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kristopher

(29,798 posts)
Tue Mar 20, 2012, 11:06 PM Mar 2012

Cities of Kyoto, Osaka and Kobe demand power provider exit nuclear

Kepco faces demand to exit nuclear power
Energy strategy body tells Osaka to put case to investors in June


By ERIC JOHNSTON
Staff writer

OSAKA — The city of Osaka should issue a demand at Kansai Electric Power Co.'s June shareholders' meeting that the utility get out of the nuclear power business and rely instead on renewable energy sources, a joint prefectural-municipal committee has recommended.

The proposal made Sunday by the joint energy strategy panel came a few days after the mayors of Kyoto, Osaka and Kobe were told by Kepco that nuclear power would remain an important energy resource. The mayors had called on the utility to provide a clear timetable for weaning itself from nuclear power.

Kepco, which has 11 reactors, all on the Sea of Japan coast in Fukui Prefecture and all currently idled, relied on them for about 44 percent of Kansai's electricity. The mayors have urged the utility to switch to liquefied natural gas and renewable sources.

The energy committee offered eight basic reform proposals that will be decided next month by the city assembly, where Osaka Mayor Toru Hashimoto's Osaka Ishin no Kai (One Osaka) is the largest group. The city also owns about 9 percent of Kepco's stock, making it the largest shareholder....


http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20120319x1.html
35 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Cities of Kyoto, Osaka and Kobe demand power provider exit nuclear (Original Post) kristopher Mar 2012 OP
Nuclear energy as we've come to know it is on its way out madokie Mar 2012 #1
FABRICATION; as per usual PamW Mar 2012 #2
CO2 footprint for nuclear expected to rise to level of natural gas kristopher Mar 2012 #3
BALONEY!!! PamW Mar 2012 #4
LIVERWURST!!! kristopher Mar 2012 #5
MISUNDERSTANDING PamW Mar 2012 #6
That is false. kristopher Mar 2012 #7
Nuclear CO2 emissions with declining ore quality kristopher Mar 2012 #8
Realy Kris? van Leeuwen? Dead_Parrot Mar 2012 #9
What a hoot you are. kristopher Mar 2012 #12
The link wasn't really for your benefit, kris Dead_Parrot Mar 2012 #15
I got the graphs from his paper, not an interview. kristopher Mar 2012 #16
Strange... Dead_Parrot Mar 2012 #19
lol... and yet still the physics say kristopher Mar 2012 #22
What, magic gas, 30yr lifetime and 82% capacity? Dead_Parrot Mar 2012 #23
BALONEY!!! PamW Mar 2012 #25
I thought you said that he was wrong because you could use nuclear for the electricity inputs? kristopher Mar 2012 #26
WRONG AS ALWAYS!! PamW Mar 2012 #27
Wrong way Pam strikes again. kristopher Mar 2012 #29
Asked and ANSWERED PamW Mar 2012 #31
That's about as valid as a report from BP claiming petroleum has no external costs kristopher Mar 2012 #32
GARBAGE!!! PamW Mar 2012 #33
Right on schedule... kristopher Mar 2012 #34
Your misunderstandings are not my false claims. PamW Mar 2012 #28
Storm van Leeuwen's analysis is solid. kristopher Mar 2012 #30
FUNNY!!! PamW Mar 2012 #35
Mmmmmmm, liquified natural gas! NickB79 Mar 2012 #10
That's what happen when you choose poorly and have to go back to square one. kristopher Mar 2012 #11
If the other 1999 reactors are not at risk of the same event occurring to them NickB79 Mar 2012 #13
It would be obvious to everyone that they would be at risk. kristopher Mar 2012 #17
If the other reactors are not at risk of the same event, why would everyone be at risk? NickB79 Mar 2012 #18
If you think that tap dancing is convincing to anyone you are mistaken. kristopher Mar 2012 #20
Do you ever get tired of putting words in people's mouths, kris? NickB79 Mar 2012 #21
You've been promoting and defending nuclear for years. kristopher Mar 2012 #24
yup - when did LNG become a renewable resource? dbackjon Mar 2012 #14

madokie

(51,076 posts)
1. Nuclear energy as we've come to know it is on its way out
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 07:26 AM
Mar 2012

whether anyone here wants to admit that or not. They can't exist on a level playing field with other just as clean or cleaner power sources. By the time that a nuke plant is built the amount of co2 spewed into our atmosphere because of that construction is enormous and takes a long time to just get back to parity.

shut the fuckers down NOW!

