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Lyric

(12,675 posts)
Thu Dec 22, 2011, 11:47 AM Dec 2011

The Peak Oil Crisis: 2012 -- Apocalypse Now?

Looking at what seems to be shaping up for 2012 that could be of apocalyptic proportions we have the rapidly deteriorating financial situation in the EU. Despite endless expressions of optimism on the part of political leaders, most unbiased observers believe there is nothing that can be done to prevent an economic downturn. Some are politely referring to this downturn as a double-dip recession, but others foresee a global depression equal to or worse than the one that occurred 80 years ago. The "worse than" thesis comes from the notion that there will not be the quantities of cheap energy available to support a recovery, and that there will have to be a major transition in the sources and use of energy before economic growth will ever resume.

(snip)

The second set of problems likely to explode in 2012 is the political instability. The most serious is in the Arab world, but as demonstrations in Moscow, China, Kazakhstan, Europe, and even mild ones on Wall Street show, social unrest is turning into a worldwide problem as resources become constrained and economic growth slows. Mankind now has seven billion mouths to feed and these are increasing by 70 million each year. There is going to be a turning point, the only question is when?

Unrest and various geopolitical confrontations have already reduced or eliminated oil exports from Libya, Yemen, and Syria this year. Efforts to sanction Iran seem to be picking up steam and the oil markets are nervous that many countries soon will be forced to stop buying Iranian crude. The Syrian situation continues downhill and the delicate Iraqi political balance that was crafted by the US appears to have lasted for only a few days after the last US troops were withdrawn. It is a good bet that there is going to be less oil exported from the Middle East and possibly Central Asia by the end of next year - raising oil prices despite deteriorating economic conditions.


Read full article: http://www.countercurrents.org/whipple221211.htm

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Have any of you been preparing for Peak Oil? I know that loading your garage with food supplies, fuel, and other necessities seems paranoid from a certain perspective...but on the other hand, those paranoid types are going to be the ones doing well when everything goes to hell and the system falls apart. Any ideas how low-income people in particular can prepare for the effects of Peak Oil? And do you think it's going to be a sudden catastrophe, or more like a frog-in-a-boiling-pot situation?
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Viva_La_Revolution

(28,791 posts)
1. I've been slowly gathering supplies for the past few years..
Thu Dec 22, 2011, 12:05 PM
Dec 2011

just a few dollars at a time. I pick up a couple of gallons of water every trip to the store, or something canned that will last for years. A big bag of rice or beans from the import store will be good for even longer. Got the tent, weather gear, cooking items in the garage too. Still working on the extra clothes and toiletries and first aid.
the freezer in there has meat that can be cooked or dried when it starts to thaw, and I have several 'bags' of soups and stews in there that will stay cold enough to get us thru several days.
As long as the Garage stays fairly intact (say in an a Cascadia quake) we'll be ok.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
2. Lets keep Peak oil in perspective, oil production will drop, but gradually not rapidly
Thu Dec 22, 2011, 06:19 PM
Dec 2011

Last edited Thu Dec 22, 2011, 08:23 PM - Edit history (1)

Remember Peak Oil is expected to follow the same standard statistical bell curve, most oil fields follow (Some fields, like the North Sea, play out faster then others, but when you add the fields together, as in Peak Oil theory, the overall trend is a Statistical Bell Curve).

The key to that is World Wide oil production (ignoring recessions where oil use tends to fall, and with it production) is believed to have peaked in 2005, thus pol production in 2010 should be about the same as 2000 (And given that all of this is close to one another, it is the Plateau people of talking of when discussing Peak Oil).

Oil production in 2030, will be about the same as 1980. Oil production in 2050, will be about the same as in 1960. Oil production in 2070 will be about the same as 1940. Oil production 2151 will be about what it was in 1859 (When Colonel Drake drilled the first oil well).

Now, this is world wide production, and consumption has changed since 1859. Most Americans did NOT own a car till after WWII (1945), but cars were common by the start of WWI (1914). Most of the people of the world do NOT own an automobile, but almost everyone has seen one.

