Hydrogen-powered forklifts gaining prominence

[nationalize the fed]

Some warehouses have already shifted to hydrogen-powered forklifts; technology is cleaner, more efficient and as safe as lead-acid batteries, says senior engineer.

Tim Alamenciak Mon Oct 20 2014 TheStar.com

Hydrogen fuel cells are proving to be a viable replacement for lead-acid batteries used in forklifts at warehouses, according to Keith Wipke, a senior engineer at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in the United States.

The technology works by replacing traditional lead-acid batteries in forklifts and other equipment with hydrogen fuel cells that can be refilled by on-site tanks. “The fuel cell reacts hydrogen with oxygen from the air (and) that produces pure water, heat and electricity. It behaves much like a battery,” said Wipke.

Canadian Tire plans to implement hydrogen-powered vehicles, and potentially hydrogen production, at a controversial 1.5 million-square-foot distribution warehouse currently under construction in Caledon.

Wipke said many warehouses opt to have their hydrogen shipped in and stored in liquid form on-site, where it can be protected by concrete posts and fences, like propane tanks are protected at gas stations. Other facilities may choose to manufacture the hydrogen on-site through one of two main methods: electrolysis or steam methane reforming...
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/10/20/hydrogenpowered_forklifts_gaining_prominence.html

Related: Air Liquide Installs Hydrogen Forklifts at its Supply Chain Platform in Vatry, France

[NYC_SKP]

1. Not more efficient than modern battery technology, but very good for forklifts, large fleets.

.

This works well for large distribution centers because several vehicles can take advantage of one H2 generator and compressor.

However, it takes electricity to make that hydrogen that is then converted to electricity, a scenario of energy transformations less efficient than electricity to battery to motor.

[nationalize the fed]

2. Hydrogen is a better battery

and anyone can make it

Charging a battery is a process which converts electrical energy into chemical energy, and discharging it converts that stored chemical energy back to electrical energy. This process is exactly equivalent (in terms of thermodynamic efficiency) to using electricity to make hydrogen, and then later using that hydrogen to make electricity. The fundamental underlying efficiencies of a BEV compared to an FCV are essentially the same.

The ONLY real difference is that using hydrogen and fuel cells it is possible to transport the chemically-stored energy (in the form of hydrogen gas) about the place, store it in a tank, and rapidly re-fuel a vehicle with it. This is not possible with the contents of a charged battery.

Finally, if you need a greater range with a adequately-powered FCV one need only increase the storage capacity ... add another hydrogen tank or two to the car ... which is far, far more easy to do than to increase the battery capacity by an equivalent factor. reddit.com/u/hal2k1

http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/2cgpsl/vehicle_tech_of_the_near_future_what_are_the/

link to comment

http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/2cgpsl/vehicle_tech_of_the_near_future_what_are_the/cjfnhux

The Hydrogen Revolution is under way. Next year at this time "Fuel Cell" will be a household word. No one can stop it. No one.

Japan Set to Become ‘Hydrogen Society’: Reports
http://en.ria.ru/society/20141013/194026716/Japan-Set-to-Become-Hydrogen-Society-Reports.html


In this July 14, 2014 photo, a Toyota fuel cell hybrid vehicle is refueled from a mobile hydrogen station at the Ministery of Economy, Trade and Industry in Tokyo.
Note the Solar panels on the H2 truck

[NYC_SKP]

3. "Note the Solar panels on the H2 truck "

This comment kind of reveals how little you know about energy.

At best, those modules on the truck might have a total output of 1,000 watts, they aren't making the hydrogen in the truck and if you think they are, you have been deceived.

They might produce enough power to create enough H2 to run a small 1/24th scale car for 100 scale miles per day.

[NYC_SKP]

5. Splain this graphic:

[OKIsItJustMe]

4. Actually there are a number of advantages

https://share.sandia.gov/news/resources/news_releases/hydrogen_forklifts/

[font face=Serif]April 15, 2014
[font size=5]Low-cost, hydrogen-powered forklifts with rapid refueling, zero emissions coming soon[/font]

[font size=3]LIVERMORE, Calif.— Zero-emission hydrogen fuel cell systems soon could be powering the forklifts used in warehouses and other industrial settings at lower costs and with faster refueling times than ever before, courtesy of a partnership between Sandia National Laboratories and Hawaii Hydrogen Carriers (HHC).

