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xchrom

(108,903 posts)
Wed Oct 31, 2012, 12:17 PM Oct 2012

Sandy Devastating, But Not Surprising, Say Climate Experts

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/10/31-0

***SNIP



Euractiv adds:

Last month, EU Climate Action Commissioner Connie Hedegaard wrote that "formerly one-off extreme weather episodes seem to be becoming the new normal”.

She noted that:

The last summer was the hottest on record in the United States;
Central and Eastern Europe also suffered record high temperatures;
The United Kingdom experienced it wettest-ever summer;
Northern India endured its heaviest rainfalls;
The US and East Africa were hit by their worst-ever droughts.
Arctic summer sea ice also shrank to its smallest recorded level in September.

Hedegaard’s office declined to comment on any potential link between Hurricane Sandy and climate change. But Kristalina Georgieva, the EU's humanitarian aid and crisis response commissioner, said in a statement: "Hurricane Sandy is yet another example of the increasing intensity and frequency of natural disasters."
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Sandy Devastating, But Not Surprising, Say Climate Experts (Original Post) xchrom Oct 2012 OP
Spam deleted by bluesbassman (MIR Team) EconomyInCrisis Oct 2012 #1
Does it matter who we vote for in this issue? I don't think so. GliderGuider Oct 2012 #2
"Work for collapse?" You're joking, right? AverageJoe90 Oct 2012 #3
Nope. I'm actually serious. GliderGuider Oct 2012 #4
The problem is, how we do know that the polluters won't find some way..... AverageJoe90 Oct 2012 #5
They will. We can't stop them if they do. Fortunately, GliderGuider Oct 2012 #6
I wish that were true. AverageJoe90 Oct 2012 #7
I don't know where you get "optimistic" out of my views. GliderGuider Oct 2012 #8
Well, you did say that they'd stop being able to fuck things up pretty quickly after a collapse. AverageJoe90 Nov 2012 #9
The problem is that their ability to fuck things up will be part of what feeds the collapse. GliderGuider Nov 2012 #10
The only way they will be stopped, ... CRH Nov 2012 #11
And the only way to remove the consumer from the equation GliderGuider Nov 2012 #12
Absolutely Correct, ... ;-) GG. Hope all is well with you and yours. n/t CRH Nov 2012 #14
And how do you propose to do that? AverageJoe90 Nov 2012 #17
"I" don't propose to do anything. GliderGuider Nov 2012 #18
Okay then. AverageJoe90 Nov 2012 #19
We won't know for sure until it does happen. GliderGuider Nov 2012 #20
Maybe, I suppose. AverageJoe90 Nov 2012 #16
In the perfect world people would not separate themselves, ... CRH Nov 2012 #13
Well said! GliderGuider Nov 2012 #15
Back at ya, amigo ... CRH Nov 2012 #21
Oh so nice. GliderGuider Nov 2012 #22
Thank you. n/t CRH Nov 2012 #23
I was just thinking back to one of our first conversations in September GliderGuider Nov 2012 #24
It might even have been, you were less arrogant than me ignorant, ... CRH Nov 2012 #25
OK, that was pretty remarkable. GliderGuider Nov 2012 #26
 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
2. Does it matter who we vote for in this issue? I don't think so.
Wed Oct 31, 2012, 12:59 PM
Oct 2012

The overall situation is totally beyond political control. It's much better to take personal action at the lowest, closest, most personal level possible. Even well-meaning politicians can do nothing on these issues except lull us back to sleep.

Vote with actions, not ballots. Work for collapse.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
4. Nope. I'm actually serious.
Wed Oct 31, 2012, 05:10 PM
Oct 2012

The sooner this calliope crashes to the ground (no matter how unpleasing the sneezing and wheezing may become), the more likely it is that some level of natural resources will be left over to recreate small, stable, sustainable communities afterwards. If we keep chewing through he Earth's resources at the current rate, we'll have eaten it all within one single generation.

At the very least we should each ensure that we're doing nothing that might keep the this version of the Circus of Civilization going.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
5. The problem is, how we do know that the polluters won't find some way.....
Wed Oct 31, 2012, 06:06 PM
Oct 2012

To take advantage of the chaos which is sure to follow(at least to a point)?

