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GreenPartyVoter

(72,381 posts)
Wed May 23, 2012, 03:26 PM May 2012

I have a question about nuclear weapons. Anyone here know much about them?

My question is this: What happens to them if the human race were to pretty much disappear tomorrow? Do the computer systems that run them just wind down and the missiles are then forever locked away in silos or bunkers or wherever they keep them? Is there any way for missiles to launch themselves without human interaction providing access codes or turning keys or whatever it is they have to do to give the final "Go?" (And outside of our country, do you figure all other nuclear-armed nations have similar safeguards in place?)

The reason I ask is that I had this weird thought the other night (it's always the middle of the night when these things come to you, right? ) that if we suffered a massive pandemic that decimated the population, there would be no one left to watch over all these complex things we have made. And wouldn't it be ironic if we disappeared and the planet started to heal from our treatment of it, only to suffer further damage from us as things like nuclear warheads went off long after we were gone?

103 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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I have a question about nuclear weapons. Anyone here know much about them? (Original Post) GreenPartyVoter May 2012 OP
As happened in the last billion or so years I would think things would re-evolve until Lint Head May 2012 #1
This seems to be the likeliest scenario. GreenPartyVoter May 2012 #6
From what I have read, the missiles will just sit there. It's the reactors that might pose a problem Ian David May 2012 #2
Well, it's reassuring to know we won't be able to blow things up any more. But yeah, the ability GreenPartyVoter May 2012 #5
A similar question might be: Who tends to the nuclear powerplant meltdowns when the grid falls? villager May 2012 #3
Yes, exactly. We have all kinds of infrastructure that is far from benign. It will certainly GreenPartyVoter May 2012 #4
When the grid fails, the graphite rods drop into the reactor, shutting it down TrogL May 2012 #8
That's what happened at Fukushima - fuel rods keep generating heat even with control rods inserted bananas May 2012 #24
A year later and they STILL have to pump cooling water into the reactors and spent fuel pools. nt bananas May 2012 #26
Some recent news stories about how necessary cooling water is after the plant is "shut down" bananas May 2012 #28
Not GRAPHITE!!! PamW May 2012 #33
When "the grid falls" there's no reason to keep running the reactor. jeff47 May 2012 #10
National Geographic has a less apologetic view of nuclear power, addressing the stored fuel rods villager May 2012 #20
As we've seen in Fukushima... caraher May 2012 #21
Exactly. Indeed, in these "aftermath" specials, they seem to think natural forces would "scrub away" villager May 2012 #22
No control rods in your scenario jeff47 May 2012 #37
Again, I will take the National Geographic scenario over yours villager May 2012 #40
So, you'd prefer to blatently ignore the critical difference jeff47 May 2012 #41
You didn't actually read National Geo's thesis, did you? villager May 2012 #43
You didn't actually read my posts, did you? jeff47 May 2012 #47
Yes, but even if plants survive safely their fuel will not. I realize all is hunky-dory in nuke land villager May 2012 #50
You should stop making dumb assumptions about other posters. jeff47 May 2012 #54
Ah, the "reality" card. villager May 2012 #57
Yes, reality jeff47 May 2012 #61
Fukushima is a "localized" disaster? villager May 2012 #64
Again, reality rears it's ugly head jeff47 May 2012 #66
"Again, reality rears its ugly head" villager May 2012 #83
Perhaps I can answer for you PamW May 2012 #77
It depends on the plant jeff47 May 2012 #79
WRONG!!!! WRONG!!! WRONG!!! PamW May 2012 #85
The reactor continues generating decay heat which can destroy the containment in hours bananas May 2012 #25
Why do you make a series of one-sentence replies? jeff47 May 2012 #38
Is that going to be in Bill Maher's New Rules segment this week? kristopher May 2012 #39
I'm not interested in banning him or her. jeff47 May 2012 #42
So you think "internet-message-board etiquette" is established by what you like. kristopher May 2012 #44
Perhaps you could provide a positive reason for spamming replies? jeff47 May 2012 #45
See post 44. kristopher May 2012 #48
Why? jeff47 May 2012 #49
A year later and they STILL have to pump cooling water into the reactors and spent fuel pools. bananas May 2012 #27
That's because there are no control rods jeff47 May 2012 #35
Control rods aren't the issue. PamW May 2012 #84
No, you can't ignore it, cooling water still has to be pumped in bananas May 2012 #29
Fukushima has no control rods anymore jeff47 May 2012 #36
"Fukushima has no control rods anymore" villager May 2012 #51
When they had control rods, they were a good safety feature. jeff47 May 2012 #52
"When they had control rods, they were a good safety feature" villager May 2012 #53
Perhaps you could take a moment and realize the alternative you're getting jeff47 May 2012 #55
So now we're talking about coal burning, and not the OP? villager May 2012 #56
You wandered into anti-nuke land. jeff47 May 2012 #59
Um, no. I was sticking to the OP (remember, it's about *nukes* in the aftermath of humankind) villager May 2012 #60
that's where you started. Then you moved on to anti-nuke jeff47 May 2012 #62
again, the OP is about *the disappearance of humankind* villager May 2012 #63
Conversations move on from where they start. jeff47 May 2012 #67
Yes. And on discussion boards like this, they start with the OP. villager May 2012 #68
I see it as just the opposite XemaSab May 2012 #69
XemaSab, do you think they're the only ones saying no hard choices lay aheaD? villager May 2012 #70
You're right, it's everyone XemaSab May 2012 #71
There are some cornucopians among 'em, but I also find many of them to be quite realistic villager May 2012 #72
I cannot answer your question, But I think it an excellent one truedelphi May 2012 #7
I was around when the USSR could have annhilated us, and it turned out to be the sun hitting GreenPartyVoter May 2012 #12
There is no way the human decision-makers have been or will be removed kristopher May 2012 #15
I wish I could believe you, truedelphi May 2012 #16
Take it or leave it. kristopher May 2012 #17
All I know is that even in Arizona, we can't have them in our house, car or on our person. OffWithTheirHeads May 2012 #9
LOL GreenPartyVoter May 2012 #13
Interesting questions SoutherDem May 2012 #11
I will definitely add that to my queue! LOL GreenPartyVoter May 2012 #14
You may want to check out, "Life After People" OKIsItJustMe May 2012 #18
My kids and I loved the "Life After People" series! I don't remember them discussing the GreenPartyVoter May 2012 #19
I don’t recall them specifically addressing them, no OKIsItJustMe May 2012 #23
nuclear missles need constant maintenance or they won't work. provis99 May 2012 #30
Humans are worse than nuclear waste. hunter May 2012 #31
The earth has gone through catastrophes much worse than a few bombs going off GliderGuider May 2012 #32
Actually a good perspective, GG. Though one wonders if the recent methane releases means villager May 2012 #65
Don't worry about nuclear weapons... PamW May 2012 #34
Just wondering SoutherDem May 2012 #46
OFF is OFF PamW May 2012 #58
Thanks, Pam! GreenPartyVoter May 2012 #74
AS to Nuclear Weapons.. happyslug May 2012 #73
Thank you. That all makes perfect sense to me. :^) GreenPartyVoter May 2012 #75
NOT TRUE!! PamW May 2012 #76
The "Weapons" can last, but NOT the Uranium or Plutonium in them happyslug May 2012 #78
WRONG!!!! WRONG!!! WRONG!!! PamW May 2012 #80
You cite some interesting articles happyslug May 2012 #81
Another thing that is NOT classified PamW May 2012 #82
Oh, there's lots of plutonium. AtheistCrusader May 2012 #99
If the human race disappears, there is no one around to care what happens next. FarCenter May 2012 #86
None of our reactors are currently 'walk away safe'. AtheistCrusader May 2012 #87
Argonne's Integral Fast Reactor is inherently safe.. PamW May 2012 #89
Hmm. That's not why Chernobyl exploded... AtheistCrusader May 2012 #90
WRONG - that IS why Chernobyl exploded.. PamW May 2012 #91
I wouldn't call the xenon poisoning 'augmenting'. AtheistCrusader May 2012 #92
Xenon Instability plus a trigger... PamW May 2012 #93
I disagree. AtheistCrusader May 2012 #94
The final event... PamW May 2012 #95
Those pumps were still spinning. AtheistCrusader May 2012 #96
The pumps didn't have to stop... PamW May 2012 #97
The rods moved. AtheistCrusader May 2012 #98
That's part of it. PamW May 2012 #100
I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree to disagree until I see this model. AtheistCrusader May 2012 #101
Let's go through the reactor physics.. PamW Jun 2012 #102
Over-moderated reactors PamW Jun 2012 #103
Hickory Dickory Dock Texas-Limerick May 2012 #88

Lint Head

(15,064 posts)
1. As happened in the last billion or so years I would think things would re-evolve until
Wed May 23, 2012, 03:29 PM
May 2012

the expansion of the sun consumes the earth.

GreenPartyVoter

(72,381 posts)
5. Well, it's reassuring to know we won't be able to blow things up any more. But yeah, the ability
Wed May 23, 2012, 03:32 PM
May 2012

to poison will go on and on for a very long time.

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
3. A similar question might be: Who tends to the nuclear powerplant meltdowns when the grid falls?
Wed May 23, 2012, 03:29 PM
May 2012

And/or when a number of years go by without any maintenance on them, etc...?

