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kristopher

(29,798 posts)
Sat Apr 21, 2012, 01:18 PM Apr 2012

Nuclear industry and its pols caught in another backhanded deal

To form the majority needed for the present UK government the conservatives had to ally themselves with the LibDems. Part of the deal was that since the LibDems believed that spending money on nuclear power was an impediment to the fight against climate change, and since the Conservatives were dead set on building new nuclear power, there was a compromise needed in this area. The LibDems agreed to not impede the building of nuclear plants if and only if they could be built with no subsidies. Of course, since new reactors simply cannot be built without transferring the risk to the tax/rate payers (which is a form of subsidies) the conservatives have been trying since day one to wriggle and squirm out of the deal.
Background from 2010: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jun/16/coalition-support-new-nuclear-power

Here is the latest chapter in that saga...

Ministers planning 'hidden subsidies' for nuclear power

...

The Guardian has also seen a presentation made by Scottish & Southern Energy to MPs last month, saying the plans contain "hidden subsidies", will be open to challenge on legal grounds, and could "mess up" funding for renewables. Hall commented: "I have not seen the SSE presentation but even the nuclear industry accepts this is a covert subsidy."

...

The leaked document, a submission to the European commission, which the government has confirmed as genuine, says: "Our reforms will put in place a regulatory framework based on feed-in tariffs for all low-carbon technologies, which will allow younger technologies to mature so that in the near- to mid-term future they will be able to compete in the open market … in time, we expect that this regulatory framework will enable different low-carbon technologies to compete against each other on a level playing field for their appropriate role in the energy mix."

This is the clearest evidence yet of government plans to subsidise nuclear power through the back door, by classifying it with renewables as "low-carbon power", despite repeated assurances that there would be no public subsidy. In the coalition agreement subsidies to nuclear are explicitly ruled out. It said: "Liberal Democrats have long opposed any new nuclear construction. Conservatives, by contrast, are committed to allowing the replacement of existing nuclear power stations provided that they are subject to the normal planning process for major projects (under a new National Planning Statement), and also provided that they receive no public subsidy."

The government is already facing a crisis over its hopes for a fleet of new reactors to replace ageing generators. This week French company GDF Suez warned it would need increased financial incentives, including a strengthened price on carbon dioxide, to go ahead with its building plans. This followed the shock cancellation by German companies E.ON and RWE npower, partners in the Horizon consortium, of their plans to build new plants at Wylfa, Wales and Oldbury, Gloucestershire.

...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/apr/20/coalition-u-turn-nuclear-energy-subsidies
9 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Nuclear industry and its pols caught in another backhanded deal (Original Post) kristopher Apr 2012 OP
By hook or by crook madokie Apr 2012 #1
Is Germany's FIT a public subsidy? FBaggins Apr 2012 #2
No one denies renewables are getting subsidies. kristopher Apr 2012 #3
Were you going to get around to answering the question? FBaggins Apr 2012 #4
I did. Supporters of FiTs have never said it isn't a subsidy. kristopher Apr 2012 #5
Of course they have... but that wasn't the question. FBaggins Apr 2012 #6
Of course I do. Just like everyone else. So what? kristopher Apr 2012 #7
You seriously going to stick with that? FBaggins Apr 2012 #8
Since you've obviously run from the issue. FBaggins Apr 2012 #9

madokie

(51,076 posts)
1. By hook or by crook
Sun Apr 22, 2012, 07:33 AM
Apr 2012

thats the way of the nuclear power industry. On a level playing field we'd have no nuclear power plants today. I'm convinced of that.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
3. No one denies renewables are getting subsidies.
Mon Apr 23, 2012, 02:53 PM
Apr 2012

The reasoning is that nuclear generation is a mature industry that has received 60 years of heavy subsidies and has demonstrated a negative learning curve; meaning the more we learn about it the more expensive it becomes. It is not regarded as a scalable solution to climate change nor is it considered sustainable.

Renewables have received only a small fraction of the support of nuclear power over the same period but with that it has demonstrated a very strong positive learning curve with steadily declining prices. A distributed system built around renewables is unquestionably scalable but it is incompatible with a centralized thermal system and is regarded as the desired sustainable solution to climate change.