My point is that the drop in oil production will be gradual. Over time more and more people will NOT be able to afford oil, and will stop using it. That will be a drop in demand and will lead to price stabilization till production drops even more. Thus we will see steps, many steps have already occurred. most people can afford oil for their automobiles till the price of Gasoline per gallon approximates what they earn for an hour work. The Connection is less clear for High Income people, but is is clear for low income people, the main reason the price of oil stop raising in 2008 appears to be that more and more Americans on Minimum wage, could not longer afford to buy the gasoline to get to and from work and thus had to do something, some ended up taking public transportation, many had to make adjustments. If the price had gone further then what it did, many would have had to quit their jobs. American Minimum wage earners had started to crack, but more severe cracks occurred at the same time overseas, so the price of oil broke.

I had discussed this in DU2, even did a calculation:

7.15 x 2080 hours in a 40 hour work week for 52 weeks equals 14, 872
Less Housing (if the worker is in public housing, then 30% of income or $4461
Less taxes, 7 % Social Security tax, 2 % state and 1% Local" $1487
365 days a year, 3 meals a day, total $10 a day ($2 for Breakfast, $3 for Lunch, $5 for Dinner) equal $3650 a year on food

Total: $9598 total expenses, just to be alive, Leaving $5274 for any other expense:

If you assume the person has a car that gets 20mpg, and drives 15,000 a year (the average for most Americans) that is 750 Gallons of Gasoline a year. Divide $5274 by 750 gallons you get $7.03 price of a Gallon of Gasoline where the Minimum wage Worker can NOT feed himself, pay his taxes, pay his rent AND go to and from work.

Now, other expenses exist, such as children, Dental and Medical, thus the actual number is way less then $7.03 but shows you the absolute last time where a minimum wage worker can pay his taxes, pay his rent, feed himself AND go to and from work. At that point something will give, and generally gives way before that point.

Notice I am ignoring several additional costs people incur, for example the cost of buying, maintaining, insuring, licensing an automobile, that is roughly an additional $1000 a year. I am also ignoring the existence of any Medical bills, Dental bills or even children. Feeding one child will be about the same as an adult, thus at least another $1500 a year(Less then half the price of an adult) which leaves only $3774, if you divide that by 750 gallons that gives a cut off of about $5.02 a gallon. If we assume $1000 a year for the above cost of keeping a car over and above the cost of fuel, that leaves $2774 for gasoline and other expenses. That means the cut off is $3.69.

Now, I give the above numbers NOT as the exact cut off point for people to stop buying gasoline, but as a guideline of when people will do so. People will try to avoid paying the price, but minimum wage employees have limitations as to such methods. For example, most minimum wage employees only buy cars 10 or more years old. Small cars of that age is shipped to Asia for re-sale, higher demand in Asia thus higher price. That leave mid size and large American cars for low income people, and such cars made around 2000 tended to gt about 20 mpg. Many such low income workers end up working in the suburbs as nighttime janitors, thus mass transit is not a real option for them given their work schedule.

Thus higher prices for gasoline will force low income people out of their cars, and onto the unemployment lines. Employers will have to do something to retain such workers. Such employers will try everything first, then what they need to do, either, move closer to where their worker live OR move their workers closer to where the work is. Retailers will HATE both choices, building low income housing neat the malls will resisted as will moving back into the inner city. On the other hand employers will have to do one or the other (and probably both) just to stay in business. The price of Gasoline will force the choice, but employers will try EVERYTHING else first AND blame the Government for NOT finding a way to get such employees to the Employers.

 

4dsc

(5,787 posts)
5. What are your prediction based upon?
Fri Dec 23, 2011, 09:41 AM
Dec 2011

I have a real problem with your assumptions that "oil production in 2030, will be about the same as 1980". I have seen many predictions but this one appears to be the most rosy one yet. Its estimated that by 2020 the worlds oil production will be 20-30% less than today's totals. I would love to know what you base you numbers upon.