PamW

(1,825 posts)
2. FABRICATION; as per usual
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 10:29 AM
Mar 2012

As always, you are FABRICATING "facts" to fit your purpose.

In reality, the carbon footprint for nuclear power plant construction is quite low.

From a study done for the Parliament of the United Kingdom:

http://www.parliament.uk/documents/post/postpn268.pdf

See Figure 2 on page 3 for a comparison.

The carbon footprint for nuclear is slightly lower than that for wind,
and significantly lower than PV solar.

All the towers for wind turbines and heliostats means lots of steel;
which is what emits CO2 in the production process.

Nuclear power has steel for reactor vessel, turbines, rebar; but
the bulk of the plant is concrete. The main source of CO2 emission
for nuclear, as stated was for fuel enrichment. That's because they
assume the current mix of generation technologies for the needed
electricity. That includes a lot of coal. However, if you use nuclear
reactors to produce that power exclusively; then the CO2 footprint
of nuclear can be reduced even further from the very low value it
has at present.

PamW

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
3. CO2 footprint for nuclear expected to rise to level of natural gas
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 10:48 AM
Mar 2012

As the high grade uranium ore is consumed, use once through uranium is still economically preferable to recycling. However as the grade of ore declines the associate CO2 emissions from fuel refining skyrocket to the level of natural gas.

The more plants we build the sooner that happens.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
4. BALONEY!!!
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 11:27 AM
Mar 2012

Kris,

The answer is so simple. Use nuclear generated electricity exclusively.

As stated in the UK Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology article;
it is the enrichment that is the major CO2 emission source because
it uses electricity.

If your electric demand for enrichment goes up; then just use nuclear generated
electricity.

http://www.british-energy.com/documents/carbon_footprint.pdf

NO WAY do you ever get to the level of gas or any other chemical fuel. Pound
for pound, nuclear generated energy is one MILLION times that which you get
from chemical. It's basic physics; the nuclear force binding energies are measured
in MeV - MILLIONS of electron-volts; while chemical binding energies are just in
electron volts.

Pound for pound; you get a MILLION times more energy from nuclear. Or equivalently,
for a given amount of energy; you use one MILLION-TH the fuel.

Contrary to your scientifically ill-informed contention; you never get to the level of gas.

PamW

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
5. LIVERWURST!!!
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 12:17 PM
Mar 2012

You are making yet another false claim.
From the analysis of the independent researcher that "blew the whistle" on nuclear industry CO2 emissions"

"...In this study we assumed all electric inputs to be produced by the nuclear system itself. In this way the results of the analysis are independent on place, time and local conditions. Consequently the CO2 emissions by the nuclear system solely result from burning fossil fuels (mainly diesel fuel) and from chemical reactions (e.g. in the cement production), directly related to the operation of the nuclear energy system.
In practice above convention would correspond with a steady state, a state in which the number of nuclear power plants remains constant and the number of plants under construction equals the number of plants being decommissioned. Figure C.4 represents the energy flows of the nuclear system in such a steady state."

Section C page 6
Nuclear power – the energy balance
Jan Willem Storm van Leeuwen

PamW

(1,825 posts)
6. MISUNDERSTANDING
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 12:31 PM
Mar 2012

Kris,

Once again you MISUNDERSTAND what you read due to your lack of scientific knowledge.

The Parliament POST study clearly states that enrichment is the largest source of CO2.

The energy expended by the diesel equipment used to build ANY plant is a small fraction
of the energy produced by the plant. Otherwise, why build the plant. The CO2 emissions
consequentially follow same.

QED ( Proven for the scientifically literate )

PamW

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
7. That is false.
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 12:40 PM
Mar 2012

It's just more of your self-serving pronuclear nonsense and distortion.

Where does the UK report deal with recovery of mid and low grade ores?
It doesn't.

Nuclear power – the energy balance by Jan Willem Storm van Leeuwen does.

In this study the CO2 emissions of the nuclear energy system are calculated exclusively as the combustion product of the fossil fuel inputs of the nuclear chain. Emissions of other greenhouse gases are not accounted for. We assumed a specific CO2 emission of all thermal inputs 75 gram CO2 per MJ(th), corresponding with diesel fuel. Most thermal inputs of the nuclear system may be diesel or a similar oil product. Above value can also be seen as an average CO2 intensity of a fossil fuel mix of coal, oil and natural gas. The energy inputs required to produce the fossil fuels for the nuclear chain are not included in this study.

