is that they're united in prejudice against Jews.

Do you agree with that?

[aranthus]

45. How could he when I never said that.

Let's assume that they are just a splinter group of Arabs, which is also something that I have not said, but let's assume that for a minute. Then so are the Lebanese, the Egyptians, the Omanis and so forth. No one I know challenges their national legitimacy. So even if I was saying that the Palestinians were only a splinter group of Arabs, so what? Of course they are a real people. Now I have said that Palestinian national identity is a relatively recent phenomenon, but, again, so what? Nations are created and lost all the time. Just because they are new doesn't make them illegitimate. Nor have I said that the defining trait (whatever that means) of the Palestinians is antisemitism. It is, however, a part of current Palestinian ideology. And none of this is Kahanism.

[geek tragedy]

40. More Kahanist revisionist history.

It wasn't until after the creation of Israel that the Arabs started to call themselves Palestinians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian%E2%80%93Palestinian_Congress

There is a Palestinian dialect of Arabic.

There were non-Jewish Arabs living in this area for 1400 years before Israel was created.

Leaving that aside, you still haven't justified your thoroughly racist/ethnic supremacist claim that Palestinians can only define themselves via anti-Semitism. Your argument is that Palestinians are just a splinter group whose entire national identity is based on anti-Jewish prejudice.

That is racist horseshit, racist horseshit to be expected of the apologists for the racist scumbags currently governing Israel.

[Alfalfa]

48. It doesn't matter how the Palestinian People identify themselves

And it's very snake-like to attempt to deny them statehood based on that, quite frankly. There are many countries today which never existed in the past, and the people were conquered by others. However, nobody would deny them the right to their land or their right to independence. No reason why the Palestinian People should be an exception. The fact is, there were people living in the land that is now called Israel, and what was done to them was illegal and immoral. What they called themselves, or how they identified, then or now, is irrelevant. People have a right to identify how they choose.

[bemildred]

50. Welcome to DU. nt

[Alfalfa]

51. Thanks

[Little Tich]

39. Unfortunately, I have no opinion.

I couldn't find the original article from Die Welt.

[Little Tich]

44. I found the original article from Die Welt.

Source: Die Welt, 26.07.15
(Under heading ""Meine Heimat ist Palästina", snip)

Aber was heißt eigentlich Palästina? Von welchem Gebiet spricht sie? "Alles", sagt Reem. Aber da ist Israel. "Ja, noch, aber meine Hoffnung ist, dass es irgendwann nicht mehr da ist, sondern nur noch Palästina." Wie soll das gehen? "Das Land sollte nicht mehr Israel heißen, sondern Palästina."

Das Gespräch wird jetzt schwierig. Reem, das sympathische, kluge Mädchen, das so gerne in Deutschland leben möchte, sagt Dinge, die so nicht stehen bleiben können. Weißt du, dass Deutschland und Israel eine besondere Geschichte haben? Dass wir zu dem Land stehen, dass wir Judenhass nicht zulassen? "Ja, aber es gibt Meinungsfreiheit, hier darf ich das sagen", sagt sie. "Ich bin bereit, über alles zu diskutieren."
(end snip)
Read more: http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article144462557/So-sieht-das-beruehmte-Fluechtlingsmaedchen-die-Welt.html

Google translate:

But what is actually called Palestine? From what field she speaks? "Everything," said Reem. But there is Israel. "Yes, still, but my hope is that it is no longer there at some point, but only Palestine." How does that work? "The country should no longer be called Israel, but Palestine."

The conversation is difficult now. Reem, the sympathetic, intelligent girl who would so much like to live in Germany says things that can not remain so. Do you know that Germany and Israel have a special story? That we are to the country that we do not permit hate Jews? "Yes, but there is freedom of expression, here I must say that," she says. "I am willing to discuss everything."

The girl is 14 years old, and I think she's just regurgitating what her parents taught her. Just wishing for Israel to disappear isn't feasible, it's like she's clinging on to some cargo cult. Besides, the logical conclusion is that somehow, all Jewish Israelis should just GTFO.

I hope she grows up and grows out of her anti-Semitic ideas.

[GitRDun]

54. The sad tragedy of Israel / Palestine is in the story and this thread

Throughout my stay here on DU, I see constant reminders of why the politicians continually fail to make peace.

After all this time, it really doesn't matter who started this conflict.

All that really matters is that until the two sides decide peace is more important than who is right, more will die.

The US, as Israel's constant enabler is also to blame. There are plenty here (myself included) who are appalled by Israel's militaristic approach to solving its problems with the Palestinians. Israel's approach mirrors our own.

I don't see peace there in my lifetime. Why would there be? Even a discussion board full of progressives like DU fills I/P threads with the same invective dogma we see in both the region and the rest of the world.

Our collective inhumanity is toxic enough to infect even an innocent little girl. A pox on all our houses.

[aranthus]

55. Unfortunately, peace is never about wanting peace.

It's about what each side wants more that it wants peace.

[GitRDun]

58. Not true

See South Africa post apartheid.

Peace is ONLY ABOUT WANTING PEACE.

[grossproffit]

59. i agree with you.