[img][/img]

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
7. Yes, those assumptions look decidedly optimistic
Fri Dec 23, 2011, 01:23 PM
Dec 2011

Here is my take on the global oil decline rate. I made this projection four years ago, and I underestimated the length of the peak plateau. Overall though, the curve still looks reasonable to me - especially given the uncertainty in regional decline rates and the impact of the unfolding global depression.

The one thing I didn't factor in is the net export crisis. For the USA I expect that issue to have a far bigger socioeconomic impact than the raw global production decline.

World Energy to 2050

The post-peak decline rate is another question. The best guides we have are the performances of oil fields and countries that are known to be already in decline. Unfortunately, those decline rates vary all over the map. The United States, for instance, has been in decline since 1970 and has lost 40% of its production capacity since then, for a decline rate of about 2% per year. On the other hand, the North Sea basin is showing an annual decline around 10%, and the giant Cantarell field in Mexico is losing production at rates approaching 20% per year.

In order to create a realistic decline model for the world's oil, I have chosen to follow the approach of the Energy Watch Group, which is similar in profile to the projections of Dr. Bakhtiari in his WOCAP model . Both assume a gradually increasing decline rate over time, starting off very gently and ramping up as the years go by.

The main difference is that the EWG model is slightly less aggressive than WOCAP. WOCAP predicts that production will fall from its current value of 4000 million tonnes of oil per year (Mtoe/yr) to 2750 Mtoe/yr in 2020, while the EWG projects a decline to 2900 Mtoe/yr by then. The EWG projects an oil supply of just under 2000 Mtoe in 2030. My model projects a decline rate increasing from 1% per year in 2010 to a constant rate of 5% per year after 2025, resulting in an average decline rate of 4% per year between now and 2050. In 2050 oil production is only 18% of what it is today, as shown in Figure 1.


 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
13. look at the SLOPE of the graph you used for 1965-1973 and post 2005
Tue Dec 27, 2011, 01:03 PM
Dec 2011

Thew slope of BOTH section of that Graph is about the same (through one is going up, the other going down). That was do to the affect of the Arab Oil embargo in 1973 and the Iranian Crisis of 1979, both increased the PRICE of oil excessively. That price increased is believed to have DELAYED peak oil from about 200 to 2005. Some of the dispute with a direct application of Hurbert's curve can be explained by that delay in reaching peak. In fact according to your graph, it looks like peak should have occurred in the late 1970s to the early 1980s and then go into decline, but did NOT do to the overall decline in the INCREASE use of oil during the 1970s and 1980s (Actually increase close to the pre-1973 levels did NOT re-incur till AFTEr 2000, through oil use did increase in the 1980s and 1990s, but at much lower rates then in year prior to 1973).

I suspect a similar (in reverse order) slow decrease in oil usage over the next 20 years. Prices will go up, till a sizable segment of the users of oil can no longer afford to use oil, at which point the price of oil will stabilize for a time period (May be days, weeks, months or even years but NOT decades). After a while oil even at that price will become rare, till the price reaches a point where even more people stop using oil, then the price will drop till enough people can not longer afford oil and thus stop buying oil and the price stabilizes again. This will occur over and over again till past 2100.

Side Note: If you study Zoning laws, you will find out that most Zoning law reflects that people with money will use their Political power to have laws passed and enforce so that they do NOT have to out spend someone else. The Classic Situation is New York City where Zoning Laws started. The Millionaires used their money and connections to get Zoning laws passed for the poor were willing to pay more on a per foot basis then the rich were willing to pay. I.e. the poor would live in a tiny apartment and pay top dollar for it, if the alternative is to live on the Street. Thus the poor, as a WHOLE, will pay more to live in a block built for such tiny apartments, then the upper middle class will pay for their single homes on the same block (i.e. 1000 people will pay $100 a month, thus a total payment of $100,000 dollars a month to live in a large apartment complex, while their millionaire upper middle class neighbors only wants to pay $10,000 a month for the same block, thus the 1000 poor people outbid the single upper middle class person). It is for this reason, that the poor will pay more per square foot then their upper middle class neighbors is why Zoning laws were passed, to prevent such out bidding by the poor for housing in Upper Middle Class Neighborhoods.