The electric inputs of the nuclear system are subtracted from the electric output, as is explained above (see also Figure C.6). This convention, corresponding with a steady state of a world nuclear power supply, makes the nuclear CO2 emissions independent of local and time-related conditions.

Here we define the CO2 intensity ? as the ratio of the total CO2 emissions and the gross electricity output during the lifetime of the nuclear power plant.

Section C page 16

Dead_Parrot

(14,478 posts)
9. Realy Kris? van Leeuwen?
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 05:37 PM
Mar 2012

That's scraping the barrel a bit, isn't it?

[link:http://tinyurl.com/6mbmahz|
Here's a link] to the original for anyone who fancies a trip down memory lane

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
12. What a hoot you are.
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 07:37 PM
Mar 2012

First, I don't follow blind links from people I don't know. Second, no one has refuted van Leeuwen's work. All we've seen is the lobbying group for the nuclear industry put together a supposed rebuttal based on half-assed accounting of fuel use and ore grade at one of their mines. If such a rebuttal to work of van Leeuwen's caliber were presented by the American Petroleum instutute you'd never consider even reading it, much less accepting it as if it were gospel.

Dead_Parrot

(14,478 posts)
15. The link wasn't really for your benefit, kris
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 07:52 PM
Mar 2012

Since you've already got the images from that van Leeuwen interview uploaded to your photobucket account, I'm guessing it's nothing new to you. The linked rebuttal may be, but it's a safe bet you wouldn't learn anything from it.

Other readers, however, may be interested in seeing where you get this stuff.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
16. I got the graphs from his paper, not an interview.
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 07:58 PM
Mar 2012

I'm guessing you are yet again practicing character assassination since you really can't refute the fact that nuclear is not a workable solution to our GHG emissions problems.

Dead_Parrot

(14,478 posts)
19. Strange...
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 08:16 PM
Mar 2012

They turn up cropped to exactly that size in exactly one other place on the 'net. Must just be a stunning coincidence.

Rather that copy and paste vast chunks of text, I'll leave the curious to follow the links. I'm not including you in that group, so please don't feel pressured.

Dead_Parrot

(14,478 posts)
23. What, magic gas, 30yr lifetime and 82% capacity?
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 08:32 PM
Mar 2012

I think you need to look up 'physics'. You may learn something.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
25. BALONEY!!!
Thu Mar 22, 2012, 07:55 PM
Mar 2012

Last edited Fri Mar 23, 2012, 10:45 AM - Edit history (2)

Kris,

That old work by van Leeuwen has been refuted by legitimate scientists so many times I've lost count.

Here's one, courtesy of Scientific American:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-long-will-global-uranium-deposits-last

If the Nuclear Energy Agency (NEA) has accurately estimated the planet's economically accessible uranium resources, reactors could run more than 200 years at current rates of consumption.

Two technologies could greatly extend the uranium supply itself. Neither is economical now, but both could be in the future if the price of uranium increases substantially. First, the extraction of uranium from seawater would make available 4.5 billion metric tons of uranium—a 60,000-year supply at present rates. Second, fuel-recycling fast-breeder reactors, which generate more fuel than they consume, would use less than 1 percent of the uranium needed for current LWRs. Breeder reactors could match today's nuclear output for 30,000 years using only the NEA-estimated supplies.

Currently, the fuel cost for nuclear power is about 0.1% of total generating cost. If the fuel cost doubles ( a substantial increase ) in order to make seawater extraction and fast reactors economically feasible, that cost increase only increases the bottom line cost by 0.1%.

Of course, if we follow the option that I and other scientists favor of using fast reactors, like the IFR,
then we aren't limited to using only the fissile Uranium-235 which is only 0.7% of natural uranium.
With fast reactors, we can use fissionable Uranium-238 which is 99.3% of natural uranium.
Doing so increases our use of uranium by a factor of 1/0.007 or about 143.

Kris you have to stop considering anti-nukes as the ultimate experts; they are NOT.

If someone is an anti-nuke, Kris says they are an expert; but if they are a member of the National Academy of Science;
or other high scientific honor, then they are questionable shills.

PamW

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
26. I thought you said that he was wrong because you could use nuclear for the electricity inputs?
Thu Mar 22, 2012, 10:00 PM
Mar 2012

As shown, you were wrong then and you are wrong now. Perhaps you could have someone more literate read it to you.

