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hunter

(38,312 posts)
Thu Jan 7, 2016, 01:55 AM Jan 2016

Orfordness lighthouse 'perilously' close to falling into sea

The lighthouse was built in 1792.



The distance from the lighthouse to the shoreline in 2005 was around 20m (65ft)



By November 2015 the distance from the lighthouse to the sea had halved to just 10m (32ft) after shingle defences were eroded by high tides and winds

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-suffolk-35231897


Come gather ’round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You’ll be drenched to the bone
If your time to you is worth savin’
Then you better start swimmin’ or you’ll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin’

http://www.bobdylan.com/us/songs/times-they-are-changin
11 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Orfordness lighthouse 'perilously' close to falling into sea (Original Post) hunter Jan 2016 OP
Uh, guys? Water always wins Warpy Jan 2016 #1
Wow, didn't realise that any states had actually been sensible about that! Nihil Jan 2016 #4
Well, that's why teabaggers call it the People's Republic of Mass. Warpy Jan 2016 #8
Many states have similar rules, even Texas, In fact Massachuset permit private beaches, unlike Texas happyslug Jan 2016 #9
Good for MA--hope other states follow suit. John Stossel had raccoon Jan 2016 #6
Oh no! 2naSalit Jan 2016 #2
You're probably thinking of Belle Tout, on the cliff at Beachy Head muriel_volestrangler Jan 2016 #10
Goodness... 2naSalit Jan 2016 #11
What is rarely talked about awoke_in_2003 Jan 2016 #3
This particular case is not about global warming LouisvilleDem Jan 2016 #5
That's not the point. hunter Jan 2016 #7

Warpy

(111,261 posts)
1. Uh, guys? Water always wins
Thu Jan 7, 2016, 02:50 AM
Jan 2016

Mass. passed one of the most sensible laws about that: if you own a house on the shore and a combination of storms and erosion claim it, you need to rebuild elsewhere. You won't be permitted to rebuild on that part of the shore. That prevents people from filing sizable insurance claims every few years when another house gets swallowed up by the ocean during the all too frequent storms.

 

Nihil

(13,508 posts)
4. Wow, didn't realise that any states had actually been sensible about that!
Thu Jan 7, 2016, 05:09 AM
Jan 2016

> Mass. passed one of the most sensible laws about that: if you own a house
> on the shore and a combination of storms and erosion claim it, you need
> to rebuild elsewhere.

Maybe there *is* an element of sanity left in some places!


Warpy

(111,261 posts)
8. Well, that's why teabaggers call it the People's Republic of Mass.
Thu Jan 7, 2016, 05:20 PM
Jan 2016

Occasionally we elect people who look at something and say "this is nuts!" and do something about it.

That's one thing I miss out here in NM.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
9. Many states have similar rules, even Texas, In fact Massachuset permit private beaches, unlike Texas
Thu Jan 7, 2016, 10:16 PM
Jan 2016

Last edited Thu Jan 7, 2016, 11:10 PM - Edit history (1)

The Common Law Rule was the beach was the sea and no one had any property right to the sea. Anyone could use the beach, it was public property open to anyone to uss.

Under the Common Law, property rights ends on the high tide mark of any beach (Please note Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maine and Virginia uses the low tide mark, and these rules preceded the adoption of the US Constitution, other states the tendency is to use the high Tide Mark or a variation of it).

Given the beech is an area to salty for land plants to survive on, and to dry for sea plants, you end up with the sand beaches are so while known for. Such beaches are NEVER private property, even if someone has a deed for that piece of property (Except in the states of Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maine and Virginia).

Thus, even in Texas, if the ocean washed away the beach in front of your home, and makes your home on a "wet beach", any part of your home on the "Wet Beach" is open to the public, I.e. No longer private property. The test is simple, on a day when it has not rained for a few days and you dig into the sand and find water, it is a "wet beach". Most "Wet Beaches" are only sand, you do get some types of grass on a "Dry Beech".

Any part of a building on the beach must be torn down and moved inland or taken to a dump. This is true even of buildings that have existed for decades, if the beach moves and the building is now on the beach, any property right to the property is destroyed.

This rule pops up after most hurricanes that hit the Gulf Coast, as Texans affected by the rule yell and scream that the government is taking their property. The government simply says, we never sold the right to the sea and under the US Constitution anything to do with the sea comes under Admiralty law and under the US Constitution Admiralty law is solely under Federal Law. Thus you NEVER owned any land that becomes a "Wet Beach".

The US Supreme Court has long rule Admiralty law is under its sole jurisdiction, but State law sets property rights. Thus State and Federal law come into play in any coastal development. The Federal Government concern is maintaining the right to travel including not only cargo, but people. Historically beaches were used to unload cargo, but that is just not done today, but the fact it is not done does not mean that right has been abolished.