I bring up Zoning law, for I suspect the Upper Middle Class (The 1 %) will face the same situation as oil prices raise, and address the issue as they did with the Housing situation mentioned above, by passing a law where it will be harder for the Poor and Working Class to obtain oil EVEN IF THEY HAVE THE MONEY TO PAY FOR THE OIL. I will NOT be surprised at new laws requiring older cars to be Junked rather then repaired (the best excuse for such a ban would be pollution controls, but other reasons will be used), all to reduce DEMAND for oil and thus the price of oil BUT at the cost of the poor and working class have less and less ability to obtain oil for their own use. A side affect of this will be further delay in the decline in the use of oil.

This one two punch (First punch is the increase in price of oil leading to a decline in use, the Second punch will be the increase laws against the poor and working class from obtaining oil) will slow down the price affect, of the decline in oil production. A side affect will be a slow down in overall usage and thus we will see production return to a more Hurbert's curve production curve then the production level you cite. Only time will tell as to how fast oil production will decline, but we can do a good bit of planning during that decline and hopefully we will as soon as the majority of Americans finally accept oil production is in decline and one side affect of that is increase prices for oil Right now, most Americans are in denial as to Peak Oil, or blame some conspiracy for the increase in the price of oil since 2002. Sooner or later the America people will have to address the problems of Peak Oil, but not until it starts hitting them more then it has. Right now, high price of oil is a problem, but a problem most people can address, but sooner or later it will hit harder in that people will no longer be able to go to and from work, when that occurs I see problems including riots and maybe even a revolution if no one addresses the problems caused by the raising price of oil

NickB79

(19,286 posts)
14. And if countries start beating the war drums over the remaining oil resources?
Tue Dec 27, 2011, 05:02 PM
Dec 2011

Your analysis is well-reasoned if applied to a rational, logical world. We, unfortunately, don't live in such a world. Things such as political unrest and even resource wars are a very real possibility, not just due to Peak Oil but also climate change as food resources are strained.

I wouldn't count on a nice, orderly decline in oil consumption when so many nations that depend on it also have massive weapons inventories at hand. For example, just today Iran threatened to close the Strait of Hormuz to oil exports: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/27/us-iran-oil-hormuz-idUSTRE7BQ0I320111227

Things are getting fun indeed.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
15. Economic reality is a tough thing to defeat militarily
Tue Dec 27, 2011, 08:12 PM
Dec 2011

Last edited Tue Dec 27, 2011, 09:08 PM - Edit history (1)

First lets discuss the use of Nuclear Weapons in a war over oil. If a nuclear power threatens an oil producer with a nuclear strike unless the oil producer turns over all of its oil to the Nuclear power, what would happen is the oil producer say "go ahead nuke us"? The Nuclear power will NOT want to use its Nuclear weapons around the oil fields, think about trying to sell radioactive gasoline back home? Destroying the country's infrastructure, with nuclear weapons, would just make it harder, or not impossible to pump and transport the oil. Thus Nuclear weapons is on limited use of a Nuclear power wants an oil producing country's oil.

On the other hand, if the oil producing country has the bomb, it has very good reason to use Nuclear Weapons on any attacking military force, but well before it reaches the oil fields.

Conventional weapons, do to their smaller blast area, would be more advantages to the attacking military force. Less damage to the oil fields, the infrastructure to maintain, pump and export oil from those fields and less damage to the infrastructure that people running those fields will have to live in.

Thus any ATTACKING force will avoid the use of Nuclear Weapons, preferring conventional weapons (Including "smart weapons&quot .