Energy cliff
Looking at an isolated nuclear power plant, as the commercial owners do, the plant produces during its lifetime an x amount of electricity, which is sold to the consumers. In this study the lifetime gross electricity production is called Egrid.There’s hardly any awareness at the reactor site of the industrial processes needed to fabricate the fuel elements put into the reactor, let alone of the ore grade depence of the net energy produced by the nuclear system as a whole. With this study we try to generate insights into the worldwide and very-long-term aspects of nuclear power.

One of that insights is the ore grade dependency of the net energy production of the nuclear system. Figure G.16 illustrates that dependency. Energy security means, in our view, the security of freely useable energy not needed to construct, maintain and clean up the energy system alone. If energy security and climate control (greenhouse gases) are the real issues, the complete energy system shuld be considered. Not just the amount of electricity produced at a certain place.

Up until today, uranium has been extracted from easily mineable and rich uranium ores. The largest uranium resources of the world, however, exist in far leaner ores which are more difficult to mine than in the past. Today the world average uranium ore grade is around G = 0.15% UO8, on the verge of the energy cliff.

CO2 trap
The increase of the CO2 intensity of nuclear power with decreasing ore grade in rela- tion with the known recoverable uranium resources is illustrated by Figure G.18. Below grades of around 0.02% UO8 the nuclear CO2 intensity rapidly rises and surpasses the emission of gas-fired generation of electricity and effectively that of all fossil-fuelled power generation.
This diagram is called the ‘CO2 trap’. At low ore grades the CO2 intensity of nuclear power approaches that of fossil-fuelled power, eliminating the low-carbon profile of nuclear power.


Nuclear power - the energy balance
Jan Willem Storm van Leeuwen
Part G page 42-44

PamW

(1,825 posts)
27. WRONG AS ALWAYS!!
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 10:30 AM
Mar 2012

Kris,

You have to do some "critical thinking" to realize that when an anti-nuke activist writes a paper; they skew the paper to their own ends.

As the POST paper written for the UK parliament states, the majority of the energy usage in the preparation of nuclear fuel is not digging it out of the ground where they use diesel-powered machinery. The majority of the energy goes into the uranium extractment and enrichment processes. The factories that conduct these energy intensive operation run on electricity. However, these factories can be run on electricity from nuclear power.

The author van Leeuwen didn't take that into account, either because it runs counter to his predetermined conclusions, or he wasn't bright enough of to think of it. However, if you are worried about CO2 and the energy intensive portion of the fuel extraction process uses electricity from nuclear generation, that actual energy generation process at the reactor being CO2 emission free; then how can there be CO2 emitted as part of the uranium extraction process?

The use of nuclear-generated electricity in those operations just plain blows van Leeuwen and his predetermined conclusions apart.

In fact, to some extent that is what is done in the USA. The facilities that extract uranium and enrich it are Government-owned and are located in the service area of the TVA - the Tennessee Valley Authority, which is where the electricity for these energy intensive operations comes from. TVA owns 6 nuclear power plants ( Browns Ferry Units 1,2, and 3; Sequoyah Units 1, and 2, and Watts Barr ). So a good deal of the electricity that is used for these energy intensive operations, like running the Paducah Gaseous Diffusion Plant; comes from nuclear-generated electricity, courtesy of the TVA. The outputs of the reactor exceed that which is used for fuel extraction.

Electricity is fungible, and you can't say exactly which power plant the electricity came from if they are all hooked to the same grid. However, if we wanted to, we could provide a dedicated lines from the TVA reactors to the uranium extraction facilities so that we could definitively say that those operations were done with nuclear-generated electricity. Then we could definitively say that there was no CO2 emission due to the generation of the energy for the uranium extraction.

That would leave the only source of CO2 to be the small emissions from mining ( diesels ) and the CO2 that is emitted in making steel. As the POST report for the UK Parliament shows, the combination of these are LESS than the CO2 emission for PV Solar.

That's why the report from the Parliament Office of Science and Technology, which one certainly has to consider more authoritative than the ill-conceived rantings of some anti-nuke activist like van Leeuwen; shows that nuclear has the lowest carbon footprint of all the low-carbon technologies, including biomass, PV solar, and wind.

You can't argue with good science.

