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NeoGreen

(4,031 posts)
Thu Dec 28, 2017, 02:37 PM Dec 2017

Subsidy-free offshore wind farm will move ahead in the Netherlands

https://www.treehugger.com/renewable-energy/subsidy-free-offshore-wind-farm-will-move-ahead-netherlands.html





Subsidy-free offshore wind farm will move ahead in the Netherlands


Earlier this year, we reported on several promising developments pointing to subsidy-free renewable energy. Even more remarkably, one of those projects was an offshore wind farm. Now Business Green reports that The Dutch government is confirming that several bidders have come forward to bid on rights to develop the wind farm, and will receive a permit but zero state subsidies.

This feels like a very big deal. Offshore wind has been shattering cost reduction goals recently, but due to the complications of developing wind energy in harsh offshore conditions, it's still significantly more expensive than onshore wind.

So if subsidy-free wind is now possible offshore, imagine what other technologies are reaching such tipping points. Given the recent political successes of anti-renewables forces in the US, at least, the prospect of subsidy-free renewables is more important than ever. Because once clean energy can compete without government support, it will be significantly harder for the forces obstruction and predatory delay to throw a spanner in the works.

That said, I would personally argue that we need to keep subsidizing renewables regardless. Given the dire threat that climate change represents, the faster we transition to a zero carbon economy, the better off all of us will be.
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pangaia

(24,324 posts)
1. Dumb question -- Why are the turbines so far apart?
Thu Dec 28, 2017, 02:41 PM
Dec 2017

Something like so as to not interrupt the wind flow???

OnlinePoker

(5,727 posts)
2. Pretty close - More to reduce wear on turbines behind the lead one
Thu Dec 28, 2017, 03:41 PM
Dec 2017

This is related to onshore spacing but I expect it will be the same for off-shore.

http://www.brighthub.com/environment/renewable-energy/articles/97151.aspx

NNadir

(33,561 posts)
3. The wind industry, being unsustainable, does not deserve subsidies.
Sat Dec 30, 2017, 04:04 PM
Dec 2017

It also doesn't deserve praise.

It is not clean; it is not sustainable; and it is not effective.

The world economy sank two trillion bucks into wind and solar in the last ten years, with the result that the destruction of the atmosphere is accelerating, not decreasing.

This crap will be junk rotting in the seas in twenty years. Anyone investing in this crap should be able to prove that they can remove this worthless junk at sea after it fails.

Where Do Wind Turbines Go to Die?

The farm of 44 turbines recently retired at the average age of 18 years old. In October of 2016, Xcel Energy plans to dynamite the turbines and cart off the waste to a landfill.

Finishline42

(1,091 posts)
5. Again you have misrepresented the facts.
Tue Jan 2, 2018, 11:00 AM
Jan 2018

Excel has not dynamited the turbines and sent the refuse to a landfill.

This from the Excel website about that referenced wind farm.

The Ponnequin Wind Farm, located just south of Cheyenne, Wyo., was Colorado’s first wind farm. It was built to provide power for our popular WindSource® program, which at the time, was one of the country’s first voluntary green energy programs. Xcel Energy owns 37 of the 44 turbines at Ponnequin.

Since Ponnequin has been in operation, time, economics and advances in wind technology have led the company to pursue other options for its wind portfolio. Compared to other newer wind generation resources, the turbines used at Ponnequin are much smaller and far less efficient. Given the availability of other wind resources on its system, Xcel Energy discontinued operations of its portion of the Ponnequin Wind Farm on Dec. 31, 2015.

The company will maintain aviation lights, and other safety and security measures at the facility until 2019, at which time we should have a final decision on the disposition of the towers and related assets.

Xcel Energy remains the nation’s no. 1 utility wind energy provider.


https://www.xcelenergy.com/energy_portfolio/electricity/power_plants/ponnequin

Note the part about those windmills being small and less efficient. That is what has happened to the vast majority of the windmills that have been 'retired' - they get replaced by bigger and more efficient one - the point is that when you double the diameter of blades you cube the output.

Just as old cars don't get sent to landfills - neither would old windmills - too much to recycle to just throw away.

NNadir

(33,561 posts)
6. I think there is some misrepresentation here, or perhaps wishful thinking.
Wed Jan 3, 2018, 04:09 PM
Jan 2018

I categorically deny being the origin of it.

The entire wind industry is wishful thinking.

The turbines lasted 18 years, which is longer than most of the wind turbines in that oil and gas drilling hellhole, Denmark last, according to an analysis of its database of wind turbines, which I've analyzed many times.