Furthermore, once the field is taken, how do you treat the people who live in that area? The best solution is to move citizens from the occupying country into the area where the oil fields exist, and such citizens will provide all of the services needed by the occupying forces AND oil field workers.

Given that the US will want the oil, how do we get US Citizens to want to live in Kuwait AND the areas north and east of it, where most of Iran's oil is, AND to the South of Kuwait, just across the Saudi Arabian Border, where most of Arabia oil is? I am NOT talking about people living among the natives in those areas, but people living in that area in sizable self contain housing projects AFTER we kick out of the locals for being hostile to the US occupation of their homes. Other then such Roman Colony type situations, the US will have to make some sort of deal with the locals, a deal we would have had to agree to if we never moved in (i.e. no war).

In simple terms, the old military maxim, went that it takes three times the number of soldiers to hold something, then to take it, will have to be modified given the situation in the oil fields that is take more then 10 times the troops to hold the oil fields and how oil is exported, then it would take to take such oil fields and oil export infrastructure. We can take those oil fields, but sooner or later we will have to do one of two things, either kill every man, woman and child within 50 miles of the oil fields, and replace them with Americans OR cut a deal with the Native, which in most cases would have been the same deal if we NEVER tried to take the oil fields.

A second problem, is how do we get the oil to take those fields, when we need the oil in the fields to do the attack? i.e. we have to use the oil produced in those fields to take over those fields. No access to oil, no oil to run the tanks and other military equipment we would have to use to take those fields.

Chemical and Biological weapons are good at getting rid of hostile local civilian populations, but how do we replace the people we kill off?

Now, if we accept that fact that the neither the US. Europe, Japan or China (Russia is expected to stay an oil exporter over the next two decades) would nuke an oil producer do to their need for oil, that leaves fights among those four over oil from an oil producer (And NOT Russia, for Russia has the Nuclear and conventional weapons to defend its oil fields, which tend to be deep inside Russia). All four countries will face the same problems as mentioned above AND that each of them would gladly support any local opposition to any move by any one of them as to the oil. i.e. lots of light weapons to the locals to fight who ever invades, on the promise of oil

That leaves Venezuela and the Persian Gulf as areas the great powers will fight over. Venezuela is jungle, while the area around where the oil exists has been hostile to Chavez, the leadership of that area has never decided to oppose Chavez militarily for the simple reason Chavez has support even in that part of Venezuela and that would be all Chavez needs to keep the area under Control. That area MAY switch sides (i.e. support the US) the problem it is to small to stay truly separate from the rest of Venezuela, where Chavez has massive support. That support will provide Chavez the men he would need to do an effective Guerrilla Campaign. Thus Venezuela is out of the picture.

The Persian Gulf is another story, the oil fields are in an area of high Shiite populations. Well their are Arabs in the Part of those fields in Iran, the local Arabs are mostly Shiite not Sunni Moslems. For that reason has NOT been much of a problem in Iran, but has been a constant headache for Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. Both have used Carrot and Stick policy in the area, generous benefits to the locals, but will crush anything that looks like a revolt.

For the US to take that area it would have to do one of two things, first ally itself with Iran and take over the area and give it to Iran to rule. Tell Iran, it can keep both areas as long as the oil produced in the area goes to the US first. The downside of this policy is the US will have to ally with the present Government of Iran.

The second option is to take the Iranian fields and kick out all the local Shiites into Iran. This does two things, it removes a security risk to US hold on the Iranian oil fields AND scares the Shiites in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia what can happen to them unless they cooperate with the US Occupation. The downside is every Shiite in the Middle East (Including Iraq) will hate out guts and we will have to be on guard for Guerrilla activities. This would require a massive increase in US Infantry forces, more then we can recruit so the draft will have to return. The opposition to the Draft in the US will kill this option, at least for a time.

My point is Military options when it comes Oil are limited, limited more do to the nature of how we pump and transport oil then anything else. It takes a lot less effort to STOP oil being pumped and transported then it takes to pump and transport such oil and the US advantages over Europe, Japan and China is NOT that great. US will have to share or use almost as much (if not more) oil to protect the oil being produced, The cost in oil usage to protect the oil being produced will reduce the military options when it comes to protecting such oil production.