PamW


kristopher

(29,798 posts)
29. Wrong way Pam strikes again.
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:12 AM
Mar 2012

I asked you before and I'll ask you again, where in the UK report do they deal with the issue of declining ore quality?

van Leeuwen has accomplished a (book length) comprehensive analysis of the lifecycle net energy and carbon emissions output of the nuclear fleet. The method he used was peer reviewed in a previous work and his analysis goes far beyond anything the nuclear industry or the governments promoting it are willing to put to paper.

There has never been a rebuttal of his work except by the paid lobbying groups working for the nuclear industry.

If you have questions about where the specific inputs of fossil fuels are in the uranium fuel cycle, I'd suggest you do something completely alien to your nature - read the report by van Leeuwen.


One of that insights is the ore grade dependency of the net energy production of the nuclear system. Figure G.16 illustrates that dependency. Energy security means, in our view, the security of freely useable energy not needed to construct, maintain and clean up the energy system alone. If energy security and climate control (greenhouse gases) are the real issues, the complete energy system shuld be considered. Not just the amount of electricity produced at a certain place.

Up until today, uranium has been extracted from easily mineable and rich uranium ores. The largest uranium resources of the world, however, exist in far leaner ores which are more difficult to mine than in the past. Today the world average uranium ore grade is around G = 0.15% UO8, on the verge of the energy cliff.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
31. Asked and ANSWERED
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:35 AM
Mar 2012

Kris,

I provided you with a UK report which dealt with the issue of declining ore quality in post #25

http://www.british-energy.com/documents/carbon_footprint.pdf

but you evidently didn't read it, as always.

The van Leeuwen work has been rebutted and discredited by legitimate scientists.

I gave you a reference to Scientific American and the rebuttal by a Professor from University of Maryland.
I guess you consider University of Maryland as paid shills.

PamW

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
32. That's about as valid as a report from BP claiming petroleum has no external costs
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 12:57 PM
Mar 2012

You are yet again going to information provided by the company that makes money building and operating nuclear power plants. The analysis you offer basically amounts to "trust us, we keep good records and we wouldn't lie to you".

Your claim that any information critical of the nuclear industry that is produced by these top level professionals is a result of a pre-existing bias against nuclear is absurd on its face. It is an exact parallel to the claims of the fossil fuel industry and the claims they make about climate science.

The British Energy report does NOT deal with declining ore quality Pam. They gloss the issue over with a very incomplete, non-rigorous review of current claimed emissions and extrapolate from that to what they say would be worst case. They do not, in fact, explore the global picture and the impact of fleet consumption on "worst case", thus producing an analysis of exactly the sort that motivated van Leeuwen to do the work that he did.

We can cite the section in van Leeuwen Part G to make the point of how incomplete the offering by the nuclear power company is:

Em+m
Em+m is the energy input of the uranium extraction: the mining + milling processes (nrs 4a and 4b in Figure G.2). Em+m strongy depends on the ore grade and other physical parameters. Due to its exponential rise with decreasing ore grade, this energy input may be of major concern when the nuclear system has to be fed by poor uranium ores.
Em+m = Emining + Emilling eq G.1


Efront
Efront is the energy input of the three processes needed to fabricate nuclear fuel for the reactor from the natural uranium, as delivered by the mining industry. This group comprises conversion, enrichment and fuel element fabrication, nrs 3, 2 and 1 in the chain of Figure G.2 The energy input per Mg enriched uranium of this group is a con- stant factor in the energy balance of the reference nuclear system.
Efront = Econv + Eenrich + Efuel eq G.2



Eomr
Eomr is the energy needed to operate and maintain the nuclear power plant, including
the energy input of the major refurbishments required to keep the reactor safe and up to date (see also Part F5). In this study Eomr is assumed to have a constant value per reload period D, which has been introduced in Part C2.

Econ
Econ is the energy input of the construction of the nuclear power plant, see Part F4.
This amount of energy is part of the ‘energy debt’, which has been introduced in Part C4 and which will be discussed in more detail in Part G6. The construction energy is assumed to be balanced with the energy production of the reactor.

Ewaste
Ewaste is the energy required to pack and sequester the radioactive operational waste
from the processes of the front end of the chain (see also Part E2). For a given amount of prepared nuclear fuel this energy input has a fixed value. This group comprises three processes: reconversion of depleted uranium (nr 5 in Figure G.2), packing of the operational waste including reconverted depleted uranium (processes nrs 7a + 7b) and the definitive sequestration of the waste in a safe geological repository (processes nrs 8a + 8b).