GreenPartyVoter

(72,381 posts)
4. Yes, exactly. We have all kinds of infrastructure that is far from benign. It will certainly
Wed May 23, 2012, 03:31 PM
May 2012

continue to impact the environment somehow. I can just imagine what the ocean will look like if it rises and starts swallowing up nuclear and industrial sites.

bananas

(27,509 posts)
24. That's what happened at Fukushima - fuel rods keep generating heat even with control rods inserted
Wed May 23, 2012, 06:11 PM
May 2012

Electricity is needed to keep the cooling pumps running.
If they hadn't restored cooling at Fukushima, it would have been unimaginably worse.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x280732

Reactor containment buildings are not designed to contain a meltdown

<snip>

Reactor containment buildings today are not designed to contain a reactor core meltdown accident, however. Their "design basis accident" is a loss-of-coolant accident in which large amounts of volatile radioisotopes are released from a temporarily over-heated core, but in which the uncontrolled release of energy from the core into the containment atmosphere is terminated by a flood of emergency core cooling water before an actual meltdown occurs. This is essentially what happened during the accident at Three Mile Island although, due to various errors, the core remained only partially cooled for a period of hours.

The threat of overpressurization. If for any reason the emergency core cooling system were not effective and a core meltdown occurred, the build-up of internal pressure in a sealed reactor containment building could rupture it within a matter of hours. The threat would come from steam, hydrogen and other gases.

<snip>

bananas

(27,509 posts)
26. A year later and they STILL have to pump cooling water into the reactors and spent fuel pools. nt
Wed May 23, 2012, 06:15 PM
May 2012

bananas

(27,509 posts)
28. Some recent news stories about how necessary cooling water is after the plant is "shut down"
Wed May 23, 2012, 06:56 PM
May 2012
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/08/fukushima-rising-temperatures-stability-nuclear-reactor

Rising temperatures at Fukushima raise questions over stability of nuclear plant

The amount of cooling water being injected into No 2 reactor is increased after temperature soars to over 73C

Justin McCurry in Tokyo
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 7 February 2012 23.52 EST

<snip>

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/mar/28/fukushima-reactor-radiation-levels

Fukushima reactor shows radiation levels much higher than thought

Damage from disaster so severe that clean-up expected to take decades, according to latest examination of nuclear plant

Associated Press
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 28 March 2012 02.44 EDT

<snip>

PamW

(1,825 posts)
33. Not GRAPHITE!!!
Thu May 24, 2012, 10:20 AM
May 2012

Control rods in a reactor are NOT made of graphite. In fact, graphite would have the OPPOSITE effect to what you want.

Control rods in reactors are made of materials the ABSORB neutrons; like boron, cadmium, and the US Navy uses hafnium.

PamW

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
10. When "the grid falls" there's no reason to keep running the reactor.
Wed May 23, 2012, 03:50 PM
May 2012

So it won't need much tending. Control rods go all the way in, reactor cools, and you can ignore it.

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
20. National Geographic has a less apologetic view of nuclear power, addressing the stored fuel rods
Wed May 23, 2012, 05:41 PM
May 2012

...among other things:

"Spent nuclear fuel for nuclear power plants is generally stored in pools in on-site facilities. Since this water is not replenished, the heat of the fuel rods boils it away and the steam pressure causes the storage facilities to explode. The resulting nuclear disasters spread fallout over large areas. Radioactive clouds cross the skies and rain carries the radiation to the ground. Most plants and small animals within the affected zones die. The bigger ones (like deer) flee to unaffected regions – not because they notice the radiation, but because of the lack of food."

This was from their "Aftermath" special, about what happens to our infrastructure after humankind disappears.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aftermath:_Population_Zero

caraher

(6,279 posts)
21. As we've seen in Fukushima...
Wed May 23, 2012, 05:50 PM
May 2012

spent fuel storage now seems to be the previously-unpublicized weak link. The reactor cores are relatively well-contained, but there's a lot of dangerous waste outside containment thanks to our lack of a viable waste use/storage solution. I read some old NRC documents last year in the wake of Fukushima and there was some serious concern about reactors of the same design (of which there are I think almost two dozen in the US) with elevated spent fuel pools being vulnerable to serious accidents in which the water drains and is not replaced (they focused on earthquakes).

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
22. Exactly. Indeed, in these "aftermath" specials, they seem to think natural forces would "scrub away"
Wed May 23, 2012, 05:56 PM
May 2012

...radiation in a few months or years. But one wonders -- with eyes warily cast toward Fukushima -- if that would really be the case.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
37. No control rods in your scenario
Thu May 24, 2012, 10:43 AM
May 2012

So no, it's not the same at all.

Control rods absorb the neutrons, so the reactor can't go critical. Not being critical keeps it cool.

If you dump the fuel into a container, as in the storage pools, you don't have anything stopping the chain reaction. It's only the fact that the fuel is "spent" that prevents it from getting insanely hot - there's a lot less neutrons flying around.

If you are talking about a long-term abandonment situation, it would be best to leave the fuel in the reactor, SCRAM it, and let physics do it's thing. The reactor will stay relatively cool. It will be radioactive as hell.

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
40. Again, I will take the National Geographic scenario over yours
Thu May 24, 2012, 12:51 PM
May 2012

...especially since "real world" experience in Fukushima proves them -- not you -- correct (sadly) about the expected aftermath(s) of spent fuel storage, absent water and a power grid...

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
41. So, you'd prefer to blatently ignore the critical difference
Thu May 24, 2012, 01:43 PM
May 2012

Good to see we liberals are so science-oriented and open minded.

Again, lack of a material to absorb the neutrons and stop the chain reaction makes the situations completely different.

If your scenario was correct, naturally-occurring uranium would be exploding all over the planet. Perhaps the fact that this isn't happening might indicate there's a difference.

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
43. You didn't actually read National Geo's thesis, did you?
Thu May 24, 2012, 01:51 PM
May 2012

Nor read of the news about Fukushima?

Here's more, from the same link:

"Life After People suggest that nuclear power plants would safely shut down with no ill effects with no mention of what would happen to spent fuel rods in storage. However, in an episode of Life After People: The Series, "Toxic Revenge", spent fuel rods are shown 10 days after people heating up and exploding the reactors containing it. Aftermath also shows that the nuclear power plants themselves would shut down without incident, but the spent fuel rod storage in separate buildings would eventually blow up and spread radiation into the air and the surrounding countryside after the backup safety devices fail, due to lack of fuel a few days after the main power plant supplying power shutdown. Life After People also does not mention the release of poisonous gas from chemical plants when their safety features fail, lacking the fuel to run them.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
47. You didn't actually read my posts, did you?
Thu May 24, 2012, 02:24 PM
May 2012

Here, lemme quote the critical difference between your scenario and mine.

spent fuel rods in storage


You are talking about one part of the plant. I am talking about another part of the plant.

Spent fuel rods are loaded into casks and dumped into water. There's nothing to regulate the on-going fission. So fission continues, releasing heat. Which means cooling is necessary and the disaster scenario you highlight can happen - in spent fuel pools.

That's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is in the reactor itself, where there is material to regulate fission - the control rods. Dropping the control rods in an undamaged reactor reduces fission by capturing the neutrons that cause the chain reaction. No chain reaction, and the fuel will be cool - roughly as cool as naturally-occurring uranium.

There is nothing like the control rods in spent fuel pools. There is something like the control rods in the dry casks that were being used at Yucca Mountain, which is why they do not require cooling.

Apples are not oranges. Spent fuel pools are not fuel in the reactor.
 

villager

(26,001 posts)
50. Yes, but even if plants survive safely their fuel will not. I realize all is hunky-dory in nuke land
Thu May 24, 2012, 03:02 PM
May 2012

...with you, and this is how it is for the devout.

However, as Fukushima is actually teaching us, right at this very moment, a nuclear power plant shorn of electricity and replenished water, is a dangerous thing. Whether the radiation comes from spent fuel rods, or those in the reactor vessel, matters little to those getting dosed.

Which is exactly what they'd become if/when humans vanish from the Earth. Despite how fervently we might insist otherwise.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
54. You should stop making dumb assumptions about other posters.
Thu May 24, 2012, 03:27 PM
May 2012

Or would you like me to start claiming you want us all shivering in the dark?

I'm pro-reality. There's enough bullshit on both sides of nuke/no-nuke.

However, as Fukushima is actually teaching us, right at this very moment, a nuclear power plant shorn of electricity and replenished water, is a dangerous thing.

No. That is the case for a first-generation plant like Fukushima. Which we already knew. Newer designs could theoretically deal with it, but these designs have not been built due to costs, lawsuits and lack of governmental approvals.

Whether the radiation comes from spent fuel rods, or those in the reactor vessel, matters little to those getting dosed.

Unless, of course, your goal was to prevent such a catastrophe. Because the difference tells you where you actually have to change what you're doing to avoid disaster.
 

villager

(26,001 posts)
57. Ah, the "reality" card.
Thu May 24, 2012, 03:37 PM
May 2012

Well, in "reality," we seem to have a disaster on our hands in Fukushima, and it ain't over yet.

In "reality," we subsidize all the safety costs of unsafe nuclear power plants, so that those promoting these technologies take on none of the risk.

In "reality," we're not really sure if new designs -- promoted by the corporate lobby that gave us these guaranteed-to-be-safe first generation plants -- could deal with these issues or not.

In "reality," we need to step away from energy solutions promoted by massive corporations and utilities for their own ends, and in "reality" we should stop repeating their talking points a.k.a. the "bullshit" that you speak so eloquently of.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
61. Yes, reality
Thu May 24, 2012, 04:09 PM
May 2012

The reality is we're fucking up our climate due to fossil fuel use.

We have promising technologies in wind, solar, tidal, and fusion. But they can not currently replace base load. Solar and wind are furthest along, but they're intermittent.

So what have we been doing? Burning more fossil fuels. Making climate change worse.

In "reality," we need to step away from energy solutions promoted by massive corporations and utilities for their own ends, and in "reality" we should stop repeating their talking points a.k.a. the "bullshit" that you speak so eloquently of.

And do what, exactly?