Now, some military efforts will be made, but sooner or later all sides will realize they will have more oil for internal use if they just agree to divide the oil being produced. Into that decision will be the oil producers playing all four sides against each other for they internal benefit. Thus military action will be limited, the greater concern will be protecting oil production from internal foes as it becomes clear that he who has access to oil, will be in a more powerful position then he that has no access. I am looking at INTERNAL US problems, as oil prices goes up and people demand first claim on the oil. This can lead to internal problems, including riots. A factor the military will have to adjust to, and such adjustment will make the military less capable of taking over oil fields.

The main problem will be that as the Military trains and prepare to handle riots in the US suburbs do to lack of oil, it will lose the ability to do offensive action overseas. The training and equipment is different for each type of conflict and the worse thing to do is send a riot control trained army to fight an army trained to defeat another army in open warfare (Almost as bad as sending an army trained to defeat another army to put down a riot, the training and equipment of that type of army is less then ideal for riot control).

Side note: The US army coming out of Iraq, is much more set up for urban Warfare then it was in 2002 when the US took Baghdad. The Stryker vehicles can take a good bit of punishment, but not a blast from a true anti-tank weapon and does NOT have the off road capacity of the M1 Tank nor the M2 Bradley Infantry vehicle.

On the other hand the Stryker, being a wheeled vehicle, can go much further and quicker then a tracked vehicle like the M1 and M2 Bradley. The Stryker is an ideal urban fighting vehicle, enough protection from small arms fire, enough fire power to destroy any possible hiding position urban fighters can take cover behind, transport enough troops AND be available day after day. The Stryker would to a lousy weapon against something like the T-72 and the BMP-2 of the old Soviet Union, but the M2 and M1 would be off duty for maintenance in any urban fighting that can go on for days, weeks if not months (As what happened in Iraq), unlike the Stryker which can be on duty and available for use when M1 tanks and M2 Bradley are out of service (Tracks on M1 and M2 Bradley still are limited to about 2000 miles before they need to be replaced, tires on the Stryker can go up to 50,000 miles before they need to be replaced).

Thus, the Stryker is a good vehicle in the fighting that has occurred in Iraq SINCE the end of the invasion of Iraq, but it would have been a lousy vehicle in the march to Baghdad that occurred during the invasion of Iraq.

The US Army today, is better able to defeat what the US faced from 2003 till 2010 in Iraq then in was in 2003 when the guerrilla war began, on the other hand the Army is less capable of doing something like the march on Baghdad, This can all change with some training, i.e. switch some units back to M1 tanks and M2 Bradleys and then be prepared to convert back to Strykers if and when such vehicles is needed. The US may decide to do both, give some units M2 Bradleys and other units Strykers and keep such units for the two different types of warfare. The issue then becomes can the US afford to maintain such dual fighting forces? Only time and money will tell.

For a 1998 report on Wheel vs Track armor see:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/2wheels98.pdf

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
16. I expect the effect of PO to be completely obscured by the coming global economic "difficulty"
Wed Dec 28, 2011, 11:52 AM
Dec 2011

PO-driven price increases during partial recoveries (like the one we're in now) will play a role in triggering successive deeper waves of recession, especially in the more vulnerable oil-dependent nations. This will probably take the form of a descending series of saw-toothed, stair-step partial recoveries followed by ever deeper troughs of recession/depression.

However, most people are unlikely to connect this situation with PO, instead blaming financial malfeasance, political shenanigans and commodity speculators. All of those are legitimate complaints, but underneath it all runs the non-negotiable physical reality of limited liquid fuel supplies. Add in the impact of climate change on food production and we're looking at an unholy world-wide mess.

