Israel has many injustices. But it is not an apartheid state

[oberliner]

Excerpt:

The charge is not new. Two Israeli former PMs have warned that if the country continues on its current path, it will become the successor to apartheid South Africa. Some campaigners claim that point has already arrived – that Israel is a racist, pitiless oppressor of Palestinians, killing them en masse whenever it wants to, that it is an apartheid state.

There are few charges more grave. I should know: during 26 years as a journalist in South Africa I investigated and reported the evil that was apartheid. I saw Nelson Mandela secretly when he was underground, then popularly known as the Black Pimpernel, and I was the first non-family member to visit him in prison.

I have now lived in Israel for 17 years, doing what I can to promote dialogue across lines of division. To an extent that I believe is rare, I straddle both societies. I know Israel today – and I knew apartheid up close. And put simply, there is no comparison between Israel and apartheid.

The Arabs of Israel are full citizens. Crucially, they have the vote and Israeli Arab MPs sit in parliament. An Arab judge sits on the country’s highest court; an Arab is chief surgeon at a leading hospital; an Arab commands a brigade of the Israeli army; others head university departments. Arab and Jewish babies are born in the same delivery rooms, attended by the same doctors and nurses, and mothers recover in adjoining beds. Jews and Arabs travel on the same trains, taxis and – yes – buses. Universities, theatres, cinemas, beaches and restaurants are open to all.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/22/israel-injustices-not-apartheid-state

[Nitram]

1. Not yet, but if the trend continues it will be.

Israel came very close to sealing the deal with their bus fiasco.

[hack89]

2. The bus fiasco did not apply to Arab Israelis. Nt

[procon]

3. This is his own narrow, personal definition of apartheid.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world uses Article 2 of the 1973 Convention on Apartheid that define it as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them." Check.

Rather than get bogged by a yet another label, let's discuss equality and fairness and ask if Israel treats all the minority groups it controls through its various governmental, financial and military policies, impartially.

[oberliner]

9. Which racial group is maintaining domination?

If you go by that definition then there is no basis for any such claim since there are no such acts being committed to establish domination by one racial group over another.

Israel is much better with respect to minority groups than most countries in the region as well as much of the world.

[Nitram]

45. Pure sophistry, Oberliner

The meaning of apartheid is not confined to racial separation.

[oberliner]

47. The definition provided above was confined to racial separation

In case you didn't see it:

Meanwhile, the rest of the world uses Article 2 of the 1973 Convention on Apartheid that define it as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them.

The poster to whom I was responding claimed that the world uses that definition.

[Nitram]

50. The confusion resides in the definition of "racial"

According to the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

The crime of Apartheid is defined by the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_of_apartheid

[oberliner]

52. OK

But by no definition would it apply to anything going on in Israel.

There is definitely discrimination in Israel, however, like there is in every country, unfortunately.

[Nitram]

53. Israel's practices can be grouped into three "pillars" of apartheid...

... comparable to practices in South Africa:

The first pillar "derives from Israeli laws and policies that establish Jewish identity for purposes of law and afford a preferential legal status and material benefits to Jews over non-Jews".

The second pillar is reflected in "Israel's 'grand' policy to fragment the OPT [and] ensure that Palestinians remain confined to the reserves designated for them while Israeli Jews are prohibited from entering those reserves but enjoy freedom of movement throughout the rest of the Palestinian territory. This policy is evidenced by Israel's extensive appropriation of Palestinian land, which continues to shrink the territorial space available to Palestinians; the hermetic closure and isolation of the Gaza Strip from the rest of the OPT; the deliberate severing of East Jerusalem from the rest of the West Bank; and the appropriation and construction policies serving to carve up the West Bank into an intricate and well-serviced network of connected settlements for Jewish-Israelis and an archipelago of besieged and non-contiguous enclaves for Palestinians".

The third pillar is "Israel's invocation of 'security' to validate sweeping restrictions on Palestinian freedom of opinion, expression, assembly, association and movement [to] mask a true underlying intent to suppress dissent to its system of domination and thereby maintain control over Palestinians as a group."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy

[Mosby]

57. the OPTs are not part of Israel

Hence no apartheid.

It's really that simple.