What you propose is to burn more coal and gas. Because that's all we've got at the moment for non-nuke base load.

Isn't it better to risk a rare, localized disaster to reduce a global disaster?
 

villager

(26,001 posts)
64. Fukushima is a "localized" disaster?
Thu May 24, 2012, 04:17 PM
May 2012

And is each successive nuclear power plant failure going to be called "rare," after it fails?

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
66. Again, reality rears it's ugly head
Thu May 24, 2012, 04:25 PM
May 2012

The Fukushima disaster has affected part of Japan.

Climate change is affecting the entire planet.

One of those two is quite local compared to the other......

And is each successive nuclear power plant failure going to be called "rare," after it fails?

Considering the 435 nuclear plants that have not had disasters, it's odd for you to demand we call the Fukushima disaster common.

Our choices are not "live in eco-paradise" and "nukes". Our choices are "nukes", "accelerate climate change", and "dark". The third is not acceptable to most people. When you knock out the first, we're left with the second.
 

villager

(26,001 posts)
83. "Again, reality rears its ugly head"
Sat May 26, 2012, 08:17 PM
May 2012

Last edited Sun May 27, 2012, 03:45 AM - Edit history (1)

indeed. Trust you saw the NY Times yesterday with the admission that radiation releases from Fukushima have been underestimated.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
77. Perhaps I can answer for you
Thu May 24, 2012, 08:22 PM
May 2012

Spent fuel needs to be actively cooled for a few months after being taken out of the reactor.

It all depends on what happened to the people, and when with regard to the de-fueling of the reactor.

If the reactor was de-fueled recently, and people just disappeared; then we would have the Fukushima scenario.

However, if it's been more than a few months; reactor's get refueled evey 12-18 months; then the need for active cooling will have subsided and there won't be a problem.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the "Life After People" TV series; they get lots of stuff just plain WRONG. Look at them as "entertainment" but CERTAINLY NOT as a scientific reference.

Jeff - you are wrong about there being nothing like control rods in the pools. YES there is.

The pools have little "cubby holes" to put the spent fuel assemblies in. The walls of these cubby holes are made with steel that is borated. In essence, the walls of the cubby holes are like control rods - but even better. Rods can't fully prevent neutrons from one assembly from transporting to a neighboring assembly. But a solid wall of borated steel sure can. So the fuel pools have something like "super control rods".

The reason Yucca and dry casks don't require cooling is that the fuel only needs cooling a few months. The fuel isn't put in either Yucca or in dry casks until the heat production rate has dropped by natural decay to the point that you don't need active cooling.

Hope that's educational.

PamW

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
79. It depends on the plant
Fri May 25, 2012, 08:50 AM
May 2012

Some plants use a pool that is basically a large swimming pool. Some do have structures like you say. But they are much less effective than the control rods, since they're a box around a large box of fuel, instead of being next to the fuel.

At Yucca, "hotter" waste will be mixed in the cask with a mediator of some sort. Most of the waste doesn't need that.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
85. WRONG!!!! WRONG!!! WRONG!!!
Tue May 29, 2012, 10:43 AM
May 2012

NO - the borated steel is actually MORE EFFECTIVE that control rods.

A single fuel assembly can't sustain a chain reaction by itself. You can only get a chain reaction if more than one fuel assembly "share" or pass neutrons among themselves. If you can totally block the neutron exchange between assemblies, then you can defeat crititcality.

Imagine we have some dark cloth and our object is to block light from traversing through the fuel assembly. What is the best way to make use of that black cloth.

Suppose we took our black cloth and rolled it into several tubes and put those tubes in amongst the fuel rods. Well that would block light, but only light whose path took it through the black cloth tubes.

Suppose we took our black cloth and made drapes that we put on the north, south, east, and west sides of the fuel assembly. Any light that is attempting to cross the fuel assembly in the horizontal plane has to encounter our black cloth drapes and will be absorbed.

A "curtain" on the surface is MUCH, MUCH more effective than rods. In fact, in the reactor you actually want to minimize the effect of a given rod so that if that rod were ejected the reactivity swing would be manageable. The reactor relies on having a great number of rods for control. Additionally PWRs put boric acid in the coolant water.

A solid curtain like the racks that EVERY SINGLE spent fuel pool has is MUCH, MUCH more effective than rods as the above analogy shows.

PamW

bananas

(27,509 posts)
25. The reactor continues generating decay heat which can destroy the containment in hours
Wed May 23, 2012, 06:13 PM
May 2012

Electricity is needed to keep the cooling pumps running to prevent that from happening.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
38. Why do you make a series of one-sentence replies?
Thu May 24, 2012, 10:48 AM
May 2012

Just make one post containing all of them.

If you thought of something to add, there's an "edit" link.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
39. Is that going to be in Bill Maher's New Rules segment this week?
Thu May 24, 2012, 11:05 AM
May 2012

Oh, wait, you aren't admin!

Sorry, I was confused for a moment.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
42. I'm not interested in banning him or her.
Thu May 24, 2012, 01:45 PM
May 2012

I'm pointing out some basic Internet-message-board etiquette.

Being a jerk about one's replies is not conducive to people reading one's replies.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
44. So you think "internet-message-board etiquette" is established by what you like.
Thu May 24, 2012, 01:56 PM
May 2012

And that it is your position to lecture people on it?

Well, we can at least agree that the word "jerk" fits into this discussion somewhere.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
45. Perhaps you could provide a positive reason for spamming replies?
Thu May 24, 2012, 02:01 PM
May 2012

So, other than "didn't know better", what's the good reason to spam a bunch of 1-sentence replies instead of a single, multi-sentence reply?

Requiring a lot more posts for a lot less content isn't doing one's readers any favors.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
49. Why?
Thu May 24, 2012, 02:54 PM
May 2012

I'm sure you could come up with a reason why it's a good idea to make it harder to read the message you are trying to convey.

Btw, pointing back to your own post without a link also makes it harder for readers to understand what you're trying to convey.

This assumes you and bananas both actually wish to convey something with your posts. Since this is a message board, that's the assumption I went with. If one's not trying to get any point across, I'm not exactly clear why one would bother posting at all.

bananas

(27,509 posts)
27. A year later and they STILL have to pump cooling water into the reactors and spent fuel pools.
Wed May 23, 2012, 06:17 PM
May 2012

The fuel rods continue generating "decay heat" for years - google it.
Electricity is needed to keep the cooling water circulating.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
35. That's because there are no control rods
Thu May 24, 2012, 10:37 AM
May 2012

I'm presuming you're talking about Fukushima. In that case, they can't put in any control rods because the nuclear material is a pile of slag, not neatly-stacked pellets.

Absorb the neutrons, and the reactor can't go critical. It will be warm, but not hot.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
84. Control rods aren't the issue.
Tue May 29, 2012, 10:32 AM
May 2012

Control rods aren't the issue, because they are really not needed now.

Control rods control the "criticality" of the reactor - the chain reaction. However, in order to have a chain reaction, the fuel has to be is a precise geometric pattern with a very precise amount of moderator per fuel ratio....

With the reactor in its melted condition; that geometric and material precision is destroyed; so we don't have to worry about criticality.

However, the heat that is being produced now is not from the chain reaction; because there isn't a chain reaction - control rods or no control rods.

What you have now is "decay heat". That's the heat that is given off just because the materials are radioactive, and control rods don't affect that.

PamW

bananas

(27,509 posts)
29. No, you can't ignore it, cooling water still has to be pumped in
Wed May 23, 2012, 06:59 PM
May 2012

Amazing how many people have been deceived by the nuclear happy-talk.
The nuclear industry's deceitful PR campaign has been wildly successful.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/08/fukushima-rising-temperatures-stability-nuclear-reactor

Rising temperatures at Fukushima raise questions over stability of nuclear plant

The amount of cooling water being injected into No 2 reactor is increased after temperature soars to over 73C

Justin McCurry in Tokyo
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 7 February 2012 23.52 EST

<snip>

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/mar/28/fukushima-reactor-radiation-levels

Fukushima reactor shows radiation levels much higher than thought

Damage from disaster so severe that clean-up expected to take decades, according to latest examination of nuclear plant

Associated Press
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 28 March 2012 02.44 EDT

<snip>

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
36. Fukushima has no control rods anymore
Thu May 24, 2012, 10:38 AM
May 2012

Because the nuclear material is a pile of slag.

Control rods absorb the neutrons. The reactor can't go critical. So it can't get hot.

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
51. "Fukushima has no control rods anymore"
Thu May 24, 2012, 03:04 PM
May 2012

So much for relying solely on control rods for one's sense of well-being and safety, eh?

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
52. When they had control rods, they were a good safety feature.
Thu May 24, 2012, 03:17 PM
May 2012

Unfortunately, they weren't allowed to update their plant design, since attempts to modernize the plant or replace it with a new plant were blocked. So when the earthquake damaged their systems, they responded poorly.

The good news is Japan's burning a lot more fossil fuels so that they can shut down their nuclear plants. I'm sure that has no environmental impact...

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
53. "When they had control rods, they were a good safety feature"
Thu May 24, 2012, 03:19 PM
May 2012

Hmm.. "Before the bullet hit him in the chest, he was in perfectly good health."

Perhaps you're starting to realize why many of us know that nuclear plants won't/ can't be safe "in perpetuity," no matter how much we might wish otherwise...

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
55. Perhaps you could take a moment and realize the alternative you're getting
Thu May 24, 2012, 03:30 PM
May 2012

I put it in that post. Japan's burning a lot more fossil fuels so that they can shut down their nuclear plants.

Congratulations! We're now closer to a 100% guaranteed disaster to avoid a potential and so-far rare disaster. How environmentally sound.