In Figure G.2 the reconversion of depleted uranium and the disposal of it has been kept separated, because these processes are not practiced up until today. In fact the energy input related to depleted uranium contributes to the energy debt (see Part G6). Of all waste handling processes, only the packing of the operational waste, process 7b, is actually current practice in the nuclear industry.
Ewaste = Ereconv + Epack + Eseques eq G.3



Espent
Espent is the energy required to handle spent fuel: for interim storage (nr 10), packing (nr 11) and definitive sequestration (nr 12) in a safe geological repository. None of these processes are operational today, so the value of this energy input has to be esti- mated and consequently has a large margin of uncertainty. Espent has a fixed value for a given amount of spent fuel.
Espent = Einterim + Epack + Eseques eq G.4

Edism
Edism is the energy required for decommissioning and dismantling the nuclear reactor after final shutdown (process 6 in Figure G.2) plus packaging and sequestration of the radioactive parts of the nuclear power plant (processes 7c + 8c). In Part F6 this chain of processes is called the ‘reactor-to-grave sequence’. The dismantling waste is assumed to be packed in similar containers like operational waste and to be sequestered in the geologic repository along with the operational waste.
Edism = Edecom + Edismantl + Epack + Eseques eq G.5

In this study a fixed value of Edism is assumed, independent on the operational lifetime. For more details see Part F6. In the following calculations the energy requirements for construction and the reactor- to-grave sequence are added to Ec+d:
Ec+d = Econ + Edism eq G.6


The sum Ec+d is called the ‘energy debt’ in previous parts of this study. As it happens to be, more unavoidable processes related to the generation of nuclear power are being postponed to an unspecified future. For that reason the concept of the energy debt is more complicated than introduced in Part C4 and therefore will be discussed in more detail in Part G6.


Ereclam
Ereclam is the energy required for the reclamation of the uranium mine area (see also Part E2). This energy inputs depends on the ore grade of the uranium ore being mined, in addition to other factors, such as the depth and geology of the deposit.


Would you like to see the specificity with which he details and assess each of those inputs?

In reviewing data from the nuclear industry and its captured government and academic community an ethicist of unimpeachable character finds that the practice of "data trimming" is a widespread practice use by those entities to make and publish false claims regarding the capabilities of nuclear power.

Even when they consider GHGE from most nuclear-fuel-cycle stages, climate-necessity (nuclear) proponents typically trim nuclear-GHGE data through unrealistic assumptions, e.g., considering only nuclear-GHGE associated with higher-grade, not lower-grade, uranium ores. Yet cleaner, higher-grade ores are nearly gone [17]. Nuclear-fuel cycles using ten-times-less-concentrated ore (\0.01 percent yellow- cake) have total GHGE equal roughly to those for natural-gas-fuel cycles; all other things being equal, lower-grade-uranium-ore nuclear cycles release 12 times more GHGE than solar cycles, and 49 times more than wind cycles [18]. Some scientists even claim that low-grade-uranium-ore cycles could require more energy than they produce [14], [19].
Nuclear energy may be not only less effective than wind/solar for GHGE- avoidance, but also detrimental to it. UK business-school studies show capital- intensive, heavily-subsidized nuclear plants undermine funding for efficiency/ renewables and delay more-effective technologies for GHGE-avoidance [20].

Page 21
Sci Eng Ethics (2009) 15:19–23 DOI 10.1007/s11948-008-9097-y
Data Trimming, Nuclear Emissions, and Climate Change
Kristin Sharon Shrader-Frechette

PamW

(1,825 posts)
33. GARBAGE!!!
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 04:27 PM
Mar 2012

Would you like to see the specificity with which he details and assess each of those inputs?
============

Kris,

I've read his reports and so have my collegues; and we consider his work as CRAP!!!

We don't have to accept the industry reports as solid, because we have the data and the ability to do the analysis ourselves.
When we do; we confirm the industry reports.

OH PULEEEZZ - not Schrader-Frechette again.
Do you want to BORE me to death with her misunderstandings of science???

Yes - sure, all the scientists and academics are lying. Only the know-nothing anti-nukes have anything correct.
GEESH.

van Leeuwen didn't even consider fast spectrum reactors.
We have plenty of uranium already processed and on hand if we can burn Uranium-238.

van Leeuwen assumes that when "easy fuels" are depleted that the nuclear industry does the stupidest and most polluting course to solve the problem. See where his analysis goes if you do something intelligent.