If you are really a supporter of Palestinians you should be pressing for elections and negotiations.

[FarrenH]

69. About as compelling as

"The bantustans are not part of South Africa
Hence no Apartheid"

The SA government did not consider it's ethnic "homelands" part of the South African state. The reason that perspective was rightly scoffed at is that it used them as a dumping ground for it's displaced African population while still exercising effective control of their borders, airspace, resources and so on, despite each bantustan having a puppet government. The OTs are no different. Under the Rome Statute, they're legally equivalent. A half century occupation is not a temporary condition. It is a system with no end in sight that keeps a displaced native population of one ethnicity segregated and under the control of a government in which they have no representation for the benefit of the ethnically majoritarian aims of another ethnic group. Even the fig leaf of a minority of the oppressed group having some political say in the occupying power doesn't obviate that.

[eloydude]

13. See Lebanon treating Palestinians...

Now, that's apartheid.

And yet, it get little news here...wonder why?

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Wheres-the-international-outcry-against-Arab-apartheid

[Jefferson23]

15. Lebanon is not their homeland. How they're treated is horrible, and will never excuse nor

minimize Israeli occupation for decades.

[oberliner]

48. Yes it is

They were born there. Their parents were born there. In many cases their grandparents were born there.

[Scootaloo]

4. Israel rules Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza

It clearly considers the West bank and Jerusalem to belong to Israel.

Arabs living in these places live by very different, more restrictive laws than Jews who live there - even though the Jews living there do so illegally.

There are also a number of legal differences between Jews and non-Jews in Israel proper. Not to mention the extralegal (but government-supported) conditions.

Israel is an apartheid state. To crib from John Oliver, it's like the age of consent - if your argument is quibbling about what it is, and where you find it, you've probably already done something terrible.

[oberliner]

5. You have not a clue what you are talking about

Gaza is completely Jew-free, so I'm not sure how Gaza is relevant as their are no Jews living there. In Jerusalem all Israelis are under the same laws regardless of whether they are Jewish or not. There are differences in the treatment of Israeli citizens and non-Israeli citizens.

Presumably, you've never lived in South Africa or Israel or the West Bank or Gaza and all of your knowledge is based on internet articles and whatnot. Is that correct?

[Scootaloo]

7. I know exactly what I'm talking about

Israel rules these territories. The people living in these territories live under different rules and laws, imposed by Israel, even if they are neighbors. Palestinians in east Jerusalem live under military rule, while Jews living in East Jerusalem live under Israeli civil law. The same applies in the rest of the West Bank. Gazans live under a crushing Israeli embargo, even though Israel is legally responsible for their well-being as the occupying power.

And I think i'll trust Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu and the international definition of apartheid, before I trust you on the issue. Sorry Obie.

Again, if your argument consists of using a magnifying class and a lab needle to try to tease out the exact, micron-thin line... you're probably already well over said line.

[oberliner]

8. No you don't

There are no Jews living in Gaza. This is simply a fact.

Palestinian citizens of Israel, who are not Jewish, live under Israeli civil law in East Jerusalem - the same as Israeli citizens who are Jewish. Likewise for Israeli Druze, who also are not Jewish.

Nelson Mandela has made no statement regarding apartheid in relation to Israel. In fact, Mr. Mandela has said that he recognizes the legitimacy of the Zionist movement.

[bravenak]

10. But Israel controls the borders and maintains a blockade.

And bombs the shit out of Gaza. You know, where no Jews live? We notice what's going on and no smooth words or playing pretense is going to trick us into thinking it's not as bad as it looks. It's worse than it looks.

[oberliner]

17. That's also not true

There is a border between Gaza and Egypt. In fact, Egypt used to occupy Gaza.

[bravenak]

19. Ok. But they work with Egypt on border rules.

And they still control the ports and bomb the shit out of the jewless area. The area that you say has no Jews in it gets bombed by Israel often and many die and the infrastructure gets demolished. It's obvious apartheid.

[oberliner]

20. Most of the Arab world is basically "Jew-less"

There used to be quite a few Jews living in many of those countries, but those populations have dwindled to just about nothing in most of them (with a handful of exceptions).

Gaza used to have Israeli settlements but they were all withdrawn and so now there are no longer any Jews living there.

