Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumPA principal rapped for Jaffa beach party
A Palestinian principal was punished over a spontaneous beach party that emerged during a field trip in Israel. The school head lost his job, and was reassigned to a different West Bank school.
Mohammad Abu Samra, 33, says he landed in hot water when video and images of his pupils dancing on a beach in Jaffa with bikini-clad women and Israeli beachgoers were sent to the Palestinian Ministry of Education.
...
“Volunteers shot a video and took a couple of still photos and forwarded them to the Palestinian Ministry of Education, with a complaint that the incident would imply that there was normalization of ties with Israel and it exposed the young generation of Palestinians to Israel’s illicit code of conduct,” he added.
Abu Samra was reassigned to a school about 30 miles away. Students reportedly have protested the education ministry’s actions.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinian-principal-in-hot-water-over-israeli-beach-party/
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)with any "Christian" school principal in the US whose kids had too much fun in public.
More IDF attacks in Gaza won't stop things like that.
shira
(30,109 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)And it would certainly happen if a school principal in the U.S. took the kids of his school to Cuba and let them dance on the beach with the locals there.
And really, all that has happened was that this guy got chewed out(as evidenced by the fact that he was alive and uninjured when interviewed). Unless they had beheaded the principal or something, this just isn't that much of a story...it looks like something you posted just to sustain your "their leaders are horrible, so the status quo must be maintained" meme.
Even if it wasn't going to be government officials in the U.S. doing this, there are a lot of countries, of varying religions and ideologies, where this could have happened.
I do obviously disagree with the reaction of the education officials, of course. Kids should be free to have fun.
King_David
(14,851 posts)''complaint that the incident would imply that there was normalization of ties with Israel ''
Can not be mixing with Jews, that is the problem.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)It isn't about antisemitism. It's just about bureaucrats being uptight.
And as to "mixing"...I don't recall YOU ever complaining about the IDF not allowing Palestinian kids to go to the beaches(most of which are in Israel).
The kids should have been able to go to the beach in either instance. I'm just saying that there's no real story here, and nothing in this justifies continuing the Israeli hard line towards Gaza and the West Bank, since that hard line cannot cause things like this to stop happening.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Link please.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Last edited Sun Jun 3, 2012, 09:18 PM - Edit history (1)
I don't agree with what the PA education authorities did on this, but enough with the demagogy.
The Palestinians are in a war against Israel. In wartime situations, every country has laws about "fraternizing with the enemy"
and yes, those laws usually lead to absurd results like this).
The issue was that the Israelis on that beach were nationals of the enemy the Palestinians had in the conflict...not that they may have self-identified as Jews. The PA would have made the same(unjust and excessive)ruling if Baptists from Texas were running Israel. You can't automatically turn everything in this into "they hate the Jews, they hate the Jews". There's some of that(and an equal amount of Arab/Palestinian hatred on the Israeli side, which is equally wrong). But it wasn't about antisemitism and, with all due respect, you mock the sufferings of the actual victims of antisemitism(the kind that created a nearly Judenrein Europe by 1945)by implying that everybody in Israel who ever gets in a confrontation with a Palestinian of any sort is ALWAYS a victim of antisemitism. Just as a cigar is sometimes just a cigar, so too is an enemy(in the eyes of the leadership in a war)sometimes just an enemy.
And what happened to that principal is NOT a justification for anything of the hardline measures in Israeli security policy, OR the expansion of the settlements(all of which are recognized by the world as being illegal under the 4th Geneva Convention)or making Palestinian grandmothers with chest pains die at the checkpoint "just to be on the safe side".
And this is why I have a problem with the posting of this article...yes, it's a bad thing that this happened...no it doesn't prove that the PA is more evil than any other government on the planet. And no, it doesn't justify preserving the status quo in the West Bank. OK?
King_David
(14,851 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)on person-to-person contacts between Israelis and Palestinians. Whether they were formal statutes doesn't matter.
You can ask anybody in any of the NGO's that Bibi has been trying to drive out of existence...and you can ask Ezra Nawi, who was put through hell just for trying to stop the unjustified destruction of an innocent Bedouin village(even though his actions didn't threaten Israeli security in the slightest).