On the other hand the Supreme Court has long ruled that the edges of waterways and beaches are within the sole control of the States, thus the Low Tide rule in Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maine and Virginia.

Given most states call beaches public property, we have had little disputes between Federal and State law as to beaches, for most states agreed beaches can never be private property except in limited use as docks. Most docks were public in nature till the late 1800s when cities permitted private companies to build private docks for use by that owners private ships. Such docks came to be viewed as private property, but as a narrow exception to the general rule water ways were open to the public and that included any structures over the waterways, including piers and docks.

Some people have tired to expand that exception but most states have rejected such expansions on the grounds the docks were needed for trade, private beaches inhibit trade for it was still legal to unload legal cargo on any beach and a private beach interferes with the right and thus may violate Federal Law (All States that use the the Low Tide Mark, did so from Colonial days onward, no state admitted after 1789 uses the Low Tide Mark).

Just a comment why beaches can not be private property and thus no structures can remain on breaches. Please note most beaches are "Wet Beaches"



http://www.beachapedia.org/Beach_Access

To understand the above, here are the definitions of Dry and Wet Beaches

Dry Beach:
Low moisture content in sand above water Table
- no water in sand at surface

essentially no infiltration of rain, When it rain, the water will flows down to the Water table and the surface quickly dries and thus the following:
- no surface runoff after rain
- no ponding of water

Wet Beach:

high moisture content in sand above water table
- moist or wet sand at surface

Rain will infiltration to Water Table (i.e. water will drain into Water Table), but the water table is so near the surface that water will tend to do the following for the water has to go someplace and since the water table is so high, the rain water can NOT sink into the ground: Thus on a Wet beach you see:
- surface runoff after rain
- ponding of water

https://wasagawestbeachassociation.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/wet_vs_dry_beach_dr-_allan_crowe_20aug2009.pdf


The mean high tide line is actually the arithmetic average of high-water heights observed by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) over an 18.6-year Metonic cycle.

http://www.beachapedia.org/Beach_Access


The coastal states of Delaware, Maine, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania and Virginia use the mean low tide line rather than the high tide line to demark the boundary between private and public property. These states do not own the intertidal zone of their beaches, and therefore private property owners can own land all the way down to the mean low tide line.

http://www.beachapedia.org/Beach_Access


In simple terms, you can own a private beach is Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maine and Virginia but NOT elsewhere.

Texas Constitutional Amendment No. 9, “The constitutional amendment to protect the right of the public, individually and collectively, to access and use the public beaches bordering the seaward shore of the Gulf of Mexico” appeared on the November 3, 2009 state ballot and was passed overwhelmingly by the voters. This should prevent the approval of any future legislation inconsistent with the Texas Open Beaches Act.

http://www.beachapedia.org/Beach_Access

raccoon

(31,111 posts)
6. Good for MA--hope other states follow suit. John Stossel had
Thu Jan 7, 2016, 07:08 AM
Jan 2016

a beach house that was destroyed by a hurricane or erosion or something.
Insurance paid him for it.

I don't know about you, but I'm totally against this kind of "welfare" for John Stossel and his ilk.


2naSalit

(86,613 posts)
2. Oh no!
Thu Jan 7, 2016, 03:48 AM
Jan 2016

Is that the one (of many?) that was moved about ten or more years ago?

It's sad, I love lighthouses. I guess the low lying ones will be going soon.

2naSalit

(86,613 posts)
11. Goodness...
Fri Jan 8, 2016, 01:27 PM
Jan 2016

First, I hadn't noticed that the OP was about a lighthouse in the UK. I was thinking of one in the US, in one of Carolinas I think, that is on a sandy coastal plane that is shifting regularly which had been moved back from the shore several years ago.

I am glad for this information, I have considered what might be happening across the Atlantic, especially when I see news of the storms that have been passing over the islands the past few years. I grew up along the coasts, mostly in coastal towns in New England so I have this lifelong interest in lighthouses having grown up around them.

Thanks for the links!

 

awoke_in_2003

(34,582 posts)
3. What is rarely talked about
Thu Jan 7, 2016, 04:13 AM
Jan 2016

is that the US Navy is studying global warming. A surface rise endangers all of their current ports

LouisvilleDem

(303 posts)
5. This particular case is not about global warming
Thu Jan 7, 2016, 05:40 AM
Jan 2016

The threat to the lighthouse is due to erosion, not rising sea levels.

hunter

(38,312 posts)
7. That's not the point.
Thu Jan 7, 2016, 01:35 PM
Jan 2016

The point is we'll be seeing more and more of this sort of thing, from both rising seas and increased wave activity.

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