Environment & Energy
Related: About this forumIndia's first Hydrogen Fuel Cell Intercity Luxury Coach Unveiled
Indias first Hydrogen Fuel cell Intercity luxury Coach unveiled by BharatBenz & Reliance Industries
Vrinda Mehul Pandya | July 22, 2023
Bharat Benz in collaboration with Reliance Industries has showcased an intercity luxury concept coach powered by Hydrogen Fuel Cell technology at the 4th Energy Transitions Working Group meeting under Indias G20 Presidency at Taleigao, Goa.
It is Indias first Hydrogen Fuel Cell intercity luxury coach. It is based on a customized BharatBenz coach chassis and powered by a fuel cell system designed and developed by Reliance Industries, using state-of-the-art components from international partners with significant localization.
Reliance Industries introduced Indias first Hydrogen Internal Combustion Engine technology solution for heavy-duty trucks at the India Energy Week in Bangalore.
The luxury coach will travel approximately 400 km on a single hydrogen fill and can travel long distances between cities on clean fuel. It can also deliver a gross system power of 127 kW and a total power of 105 kW...more
https://e-vehicleinfo.com/indias-first-hydrogen-fuel-cell-intercity-luxury-coach-unveiled-by-bharatbenz-reliance-ind/
Intended objectives:
Making India a leading producer and supplier of Green Hydrogen in the world
Creation of export opportunities for Green Hydrogen and its derivatives
Reduction in dependence on imported fossil fuels and feedstock
Development of indigenous manufacturing capabilities
Attracting investment and business opportunities for the industry
Creating opportunities for employment and economic development
Supporting R&D projects..more
https://www.india.gov.in/spotlight/national-green-hydrogen-mission
India (1.4 BILLION) AND China (1.4 BILLION) are now competing to see who can green up first.
Around 1/3 of the entire planet. Astounding. The US is almost a rounding error now.
Real change is on the way - with hydrogen.
At least one poster here is attempting to "Shoot the Messenger" - trying to paint this poster as a ignorant Hydrogen kook - as if I'm making this stuff up or something. It's happening, regardless of who is paying attention.
STM hasn't worked. It is not working now. It will not work in the future.
Shoot the messenger is for children who have no argument.
July 2023: India continues the Hydrogen Energy Revolution
Alexander Of Assyria
(7,839 posts)Indian Railways, largest system in the world, will be green hydrogen powered, its a no brainer.
The West can thank the East for eventually saving the planet from their century of unrestrained cheap fossil fuel burning
this new stuff is expensive, but its being done
.could easily tell West to fuck off and keep burning the same cheap crap carbon 100% day and night to power their own smokestack Industrial Revolution.
You will be welcome.
msongs
(67,441 posts)OKIsItJustMe
(19,938 posts)Alexander Of Assyria
(7,839 posts)Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)With this amazing new discovery that we can power vehicles with Hydrogen, and the lofty goal that India COULD be net-zero by ... wait for it ... 2070?
The planet is as good as saved!
Did that sound about right?
Seriously though, hydrogen as fuel isn't going to do much to get us out of this climate mess. Too little too late, too inefficient to produce without too many fossil fuel inputs.
Not unless we miraculously discover there's vast reservoirs of H2 just sitting there underground that humanity somehow never noticed, but now we can find a lot of them, and they're super handy to access and exploit.
Think. Again.
(8,396 posts)"Using a conservative range of input values, the model predicts a mean volume of hydrogen that could supply the projected global hydrogen demand for thousands of years, Ellis said." -U.S. Dept of Interior, U.S. Geological Survey.
From: https://www.usgs.gov/news/featured-story/potential-geologic-hydrogen-next-generation-energy
But also, yes, Hydrogen will help us get out of this climate mess, it will allow us the ability to store energy produced from Solar and Wind for use at night and when the wind isn't blowing.
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)I seriously doubt Ellis' statement is accurate if extrapolated to mean 'free hydrogen replacing the energy of fossil fuel resources' when talking about 'global hydrogen demand'.
We've known we could burn hydrogen as fuel for a real, real long time, and we've been sticking straws in the ground to gather energy for almost as long. Pretty sure we'd have noticed 1000 years worth of deposits a real, real long time ago and began leveraging them.