If this assessment is correct - especially with the additional whammy of declining net oil exports - we won't need a rapid drop in production to trigger global chaos. After all, we're seeing chaos now, and we're still on the peak plateau - production hasn't even started to fall yet, it has just stopped climbing.

The big question for me is how this will play out in various countries, since each one has a different set of resources, economic status, political climate, social contract and military capability. As much as we would prefer a clear view into the crystal ball, specific predictions are impossible, but one thing seems sure - Robert Hirsch was right back in 2005, we're in for at least a couple of decades (and possibly more) of very hard times.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
17. I agree with the saw tooth decline AND that conflicts will occur
Wed Dec 28, 2011, 05:41 PM
Dec 2011

The problem is the problem of Peak Oil can NOT be resolved militarily, but many countries will try to do so. It will be more one country taking over another country's oil supply for internal use then some outside country moving in (i.e. Iran taking over Iraq and the North eastern part of Saudi Arabia for control of its oil for use IN IRAN.

The problem is the countries in most need of oil, are to far away to really take the fields AND HOLD THEM (The later is more important then the former, it is harder to hold something then to take it). Iran is the best example I can come up with, more do to the fact all three areas are Shiite and thus have a lot of connections with each other. Iran is historically the strongest of the three and thus in the best position to take over the oil fields of the others.

Another example of that type of take over would be if the US moved into Mexico and Cuba to take over the oil fields off the coasts of all three nations. Both Mexico and Cuba have few things in common with the US (Thus the proablity of the US making them part of the US AND both Mexico and Cuba accepting that annexation is extremely low). Thus NOT as possible as Iran taking over Iraq and Eastern Saudi Arabia. The main thing Cuba and Mexico has with the US is the nearest of both nations to the US (and US oil supplies are more extensive then Mexico's and Cuba's, thus the take over would be more an attempt to steal that oil for US use NOT to share it with Cuba and Mexico).


The second set of conflicts involves countruies that share a common oil field (mostly off shore). These POTENTIAL hot-spots can explode as Peak Oil hits the world hard. Here are some example of this second type of potential conflict:

1. Britain and Argentina may end up re-fighting the Falkland's war, but this time over the potential of oil being off the coast between the Argentina mainland and the Falkland islands.

2. Vietnam vs the Philippines vs China. All claim control over the Potential oil fields off their coasts, can lead to actual fighting, but no attack on any of the land parts of any of the three countries (Except as part of a plan to control the off shore oil fields between them).

3. In theory this can occur between Germany, Denmark England, Scotland and Norway (I mention Scotland separately from England in case the Scots do achieve independence). All border the North Sea and may fight over who gets what part of the remaining oil (Please note the North Sea has suffered severe drop in production, Britain for example has had to import oil for the first time since the North Sea oil field opened).

I give the above as examples of what CAN happen as oppose to what will happen. Other potential conflicts exists, most will be resolved without fighting as the parties accept that they can NOT have most of the oil, but what they can get by being agreeable is more then they can get by fighting. i.e. using a million barrels of oil to take an oil field with only one million barrels of oil is NOT worth the investment, an agreement for just 1/3 of the field without having to use any oil to get that 1/3 will be more profitable. Sooner or later most countries will accept this fact and come to a deal. Through some fighting will occur, most of it bravado, but after that phase has worked its way through, then a deal dividing the oil will be agreed to (Not necessary signed, the agreement may be "I know where your pumps are, you know where my pumps are, I will NOT attack your pumps if you do not attack my pumps" understanding or other crooked deal).

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
8. Hubbert's Curve
Sat Dec 24, 2011, 11:20 PM
Dec 2011
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

M. King Herbert was the first person to come up with the concept of Peak Oil AND make an accurate prediction based on that concept (It had long been assume oil production would peak and the fall, Herbert was the first man who had access to enough data to make such a prediction).