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
6. They will. We can't stop them if they do. Fortunately,
Wed Oct 31, 2012, 08:56 PM
Oct 2012

Collapse will make even that impossible very quickly. The future will be nothing like the past.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
7. I wish that were true.
Wed Oct 31, 2012, 09:24 PM
Oct 2012

Last edited Wed Oct 31, 2012, 10:31 PM - Edit history (1)

But somehow, I doubt it. I'd like to be as optimistic as you are in that particular regard, but I'm pretty much convinced that they'll keep right on going and going until they are finally STOPPED in the unlikely event of a collapse. Because there will always be excuses on hand for them. Always.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
8. I don't know where you get "optimistic" out of my views.
Wed Oct 31, 2012, 11:10 PM
Oct 2012

Let me make it perfectly clear. I give you my vision of Pennsylvania after 30 years of fracking:



I think the polluters will keep on polluting even after social collapse, until they are finally stopped in their tracks by total economic collapse. It's how they do bidness, and they already own the institutions that we pray will stop them.

I also think you are clueless about how bad things can get, or how fast. Even worse you don't seem open to any ideas that challenge your preconceived notions of how you think the world works. Nigeria isn't so very far from Pennsylvania, in social evolutionary terms.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
9. Well, you did say that they'd stop being able to fuck things up pretty quickly after a collapse.
Thu Nov 1, 2012, 12:17 AM
Nov 2012

And I do find that to be optimistic. Because even if the extremely unlikely event of an absolute total collapse, economic or otherwise, does occur, I doubt it would stop them, at all.

I also think you are clueless about how bad things can get, or how fast.


What I do is look at the facts. And right now, things are not exactly rosy, that is true. And I don't doubt things will get worse.
But if you're thinking of a Mad Max scenario, or something similar, nothing really suggests that that's anything more than a remote possibility in the near future(I'm thinking within the next century or so), barring a Yellowstone eruption or Apophis hitting Earth or the breakout of thermonuclear WW3(all technically possible though unlikely).....at least as far as the West is concerned(Sub-Saharan Africa and the Mideast might be another story, though).

Even worse you don't seem open to any ideas that challenge your preconceived notions of how you think the world works.


Well if that was true, I'd still be an AGW skeptic then. But here's the thing: my view of the world did change.
 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
10. The problem is that their ability to fuck things up will be part of what feeds the collapse.
Thu Nov 1, 2012, 06:32 AM
Nov 2012

There's no need to call on the ghosts of Mel Gibson or Jellystone Park. Just read some science.

Planetary Boundaries

[center][/center]

Planetary boundaries is the central concept in an Earth system framework proposed by a group of Earth system and environmental scientists led by Johan Rockström from the Stockholm Resilience Centre and Will Steffen from the Australian National University. In 2009, the group proposed a framework of “planetary boundaries” designed to define a “safe operating space for humanity” for the international community, including governments at all levels, international organizations, civil society, the scientific community and the private sector, as a precondition for sustainable development. This framework is based on scientific research that indicates that since the Industrial Revolution, human actions have gradually become the main driver of global environmental change. The scientists assert that once human activity has passed certain thresholds or tipping points, defined as “planetary boundaries”, there is a risk of “irreversible and abrupt environmental change”. The scientists identified nine Earth system processes which have boundaries that, to the extent that they are not crossed, mark the safe zone for the planet. However, because of human activities some of these dangerous boundaries have already been crossed, while others are in imminent danger of being crossed.

The biogeochemist William Schlesinger queries whether thresholds are a good idea for pollutions at all. He thinks waiting until we near some suggested limit will just permit us to continue to a point where it is too late. "Management based on thresholds, although attractive in its simplicity, allows pernicious, slow and diffuse degradation to persist nearly indefinitely."

The hydrologist David Molden thinks planetary boundaries are a welcome new approach in the 'limits to growth' debate. "As a scientific organizing principle, the concept has many strengths (...) the numbers are important because they provide targets for policymakers, giving a clear indication of the magnitude and direction of change. They also provide benchmarks and direction for science. As we improve our understanding of Earth processes and complex inter-relationships, these benchmarks can and will be updated [...] we now have a tool we can use to help us think more deeply—and urgently—about planetary limits and the critical actions we have to take."