Not buying it based on one quip from someone at USGS and one estimated-to-be-large discovery in France.
Think. Again.
(8,396 posts)...you're right, it's not a good idea to trust one source of info, even if it is THE U.S. DEPT OF INTERIOR.....
Earth's surprising hydrogen stores https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/earths-surprising-hydrogen-reserves-ren%C3%A9-burri
Natural hydrogen migration along thrust faults in foothill basins: The North Pyrenean Frontal Thrust case study https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0883292722002001
Limitless white hydrogen under our feet may soon shatter all energy assumptions https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/07/13/white-hydrogen-disrupt-global-energy-net-zero/
A Gold Mine of Clean Energy May Be Hiding Under Our Feet https://archive.is/NTDor
The earth might hold huge stores of natural hydrogen and prospectors are already scouring South Australia for it https://theconversation.com/the-earth-might-hold-huge-stores-of-natural-hydrogen-and-prospectors-are-already-scouring-south-australia-for-it-204904
Natural Hydrogen https://www.subresconsult.com/project/natural-hydrogen
ANALYSIS | Will natural hydrogen extracted from the ground be the next global gold rush?
https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/innovation/analysis-will-natural-hydrogen-extracted-from-the-ground-be-the-next-global-gold-rush-/2-1-1346871
Renewable White Hydrogen: The Key on the Path to Net Zero https://www.beam.earth/white-hydrogen/
Forget Oil. New Wildcatters Are Drilling For Limitless Geologic Hydrogen https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2023/06/26/forget-oil-new-wildcatters-are-drilling-for-limitless-geologic-hydrogen/?sh=276e807961c8
The occurrence and geoscience of natural hydrogen: A comprehensive review https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0012825219304787
Characterization of the spontaneously recharging natural hydrogen reservoirs of Bourakebougou in Mali https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-38977-y
Bill Gates Backs Stealth Startup with $91M for Hydrogen Revolution. https://carboncredits.com/bill-gates-backs-startup-91m-for-geologic-hydrogen-revolution/
What potential for natural hydrogen? https://www.energy-observer.org/resources/natural-hydrogen
Hidden hydrogen Does Earth hold vast stores of a renewable, carbon-free fuel? https://www.science.org/content/article/hidden-hydrogen-earth-may-hold-vast-stores-renewable-carbon-free-fuel
Those are just a few finds with a quick google search.
Caribbeans
(777 posts)Hydrogen fuel cells don't "burn H2" - it's a chemical reaction
The new H2 bus in India uses fuel cells for the bus pictured above
But anyway, Combustion is NOT the enemy, it's Carbon
Hydrogen combustion will allow the use of millions and millions of dollars worth of equipment in a much cleaner way than with Petrol - without having to junk it all
Those "climate costs" have already been paid and re-using the equipment will save C02 (and lots of $)
OKIsItJustMe
(19,938 posts)Hydrogen would be more helpful for seasonal storage.
NREL: 100% Clean Electricity by 2035 Study
Think. Again.
(8,396 posts)OKIsItJustMe
(19,938 posts)It's possible for us to have a clean grid by 2035, but will require a tremendous amount of work.
In 2008, Hansen et al warned us:
Target Atmospheric CO₂ Where Should Humanity Aim?
if the world continues on a business-as-usual path for even another decade without initiating phase-out of unconstrained coal use, prospects for avoiding a dangerously large, extended overshoot of the 350 ppm level will be dim.
Seems pretty clear.
They told us we could do it, but it would take a lot of work.
The most difficult task, phase-out over the next 20-25 years of coal use that does not capture CO₂, is Herculean, yet feasible when compared with the efforts that went into World War II. The stakes, for all life on the planet, surpass those of any previous crisis. The greatest danger is continued ignorance and denial, which could make tragic consequences unavoidable.
So, Im somewhat skeptical of us putting a clean grid in place by 2035. Its just too much work!
Caribbeans
(777 posts)So was the Manhattan project - which was somehow kept secret for years
"Its just too much work!" - good thing China doesn't believe that
For example: A national high speed rail network is a huge job.