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
56. So now we're talking about coal burning, and not the OP?
Thu May 24, 2012, 03:34 PM
May 2012

Remember, the discussion started with what would happen to nuclear power plants if humans disappeared.

The answer is "nothing very good or pleasant." That, of course, is already happening in Fukushima, the consequences of which you have assiduously avoided.

And yes, with methane feedback already starting in the arctic, we're at a different kind of guaranteed disaster (rather than the guaranteed eventual nuclear one) tipping point.

Limber and brand-new thinking will be called for. I suspect corporate lobbyist talking points will have little utility in such new dialogue.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
59. You wandered into anti-nuke land.
Thu May 24, 2012, 04:04 PM
May 2012

I decided to follow. I apologize for actually attempting to have a discussion on a discussion board.

rather than the guaranteed eventual nuclear one

Well, we've got hundreds of plants that have been operating for about 50 years. So there is a track record.

1 has caused a localized disaster (Fukushima)
1 localized disaster was caused by the technicians blowing the plant up. (Chernobyl)

I'm puzzled by the people promoting a guaranteed global disaster in order to avoid a rare (so far) local disaster.

We both agree that the technology to solve the global problem hasn't been invented yet. Why is it a good idea to accelerate the global disaster? Shouldn't we avoid making "global warming" worse by turning to fossil fuels out of fear of rare nuclear disasters?

At least until we can figure out fusion power, or grid-scale storage to make solar and wind work for base-load everywhere.
 

villager

(26,001 posts)
60. Um, no. I was sticking to the OP (remember, it's about *nukes* in the aftermath of humankind)
Thu May 24, 2012, 04:09 PM
May 2012

I just added "civilian" nuclear fission to the discussion.

You actually brought up the fossil fuels. none of which will be burnt if humankind disappears!

See, it is possible to get back to the OP!

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
62. that's where you started. Then you moved on to anti-nuke
Thu May 24, 2012, 04:14 PM
May 2012

Which I pointed out has the real-world effect of being pro-coal and pro-gas.

And here we are.

So, how much CO2 should we dump into the atmosphere to avoid the (so far) small chance of a nuclear disaster?

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
63. again, the OP is about *the disappearance of humankind*
Thu May 24, 2012, 04:16 PM
May 2012

I concurred with the National Geographic, that nuke plants represent a severe hazard, even if our species vanishes.

You brought up coal burning, even though that would stop, if our species vanishes.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
67. Conversations move on from where they start.
Thu May 24, 2012, 04:27 PM
May 2012
You brought up coal burning

After you brought up getting rid of nuclear power.

So how much CO2 should we dump into the atmosphere to avoid disasters at nuclear plants?
 

villager

(26,001 posts)
68. Yes. And on discussion boards like this, they start with the OP.
Thu May 24, 2012, 05:02 PM
May 2012

Your either/or dichotomy, however, is a false one, beloved by the "green" nuclear lobby.

We can't simply build enough nuke plants to avoid any of the hard questions about consumption patterns, etc., that also fuel (pun?) the CO2 that you -- and I -- are justifiably alarmed about.

in other words, the nuke lobby sells a false bill of goods: That no hard choices lay ahead, no restructuring of society (oh and never mind the radiation in your ocean and your children!)

We can go on, they tell us, exactly as we have been, and it will all be perfectly safe.

Neither of those things is true.

But getting back to the OP, those nuke plants will be even less safe -- astonishingly -- if we disappear (as we seem hellbent on doing).

XemaSab

(60,212 posts)
69. I see it as just the opposite
Thu May 24, 2012, 05:12 PM
May 2012

I think the renewable energy people are claiming that no hard choices lie ahead.

I've seen a lot of optimism from them for years here, and while cautious optimism is justified, the fact remains that only 3.6% of our energy in 2009 came from renewable sources. Maybe the number is a lot more than that today, but at the rate we're going it will take decades for renewables to be more than half of the market.

We need 100% of the market to be carbon-free ASAP, and shutting down nuclear plants just sets the bar higher.

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
70. XemaSab, do you think they're the only ones saying no hard choices lay aheaD?
Thu May 24, 2012, 05:21 PM
May 2012

The "drill, baby!" types, the nuke plant proliferationists -- everyone says it.

We can't imagine that the whole planet can't live like 1950's-era Americans, or that we can't, anymore, either.

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
72. There are some cornucopians among 'em, but I also find many of them to be quite realistic
Thu May 24, 2012, 05:35 PM
May 2012

...in a way that completely eludes our "leaders," for example.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
7. I cannot answer your question, But I think it an excellent one
Wed May 23, 2012, 03:40 PM
May 2012

To ask about.

However, when reading over a Jeremy Rifkin book (The one about clocks and time: don't remember the title) he mentions this scarey thought about modernization and computers:

In Oct of 1987 our nation had a huge set back on Wall Street. because human beings could still interrupt the scenario, someone threw a huge wad of money at the Financial Markets and stopped the system from crashing out.

Rifkin talks about this financial mishap and then reports that due to "modernization" of the stock market trading system, the system is now under the guidance of computers. Which is one possible explanation for that other stock market dive we had back in 2009 (or maybe 2010?) No one really understood why the market took a fall, but fall it did. The big problem with the computers running the Wall St trading is that the computers "adjust" to the market going into free fall, by actually accelerating the market free fall.


And Rifkin then goes on to state that this is the same situation with the "modernization" of the military. Our computers are now more in control of the nuke situation - with far fewer allowances for human "interference."


Do you remember/ were you around back in the late seventies and early eighties when such natural phenomena as on one occasion, a full moon, and on another, extra large flocks of geese triggered panic in our defense department? Because we had human being still there to evaluate the occurring phenomena, we did not launch our missiles - despite the warnings that our radar was showing. Humans figured out that we didn't need to nuke Russia back to the stone age just because the full moon was extra close to the earth for 72 hours. Or that the geese were impacting the radar systems and setting off warnings.

Now our military is bragging about the "modernization" and computer upgrades - but this might be the end of civilization and not something that actually protects us.

Back in the Eisenhower/Kennedy era, our defense contractors were greedy, as always, but they also intervened, even at a cost to them in terms of profit, if upgrades were going to destroy civilization. Now those in charge don't care.

GreenPartyVoter

(72,381 posts)
12. I was around when the USSR could have annhilated us, and it turned out to be the sun hitting
Wed May 23, 2012, 03:52 PM
May 2012

their satellites just right and convincing them that we had launched missiles at them. The commander of the post is the only reason we're all still here, because he waited to be absolutely sure before notifying his superiors.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
15. There is no way the human decision-makers have been or will be removed
Wed May 23, 2012, 03:54 PM
May 2012

That is pure 'Terminator' inspired sensationalized bunk; not to put too fine a point on it.

I've peeked inside this command and control process; it is built solidly around the premise of multiple human judgements. But even with that there are plenty of reasons to want to get rid of that crap. Look to the onset of WWI and the spread of civilian nuclear technology into the developing world if you want to know where the nightmare scenarios are to be found.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
16. I wish I could believe you,
Wed May 23, 2012, 04:33 PM
May 2012

but here's why I trust Rifkin - back when I and just about every other activist in the world were laughing our butts off at Rifkin's warnings about our food supply, and the GM issue, he held to his message. He has been proven to be right. I was proven to be wrong.

So I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.

That is not to say that there isn't the possibility that he is wrong on this.

And I too hold your concerns about the terrorist with the suitcase bomb. Especially given with how much raw materials have been stolen and/or have gone missing. (Especially inside the former Soviet Union.)

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
17. Take it or leave it.
Wed May 23, 2012, 04:49 PM
May 2012

I was part of that system but this is a place where such claims are rightly met with extreme skepticism.

I really replied, however, to point out that terrorists with suitcase bombs are not what I was referring to.

WWI was a result of a single act of violence against an individual which spiraled into a (more or less) global conflict.

Iran's legitimate claim to the right of reprocessing and where that has led us provides background for this effort by nuclear exporting countries:
What could possibly go wrong?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/112715077

The installation of these facilities into this politically unstable region will have global security implications for the next century and we are rushing into it as if we were selling potato chips.

 

OffWithTheirHeads

(10,337 posts)
9. All I know is that even in Arizona, we can't have them in our house, car or on our person.
Wed May 23, 2012, 03:45 PM
May 2012

Pretty much everything else is O.K.

SoutherDem

(2,307 posts)
11. Interesting questions
Wed May 23, 2012, 03:52 PM
May 2012

I recommend a documentary called Countdown to Zero. I know it can be streamed on Netflix. It doesn't answer your questions but it does look into accidental launch.

I doubt they would launch themselves, there are suppose to be too many safeguards. I agree with previous answers the power plants would be the real problem.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
18. You may want to check out, "Life After People"
Wed May 23, 2012, 05:12 PM
May 2012
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22Life+After+People%22
http://www.netflix.com/Movie/Life-After-People/70092639

However, I don’t think you need to worry about the missiles and atomic bombs. Indeed, the Department of Defense is worried more about them becoming unusable, sitting and waiting without being used.

GreenPartyVoter

(72,381 posts)
19. My kids and I loved the "Life After People" series! I don't remember them discussing the
Wed May 23, 2012, 05:31 PM
May 2012

nuclear arsenal, though. Glad to know we're more in danger of having unusable bombs. Heaven forbid! LOL

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
23. I don’t recall them specifically addressing them, no
Wed May 23, 2012, 06:00 PM
May 2012

On the other hand, it should give you an idea of how long a high-tech device will be usable if it isn't maintained.

(This isn't Beneath the Planet of the Apes.)