With respect to the bombing last year (and previous) I am not sure how you are suggesting that is related to apartheid. Palestinians in Gaza have shot rockets at Israel, sent suicide bombers into the country, etc. - does that figure into the equation at all?

[bravenak]

22. But most is not controlled by Israel.

I'm just talking about the places Israel controls. and I am suggesting that they bomb Arabs like 'mowing the lawn'. I got that from Bibi.

[oberliner]

25. I'm not sure I am getting your point in that regard

Are you saying that more Jews should be living in Gaza?

In any case, I think that it is fair to say that many Palestinians are not particularly distressed by the idea of killing Israelis and many Israelis are not particularly distressed by the idea of killing Palestinians.

I would love to live in a world where neither of those things were the case.

[bravenak]

26. I'm saying that the set up over there is apartheid.

[oberliner]

27. But in Gaza there are no Jewish people or Israelis

Everyone there is Palestinian, non-Jewish.

Doesn't an apartheid situation have to involve two different groups with one having different rules than the other?

In Gaza, there is no such system in place.

[bravenak]

28. Does not matter since the gazans do not have the power. Israel does.

There were no whites in the bantustans, yet it was still apartheid. With all the land thefts, that's basically how palestinians live. Like blacks in bantustans.

[brush]

33. You tell him, Bravenak, cut to the quick the obtuse pretense.

"There are no Jews in Gaza."

Well, duh . . . exactly. The people there are kept apart from Jewish Israelis, more convenient for "bombing the hell out of them".

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a fu_king duck.

[bravenak]

34. Exactly, thank you.

Beating around the bush gets to be sooo tiresome.

[Mosby]

59. gaza is not part of Israel

How hard is that to understand?

Shoot rockets from one country (gaza) into another for no reason except to terrorize people what can one expect? Lay down and take it? Is that what Israel should do in your opinion?

[bravenak]

60. And bantustans were not a part of South Africa.

Still apartheid. They made the same exact arguments.

[Mosby]

61. wrong, they were all in s. africa and namibia

[bravenak]

62. Separate and unequal. Just like Gaza.

[Mosby]

63. tell that to Hamas.

[bravenak]

64. No need. They seem to understand that perfectly well.

I'm sorry you have so much trouble handling the truth. I feel like you're trying to get Israel off on a technicality, but wonder why since this ain't a courtroom. Everybody know how shitty Israel treats palestinians while they 'appropriate' their land. Seems to me that even arab Israelis get the short end of the stick, along with black jews and african immigrants. So much racism, just like here. I'd probably feel right at home.

[Mosby]

65. it's not me that has a problem with the truth

Palestinians could have had a state like 7 times now, but they want Israel.

That's the truth.

[bravenak]

66. Yes yes yes. I've heard the refrain time and time again.

Don't care what they coulda had back when I was a kid or a teenager. I'm grown now and I see what it is. David vs goliath with Palestine as David. Period. Glad I'm a millenial and that my generation is not fooled by smooth words or Hasbara. Funny enough, I enrolled in College again last week and the kids there are waaaaay more pro palestine than I am. Good thing too. 90 million millenials will be able to stop sending Israel money for bombs and stop protecting them diplomatically. I think Israel forgot to forge ties with younger people. Good. Then it will be a surprise when they get cut off from our coffers and end up with sanctions.

[Mosby]

67. great, cut off aid

So what?

Palestinians are running out of time. I get that people here, like you, are obsessed with Israel, but the rest of the world is moving on to more relevant problems like climate change.

How long do you thing the west is going to keep paying the palestinians welfare?

It's now several billions of dollars per year.

Cut off all aid.

Isolationism is the new thing with millenials right?

[bravenak]

68. Ummm hmmm.

Why should we pay welfare to weathy Israel, instead of the poverty stricked bombed out palestinians? That's how millenials think. Has nothing to do with isolationism and much to do with the welfare of the disadvantaged.
See, people like me can concentrate on more than one thing at a time... Imagine that! We can oppose colonialism and care about social and economic justice while loosening the grip of the millitary industrial complex and the PIC.
And you can look down your nose at us, but, we don't care. We are not invested in Israel maintaining privilege and authority over Palestine. And I just don't see us changing as we age, just settling into our position so that when our huge generation has the power of number, we decide what to spend money on and who to help.
I love being in a generation of change.