There are the restrictions on Israelis marrying Palestinians, as well.
You know about all of that as well as I do.
King_David
(14,851 posts)on person-to-person contacts between Israelis and Palestinians.
Links please.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)Last edited Mon Jun 4, 2012, 09:20 AM - Edit history (4)
There have been MANY restrictions imposed by the Israeli government on person-to-person contacts between Israelis and Palestiniansonce upon a time there were restrictions upon meeting PLO members....but that period is long gone and today as far as i know, there are no restrictions at all.....
heres the problem you have ken....
you first have the solution (otherwise known as having an ideology, being in a cult or religious) and everything must fit that solution, if it doesn't you either have to ignore it, or make up facts to protect your ideology, its nothing new in this world, but it does stand out. (here being religious has an advantage as the believers all look up and say "we can't always understand why she is doing what she is doing...)
hence your comment in an attempt for "moral equivalency is a joke, the PA and Palestinians has a bigoted stance toward israelis (justified or not) very much unlike the israeli stance. The two cultures are different, one is a liberal democracy the other is a dictatorship with limited freedoms of their own doing....they are in fact not equal...a liberal democracy is a better governing style than a dictatorship, it is a more moral way to govern, and by trying to equal the two as "one and the same' you are being a traitor to your claimed values of justice.....
this is an example of the the bigotry that resembles the white colonialist of past, hidden behind a "progressive" ideology but bigoted and intolerant never the less in your absolute refusal to accept the different cultures that have different values ("ones western progressive" beliefs does not mean one gets an "out of racist ideology card" ( see Woodrow Wilson as per one example)
cali
(114,904 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)It's just a principal getting in trouble with his superiors. This isn't something that ONLY happens in Palestine.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)This story ISN'T about the IDF -- so when you say "More IDF attacks in Gaza won't stop things like that." you're engaging in non-sequiters. No one claimed that IDF fights with Palestinian forces so that Gazan teenagers are allowed to dance on the beach, except you.
No, the relevance of this story lies in that fact that it illustrates precisely the attitude of Palestinian authorities to Israelis. According to a Gulf News article on the same subject.
"Although the picnic was licensed by the ministry, mixing with Israelis on the beach should not have been allowed, the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity"
So, the principal isn't in trouble with the PA for allowing his children to dance -- he's being reprimanded for allowing them to dance with Jews. The Israeli beachgoers who saw a bunch of nice Palestinian kids and decided to hold an impromptu peace party with them have landed the poor man into the soup for allowing "mixing".
The PA have their own Jim Crow laws and they zealously enforce them.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)to illustrate the myth that, in ANY encounter between Israelis and Palestinians, it's the Israelis who are the main victims, are at the greater risk, and thus always justified in anything they do in response.
The PA was wrong to chew out the principal(and really, that's ALL that happened here, a bureaucrat chewing out another bureaucrat...something that happens all over the world)but it does NOT prove that the PA is a regime of particular evil. It's just another bad regime, and it's enough to think of it as that. The creation of a Palestinian state, especially if accompanied by the removal of all West Bank settlements and not only compensation but acknowledgment to the refugees and descendants of refugees that they did not deserve collective transfer from their homes, would very likely wipe the existing Palestinian leadership off the political map, since it would end the siege mentality that the Occupation has created among Palestinians(especially if the Israeli side were also to agree never to do anything to try to shut down the Palestinian economy)and give them something positive to live for.
People pretty much always behave better when they aren't repressed and living at another country's mercy than when they are.
By contrast, it's damn near impossible to use collective repression to MAKE a collectively repressed people behave better.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)You're going to blame a "no mixing with Jews" policy collective repression?
Or are you being ironic? I can't tell.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)I'm just pointing out that, while it's wrong, it's no different than any other "no fraternizing with the enemy" rule. It's not automatically worse just because the enemy in question self-identifies as Jewish. That self-identification doesn't make it bigotry. It's just "no fraternization with the enemy", and that's all it is. It's wrong, but it's not in an entirely different category than such a rule when imposed by any other leadership towards those it describes as "the enemy".