But they are doing it - while managing to raise millions and millions of people to middle class status
Imagine not spending BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollars on war
or blowing up pipelines
It wasn't that long ago that the US was proud of building, not destroying
OKIsItJustMe
(19,938 posts)I was all in on fighting the Greenhouse Effect when I learned about it in the early 70s.
Jimmy Carter had solar panels put on the roof of the White House.
and Ronald Reagan had them taken down:
The forgotten story of Jimmy Carters White House solar panels
Jimmy Carter established the Department of Energy and National Research Labs to pursue renewable energy sources for the 21st century, and Ronald Reagan cut their budgets by about 90%.
NREL: Laboratory History
We could have done it, we chose not to.
Think. Again.
(8,396 posts)...why those panels aren't back up there yet?
OKIsItJustMe
(19,938 posts)
they heated water for the White House swimming pool. At that point in time, that really was the most efficient way to make use of solar power (heating water.) The technology had been around for a century, and was widely used before the introduction of modern hot water heaters.
My High School shop class constructed and installed similar solar panels on the roof of our high school. (No sign of them today
)
Photovoltaic cells just werent as efficient as they are today.
So, Jimmy Carter's panels are museum pieces. It might be nice if President Biden installed some state-of-the-art solar panels on the roof of the White House, but, then the Republicans would probably impeach him for it
OKIsItJustMe
(19,938 posts)Published 2:56 p.m. ET Aug. 15, 2013
While President Obama is away on vacation, the White House is getting a new addition.
Solar panels.
Construction workers are busy this week putting the panels in place, the first such installation since Jimmy Carter's presidency.
President Ronald Reagan later had Carter's solar panels removed.
Think. Again.
(8,396 posts)I didn't know that!
That really should have been all over the news...wait, oh, never mind.
Alexander Of Assyria
(7,839 posts)NNadir
(33,545 posts)The lie to the contrary is a lie.
If one buys into this bullshit marketing ply, one only deserves a tautology.
Alexander Of Assyria
(7,839 posts)Another is ignoring that fossil engines are being replaced by not fossil engines in EVs. One more battery means one less carbon burning engine isnt produced! Ever!
Lot of carbon to produce both, but betting a petroleum engine needs more dirty carbon than a EV battery.
NNadir
(33,545 posts)The "green hydrogen" scam is not worth even a tiny fraction of the money being squandered on it.
This scam has been running well over half a century.
NNadir
(33,545 posts)...EVs have a slightly lower carbon impact in cars, but nothing dramatic, since wild fantasies aside, most grids rely on fossil fuels.
Hybrids are better from an exergy destruction perspective.
Batteries on grids are disasters based on the fraudulent belief that so called "renewable energy" (except for hydro) is a meaningful source of primary energy. It hasn't been, isn't, and won't be.
The energy storage morons have simply relying on the irrational belief that electricity is magically independent from the overwhelmingly dependence on dangerous fossil fuels. They have no idea of what primary energy is, and are nearly as bad and toxic as the hydrogen salespeople and salesbots here.
China has over 100 million electric vehicles, mostly scooters. They effectively simply move pollution from urban areas to rural areas, and climate change is unaffected. In some cases the mortality associated with electric cars (not scooters) is higher than with gasoline cars.
Good luck with finding enough cobalt slaves to change all the world's cars into EVs. It's just another exercise is wishful thinking and delusion from my perspective.
After all this wishful thinking, hand waving and soothsaying, decade upon decade, the planet is in flames.
Alexander Of Assyria
(7,839 posts)Maybe Toyota is correct to leap straight to hydrogen, but thats a longer term bet.
Meanwhile I will stick to the scientific and economic belief of the vast majority of scientists and economists.
Cobalt production by wildcat mining in Congo is a colonial relic, the West never gave a fuck until it needed cobalt
China companies moved into Congo cobalt mining long before the West started crocodile tears over black folk in slavery over abundant cobalt
its fixable
mor3 money and actual empathy, less fake handwringing.
the former slave owners are not my go to source for tears over black peoples sufferings.
NNadir
(33,545 posts)To convince me that one is "sticking" to the "scientific belief (sic) of the vast majority of scientists and economists," one would need to show that one actually reads the scientific literature.