[procon]

16. If you're down to splitting hairs, you've already lost the argument.

While there may not be any "Jews living in Gaza", they have absolute control of the region. By the same pointless rationale, we can also say that the Jewish settlements in the West Bank aren't exactly bursting with Palestinian residents either.

Israel subjugates the Palestinian people through its discriminatory policies in the military, political, financial sectors, as well as energy, travel, property rights, consumer goods, medical supplies, and on and on the list grows.

Nelson Mandela is dead, but even is he was still alive, it was not his lot in life to chastise the state of Israel for its policies of segregation and discrimination, that duty more appropriately belongs to the international community and court of public opinion.

[oberliner]

18. OK

I'm happy to focus on more productive discussions about making the situation better.

What do you think is the best solution? Personally, I am a supporter of the Geneva Initiative.

http://www.geneva-accord.org

Sadly, there aren't a lot of folks in power in the region who are too keen on talking about peace.

[procon]

23. "Peace" is a two street,

and as much as Palestine's leaders can be criticized, so must Israel shoulder the degree of blame commensurate with its oppressive military occupation and the policies of discrimination that punish ordinary civilians.

You say the Geneva Accord is a good start, but one of the key provisions of establishing borders between Palestine and Israel based on the data from 1967. I agree that it is a worthwhile consideration, and restoring the borders and the accompanying Palestinian property rights is essential if there is to any hope of success. Doesn't Israel still oppose this?

[oberliner]

24. Agreed

The current Israeli leadership is dreadful and is definitely as anti-peace as the leadership on the Palestinian side, if not more so.

My personal hope is that this government crashes and burns quickly and is replaced by a more reasonable group that will move quickly towards an agreement along the lines of said accord.

[procon]

30. Well, there you have it.

I sincerely hope you're right, oberliner. War is never the solution. Maybe the younger generation will be more willing to see one another as regular people and be willing to talk to each other and reshape their lives in ways that the angry old men found too difficult to comprehend.

Together, both sides could achieve so much that would benefit everyone and create the peace and prosperity they all dream of.

[Jefferson23]

29. Reasonable people would be hard to find, the Geneva Accord would not allow for a viable state.

Large settlement blocks and most of the settlers are annexed to Israel, as part of a 1:1 land swap.

A demilitarized Palestinian state ( means no army for the Palestinians )

A comprehensive and complete Palestinian commitment to fighting terrorism and incitement. ( Funny, no
requirement from the Israeli side)

When the main large settlement blocs go to Israel, a bantustan will be the left overs for the Palestinians.

There are other injustices, but I think anyone reading should be able to see through it.

[Scootaloo]

38. I didn't say Jews live in Gaza, Oberliner.

And Mandela drew frequent comparisons between the ANC and the PLO and their respective struggles, drawing direct comparisons and parallels to Israel and the White South African regime. If he weren't dead, i'm sure he would apologize for not giving you a snappy little soundbyte that says exactly what he says, but in five words or less.

My point is that Israel rules territory beyond just Israel. it has since its foundation. The people ruled in these territories are not part of the system they are ruled under. they are treated as subjects at best and threats at worst. They are denied any participation in the governance that controls their lives and their land. Which we might expect from an occupation of course, except for one thing.

Israel considers the territories it rules outside its borders, to actually belong to Israel. Jerusalem, the west bank, Golan and yes, even Gaza. In three of these four territories, it has illegally imported its own population (and often illegally deports the natives as well.) These israelis live under israeli civil law, with all the benefits and rights of israelis - rights and benefits denied the people they live right next to. Whose rights are usually stripped and discarded to make way for these Israelis.

And while yes, there are non-Jewish Israelis (20% of the state's population) this is not reflected in these settlement enterprises - 20% of Israel's settlers are not gentiles. They are, with some individual exceptions, Jews. because unsurprisingly, the Jewish State gives state favor to Jews. This is demonstrated primarily in the distribution of land, building permits, and the different way that property rights are handled.