A post-hoc analysis of peaked oil wells, fields, regions and nations found that Hubbert's model was the "most widely useful" (providing the best fit to the data), though many areas studied had a sharper "peak" than predicted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert_peak_theory
http://www.peakoil.net/publications/hubberts-peak-the-impending-world-oil-shortage

Associations For the Study of Peak oil and Gas:
http://www.peakoil.net/

Yes, other predictions have been made, but Hubbert's was the first accurate prediction. Problems exist with Hubbert's theory, but it is the best guideline we have at present, thus my reliance on it.
 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
3. Preparing as in stockpiling food and ammo? No.
Thu Dec 22, 2011, 10:15 PM
Dec 2011

Preparation like that is a bridging strategy that works only for a short-term crisis. This shift is going to be more like a permanent transformation of our way of living. For the coming changes I recommend acquiring skills for human-powered living (gardening, animal husbandry, carpentry, leather-working, sewing, herbology, beer and winemaking etc.), buying a chunk of land, buying and learning to use hand tools of all sorts, and learning community-building skills.

If the only crisis we were facing was PO I'd forecast a boiling frog. But when you factor in a global financial crisis, rocketing food prices and the extreme weather events we're starting to see from climate change all at the same time, things could obviously change on a dime. All it takes is being in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong skill-set, and things can go pear-shaped in a hurry.

Lyric

(12,675 posts)
4. Well I can't afford to buy land, but I have some skills for hard living.
Thu Dec 22, 2011, 11:06 PM
Dec 2011

I guess all I can do it get better at those things and hope that someone else who DOES have land will need those skills. Or else, if everything REALLY falls apart, I can always find myself some land out in the middle of nowhere that used to belong to some utility company or corporation and reclaim it.

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
6. Plus, throw in disasters created by the rush to extract dwindling fules
Fri Dec 23, 2011, 11:09 AM
Dec 2011

Re: BP turning the food bowl of the Gulf of Mexico into a a death trap for a lot of species, causing massive unemployment, health problems, housing problems.
Fracking and coal extraction causing huge problems.
Shell just spilled 400,000 gallons of oil in...Liberia???

etc

NickB79

(19,286 posts)
9. Also disasters caused by the burning of said fuels, ie weather instability due to climate change
Sun Dec 25, 2011, 04:20 AM
Dec 2011

Food supplies are going to take a hit if droughts and floods ramp up in scale and frequency.

NickB79

(19,286 posts)
10. Why do you think a chunk of land is the way to go?
Sun Dec 25, 2011, 04:45 AM
Dec 2011

I also thought that, so I purchased a 1.5 acre property 3 years ago. While I still like the place, I'm starting to worry that the 5-10 mile drive to a major suburban area and our jobs might become a serious disadvantage later on. I'm almost thinking I should have purchased a smaller suburban lot (we passed up several 0.5-0.7 acre double lot homes at the time). It doesn't really matter now; I'm pretty much upside-down on the mortgage so there's no going back now

Do you have any concerns about people buying in suburban areas instead, and if so, why? Are you worried about civil unrest, or is it jut that most suburban lots can't be used for food production due to poor soil and small size?

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
11. It's a question of probabilities
Sun Dec 25, 2011, 01:15 PM
Dec 2011

A lot depends on how dire the situation becomes in any given place, but in general people who own land will be better off than those who don't. There are trade-offs to owning either suburban or rural land - rural settings give you more space but longer distances to travel and a more diffuse community. Suburban land is closer to places and people, but will be smaller and more subject to encroachment by opportunists.

In general things are probably going to come apart slower than some of us have feared - as you've seen - but land, skills and community are still the best insurance policy IMO.

In the event of a sudden global banking crash or a Zombie Apocalypse all bets are off, of course. In that case we'll all have to take our chances where we stand...

Kennah

(14,352 posts)
12. For inspiration, look to Cuba
Sun Dec 25, 2011, 06:55 PM
Dec 2011

If you have not seen it, watch ""The Power Of Community: How Cuba Survived Peak Oil

http://www.powerofcommunity.org

It is on Youtube.

Part 1 of 4



Part 2 of 4


Part 3 of 4


Part 4 of 4

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