The goal of the project is to design a solid-state hydrogen storage system that can refuel at low pressure four to five times faster than it takes to charge a battery-powered forklift, giving hydrogen a competitive advantage over batteries for a big slice of the clean forklift market. The entire U.S. forklift market was nearly $33 billion in 2013, according to Pell Research.

“Once you understand how these forklifts operate, the fuel cell advantage is clear,” said Sandia’s project manager Joe Pratt.

Refueling hydrogen fuel cell powered forklifts takes less than three minutes compared to the hours of recharging needed for battery-powered forklifts, Pratt said. Consequently, fuel cell-powered forklifts are able to operate continuously for eight or more hours between fills.

Currently, companies using battery-powered forklifts need to purchase three battery packs for each forklift to ensure continuous operation. They also need to set aside warehouse space for battery recharging.

...[/font][/font]

Now, let's say you have a supply of natural gas. You could burn it, to produce electricity, to charge batteries, or... you could reform it to produce hydrogen to power a fuel cell. (Which do you suppose is more efficient?)

[NYC_SKP]

6. As I said, very good for forklifts and large fleets.

The devil is in the details: are they producing the H2 on site? Or are they using other centralized NG reforming facilities, and are all the details of transport, etc., factored in?

No doubt that reforming is more efficient than thermal plant generation to electricity to be used in electrolysis. http://energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/natural-gas-reforming

But the OP does two things: They suggest that H2 is the future of private transportation and they suggested above that solar PV might be used.

I am pretty certain that H2 will not replace the gas station model, we don't want that and shouldn't want that because it perpetuates the current for profit model and the fuel sales monopoly.

Second, Natural Gas is still a finite resource and demand is growing at a frightening rate, it's clear that an H2 economy based on NG is not sustainable, so why bother?

[OKIsItJustMe]

7. Hydrogen makes good sense for storing energy from intermittent sources (like solar and wind)

http://prod.sandia.gov/techlib/access-control.cgi/2011/114845.pdf

[NYC_SKP]

8. It does indeed, I proposed it years ago, but was by no means the first to do so.

Not by a long shot. I like hydrogen, and I have a number of products of a smaller scale made by Horizon, one of the vps is a friend of mine and it was he who convinced me that there is a future for them.

But that future is not in personal transportation. And there is a lot of misinformation being presented this season that is probably going to hurt the industry in the end.

I support hydrogen for storage, grid stabilization, remote power supply, and for fleet vehicles and a few other transportation applications.

I don't not, however, think it's competitive with BEVs and I feel that eliminating the need for a new vehicle fueling infrastructure will be something that will be for the better for the average driver.

[OKIsItJustMe]

9. I think the "filling station" model will still be used…

Whether it is a hydrogen station or a Tesla Supercharger station, they have a role to play.

However, a hydrogen station will completely fill a car faster than a Supercharger will completely charge a battery.

A hydrogen system in a car, suitable for driving hundreds of miles on a tank is smaller and lighter than a battery capable of the same range.

There's no need for a fleet of hydrogen tankers. Anywhere there is a supply of electricity and water (or natural gas) you can have a hydrogen filling station.

http://www.h2logic.com/

[NYC_SKP]

10. Surely you aren't suggesting that a supply of electricity > H2 is efficient.

Speed of refill is not the end-all of objectives, freedom from (or relative freedom) from middlemen and monopolies and fossil fuels are more desirable ends.

Electricity, even from renewables to H2, then compression, then back to electricity is simply not efficient, electricity to modern battery storage to electricity is by comparison.

If speed is the issue, then maybe we should consider swappable batteries for those in a hurry or on that rare long trip.

Most other personal vehicular trips can do just fine with even a level one charger, and level twos and threes can pretty easily be set up at work, home, and the nearest Starbucks or 7-11.

I did a 500kW solar plant and made five level 2 chargers a requirement for the contract, it was not a big deal to throw those Clipper Creek heads in.

And, really, for most drivers a 15 amp charge while at work and after work at home will pretty much manage all but the really long 100+ mile commutes, which should be done by mass transit or carpool anyway.

[OKIsItJustMe]

11. Surely you aren't suggesting that efficiency is the only metric of practicality…

On the other hand, as I mentioned, assuming you're starting out with natural gas (which makes up a growing segment of our electric supply) it is more efficient to reform that, and use it in a fuel cell, than it is to burn it to generate electricity to charge a battery.

I think BEV's are best for short-range commuter/town cars.