It's kind of the entire point of Israel, after all. You can't have a Jewish Supremacist state without Jewish supremacism. And you can't have ethnic supremacism of ANY variety without subjugating the other ethnicities ruled to the benefit of the favored ethnicity.

[Mosby]

58. oslo 2, interim agreement ring a bell?

What you do here - do you think it helps Palestinians?

[hack89]

6. How are the non-Jewish Israelis treated differently? Nt

[guillaumeb]

41. Since you have asked,

Here is one link:

http://www.itisapartheid.org/laws.html

Here is another:
http://electronicintifada.net/content/lawsuit-challenges-israels-discriminatory-citizenship-definition/8767

And here is yet another:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/12/are-not-citizens-with-equal-rights-201412214135428310.html

Please do not respond that two of the sites are Palestinian/Arab sites. If you can refute what is offered please do so.

[hack89]

42. Thanks. Nt

[Jefferson23]

12. The author lives in Jerusalem since the late 90's..wonder how keen he is on EJ

as the capital for the Palestinians. He relies heavily on the bogus question, why are people
concerned about what Israel does? Gee, I can't imagine, couldn't be decades long occupation.

Ex-U.N. Official John Dugard: Israel’s Crimes are "Infinitely Worse" Than in Apartheid South Africa

As Palestine joins the International Criminal Court, former U.N. Special Rapporteur John Dugard talks about how an apartheid case could be brought against Israel in the ICC. "I’m a South African who lived through apartheid," Dugard said. "I have no hesitation in saying that Israel’s crimes are infinitely worse than those committed by the apartheid regime of South Africa."

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2015/5/6/ex_un_official_john_dugard_israel

[eloydude]

14. Now compare your idea of "apartheid" to this..

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Wheres-the-international-outcry-against-Arab-apartheid

[Scootaloo]

36. Lebanon practices Aparheid against Palestinains as well

Now here's a question.

Israel practices apartheid because it a racist regime that wants to preserve a particular demographic's dominance. This necessitates the disenfranchisement of Israel's Palestinain Arab population, oppression against arabs in Palestine, and a constant effort to oppose any and all recognition of the refugees from lands Israel now claims.

Lebanon practices apartheid because it is a sectarian regime that wants to preserve a particular demographic balance. This necessitates the disenfranchisement of its Palestinian refugee population, refusal to allow them citizenship, and frequent police and military brutality to "keep them down."

What i want to know is why you and every other Zionist on this board absolutely, wholeheartedly support hte first situation, but abhorr the second.

They are the same thing, done to the same people, for the same reason. The only difference is who is doing it.

[Israeli]

43. Something that might interest you Scoot ....

With reference to this :

" Arabs living in these places live by very different, more restrictive laws than Jews who live there - even though the Jews living there do so illegally. "

A new website .

First some background :

Exposing Israeli law in the Palestinian territories - on the silver screen and on the web

New website picks up where Ra'anan Alexanderowicz's outstanding documentary 'The Law In These Parts' left off.

By Nirit Anderman

When Ra’anan Alexandrowicz began working on the documentary “The Law in These Parts” (In Hebrew “Shilton Hahok”), he encountered many skeptical looks and heard quite a few warnings. “Some people said to me: ‘Be careful, you’re taking on something that’s impossible to turn into a film. The subject is too big, too complex, too dry,” he said four years ago.

Despite that, “The Law in These Parts,” which deals with the legal system in the territories, where Israel operates a military administration, has become one of the outstanding documentaries of recent years. He was able to attract viewers in Israel and worldwide to a fascinating journey in the wake of this strange system and the problems it creates, and won the prize for best documentary at the Sundance Film Festival and the Jerusalem Film Festival.

Yet the warnings were not superfluous, and the success of the film didn’t eliminate Alexandrowicz’s growing frustration. In order to make this film he devoted himself to an in-depth study that lasted several years, during which he read hundreds of books and documents, interviewed dozens of people and burrowed in all kinds of archives. But in the 100-minute film he could only include a very small percentage of the information he had gathered. The project that was born of this sense of frustration – an interactive website, based on the materials of the film as well and many other materials, which offers a new model for websites of documentaries – will be unveiled today at the Bialik Complex in Tel Aviv. This will be among the events put on by the CoPro Documentary Marketing Foundation – an annual event in which Israeli documentaries are presented to senior executives of foreign foundations and television networks.