The fact that they share a single temporary characteristic (nuclear's carbon emissions would rise sharply if scaled to be a significant global energy source) does not outweigh the way the remainder of the operational characteristics of nuclear confound the path to the most effective solution to the goal of a carbon free energy infrastructure.

FBaggins

(26,743 posts)
4. Were you going to get around to answering the question?
Mon Apr 23, 2012, 03:13 PM
Apr 2012

Supporters of the FIT insisted that it was not a public subsidy.

Do you agree or don't you?

FBaggins

(26,743 posts)
6. Of course they have... but that wasn't the question.
Mon Apr 23, 2012, 04:34 PM
Apr 2012

The question is whether or not YOU consider it a subsidy.

A simple yes or no will suffice.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
7. Of course I do. Just like everyone else. So what?
Mon Apr 23, 2012, 04:49 PM
Apr 2012

Apparently you really have a problem with reading comprehension:
No one denies renewables are getting subsidies.
The reasoning is that nuclear generation is a mature industry that has received 60 years of heavy subsidies and has demonstrated a negative learning curve; meaning the more we learn about it the more expensive it becomes. It is not regarded as a scalable solution to climate change nor is it considered sustainable.

Renewables have received only a small fraction of the support of nuclear power over the same period but with that it has demonstrated a very strong positive learning curve with steadily declining prices. A distributed system built around renewables is unquestionably scalable but it is incompatible with a centralized thermal system and is regarded as the desired sustainable solution to climate change.

The fact that they share a single temporary characteristic (nuclear's carbon emissions would rise sharply if scaled to be a significant global energy source) does not outweigh the way the remainder of the operational characteristics of nuclear confound the path to the most effective solution to the goal of a carbon free energy infrastructure.

FBaggins

(26,743 posts)
8. You seriously going to stick with that?
Mon Apr 23, 2012, 07:39 PM
Apr 2012

One last chance to correct the error.

It most certainly is not "everyone else".

The reasoning is that nuclear generation is a mature industry

Right... a "mature industry" that hasn't started a new project in three decades. Industries become "mature" when they have the infrastructure to be self sustaining and benefit from whatever economies of scale are available. If you shut down the big three for 30 years, the US auto industry will no longer be a "mature industry" regardless of how much money was pumped into them over the prior decades.

FBaggins

(26,743 posts)
9. Since you've obviously run from the issue.
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 03:16 PM
Apr 2012

Too late to back out now.

Ever heard of Peter Lynch?

3. FITs do not depend on taxpayer contributions (it is not a subsidy) and no new public debt is needed to fund it
http://japanfocus.org/-Peter-Lynch/3654

From a UK solar project that receives a FIT

Q: Is the scheme relying on a government initiative for part funding? If so, can the project survive without this funding?
The project will be registered under the Government’s Feed-in Tariff (FIT) programme. The FIT is not a subsidy or funding from the Government but is legislation that requires energy companies to pay a guaranteed tariff for 25 years.
https://brixtonenergy.co.uk/faq/


IIRC, China and Canada have a WTO dispute going on re: a FIT that China claims is an illegitimate government subsidy... while Canada insists that it isn't a subsidy at all.

From a pair of renewables sites.

1. The Feed in Tariff (FIT) that is used in Germany does not get any funds from public taxation therefore it is not a subsidy.

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2012/03/solar-protest-in-berlin-over-perceived-slowdown-of-renewable-energy-transition


The brilliant thing about a feed-in tariff (FIT) is that it is NOT a subsidy. It is a rate payer surcharge.

http://www.naturallifenetwork.com/news_detail.cfm?news=259

From those advocating a FIT in NV
FITs cost the government (taxpayers) and utility nothing—zero ($0.00), thus a FIT is not a subsidy!

http://www.fit4nv.org/


From those advocating a FIT in Hawaii
The FIT law benefits everyone
Germany's groundbreaking law is not a subsidy. No tax dollars are used to bring in renewable energy.

http://www.fit-hawaii.com/



Still think everyone considers a FIT to be a government subsidy?
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