It's time to stop crying "antisemitism" about EVERYTHING the Palestinian side does. To do that is to belittle the actual suffering of the historic victims of Antisemitism...those who suffered from in in Europe, at the hands of Europeans.
Nothing Palestinians or any other Arabs do or could do compares with the Inquisition, the establishment of the ghettos, the Blood Libel, the pogroms OR the Holocaust. And it's time to stop trying acting as if the Palestinians or the other Arabs are the "New Nazis". Their motivations and their actions are entirely separate from what drove 2000 years of European Christian persecution of the Jews. And it needs to be treated differently.
Palestinians shouldn't demonize Israel...at the same time, Israel and its supporters shouldn't demonize Palestine. It goes both ways.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... to put a stop to ALL illustrative articles in this group.
You said...
"Palestinians shouldn't demonize Israel...at the same time, Israel and its supporters shouldn't demonize Palestine. It goes both ways. "
When you should have said
Palestinians and their supporters shouldn't demonize Israel...at the same time, Israel and its supporters shouldn't demonize Palestine. It goes both ways.
If you come out against illustrative OPs showing Palestinians in a bad light then you have to equally come out against OPs showing Israelis in a bad light -- to quote a wise man, "It goes both ways".
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Point taken. But most of the threads that are negative towards Israel aren't actually "demonization"...they're just critical.
This thread wasn't just about showing Palestine in a bad light...it was(implicitly)about justifying Israeli paranoia towards Palestine and Palestinians. That's very different than most of the threads that are critical of various aspects of Israeli security policy.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)Perspective being the deciding factor.
This particular OP isn't demonization as far as I can tell -- not a single poster has indicated Palestinians have either horn or tails.
What it does do is illustrate that the PA has an official policy against children on school trips "mixing" with Israeli. I'm going out on an assumption here and guess that the policy against mixing doesn't apply to Muslims Israeli.
That isn't demoniztion, it is -- as you pointed out early -- merely a policy that prevents "fraternization with the enemy".
The reason the OP is relevant is because it illustrates an official PA policy that is an impediment to peace. If Palestinians (of any age) are officially not allowed to mix socially with Israelis then this is a definitely an impediment to peace. This isn't a punch-up between to bureaucrats as you stated earlier, it is an official policy -- the man in question was officially chastised and transferred to another school. Not a difference of opinion -- an official act of government.
Now, if you want to object to the OP on the grounds that it isn't relevant because the Israeli government also has policies that are an impediment to peace then fine -- make that point. But, if that is your argument, then it negates any posting of a news article that shows either Israelis or Palestinians (or their governmental bodies) in a bad light and that constitutes 99% of every article linked in this group. Things are going to get VERY boring around here if you succeed in putting an end to the -- "but they do it too" escalations.
Those escalations are never constructive or particularly enlightening -- but they are fun.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Last edited Mon Jun 4, 2012, 05:28 AM - Edit history (1)
that ISRAELIS have horns or a tail.
(at least as far as I know...and we can assume that anyone who showed up here and claimed such a thing would immediately be tombstoned, with those whp are critical of Israeli policies joining in on the demands for 'stoning as loudly as anybody else).
And most have made a clear distinction between the Israeli government and the Israeli people themselves.
I do agree that the policy of the PA on this is wrong and that the principal didn't deserve to be treated as he was.
But it's wrong because "fraternizing with the enemy" policies are wrong...it's not EXTRA wrong because the enemy, in this case, self-identifies as Jewish. It would be the same degree of wrong if the enemy Palestinians were fraternizing with were Texas Baptists or Orthodox Christians from Serbia. What I object to is the implication that it's automatically worse because the enemy, in this case, claims to be "Jewish". Claiming that it is is part of the long-standing meme that EVERYTHING the Palestinian leadership does(and, by extension, every act of resistance, even nonviolent resistance, that any Palestinian carries out)is automatically "antisemitic".