The ocean chemist Peter Brewer queries whether it is "truly useful to create a list of environmental limits without serious plans for how they may be achieved (...) they may become just another stick to beat citizens with. Disruption of the global nitrogen cycle is one clear example: it is likely that a large fraction of people on Earth would not be alive today without the artificial production of fertilizer. How can such ethical and economic issues be matched with a simple call to set limits? (...) food is not optional."

I think their estimate of the degree to which we have passed the climate threshold is understated. We appear to have passed a major tipping point in 2006:


Then factor in the socioeconomic and political problems that are building up around the world: the ongoing global financial crisis, the disintegration of Europe, the problems in North Africa and the Middle East, the increasingly frail Chinese economy, the increasing consolidation of wealth and power at the tip of the hierarchic social pyramid, the recent stolen American presidential elections...

There's no need for Mad Max. None whatsoever.

CRH

(1,553 posts)
11. The only way they will be stopped, ...
Thu Nov 1, 2012, 01:00 PM
Nov 2012

is by removing the consumer (willingly or otherwise), from the equation. They are powerless without profit and reinvestment capital.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
12. And the only way to remove the consumer from the equation
Thu Nov 1, 2012, 01:02 PM
Nov 2012

is to remove the money they need in order to consume. This will happen unwillingly, of course...

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
18. "I" don't propose to do anything.
Thu Nov 1, 2012, 05:24 PM
Nov 2012

Either the money will be removed from the consumers by the collapse of the global economy, or it won't. If it isn't we'll just keep consuming and producing for a little while longer, and the global economy will crash a litle later. There is nothing else to do - the gap between where we are now and some mythical "sustainability" is far too large to be bridged by voluntary action. I propose we all simply reduce our consumption as much as we can, and then wait for reality to finish the job.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
19. Okay then.
Thu Nov 1, 2012, 05:45 PM
Nov 2012

But how would we even know that collapse is even remotely close to inevitable, though? I'm not saying it can't happen, btw. It can.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
20. We won't know for sure until it does happen.
Thu Nov 1, 2012, 06:28 PM
Nov 2012

Until then, it's up to each of us to decide for ourselves. Reality doesn't care what you or I think, it will do its own thing no matter what we choose to believe.

And believe it or not, I'm happier being convinced of the imminence and inevitability of collapse. I find this perception enormously liberating. It reminds me that everything is transient, including myself. It keeps me from taking things so seriously that I stop having fun. It gives me permission to lay down my burden of "shoulds" and instead do the things I want to do in life - a freedom that is always tempered with the poignancy and immediacy that the awareness of impermanence brings.

Others of course don't find that view nearly as satisfying as I do - but a surprising number seem to.

As much as I enjoy arguing with you and trying to get you to spread your intellectual wings a bit wider, it really doesn't matter if you end up believing what I do. None of us (can) believe the same things as anyone else. And if our views were identical, we would lose that lovely contrast that illuminates the ideas - the difference between heads and tails on two sides of the same coin.

CRH

(1,553 posts)
13. In the perfect world people would not separate themselves, ...
Thu Nov 1, 2012, 02:09 PM
Nov 2012

from their actions. How many computers do you own? Have a smart phone perhaps? Drive a car? Live in the suburbs rather than renting close to work? Is most all of your consumption, produced local? How many televisions, stereos, video collections? Any toys, perhaps motorcycles, all terrain vehicle, boat, skies, guns, ... fill in the blank ...? How about hobbies, travel for hunting, spectator sports, roller blading, bike riding? Transportation to the beach, mountains, desert for relaxation. Your children need transportation to soccer, violin lessons, or special education?

The point is, if you live normal in a crazed society, you are a polluter. Especially if you consume anything that isn't needed for your health and shelter, or that can't be provided from you own community. Very very few people can pass the test of non polluters, very few people can pass the test of consuming only what they need for life. If you live beyond absolute needs, then you pollute, and you support those that provide polluted energy and polluted consumption.

Anyone typing on a computer on this forum is using expanded share of this earth's resources and contributing more than their fair share of pollution, when split into 7+ billion accounts, of a global environmental primary budget.