 

provis99

(13,062 posts)
30. nuclear missles need constant maintenance or they won't work.
Wed May 23, 2012, 07:17 PM
May 2012

so if humanity disappears, all it will mean for the nuclear missles is that they will shortly become non-functional.

hunter

(38,326 posts)
31. Humans are worse than nuclear waste.
Wed May 23, 2012, 08:00 PM
May 2012

If humans vanish or we destroy ourselves then the earth's natural environment will rapidly recover.

In less than a million years it will almost be like we were never here. Nothing left of us but some peculiar fossils and a few tons of space trash.

Plutonium and nuclear waste is a big deal to people because people don't like cancers and birth defects. But nature doesn't care. If one creature doesn't thrive in an environment contaminated with our nuclear waste, then some other creature will.

If we can't protect this environment our species evolved within for ethical reasons, then we ought to be protecting it for selfish reasons.

Since we seem to be too stupid to do either we are likely to be short-timers on this planet. Most species go extinct. Looking around it seems humans won't last. Maybe our descendants will look like this, and they won't cause so much trouble:

wikipedia



What goes around come around.



 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
32. The earth has gone through catastrophes much worse than a few bombs going off
Wed May 23, 2012, 09:55 PM
May 2012

or a few reactors melting down.

For instance:
The Deccan traps covered 200,000 square miles with lava to a depth of over a mile.
The Siberian traps were over four times that big.
And the Toba supereruption reduced humanity to maybe 20,000 people.

We like to think humans have this permanent impact on the world, but the main thing we have a permanent impact on is ourselves. Without us, things will go on pretty much like we were never here - nuclear or not.

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
65. Actually a good perspective, GG. Though one wonders if the recent methane releases means
Thu May 24, 2012, 04:18 PM
May 2012

...we've unleashed some "traps" of our own...

PamW

(1,825 posts)
34. Don't worry about nuclear weapons...
Thu May 24, 2012, 10:25 AM
May 2012

Don't worry about nuclear weapons.. they don't need "attending" to stay safe.

You don't have to worry about a missile launching itself anymore than you have to worry about an airliner taking off by itself with no pilots.

I cringe every time I hear some report that our nuclear weapons are "targeted" at some spot in the northern Atlantic.

The missiles and their autopilots are OFF!! The missiles are no more "targeted" at the northern Atlantic than your web browser is locked on to Democratic Underground when your computer is SHUTDOWN and OFF.

PamW

SoutherDem

(2,307 posts)
46. Just wondering
Thu May 24, 2012, 02:16 PM
May 2012
The missiles and their autopilots are OFF!!


I have always heard many of the missiles were "targeted". This was to save time for "launch on warning" thus giving the minuteman the ability to be launched one minute after the launch order is received in the launch facility.

I agree I have never heard anyone say a missile could launch itself, as in a car cranking itself (which can happen, though extremely rare).

But, I have heard of mistakes where NORAD thought we were under attack or USSR thought we had launched on them and we really were in danger of nuclear war. But, that really isn't the question.

Could you explain "The missiles and their autopilots are OFF!!", I am not doubting you, I don't really understand what you mean and I really don't have a clue, I am just going by what I have heard my whole life and as recent as 2010.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
58. OFF is OFF
Thu May 24, 2012, 03:44 PM
May 2012

Could you explain "The missiles and their autopilots are OFF!!", I am not doubting you, I don't really understand what you mean and I really don't have a clue, I am just going by what I have heard my whole life and as recent as 2010.
============================

First, a lot of people have been telling you things all your life that are self-serving. They are attempting to convince you that missiles are on a "hair-trigger" and the slightest mistake will result in a launch that can't be recalled. They are attempting to scare you.

What I mean by "OFF" is "OFF". The missile is targeted by putting the geometric coordinates - like latitude and longitude - of the target in the memory of the autopilot's computer. Knowing that position is how the autopilot knows where to steer the missile.

What I'm telling you is the autopilot and its computer are OFF. There's no "target coordinates" loaded in a computer that is OFF. Just like when your computer is off, how would you answer the question if I asked, "What website is your computer's web browser looking at when it is OFF".

The question is meaningless!! When the computer is off, nothing is running. The web browser is not running. Therefore, the web browser isn't looking at a particular web site. It's just flat out not running.

Same with the missile. There's no "target" loaded into the missile if the autopilot computer is OFF.

It's only during the launch sequence that the missile is told where to go.

The missile is not like a gun in that it is "pointing" somewhere. Think of an airliner sitting at the gate. Is that airliner "pointed" somewhere?

NO - the only way the airliner knows where to go is when you get a pilot onboard that enters the destination into the auto-pilot. But until then, it's a meaningless question to ask where the airliner is targeted.

You have to realize that a lot of people have been BS-ing you about this because they want to scare you, and make you join them in countering some imminent danger that really doesn't exist.

PamW

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
73. AS to Nuclear Weapons..
Thu May 24, 2012, 06:33 PM
May 2012

To have a nuclear explosion you need to have something like 98% U-235 or 98% pure plutonium. U-235 breaks down into U-238, which does NOT go super critical (unless enhanced with Neutrons to become Plutonium). What is the "Super Critical" Percentage is Classified but we know it takes about 25 pounds of Uranium or 12 pounds of Plutonium to go "Super Critical". In 1946 the US issued a book on its Nuclear research. The book is part of the Classification of Nuclear weapons technology. The book gave out a lot of information the Scientists on the Manhattan Project thought other scientists should know, but kept what they thought was needed to make an actual nuclear device secret. Thus we know the Weight of the Hiroshima And Nagasaki Bombs, but NOT the percentage of U-235 in the Hiroshima bomb or the percentage of Plutonium in the Nagasaki bomb.

Anything less then whatever is the Super Critical mass percentage, you do NOT have enough Uranium or Plutonium to go "Super critical" (i.e. what we call the Nuclear bomb "exploding&quot . It is estimated that given the nature of Uranium and Plutonium (i.e. being radioactive, they are constantly breaking down into other elements), it takes no more then 5-10 years for the percentage of U-235 and Plutonium to drop below what is needed to go "Super Critical". Some indication is that it may be less time (i.e. 2 years) but the exact percentage is classified (The decay rate is NOT, for that is well known, the issue is what is the point when the AMOUNT of Uranium or Plutonium falls below what is needed to go Super-Critical).

If the Nuclear device is on a Rocket, if it is a liquid fuel rockets (As were the First ICBMs, the Atlas also used in the Mercury Launches and the Titan IIs, also used in the Gemini project) then within about a month enough Hydrogen would have leaked out to make the rocket useless. Liquid Hydrogen leaks at the rate of 1% per day from any container, not from leaks, but right through the walls of the Container. Hydrogen is the smallest atom, when liquidlified it is even smaller. Thus the Hydrogen atoms and easily squeeze through the atoms of any container, thus the 1% per day leakage rate.

Solid Fuel Missiles (Such as the Minuteman missiles) do NOT have the problem of hydrogen leaking, thus can last forever, in theory. In these weapons the limitation is thus the ability of the warhead to go super critical (i.e. explode) AND the ability to keep rodents out of them so that enough material is left to actually fire the system. In affect after 5-10 years of neglect even these would be useless.

Now, Nuclear power plants do NOT need "Weapons Grade" nuclear material (Whatever that is, I suspect 98% or more Uranium or Plutonium), the uranium they use tend to be in the 20% grade level. Enough to go "Super-critical" to make power and even cause a nuclear meltdown, as in Chernobyl and Fukushima. Many of the writers above, get hung up on Nuclear Power, which your question does NOT ask about, and ignore Nuclear Weapons, which is what your question is about. I hope I have done the opposite ignore Nuclear power plants and concentrated on Nuclear bombs.

In simple terms, the Nuclear devices will NOT be capable of exploding within 5-10 years of neglect. Some missiles will no longer work after 30 days, but most (the Solid fuel Missiles) will outlast the ability of the warhead to go boom. I have ignore the electrical power needed to launch such missiles, no power no launch, but most such power is very secure and would outlast the warheads (underground bunkers with backup automatic generators, would run till out of fuel 30-60 days after the generators start to generate i.e. after all other electrical power is shut off). \

Side note: Most the Uranium and Plutonium in these missiles (or hangers if you include the bombs kept for use on planes) will still be highly radioactive, but not enough to do any damage i.e not enough nuclear material IN THE WARHEADS to cause a melt down. The material will just sit there until the missile collapse under them to do age, then sit where ever they may fall till the material decay to non-radioactive materials. These weapon grade levels of Uranium and Plutonium are in terms of mass way less then in a nuclear power plant. In a plant you can have enough nuclear material to cause a chain reaction (go Super Critical) but NOT at the pace to cause what we would call a "Boom". Instead you could have enough at one spot to go super-critical and then fall to the center of the earth, for there would be nothing to stop it.

According to some recent research, the reason the Earth is Volcanic is that when the earth was formed Uranium, being the heaviest element, fell to the extreme center and then form a natural nuclear reactor (Thus the background radiation all over the world). This natural nuclear reactor produced so much heat that it has kept the surrounding iron liquid so that we have a molten core, which permits the continents of "move" and Volcanoes to exist. Just pointing out Nuclear power will exist for millions of years to come, will this center runs out of Uranium and cools down (and the Continents stop moving and the earth dies). Uranium is not bad in itself, but bad if used incorrectly or carelessly. The nature of Nuclear weapons is that unless someone uses them within a few years of making them OR rebuild them to keep them active, they will naturally become useless as weapons within less then 10 years. The Actual nuclear material can still kill people for thousands of years, but not enough to go super critical and melt to the center of the earth, unlike Nuclear plants when that can happen given the serve volume of Nuclear material used in such plants.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
76. NOT TRUE!!
Thu May 24, 2012, 08:09 PM
May 2012

The nature of Nuclear weapons is that unless someone uses them within a few years of making them OR rebuild them to keep them active, they will naturally become useless as weapons within less then 10 years.
=================

That's NOT TRUE. The USA has nuclear weapons in its enduring stockpile that are a few decades old. In fact, the last "new" weapons were designed in the late '80s. So the USA's newest weapons are about 30 years old, and the US nuclear weapons labs still certify them as reliable and safe.

