Battery-Stored Solar Power Sparks Backlash From Utilities

[xchrom]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-07/battery-stored-solar-power-sparks-backlash-from-utilities.html

California’s three biggest utilities are sparring with their own customers about systems that store energy from the sun, opening another front in the battle that’s redefining the mission of electricity generators.

Edison International (EIX), PG&E Corp. and Sempra Energy (SRE) said they’re putting up hurdles to some battery backups wired to solar panels because they can’t be certain the power flowing back to the grid from the units is actually clean energy.

The dispute threatens the state’s $2 billion rooftop solar industry and indicates the depth of utilities’ concerns about consumers producing their own power. People with rooftop panels are already buying less electricity, and adding batteries takes them closer to the day they won’t need to buy from the local grid at all, said Ben Peters, a government affairs analyst at Mainstream Energy Corp., which installs solar systems.

“The utilities clearly see rooftop solar as the next threat,” Peters said from his office in Sunnyvale, California. “They’re trying to limit the growth.”

[ejpoeta]

1. that's a shame. I would think it would be helpful

to the overload problems.

[PamW]

3. One might think that...

One might think that; but the utilities have a point.

What happens if the AC waveform that the inverters from the batteries are sending back to the grid is out of phase with grid?

Think of an extreme case in which the voltage from the inverters is 180 degrees out of phase with the voltage from the grid; that would be cancelling.

The inverters may not be 180 degrees out of phase; but depending on the quality of the inverters, they may be out of phase to a lesser degree; and so would be exacerbating the problem in an overload.

It's akin to the problem where people have backup generators for their homes. If you have such a generator, you have to install disconnect switches. If the lines in the grid need repairs, the utility will disconnect the lines from their generators, so the linemen can handle them, safely. However, if you have a home backup generator or batteries with inverters that are attached to your home wiring, which is still attached to the grid; then the linemen are in danger from the current produced by your generator.

So just putting power back into the grid isn't always helpful.

Perhaps we can have the utility certify a particular brand(s) / model(s) of inverter that are of sufficient quality that they meet the standards for the quality of power that the utility wishes to maintain on their grid.

PamW

[kristopher]

4. It has nothing to do with any of that.

These are fully grid integrated systems.


The only reason the utilities have for their actions is to protect their revenue stream.

This is the reason they are trying to figure out how to make solar more expensive:
Solar costs are down 99% since 1977

[PamW]

6. I had to explain reactive power...

Last edited Tue Oct 8, 2013, 06:32 PM - Edit history (3)

I had to explain "reactive power" which is "BAD" power that can cause voltage collapse on a power line as per Prof. Sauer of the University of Illinois, presented courtesy of the University of Wisconsin:

http://www.pserc.wisc.edu/.../special.../Sauer_Reactive_Power_Sep_2003.pdf?

Or from the thesis of a University of Wisconsin student:

http://www.ece.wisc.edu/~dobson/PAPERS/luMSnofigs.pdf

The wiring of a power grid is not as simple as just connections between devices.

One of the chief concerns is whether generators on the grid are synced and are temporally accurate enough to prevent phase drift.

Imagine, instead of electric distribution; we were talking about water distribution in an arid area. Many people might have large pools in their back yards that could collect rainwater. Suppose we were going to avail ourselves of their water collection capacity by allowing them to pump water that they've collected into the water distribution system. Might not the local water district have some misgivings about allowing people to pump water into the distribution system? They might be concerned about the quality of the water that goes into the system. However, when this is pointed out as a legitimate concern; suppose someone pooh-poohs the concern, and states that the water district is only concerned about its "revenue stream", and that water quality is a red herring. All the plumbing used is "fully integrated".

Now tell us again; where did you get your degree in Electrical Engineering????

PamW

[kristopher]

7. You mean you struggled to understand reactive power and its implications ...

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/112750188#post13


And here is a blast from your past:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=115&topic_id=256645#258302

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=115&topic_id=256645#258337

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x258338

[LiberalEsto]

2. They should have invested in, and developed solar power years ago

and now they're twisting laws to compensate for their own lack of foresight.

[ConcernedCanuk]

5. If you got solar - you got batteries!

.
.
.

Well.

If ya don't - which is possible - you got nothing when the sun ain't shining.

period.

Also, you have to have a system to shut down the solar when the sun is producing more solar energy that you are consuming,

and that seems a bit of a waste to me.

I had neighbors that were totally solar, never wanted to be hooked up to the grid - ergo no hassles.

also, I lived in a trailer for years with no mainstream hydro, solar and a generator were my only sources for electricity.

Without batteries, I could have not stored electricity for night lights or other uses.

I now own a decent home with hydro, and will be putting in solar as I can afford it -

I will definitely NOT tie it into the grid to make/save a few bucks -

WHY???

cuz then they cannot tell me what the fuck to do!!

CC