I do.
As such, I can tell who is aware of scientific consensus, and who is just chanting. (This reminds me of past days at Daily Kos, where there were lots of assholes who claimed to believe, the climate scientist Jim Hansen until Jim Hansen said something they didn't like, that nuclear energy saves lives, whereupon the "belief" in Jim Hansen vanished.
Prevented Mortality and Greenhouse Gas Emissions from Historical and Projected Nuclear Power (Pushker A. Kharecha* and James E. Hansen Environ. Sci. Technol., 2013, 47 (9), pp 48894895)
One doesn't "believe" in science; it's not a religion.
One is aware of scientific consensus, perhaps, but one does not "believe" in say even the simplest sense, the second law of thermodynamics, the subject of much religious denial here, usually associated with battery bullshit and worse, hydrogen bullshit.
The general term for environmental analysis of technologies is "LCA," life cycle analysis. I've read many thousands of papers on this subject in my 20 year tenure here, and commented on lots of them.
My journal here is filled with references to the primary scientific literature. I have the distinct impression that the majority of the world's scientists do not even remotely believe that a switch to electric cars will save the world.
Of course, science, like all serious human enterprises, is hardly flawless, and treating scientists as if they were deacons, priests, cardinals, or popes is hardly a worthy enterprise. It is also true that science is influenced by the need to get grants, that is money. Thousands of papers have been published on thermochemical processes using concentrated solar energy, not because anyone seriously believes that environmental tragedies like Ivanpah are remotely realistic or sustainable, but because one can get a grant if one states that this is the goal. (Many of these papers are valuable inasmuch as the thermochemical reactions are easily transferable to high temperature nuclear reactors, far more realistic technology, and far less destructive than that gas dependent in flight bird fryer at Ivanpah.)
Lame excuses about whose fault it is that cobalt mining, which exists as a form of slavery today, widely reported by social justice organizations around the world, does not prove that there is sufficient cobalt to satisfy the stupid bourgeois fantasies about a world dominated by electric cars.
What's the excuse for the indifference, that cobalt mined by companies operating in the Congo region that are owned by Chinese do not appear in American batteries?
There are asses here who think that batteries are appropriate on grids. They soothsay about magic battery grids all the time in order to defend the useless solar and wind industries from the reality that they are just that, useless, unreliable, dependent of access to fossil fuels and mining.
Last autumn, I commented on this, using the product of the Apartheid hero Elon Musk to analyze how much cobalt would have been required to cover the month long episode of Dunkelflaute in Germany:
The Number of Tesla Powerwalls Required That Would Address the Current German Dunkleflaute Event. (December, 2022)
Here are the specifications of Tesla Powerwalls®:
Specifications of Powerwalls®.
It is claimed they have a useable capacity of 13.5 kWh after being charged with 14 kWh of electricity, presumably at 25°C, with a putative thermodynamic efficiency - should you choose to believe it - of 96%. The maximum continuous power output is said to be 5 kW. The power requirements to match the combined coal and gas average continuous power of combined German coal and gas over the last 30 days, 44.4 GW would require 8,880,000 million Powerwalls®, to cover each day of Dunkelflaute; for 30 days, given that the wind wasn't blowing that much over that period, 266,400,000 Powerwalls®.
The specifications say that each Powerwall® weighs 114 kg, meaning that 30,369,600,000 kg of Powerwalls® would be required just for Germany.
According to Forbes, 15% of the weight of a Tesla Powerwall is cobalt, mined by Elon's happy Congolese slaves, meaning that the happy Congolese cobalt slaves would be required to mine and isolate 4,555,400 metric tons of cobalt to make Powerwalls® to cover this instance of Dunkleflaute with batteries.
This is 31.63 times as large as the world production of cobalt in 2021 according to the US Geological Survey
I'm sorry!!! I forgot to use "percent talk!" The demand for cobalt to cover month long Dunkleflaute in Germany observed in Nov-Dec 2022 would be 3163% the demand for all the world cobalt supply in 2021.
The calculations are strictly "back of the envelope" but doing calculations of this type can, in my opinion, eliminate the risk of mouthing insane wishful thinking rhetoric.