The new website includes a database of filmed materials that didn’t make it into the film, documents and articles dealing with the film’s subject, and documentation of lectures and panels on the subject. An internal search engine enables users to find materials that interest them according to various cross-references, such as topics, the identity of the interviewees, and important questions (for example, what is the difference between the law in Israel and that in the territories?)

But the website invites them to go beyond passive watching and reading. For example, they are invited to enter an “editing room” where they can view raw materials and navigate among them according to various cross-references, and they can upload to the site film clips or articles that they have created by themselves in order to present a personal theory of their own.

“Making films as a medium for documentation has advantages and disadvantages,” explains Alexandrowicz. “The advantages are related to the type of experience that these films provide the viewer and their ability to bring him closer to a specific topic. I know that if I make a good film it will reach far more people than an article or a book on the same subject, and I also know that the type of experience I will give them will penetrate them more than a news report, for example, because it will contain an emotional journey and provide the viewers with various points of view. On the other hand, one of the disadvantages of the documentary medium, especially on complex subjects that require comprehensive research, is that in order to create these effects you have to narrow the focus in a way that is sometimes problematic.

“That was my problem in ‘The Law in These Parts’: I underwent a very long learning process, lots of materials and perspectives, and in spite of the film’s success and the discussion it aroused, in the final analysis I ended up very frustrated, because I felt that it was unable to cover the subject well, that the documentation was still too skimpy,” the director said.

That’s why immediately after finishing work on the film, Alexandrowicz and producer Liran Atzmor started to build the website, so they could provide those who are interested with a more comprehensive experience that the one provided by the film. The website makes it possible to shatter the traditional cycle of life of a documentary – if until now that included only distribution to movie theaters, being aired on television and a DVD, the website enables the continuation of the discussion about the film, with the lectures, articles and panels.

“In effect, here the wall between making a film and talking about it has been broken down, suddenly everything is accessible, and as long as people want to deal with the film. it continues to live even if its creators have already moved on and are dealing with new things,” says Alexandrowicz.

He and Atzmor hope the format they have created will also be of use to other documentarians and enable them to create “open docu.” But of course this idea is relevant only for documentaries based on comprehensive research, and not for films that focus on a small personal story. They say that the cost of setting up the website was about $150,000. Alexandrowicz hopes that the website will also succeed where so many documentary filmmakers fail: mobilizing the audience’s involvement in the subject of the film.

Source: http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel/.premium-1.658092

The new site is at :
http://www.thelawfilm.com/inside

[Israeli]

11. Its a well crafted argument against BDS ....

However .......

Settlements have been built and today house some 400,000 Jews, plus another 200,000 in East Jerusalem. Large numbers are there for the clean air and good living, but messianic zeal is at the heart of it. Settlers are opposed by many Israelis; but they enjoy support, and the government funnels millions of dollars to them, legally and illegally.

Israel is in military occupation of the West Bank. Day after day the actions needed to maintain it debase Palestinian victims as well as their Israeli occupiers. It means checkpoints, late-night raids and detentions and killings, and administrative cruelties in regulating people’s lives. Palestinians resist and fight back, attacking both soldiers and settlers; sometimes that has seen them undermine their own morality through suicide bombings against civilians.

This is occupation. It is a tyranny. It is wrong and must end. The point does not need to be embellished. Dragging in the emotive word “apartheid” is not only incorrect but creates confusion and distracts from the main issue.

What is the main issue ?

As I see it the main issue is the tyranny of the occupation .

Benjamin Pogrund gives no alternative to BDS .

Perhaps like oberliner he thinks this Gov will collapse soon and Buji will replace Bibi ....and all will be well ???

BDS is not the problem oberliner......its the dream of a Greater Israel that motivates our religious Right wing that is the problem .....and right now there is nobody strong enough to stand against them .

I believe those campaigners want Israel declared an apartheid state so it becomes a pariah, open to the world’s severest sanctions. Many want not just an end to the occupation but an end to Israel itself.

We are already a " pariah " and because of the occupation we deserve " the world’s severest sanctions " .

Many might want " an end to Israel itself. " ....but that is not going to happen ...