Antisemitism is real. It exists all over the world, and must be fought all over the world, as must all forms of prejudice and hate(all of which are equally wrong). But its demagogic for the Israeli government or "pro-Israel" people to invoke
antisemitism to explain everything the Palestinians or any other Arabs do...because all that invocation does, in this context, is to make the argument that the Palestinians, and all other Arabs, are not just wrong but inherently evil, and that, therefore, they cannot be dealt with on any other level than brute force and peace-through-victory(the latter of which is impossible for ANY side in this particular conflict).
It's time to stop tossing that word and that accusation around QUITE so loosely.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)A policy of "no mixing with Jews" is -- by definition -- anti-semitic, but, that doesn't make it any worse than a policy against "mixing with Lithuanians" and I didn't hear anyone on this chain or other chains claim that it is. Insinuating that people here are claiming that anti-semitism is more heinous that other forms of prejudice are disingenuous and patently false. However, for the purposes of this discussion (the IP Conflict) there is a difference between anti-semitism and other forms of prejudice (say anti-Lithuanianism) because no one involved the IP conflict has threatened destroy the Lithuanian state (that I'm aware of, please feel free to correct me).
Pointing out that the PA has an anti-semitic policy isn't tossing out an accusation, making an invocation or demonizing a people, it is highlighting a concrete example of actual anti-semitism that exists in institutional form. It germane to the discussion because it illustrates a policy that in and by itself is an impediment to the peace process. Pointing that out doesn't cheapen or trivialize other forms of current or historical anti-semitism.
Israel self-identifies (your words) as a Jewish country because the vast majority of its citizens are in fact Jewish. It was created as a homeland for the Jews and it's raison d'etre is to provide a haven for Jews around the world. None of these facts are in dispute as far as I can tell. It IS a Jewish State even if you choose not to accept that it is.
What DOES cheapen the history of anti-semitism is to make the blanket accusation that pointing to anti-semitism where it actually exists is a tactic, a ploy or is done cynically for reasons other than the intent of merely pointing it out.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)There is HOPE for the young generation in Gaza.
B"H
shira
(30,109 posts)holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)The kids from Gaza have their own beach bunnies to ogle.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)that somebody do a movie called "Beach Blanket Nakba".
That would just be too much weirdness.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)Harvey Weinstein will produce
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)and EVERY Palestinian man is an ultrareligious whackjob that MAKES her wear one.
No, no racism in your choice of picture there at all. Not a bit.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Hamas patrols beaches in Gaza to enforce conservative dress code
A mounted Hamas officer rides along the beach at Gaza City, on the lookout for infringements of Islamic dress codes.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/18/hamas-gaza-islamist-dress-code
Seaside in Gaza: the dress code's almost as dangerous as the surf
With strict dress codes enforced by Hamas, the Islamist movement that controls Gaza, bathing is a treacherous pursuit for women who must swim virtually fully clothed in the traditional abaya - a coat that covers the body from head to toe.
"Women get into all sorts of trouble because suddenly their clothes are so heavy when they get wet. Because most don't know how to swim, things get very difficult very quickly."
He denied that four years of Hamas rule had influenced the littoral dresscode. "I think women dress the way they always have. They understand what is appropriate and what is not.''
So if a woman wanted to strip down? "In that case I would physically stop her from getting on to the beach," Abu Mutair said, blanching at the thought of a bikini.
http://www.theage.com.au/world/seaside-in-gaza-the-dress-codes-almost-as-dangerous-as-the-surf-20100730-10zu5.html#ixzz1wp9OKcqk
King_David
(14,851 posts)The pic depicts Gaza beach as it is.
Can you pick a more realistic pic?
http://www.google.ca/search?q=gaza+beach&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-ca:IE-Address&rlz=1I7ACAW_enCA403CA403&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=X6DMT6SLM4rJ0QH9y-SQAQ&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CEIQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=934
Your post and accusation is off base.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... you shout RACISM.
LeftishBrit
(41,212 posts)Glad to hear that some of the students have protested the ministry's actions.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)as are all "fraternizing with the enemy" policies. WHOEVER implements them.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Links please.