The US weapons labs do LEP - Life Extension Programs on weapons to essentially bring them up to date as you might your computer:

Extending the Life of an Aging Weapon

https://str.llnl.gov/Mar12/obrien.html

The weapons labs research new tools / methods for non-destructive testing, some of which have other applicaitons:

Weapons Diagnostic Technology Revolutionizes Cancer Treatment

https://str.llnl.gov/OctNov11/caporaso.html

Enhancing Confidence in the Nation's Nuclear Stockpile

https://str.llnl.gov/JulAug10/allen.html

Deterrence with a Minimum Nuclear Stockpile

https://str.llnl.gov/JulAug10/comJulAug10.html

in which Principal Associate Director Goodwin of LLNL states:

SOME people think of the nation’s nuclear weapons as immutable and inert objects sitting somewhere on a shelf, sometimes for decades, but capable of performing flawlessly if they are ever needed. In truth, nuclear weapons are more like vastly complex chemical experiments slowly evolving in ways we are still coming to fully understand. Inside these aging systems, metals can corrode and weaken, plastics can break down and release destructive gases, and other components, subject to continuous high radiation and external temperature extremes, can behave and interact in unforeseen ways.

Hope that is illuminating.

PamW

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
78. The "Weapons" can last, but NOT the Uranium or Plutonium in them
Thu May 24, 2012, 10:11 PM
May 2012

One report I read said any nuclear weapon had to have its "Atomic" elements (in that case Hydrogen element of a Hydrogen bomb) replaced at least every four years. The bomb itself is designed to last for DECADES, but that includes the plan to replace its Uranium, Hydrogen and/or Plutonium on a regular basis. The exact schedule is classified, but that is inherent in the design.

Your data reflects the WEAPON itself NOT the nuclear elements. It is like saying an M1 Tank can last for 20-40 years, which is true, but that includes numerous replacements of its tracks, its engine and even it cannon. The same can be said of the M16 rifle. Barrel life of an M16 is about 24,000 rounds. Most M16 in actual combat uses that in about two years (1000 rounds a month for 24 months). Thus the barrel has to be replaced, but the actual rifle can last for decades.

During WWII, the Us had a hard time keeping up is M1 rifle production, with the troops switching to armor piecing rounds in late 1944 onward, almost all of the rifles needed new barrels by the time the German's surrender (One of the reason, the US made a firm decision NOT to go to war with Russia in 1945, was the knowledge that almost every the M1 Rifle in the hand of US Soldiers in Europe needed to be sent home and re-barreled).

The M1 Rifle was used till the 1960s (it was the Rifle carried by the National Guardsmen at Kent State in 1970). The barrel had been replaced many times since it was produced by the time it was replaced by the M16 (Technically the M14 replaced the M1 in 1957, but in most National Guard units it was M16 replacing M1s not M14s). Thus M1 rifles were still in service in 1970 but most had had several barrels over their life time (and many M1s survive to this day, many in civilian hands being fired a lot less then it had been in combat, but the barrels still have to be changed every so often do to the fact the barrel is shot out).

I bring up these other weapons so you understand what you are reading. These are the life expectancy of these weapons NOT the underlying ability of the nuclear parts to go super critical. No one says the M16 is a rifle only good for two to four years, they say it is a rifle good for 20-40 years, even through its barrel has to be replaced every 2-4 years of heavy usage. The M1 Tanks is expected to last for decades, even through most will have their electronics changed in addition to new engines, transmissions and tracks, many of these on a almost yearly basis.

The scientists you are citing, accept the requirement that the nuclear parts of the bomb has to be replaced on a regular basis. In fact most of the Atomic Testing of the 1950s and 1960s (and later) was to see how low the percentage of nuclear elements can go and the bomb still work (most of the underground testing post test ban was on this subject more then how to make a bigger bomb). Most of that knowledge is well known so most testing today is to use that data to give new weapons a longer shelf life between getting new nuclear components.

Just a comment that what I was discussing is like the barrel of an M16, or an Tank Engine, something that has to be replaced every so often to keep the weapon usable. What you are citing assume such replacements take place and they are looking at the life time of the weapons independent of such regular replacements of parts.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
80. WRONG!!!! WRONG!!! WRONG!!!
Fri May 25, 2012, 10:27 AM
May 2012

You are just plain flat out WRONG about this.

Evidently, you didn't read the article I posted from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory written by Principal Associate Director Goodwin who oversees the nuclear weapons program at LLNL. Dr. Goodwin states in his article:

https://str.llnl.gov/JulAug10/comJulAug10.html

"For example, in a scientific tour de force, Livermore and Los Alamos researchers in 2006 announced that the plutonium aging inside modern U.S. nuclear weapons should not be a concern for nearly a century. "

In 2007, the US Congress asked the prestigious group of scientific advisers called the "JASONS" to review the studies done by the weapons labs with regard to the longevity of the Plutonium in the US nuclear weapons. The part of the weapon that contains the Plutonium is called the "pit" which is part of the "primary". The JASONs CONFIRMED the long-life of Plutonium claimed by Los Alamos and Lawrence Livermore.

Courtesy of the Federation of American Scientists, here is the report from the JASONS:

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dod/jason/pit.pdf

which states in the Executive Summary on page 1 the following:

"Most primary types have credible minimum lifetimes in excess of 100 years as regards aging of plutonium; those with assessed minimum lifetimes of 100 years or less have clear mitigation paths that are proposed and/or being implemented."

Evidently you also didn't read one of the other reports I cited from Lawrence Livermore:

https://str.llnl.gov/JulAug10/allen.html

For several years, a key thrust of enhanced surveillance centered on studying the properties and aging of plutonium pits found in every modern nuclear weapon. In 2006, the two NNSA nuclear design laboratories—Lawrence Livermore and Los Alamos—issued a joint report stating that “subtle age-induced changes in the atomic structure and composition of plutonium do not, in themselves, limit the lifetime of U.S. weapon pits” and “the majority of plutonium pits for most nuclear weapons have minimum lifetimes of at least 85 years.” That finding has permitted Livermore stockpile stewards to shift the focus of their attention to obtaining a better scientific understanding of how other weapon materials and components age and interact during the decades they remain in the stockpile.

It's NOT the Plutonium and Uranium that age in weapons. It's OTHER parts.

Quit pretending you know about nuclear design and nuclear testing. You don't have the clearance to know what you claim to know.

PamW

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
81. You cite some interesting articles
Fri May 25, 2012, 03:48 PM
May 2012

From the first article:

The report discusses the need over the next two decades for several weapon systems to undergo “overhauls” called life-extension programs (LEPs). These programs significantly extend a weapon’s useful lifetime by refurbishing or replacing critical parts; they also result in weapon systems that are safer to transport and store and more resistant to attack by terrorists..

Overhauls is what I was talking about, thus even the first article assumes such overhauls will take place.

The Second Article you cite has some interesting information, first that Plutonium has a half like of 14.4 years. Thus after 14.4 years, if you started with 10 pounds of Plutonium you will only have 5 pounds. (page 10 of the report). Now Plutonium does NOT break down directly into non-usable material, but it does break down into Am-241.

This also means the report is on PU-241, not PU-239, both can be and used in bombs, but PU-239 is preferred (again from non-Classified sources).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium#Nuclear_fission

The report also does NOT state at what point the Plutonium is no longer sufficient to cause a nuclear chain reaction (And I suspect it is mentioned in the Classified parts of the report, which I do NOT want to read for I do NOT want access to Classified information). Wikipedia report that "Weapons Grade" Plutonium contains less then 7% PU-240, but does not state what other elements are needed (i.e. what percentage of PU-239 is needed to make an Plutonium bomb to work).

Lets remember PU-239 is the isotope of Plutonium used in bombs. and it has a half life of 24,100 years, yet it is NOT mentioned in the report. Thus goes to what was the report about, and what parts were classified (I assume for some good reason).

The third report points out other problems in Nuclear devices, Hydrogen and other contamination and deterioration of the explosives needed in a Plutonium bomb. Both are mention as forcing the repair of the weapon well before the Plutonium needs to be replaced, but the more I read it, while true, does not exclude the possibility that an upgrade of the plutonium is needed at the same time (i.e. The Plutonium in the bomb will last over a century, for each time the weapon is upgrades for other reasons, it will be upgraded, thus it will last a century before it has to be totally replaced as opposed to merely "upgraded". "Upgrading" is a broad term, which can be anything from a new coat of paint to a whole new plutonium core).

Sorry your article, if carefully read, do NOT exclude my point. They dance around the point I was making for the very reason what I was discussing is more likely highly classified, so that even knowing the classification level is classified. Just the Nature of the beast. both good and bad.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
82. Another thing that is NOT classified
Fri May 25, 2012, 04:18 PM
May 2012

Another thing that is NOT classified is that the USA no longer makes Plutonium and hasn't for decades.

Plutonium was created in the reactors at Hanford and Savannah River. The last production reactor in operation at Hanford was N-Reactor which was shutdown in 1987:

http://www.hanford.gov/page.cfm/NReactor

The N Reactor operated from 1963 until 1987 when it was shut down for routine maintenance, refueling, and safety upgrades. However, it was never re-started.

As far as the reactors at Savannah River, the last one was shutdown in 1988. See page 23 at:

http://www.em.doe.gov/pdfs/pubpdfs/linklegacy_011_030.pdf

P, L, K, and C reactors continued to operate at the Savannah River Site until late 1988.