I will have been at Democratic Underground for 21 years this coming November. I've listened to over two decades of wishful thinking and denial in this space, generally led by antinukes and "I'm not an antinuke" antinukes, none of whom can show that any of the bullshit they hand out is even remotely addressing climate change.
Now here we are: Well over 420 ppm of the dangerous fossil fuel waste carbon dioxide in the planetary atmosphere, over 50 ppm higher than when I joined. Skies all over the world are filled with the smoke of burning ecosystems.
I have the distinct impression that despite all of the bullshit about energy storage - an obscenity in a world where the primary source of primary energy is fossil fuels - that none of the rhetoric I've heard here has addressed the problem. The opposite is true: Things are getting worse faster. The claim that batteries and energy storage is quite literally gas lighting, because right now, in 2023, we are burning more dangerous natural gas than we ever have before, and dumping the waste in the atmosphere while claiming in disasters like Texas and California that solar and wind energy are saving the day.
That's not reality; that's religious chanting.
Or am I missing something? Is the world not burning? Are people not dying in the streets, in valleys, in forests, in fields from extreme heat?
What is very clear is that people everywhere - we're certainly not immune - simply refuse to get serious about climate change and just chant and chant and chant and chant delusional bullshit, attributing the bullshit, unjustly, to the scientific community without showing any evidence of even remote familiarity with the scientific literature.
The scientific literature is not biblical in nature, but many people here, like Christians who don't give a rat's ass about what Jesus said about, say, poverty or tolerance, wish to treat science like bible tracts.
If this approach to science were not so tragic under the circumstances, it would be laughable, but I'm not laughing. There's nothing funny about it.
Have a nice day tomorrow.
Alexander Of Assyria
(7,839 posts)India also sending a moon lander but western media clings also to the old familiar India is backwards meme dying meme as we speak.
Goonch
(3,614 posts)Alexander Of Assyria
(7,839 posts)Beachnutt
(7,340 posts)in Coolidge Arizona and setting up hydrogen infrastructure to support them.
https://www.nikolamotor.com/press_releases/nikola-and-fortescue-future-industries-commit-to-creating-american-green-energy-jobs-with-acquisition-of-nikolas-phoenix-hydrogen-hub/
https://www.nikolamotor.com/press_releases/nikola-and-bayotech-partner-to-advance-zero-emission-hydrogen-delivery/
https://www.nikolamotor.com/press_releases/nikola-launches-first-hydrogen-fuel-cell-truck-mobile-fueler-223/
https://www.nikolamotor.com/press_releases/nikola-celebrates-100-sale-order-milestone-for-nikola-tre-hydrogen-fcev-class-8-truck/
NNadir
(33,545 posts)The reliance on coal in India is already obscene, and destroying exergy to make hydrogen from fossil fuels is disgusting.
A Giant Climate Lie: When they're selling hydrogen, what they're really selling is fossil fuels.
Hydrogen is not "green," has never been "green," and never will be "green." It's a fossil fuel bait and switch game that is killing people right now.
The planet is on fire, and fossil fuel salespeople/salesbots greenwashing fossil fuels by rebranding them as hydrogen are marketing the destruction of the planet.
Think. Again.
(8,396 posts)As you know, Green Hydrogen does not use fossil fuels, that is why it is called "Green".
You are still attempting to gaslight the readers of your posts.
By Sarita Chaganti Singh
January 4, 2023 8:38 AM ESTUpdated 7 months ago
NEW DELHI, Jan 4 (Reuters) - India has approved an incentive plan of 174.9 billion rupees ($2.11 billion) to promote green hydrogen in a bid to cut emissions and become a major exporter in the field, the information minister said on Wednesday.
The move is targeted to help India, one of the world's biggest greenhouse gas emitters, achieve net-zero carbon emissions by 2070. Reuters reported last month about India's plans for a green hydrogen incentive programme.
The country aims for annual production of 5 million tonnes of green hydrogen by 2030, cutting about 50 million tonnes of carbon emissions and saving one trillion rupees on fossil fuel imports, the minister, Anurag Thakur, told reporters.
Full article: https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/india-approves-2-billion-incentive-plan-green-hydrogen-industry-2023-01-04/