So whats your alternative to BDS oberliner ?

[King_David]

21. BDS has been a failure in of itself

It hasn't taken off at all.

And the movement may have been well intentioned but has been hijacked to the extent that it's not targeting just Israel but now Jews worldwide.

Look at South Africa- a kosher butchery was targeted by the BDS movement who left a severed pigs head inside.

[Israeli]

39. Denmark cancels Elbit deal....

Denmark has cancelled its planned purchase of howitzers from the Israeli arms company Elbit Systems, a deal that was worth up to DK 1.000 million.

The progressive news portal modkraft notes that athough government officials cite financial reasons for the cancellation, others say this is an excuse and that public pressure against the deal is what broke it.

Elbit Systems has been directly involved in construction of Israel's Separation Wall. It provides security to Israeli settlements and has produced drones used in last summer's military attack on the Gaza Strip.

In December 2014 it was revealed that 20 Danish soldiers had been to Israel, testing Elbit's artillery systems. A public outcry followed after which the Danish defence ministry backed down, states Christian Juhl from the Red-Green Alliance parliamentary group. “I believe the purchase may have been put on hold for tactical reasons”, states Juhl, referring to Denmark's upcoming elections in September.

Source: http://www.alternativenews.org/english/index.php/activism/bds/794-denmark-cancels-elbit-deal

[King_David]

44. Sorry just saw this reply now,

I'll have to read the article later.

[deathrind]

31. The fact...

That this type of article has to be written tells something in and of itself. Regardless if the metric for the comparison in the article above is fully met the perception is still out there and Isreals conduct in the matter is not doing itself any favors.

[oberliner]

32. True

If one is reduced to the "at least we're not an apartheid state" argument, then one is in trouble.

[Scootaloo]

37. Especially when even that isn't true.

[oberliner]

46. "Israel is a wonderful democracy with equal treatment of all citizens whether Arab or Jew"

That's from former President Carter.

Maybe you should read one of his books?

[Scootaloo]

49. Except it's not.

Have you already forgotten?

Carter's wrong, and you're lying.

[oberliner]

54. Except it is

President Carter is right, and there is no lying going on (I don't even know what that could be in reference to).

It's fascinating that you think you know more about this subject than President Carter, who has written about it extensively.

Unlike you, he has also been there numerous times and actually spoken to real honest to goodness Israelis and Palestinians.

But I guess your "internet research" trumps all of that...

[Scootaloo]

56. No, frankly he's not right

Look, here's the thing about Carter. He's a great guy, and I respect him... but he's also a Pollyanna with a southern baptist's rose-colored spectacles on the issue of Israel. I've read what he writes on the subject. it's like reading a Dora the Explorer coloring book, because he bends himself in knots to try to present acts without being harshly critical of Jesus' Landing Pad - the result is mostly pablum, because one cannot present facts and spare the feelings of the nation that is creating the situations those facts describe.

Right now, Israelis are being evicted, their homes destroyed, in order to make living room for the state's preferred ethnicity. Right this second. As we type, it is happening. These people have no political clout to oppose this happening to them. becuase the ruling government is strictly anti-arab.

This is not a wonderful democracy with fair treatment of all its citizens. I can excuse Carter for his rose-colored glasses (he needs a new prescription, evidently) but you? You know that what he's saying is not supported by the facts. You know what is being done. And further, you support and endorse it. So when you come here and throw Carter's quote at me as if that should end the debate, even while you know the quote is factually wrong... that's lying.

it's also an attempt at argument from authority, which doesn't work any better, I'm afraid.

[PoliticalPothead]

51. “I have no hesitation in saying that Israel’s crimes are infinitely worse than those committed by...

...the apartheid regime of South Africa.”

That's from John Dugard, a South African human rights lawyer and former UN Special Rapporteur.

Maybe you should read one of his books?

[oberliner]

55. Which book of his would you suggest?

He has written none about Israel that I am aware of.

[on point]

35. That's why they are not building a massive wall to separate themselves from others

Yeah right.

[King_David]

40. The wall has been very effective in preventing suicide attacks.

It's being used now in other parts of the world too.

Kenya to build a wall on Somali border to keep out al-Shabaab

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/02/kenya-wall-israel-separation-barrier