The following is from the Federation of American Scientists with regard to Plutonium production:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/plutonium.htm

Weapon-grade plutonium has different characteristics. It contains mainly Pu-239 which has a half-life of 24 000 years and only very small quantities of Pu-241 (unlike reactor-grade plutonium which can contain around 15% Pu-241.)

Although the exact percentage of Pu-239 in weapons fuel is not known; it has to be greater than 85%. That's because we DO KNOW that "reactor-grade" plutonium is 15% Pu-241 and thus is 85% Pu-239. So the weapons grade plutonium, which has a greater percentage than reactor grade has to therefore be >85% Pu-239. So at least 85% of the plutonium has a half-life of 24,100 years. So that means that the bulk of the plutonium is NOT disappearing very fast.

The last production reactor was shutdown in 1988. So the USA hasn't had the ability to make new Plutonium for decades. So ALL the Plutonium in US weapons is more than 20 years old, and you said the Plutonium goes bad in 5-10 years.

So the fact that the USA does NOT have the ability to make new Plutonium, means all our weapons are certified reliable and safe with Plutonium that is greater than 20 years old. The Plutonium can't be replaced because we aren't making any new Plutonium to replace it with.

PamW



AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
99. Oh, there's lots of plutonium.
Thu May 31, 2012, 02:12 PM
May 2012

There's racks and racks of extracted pits from decommissioned weapons. All of that can be reprocessed and built into a new pit.

The CMRR-NF limits production. Los Alamos would like to increase pit production from 15/year to 50/year by 2015. For exactly the reason the other poster suggested, but on a much longer timeline than 5-10 years, of course. They don't go bad that fast by any means.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
86. If the human race disappears, there is no one around to care what happens next.
Tue May 29, 2012, 11:03 AM
May 2012

So the relevant question is what happens to the biosphere.

Most life forms have shorter life spans than humans and higher reproduction rates. Lower life forms are also more radiation resistant.

So even with the increased radiation causing more cancer in higher organisms and more genetic mutations, the biosphere probably benefits from reduced competition with humans and due to more rapid introduction of new species into the now open ecological niches.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
87. None of our reactors are currently 'walk away safe'.
Tue May 29, 2012, 07:07 PM
May 2012

Some naval reactors probably feature that. In the civilian markets, the AP1000 was, to my knowledge, the first stab at a walk-away-safe industrial reactor.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
89. Argonne's Integral Fast Reactor is inherently safe..
Thu May 31, 2012, 10:29 AM
May 2012

Some naval reactors probably feature that. In the civilian markets, the AP1000 was, to my knowledge, the first stab at a walk-away-safe industrial reactor.
============

Argonne's Integral Fast Reactor is inherently safe, and the IFR prototype demonstrated that back in 1986:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/reaction/interviews/till.html

Q: The other aspect of the integral fast reactor is that it's one of a type of what's called passive reactors. What does this mean?

A: Well, the IFR has characteristics that are really quite different and superior to any other reactor that has yet been tried, because in the very nature of the materials that are used, it does not allow the reactor to be harmed in any way by the kinds of accidents that typically can happen to reactors, or indeed any other large plant. The electricity-producing plant reactor has a lot of valves, a lot of pumps, a lot of mechanical things that can go wrong. And the thing that you don't want to happen is to have the coolant, at once cooling the reactor and also then acting as the source of heat for steam to produce electricity. You don't want that flow to stop. That's what happened at TMI. That's what happened at Chernobyl. And if it does stop, then what happens? And in the IFR what happens is, the reactor just shuts itself down. There's no mechanical devices needed to do that. There's no operator interaction. There isn't anything. It's just in the nature of materials. When the coolant flow stops, the reaction stops. That's remarkable.

Q: So it's inherently safe.

A: So it's inherently safe. It's a remarkable feature.

Q: And you in fact ran an experiment that was comparable to what happened at Chernobyl?

A: Yes, yes. Let me go on a little bit about that, because it is a rather dramatic characteristic. The Chernobyl accident happened in April 26 of 1986. Earlier that month, the first week in April, with our test reactor in Idaho, in fact the same reactor control room where we're now sitting, we performed a demonstration of that characteristic, where if you cut off the coolant from the reactor, what would happen? And there are two ways to cut off the coolant. One is that simply the pumps that are pumping the reactor stop. The reactor just shut itself down. And in the afternoon, we brought the reactor back up to full power again and did an accident situation where the reactor's unable to get rid of the heat it produces, because the heat normally is taken away by the electrical system, and so we isolated the electrical system from the plant, and the reactor then has to deal with the heat it produces itself. Again, another real accident situation. Again, the reactor just quietly shut itself down.

PamW

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
90. Hmm. That's not why Chernobyl exploded...
Thu May 31, 2012, 10:51 AM
May 2012

But interesting info on the IFR. I'll have to read more about it.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
91. WRONG - that IS why Chernobyl exploded..
Thu May 31, 2012, 11:07 AM
May 2012

The Chernobyl RBMK had a number of design defects.

One was that it was "over-moderated" and hence had a positive temperature coefficient. That is when the reactor got hot, the reactor wanted to INCREASE in power as it got hotter. The IFR is the opposite, it had a negative temperature coefficient.

Additionally, the operators were performing their experiment in the middle of the Xenon transient. The original plan was to carry out the experiment right after they lowered power. However, the load controller in Kiev called and asked the plant to remain online at reduced power. They were finally released to go offline about 12 hours later.

When you shutdown or lower the power on a reactor, it undergoes something called a "Xenon transient" in which you get a temporary build up of the very potent neutron poison Xe-135. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenon-135

Failing to manage this xenon transient properly caused the Chernobyl reactor power to overshoot ~100x normal causing a steam explosion.[citation needed] The xenon burn-out rate is proportional to neutron flux and thus reactor power. If reactor power doubles, the xenon burns out twice as quickly. The larger the rate of increase in reactor power, the faster the xenon burns out and the more quickly reactor power increases.

The power increase due to the loss of coolant flow as induced by the experiment was the trigger. (Coolant flow decrease -> increase temperature -> higher power -> runaway ) Once that happened, the unstable nature of an over-moderated reactor, augmented by the Xenon-induced instability, sealed Chernobyl #4 reactor's fate.

PamW

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
92. I wouldn't call the xenon poisoning 'augmenting'.
Thu May 31, 2012, 11:38 AM
May 2012

As the xenon bled away, power rose so quickly water coolant couldn't be kept liquid. In that manner, I suppose you could say it was a loss of coolant flow, but really, the mistake was running the reactor so long at partial power, and then attempting to return to full power. (and they were told not to do this, and it was policy to shut it all the way down, not return to full power from partial power)

The reactor core was a bit like an aircraft, flying at the edge of, and in a stall, entering a cave. They increased power, the aircraft comes out of the stall, suddenly gains lift, and wham, you hit the ceiling.

Coolant, control rods, nothing could stop it. The loss of coolant wasn't the cause. Operator error was.


The negative temperature coefficient of the IFR is an interesting safety feature. Pretty cool, so to speak.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
93. Xenon Instability plus a trigger...
Thu May 31, 2012, 12:04 PM
May 2012

First, they were NOT attempting to return to full power.

They were running a previously scheduled experiment. They wanted to answer the question if the residual steam in the system could provide shutdown cooling if they had a loss of coolant accident.

So they triggered a loss of coolant accident by shutting down the pumps. They had ZERO intention to return to power. They wanted to see if they could shutdown without the use of the stand-by diesels. It's what many asked if Fukushima could have done.

The reactor was in an unstable state due to its normal instability in being over-moderated. That normal instability was "augmented" to a very great degree by the Xenon transient. So they had a very unstable reactor. However, having instability isn't enough to have the problem. You need to "seed" the instability.

That's what cutting off the coolant did. The higher temperature due to coolant loss caused higher power due to positive temperature coefficient. The power rise fed into the Xenon instability - and away you go.

http://www.energybandgap.com/power-generation/chernobyl-nuclear-disaster/

What were the causes of the Chernobyl Disaster? The accident happened during an experiment to improve the safety and security of the nuclear reactor. The two primary explanations are testing the limits of the reactor design, and blaming the operators for making mistakes and violating safety rules.


It was operator error in conducting an experiment under conditions that the experiment was not planned for.

But mechanistically; the triggering event WAS coolant loss.

PamW

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
94. I disagree.
Thu May 31, 2012, 12:17 PM
May 2012

"The reactor was now only producing around 5 percent of the minimum initial power level established as safe for the test.[23] 3 Control-room personnel consequently made the decision to restore power by extracting the majority of the reactor control rods to their upper limits.[26] Several minutes elapsed between their extraction and the point that the power output began to increase and subsequently stabilize at 160–200 MW (thermal), a much smaller value than the planned 700 MW. The rapid reduction in the power during the initial shutdown, and the subsequent operation at a level of less than 200 MW led to increased poisoning of the reactor core by the accumulation of xenon-135.[27][28] This restricted any further rise of reactor power, and made it necessary to extract additional control rods from the reactor core in order to counteract the poisoning."


Perhaps not a return to full power, but to increase power, regardless.

Increasing coolant flow actually contributed to the excursion. They ended up bringing all of the coolant close to the temp where it flashes over to steam.

The entire reactor configuration at the time was outside the bounds of the design limits, AND the parameters of the test. Operator error.

They wanted the reactor at 700mw thermal, not 30mw thermal. That is when the xenon poisoning occurred. Loss of coolant really cannot be considered any more than half responsible for the excursion, mechanically.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
95. The final event...
Thu May 31, 2012, 12:24 PM
May 2012

All of what you said happened BEFORE the explosion.

The reactor went sub-critical several times due to Xenon, and they "restored" it ( not to full power ) but to the power level for the test.