I'm not picking on you specifically, Joe. To avoid the crisis humans face today, population would have needed to cease growth no later than 1950. To accomplish this, in the perfect world, every family would have been voluntarily limited to one child until the global population had stabilized. Meaning every human walking and consuming today who is not a first child or the child of a first child, is a part of the problem. A part of the over stress on the global primary budget of energy and other resources.

I am a fourth child borne in 1951. I grew up the youngest in a 'nuclear family' of six, that owned one car, one black and white television bought in 1959, had one house telephone, every sibling had a bicycle, we lived in a 800 sq/ft house that included a one car garage, we attended public school that we walked to, and the family took a 1-2 week vacation once a year to wherever the family car could travel. My family was happy even with few extras and toys ... Even that level of consumption was too much within a growing global population, even that level of consumption, was not sustainable. My siblings and I have a total of four children.

At 16 years of age I was cast into a society needing to find employment, procure transportation, buy a house and provide for a family. Each and every one of my actions, though modest, put the planet in more stress than could be sustained. Everyday I have lived and performed action, I have been a reason we face this crisis today. I am a part of the problem, of a human population in overshoot. Even if I live like a monk, this changes nothing, I am by living, a polluter, a consumer of the viability of the future.

So when others like me say we need to allow a rebalancing of the planet's carrying capacity, not fight what the numbers can't support, we are not being cruel, just realists.

on edit: added a couple of words for clarity.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
15. Well said!
Thu Nov 1, 2012, 04:20 PM
Nov 2012

Last edited Thu Nov 1, 2012, 06:43 PM - Edit history (2)

Over the last 10 years, as I've become aware of the problem, I have become acutely aware of my status as part of that problem.

I was the oldest of 3 children, born in 1950. One sister and I are child-free, the other produced 2 further children. We have all been over-consumers. My surviving sister is a jet-setting architect, my brother-in-law is a peripatetic lawyer. My parents were scientists. We traveled a lot. My parents have visited every continent on the planet. I've owned big houses, big cars and very fancy stereos - though that's all gone now. I grew up as a techno-kid, a post-Sputnik rocketeer, and if I'd known about Ray Kurzweil's technological singularity when I was younger, I'd have been a true believer.

I woke the fuck up early in 2002, after 9/11. I discovered the truth about 9/11, climate change, stolen American elections, the threat of peak oil - and then I dug out my old copy of "Limits to Growth". It's hard to get over the grief, despair and guilt of an awakening like that. I've been frantically downsizing ever since, but as you say it's essentially impossible to live a sustainable life in North America. I type on the Internet as a hobby, and that alone guarantees that I am mortgaging my planet's future.

I think that the human race has been unsustainable since 1800, at a population of 1 billion just before we became Burning Man. Or maybe we've been unsustainable since 8,000 BC when we decided that we owned the place, and any animal or other person that wanted to eat our food was The Enemy. Or maybe since 200,000 BC when our self-awareness led us to divide the universe in two. On one side of the self-conscious divide there was ME. On the other side there was just an enormous bag of resources for ME to use as I wish. Regardless of when it happened, we're deep into overshoot now, and the planet is suffering from our actions.

I've been a techno-geek computer engineer long enough to know that technology is not, and perhaps can not be, part of the solution. I've been a socialist (like my parents) long enough to know that socialism is just another smoke screen for consumption and planetary exploitation. I've noodled with Anarcho-Primitivism enough to know it has no answers either - you can't go home again. I've looked into the human brain deeply enough to suspect that most of the problem comes from somewhere in that kilo of grey jelly. I've looked into my own soul enough to know that I am neither a god nor a demon (or more accurately that I am both). I've decided that we can't get out of the mess the same way we got into it.

All we can do is our best - "In all matters, strive to do the right thing." I have no more need of salvation, atonement or punishment - I am what I am. My personal motto is the ancient inscription at the Temple of Apollo at Delphi: "Gnothi Seuton" - "Know Thyself." I suspect that a lot of others here follow that same timeless advice.