PamW

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
34. Right on schedule...
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 05:24 PM
Mar 2012

You didn't know the most basic information about his work (see thread above) it is pretty obvious that your appeal to your supposed authority is bunk.

van Leeuwen and Shrader are well regarded, highly qualified academics. Contradicting the claims of a corrupt industry is hardly a disqualifying act.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
28. Your misunderstandings are not my false claims.
Fri Mar 23, 2012, 11:02 AM
Mar 2012

However, I can see how you got mislead by van Leeuwen.

His whole case revolves around the claim that CO2 emission go up as the quality of uranium ore goes down.

However, one of his sources of CO2 emissions is chemical reactions, particularly cement production. However, how much CO2 is emitted in producing cement to make the power plant is independent of the quality of the ore. You don't have to make more cement for your reactor shielding because you have a lower quality fuel ore.

The other principle CO2 source is for the steel. However, again the amount of steel one needs is not dependent on, and doesn't scale with the lowering of the ore quality.

The only part that scales with the quality of the ore is the energy for the mining machinery. Even there; many of the big shovels that are used for mining run on electricity. That is certainly true for the big coal mining shovels. Again, if we provide the shovel with nuclear-generated electricity, we can eliminate the CO2 emission for that part; leaving only the trucks that cart the ore. Perhaps we could develop electric vehicle trucks, as long as we are bringing in electricity for the big shovels. We could haul the fuel on electric trains instead of diesel-electric locomotives.

If van Leeuwen had a little imagination, he could see how one could devise a CO2 free nuclear fuel cycle. However, doing that is not in the mandate for the anti-nuke propagandists.

PamW

PamW

(1,825 posts)
35. FUNNY!!!
Tue Mar 27, 2012, 10:19 AM
Mar 2012

Storm van Leeuwen's analysis is solid.
====================

That assessment from someone who doesn't know about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, about Conservation of Energy, about......

We have someone who repeatedly shows that his lack of education in the sciences is manifest; and now he gives us his assurances on the quality of a work that legitimate scientists have thoroughly discredited.

Nice comedy routine; what do you do for an encore?

PamW

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
11. That's what happen when you choose poorly and have to go back to square one.
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 07:32 PM
Mar 2012

Imagine the world with 2000 reactors and suddenly a city like Tokyo, Chicago or New York gets the full brunt of a major event. What do you think is going to happen to the other 1999 reactors?

NickB79

(19,257 posts)
13. If the other 1999 reactors are not at risk of the same event occurring to them
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 07:40 PM
Mar 2012

Then rationally they should be kept online.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
17. It would be obvious to everyone that they would be at risk.
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 08:01 PM
Mar 2012

Since there are superior alternatives you simply cannot justify nuclear with the claim that it is an effective way to address climate change.

http://www.lkyspp.nus.edu.sg/docs/fac/benjamin-sovacool/Published%20Papers/Sovacool-Problem%20With%20Portfolio.pdf

NickB79

(19,257 posts)
18. If the other reactors are not at risk of the same event, why would everyone be at risk?
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 08:12 PM
Mar 2012

Your question specifically asked what the appropriate response should be to one reactor out of 2000 having an unspecified event. There are a whole range of hypothetical events that could befall a reactor. If it were an inherent design flaw that was found in all 2000 reactors, then they would need to be shut down. However, if a reactor were to fall into a massive sink-hole that just suddenly opened up, other reactors not built in areas with a risk of sinkholes wouldn't need to be shut down. If a landslide crushed the containment dome of a reactor in Colorado, reactors in North Dakota are probably not at the same risk.

Saying one unspecified event is grounds to shut them all down, when there might be no risk the same event would befall the other reactors, is knee-jerk behavior on a grand scale.


"Since there are superior alternatives you simply cannot justify nuclear with the claim that it is an effective way to address climate change. "

Hmmm, now where in my posts did I claim that?

NickB79

(19,257 posts)
21. Do you ever get tired of putting words in people's mouths, kris?
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 08:24 PM
Mar 2012

Again, where did I say nuclear was the solution for global warming?

As it stands, you're shadow-boxing with yourself, while the adults in the room just sit back and stare......

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
24. You've been promoting and defending nuclear for years.
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 08:42 PM
Mar 2012

Your approach of denial at this point is about as far from mature as it is possible to be.

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