They exceeded control rod withdrawal limits, in attempt to keep the reactor critical.

All that was for setting up for this experiment.

However, when they thought they had everything ready for the experiment; they cut the power to the coolant pumps.

It looks like we are citing the same Wikipedia entry. Go to the part after what you quoted to the heading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

Experiment and Explosion

At 1:23:04 a.m. the experiment began. Four (of eight total) Main Circulating Pumps (MCP) were active. The steam to the turbines was shut off, and a run down of the turbine generator began.


Cutting the steam power to the coolant pump turbines was the coupe de grace.

That was the final error in a chain of errors.

PamW

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
96. Those pumps were still spinning.
Thu May 31, 2012, 01:06 PM
May 2012

Flow was reduced, but not halted. The residual momentum of the turbines kept the circulating pumps energized. Then the diesels took over the load.

The coupe de grace was the SCRAM, whether automatic or human induced, because the control rods displaced coolant before having any shutdown effect on the core, jammed, burned, exploded, etc.

That's when all hell broke loose.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
97. The pumps didn't have to stop...
Thu May 31, 2012, 01:31 PM
May 2012

The pumps didn't have to stop.

The Wikipedia article is out of date with respect to the latest modeling.

The mere reduction in coolant flow triggered a temperature increase.

The increased temperature caused increased power - the reactivity temperature coefficient was positive.

The increased power caused more increased power - due to Xenon instability.

The Wiki article states that there was some concern that the scram was activated AFTER the start of the explosion.

The most recent modeling indicates that is the case.

The last fatal action of the operators was the cutoff of the steam to the coolant pump turbines. THAT is the fatal action.

The scram was incidental. Control rods even with followers don't have enough reactivity to trigger the explosion.

PamW

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
98. The rods moved.
Thu May 31, 2012, 02:02 PM
May 2012

The simple fact they moved indicated neither explosion had yet occurred. Timing seems incredibly convenient if the rods weren't the element that pushed it over the edge.

The rods displaced coolant prior to introducing a moderator.


"The increased power caused more increased power - due to Xenon instability."

Negative. Without the temperature increase, the power would have increased anyway, due to the xenon wearing off. With the xenon out of the way, the neutrons can travel freely and reactivity goes up.

Look to the retrofit of the other RBMK reactors still in service, the primary change being in the control rods. They no longer displace water, when inserting the rods. This reduces the variability of the reactivity of the core, due to steam voids, because there is no water in the control rod channel to displace, or lose to steam, at all.

I would like to see the model you reference, but from everything I have reviewed to date, even outside the wiki article, points to the attempt to scram as being the ignition point of the explosion. Without scramming the core, they may have been able to feed the circ pumps with electricity from the other reactors, and introduce more coolant, and back away from the edge, in hindsight.

Interesting bits and bobs on the spin-down residual cooling of the main circ pumps on an RBMK reactor (ignalina) where all pumps tripped simultaneously in 1986.
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/stni/2008/672519/

I would say, the only major remaining flaw of the RBMK reactors (gen three, post-Chernobyl modifications) is the lack of a containment. They still have the pvc issue, due to the design, but the leeway for an excursion has been drastically reduced with the modifications.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
100. That's part of it.
Thu May 31, 2012, 02:13 PM
May 2012

First, the process is very complex. But I'm not just waving my hands and thinking off the top of my head.

I was involved in an extremely detailed computer modeling of the accident, and I know of what I speak.

You have the trigger backwards. Xenon instability responds to increased neutron flux, hence increased power.

In order to get the increased power - the reactivity temperature coefficient induced the power increase.

It's thermal effect due to pump cutoff triggers increased power due to temperature coefficient, which only THEN triggers the Xenon induced runaway.

The followers on the control rods were identified as contributory - but the accident would have happened anyway. They fixed it because you fix even contributory flaws.

I was working at Argonne National Labs back then - and we did EXTENSIVE computer modeling.

Lack of containment is by FAR NOT the only remaining flaw.

The RBMK are all over-moderated. An RBMK is essentially 8 Soviet production reactors stacked in a cube ( 2 X 2 X 2 ).

That lowers the leakage relative to if you had them all separate. Therefore you need LESS moderator.

However, the RBMK was fueled with the SAME fuel as the production reactors, with the SAME moderator to fuel ratio which is appropriate to a reactor that leaks neutrons TWICE as much as the RBMK .

PamW

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
101. I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree to disagree until I see this model.
Thu May 31, 2012, 04:54 PM
May 2012

I strongly disagree with the language you have used to describe this:

"You have the trigger backwards. Xenon instability responds to increased neutron flux, hence increased power. "

That is entirely backwards to my understanding. The Xenon inhibits the reaction until neutrons have burned enough of it away, hence the lack of power increase when they withdrew the control rods, expecting it to crank up to 700mw thermal. The reaction increases as the xenon is removed. The increase in reaction accelerates the removal of the Xe by the neutrons, and power spikes. That's bad, when you have a cooling issue.

I stand by my earlier assertion, the coolant/void issue is only part of the mechanical trigger for the explosion. The Xe issue being the other half of the power spike. The SCRAM just pulled the trigger.

Did your model show a proper course of action to prevent the explosion, prior to the SCRAM, with or without 'saving' the reactor for future production use?

PamW

(1,825 posts)
102. Let's go through the reactor physics..
Fri Jun 1, 2012, 01:51 AM
Jun 2012

Let's go through the reactor physics.

You are correct that the Xenon is a poison that is inhibiting criticality. However, the Xenon can be burned away leading to increased reactivity. Therefore, the Xenon inhibits until some other mechanism increases the neutron flux to burn away some Xenon, and off we go...

How do we get something to increase the neutron flux, which means increasing power. There are control rods with absorber and graphite tips. Graphite tips would normally increase reactivity due to increased moderation. However, the Soviet RBMK is already over-moderated. It has too much moderator for the fuel it has already. This in itself leads to a source of instability. So inserting graphite doesn't really do much to increase power and certainly inserting the control poison part of the rods reduces power. So where do we get a mechanism to increase power and thus increase flux to burn away some Xenon.

The RBMK is over-moderated. There is an optimal amount of moderator for a given reactor design. If you plot reactivity vs amount of moderator, you get a hump-shaped curve. Now in the USA, we require that all reactors be "under-moderated". That is the amount of moderator is to the left of the optimal; i.e. the amount of moderator is less than optimal. This makes the reactor stable. If you increase power, you increase temperature, and your moderator material expands, and you lose some moderating capability. So if you go to the hump curve, and your initial point is on the up-slope to the left of the peak, the lowering of moderator capability moves the point to the left, and hence downward to stay on the curve, and your reactivity goes down. That's what you want to be stable; an increase in power lowers the reactivity and moves the reactor back to its original power. It's negative feedback and that is stable.

If you instead have a reactor that is over-moderated, the point is on the right of the peak on the down-slope. This means you have too much moderator to be optimal. When the reactor power goes up, then the reactor gets hotter, and moderator expands and you lose moderating capability due to a less dense moderator; the point moves to the left again. However, in order to stay on the curve, the reactivity increases. That increases the power, which leads to hotter moderator, even less dense moderator, and it moves the point further left which increase reactivity.....and you have a vicious cycle. If the reactor is over-moderated, you have a positive feedback system, and that is unstable.

Our computer modeling showed that it was the temperature feedback due to the over-moderated instability that was the trigger; and NOT the control rod scram. The graphite tip insertion just doesn't have enough reactivity effect in an over-moderated reactor to give you enough of a trigger. But the reactivity insertion due to the temperature increase sure does.

So the sequence is the following. The operators turn off steam to the coolant pump turbines. That leads to increased temperatures. Due to the over-moderated condition, we have a positive temperature feedback so that the increased temperature increases reactivity, which increases power.

That increased power is what depletes Xenon, which leads to higher reactivity, depleting more Xenon, and off we go....

The timing of the scram and movement of the control rods was incidental. The reactivity excursion was well underway when the scram happened. Scram or no scram; the reactor was running away due to the temperature excursion.

PamW

PamW

(1,825 posts)
103. Over-moderated reactors
Sat Jun 2, 2012, 04:16 PM
Jun 2012

I have an analogy that may help you understand about over-moderated reactors.

Have you ever adjusted the fuel mixture set screw on a small gasoline engine like on a lawn mower?

If you turn the screw to lean out the mixture too much, the engine sputters and doesn't run well.

If you turn the screw to make the mixture too rich, the engine also sputters and doesn't run well.

If you get the screw positioned to get the optimal fuel / air mixture - the engine roars to life.

The over-moderated reactor is like the engine with the screw set too rich. Even if you inject more fuel into the chamber, you don't get more power. The engine is already "flooded" with fuel and you are giving it more. The engine in that condition doesn't need more fuel, it needs more oxygen.

The over-moderated reactor is like that. It already has all the moderator it needs; and shoving graphite control rod followers into the core isn't going to increase power.

In order to trigger the runaway due to the Xenon instability; we need something that increases the power, and hence increases the reactivity. Since the reactor is over-moderated, we get more reactivity by doing something that decreases moderator, like backing off on the set screw to lean the mix.

The temperature excursion caused by the cutoff of coolant pump power gives us the necessary trigger. Less cooling means temperatures go up; which means moderator expands with temperature, and hence we get a decrease in moderation because our moderator is less dense because it got hotter.

Dr. Till is correct about Chernobyl. In fact, he was the leader of the Argonne National Laboratory team that did the analysis.

PamW

 

Texas-Limerick

(93 posts)
88. Hickory Dickory Dock
Tue May 29, 2012, 08:43 PM
May 2012

The mouse ran out of the clock
His job was to make it spin
But with radiation rolling in
He knew all time would stop

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