CRH

(1,553 posts)
21. Back at ya, amigo ...
Thu Nov 1, 2012, 06:55 PM
Nov 2012

Last edited Fri Nov 2, 2012, 10:05 AM - Edit history (1)

It is great to know I have company. Your history though different from mine in some ways, strikes so many parallels, in others.

As for sustainable populations, I've always fluctuated between 800,000,000 and 1,500,000,000 depending on the technology used, and those employing the technology. Will science save humanity or even expand the 'limits of growth'? In my mind not until science is true to itself, not for sale to grants, corporate funding, or other monetary expectations. Not before, science is used without favor and without purpose. * * Note, I used the year 1950 loosely, to be safe from 'specific author' nazis, touting specific positions of presumed benevolent scientific innovation, extending limits of the human dimension.

Grief, despair, and guilt are all normal human emotions to an awakening that portrays a bleak future because of our own existence. Even if, it is an existence that was modest, matters little in the times of self torture. For me, that was where the dark nights found solace in multi dimensional unification of the human condition of past, with what I call, the void created when losing my egotistical reality. Simply said, traveling beyond me and finding everything, dependent on nothing. Not a joke, or a riddle, just real. Enough of the existential.

When exactly the human race became unsustainable, for me, depends on whether the limitations are thought to be physical, or rather, an undeveloped mental capacity. I'll not even stray to the spiritual, as there is much danger in being drawn from a method or order to find reason, floating within that quagmire. Leave it to be said, humans transcending ego has been of little measure, when relating to the history of self promotion and usury, whether for monetary or corporal purpose. It was much simpler when it was man against nature with the tribe thought of as one. Man against man opens a different envelope, with a poisoned letter demonstrating history.

'Neither I am God nor Demon', sends me to dualism I prefer to avoid, I'd rather jump to, I am what I am, from where I've been. No apologies, no excuses. But that is just my own perceived incarnation, others have different means and different experience to guide them. My opinion, we will not grow our way to a physical solution, but we may find a different enlightenment, in the search. Once again approaching the esoteric, and possibly beyond, to individual enlightenment, or not. Probably a better forum than this, for that.

Enjoyed your post GG, you always provoke my thoughts, and stretch my imagination. Thanks. hrh

edit: woke in the middle of the night and realized, I needed three more zeros on the population figures in the second paragraph.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
22. Oh so nice.
Thu Nov 1, 2012, 07:08 PM
Nov 2012

I suspected something like that was in there somewhere. Not a word of disagreement from here. Thank you for writing that.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
24. I was just thinking back to one of our first conversations in September
Thu Nov 1, 2012, 07:28 PM
Nov 2012

when you smacked me for being arrogant. I enjoy remembering that.

CRH

(1,553 posts)
25. It might even have been, you were less arrogant than me ignorant, ...
Thu Nov 1, 2012, 08:53 PM
Nov 2012

perceptions vary with time, contemplation, and introspection. Understanding our own limitations can be tantamount to, humility. Experiencing not suffering, humility, allows me the space to grow, and realize others thoughts and perceptions though mostly parallel, sometimes collide. Ego in conflict with thought settles to abeyance in emotion, that later floats into introspection and eventually self awareness, that my perceptions were lacking.

Your statement following, made me contemplate my hasty post, and later search within for a reason to my reaction. It was simple, and borne of my own ignorance, of the automatic updating of linked models. In essence the error was mine, and not of your failure, to spoon feed me information. Where I am slippery, is I only suffer humility when I can't admit I was wrong, which I was.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
26. OK, that was pretty remarkable.
Thu Nov 1, 2012, 10:07 PM
Nov 2012

Inner work on the energy board of a political blog. Huh! No matter how progressive this place is supposed to be, that was impressive.

Yeah, following a chain of reactivity back to its root and recognizing the misperceptions that gave it life at each stage is such a satisfying thing to do. I find that if I do it right, my ability to be honest about the scripts I uncover grows at each step. If I can sit with it all the way, sometimes I can get all the way down to the bottom and realize, "Wow, look at that - I was completely wrong, and I know why! This is so cool." The feeling associated with that discovery is one of total delight. But it always begins with some uncomfortable feeling - anger or resistance or arrogance or defensiveness or something similar.

I love listening to other people do their work almost as much as I love doing my own. That was a real treat.

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