The database is here, in both English and Danish: Key figures, Danish Wind Agency

I analyzed this database some time ago. It took a lot of work to do it, and I'm not going to update it for yet another cheer leader for the failed and useless wind industry, but I'm convinced the data hasn't changed much since 2014:

The Danes – and we will see that despite all the hoopla that has surrounded their wind program their actual energy production from wind energy is very small, even compared to wind capacity in other countries like the United States, Germany and China – keep an exhaustive and very detailed database of every single wind turbine they built in the period between the 1978 and the present day.[29] If one downloads the Excel file available in the link for reference 29 one can show that the Danes, as of the end of March 2015, have built and operated 8,002 wind turbines of all sizes. Of these, 2727, or 34.1% of them have been decommissioned. Of those that were decommissioned, the mean lifetime was 16.94 years (16 years and 310 days). Twenty-one of the decommissioned wind turbines operated less than two years, two never operated at all, and 103 operated for less than 10 years. Among decommissioned turbines, the one that lasted the longest did so for 34 years and 210 days. Among all 2727 decommissioned wind turbines, 6 lasted more than 30 years.

Of the 5,275 turbines still operating there are 13 that lasted longer than 34 years and 210 days, the longest, having operated (as of March 31, 2015) for 36 years and 303 days. The mean age of operating Danish wind turbines is 15.25 years, 15 years and 92 days.


Sustaining the Wind

As for Ecelenergy's standing in the gas apology industry, whoops, I mean the wind industry, being the NUMBER 1 SUPPLIER OF WIND ENEGY is completely meaningless, since the entire wind industry on the entire planet is meaningless.

As I frequently point out, the rate of climate change driving dangerous fossil fuel waste increases is now at the highest rate ever observed.

Despite this obvious dire fact, the proponents of the wind industry plod happily along declaring victory, sort of like Richard Nixon declaring victory in Vietnam.

The wind and solar scam combined, after soaking trillions of dollars out of the world economy doesn't produce even 5 of 570 exajoules of energy that humanity generates and consumes each year.

As of Christmas Eve 2017, the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere was 407.24 ppm. Ten years earlier it was 384.11

The words "dynamite" as in "blow up" and landfill both appear in the link I provided.

Going Trump on this basic truth will not make it into "recycled like cars."

The car industry, as I've pointed out many thousands, if not tens of thousands of times over the years is an environmental disaster par excellence, the nature of so called "distributed energy" writ large.

Go full Trump if you wish to defend the indefensible, but frankly, I abhor for example this picture of "recyclable" stuff:





Let's be clear on something, OK?

Recycling is an energy intensive process, particularly on systems with a very low energy to mass ratio, which is exactly what the failed, expensive and useless wind industry is.

In any case, as pointed out in something called the "primary scientific literature," the metal and concrete demands of the wind industry are enormous even among people who applaud this quixotic adventure, a gamble played with no demonstrated progress with the lives of every member of every future generation:

Eventually, renewable energy is likely to come to the fore, with benefits in terms of reduced greenhouse gas emissions and radioactive waste production. However, this transition will also cause much additional global demand for raw materials: for an equivalent installed capacity, solar and wind facilities require up to 15 times more concrete, 90 times more aluminium, and 50 times more iron, copper and glass than fossil fuels or nuclear energy (Supplementary Fig. 1). Yet, current production of wind and solar energy meets only about 1% of global demand, and hydroelectricity meets about 7%


Olivier Vidal, Bruno Goffé and Nicholas Arndt, Nature Geoscience 6, 894–896 (2013). The source references for the calculations are found in the supplementary information for this paper.

Now, I often argue for the recycling of nuclear fuels, but as I showed elsewhere, a centenarian consuming twice the per capita average power consumption of a human being on this planet would be responsible for generating 100 grams of fission products in their entire life time.

Current World Energy Demand, Ethical World Energy Demand, Depleted Uranium and the Centuries to Come

Nuclear power plants have been built that operated for more than half a century, using technology developed in the 1950's and the 1960's. One nuclear power plant in the State of California produces more energy each year than all the California bird grinding wind turbines in the state do, this while assholes with poor educations rail endlessly against nuclear power while promoting this lipstick on the gas pig, wind power.

The wind industry is garbage. It didn't work. It isn't working. It won't work. And in saying this, I am considering "working" being arresting climate change.

So what's you theory on how much metal we should mine, and concrete - one of the largest contributors of carbon dioxide to the atmosphere outside of fossil fuels - should we mine to chase this "renewable energy" chimera that has foolishly dominated the conversation about our environment for almost half a century?

Is another 50 ppm OK with you so long as we churn out more "distributed energy" crap that does not last 25 years? 100 ppm?

If you want to call me a liar, I suggest you provide something called "data."

You haven't. You're just chanting, like the rest of the "renewables will save us" crowd, who don't seem to give a shit that the climate situation is not getting better; it's getting worse.

If you're here to promote the mining industry, you're doing a great job. If you're here to worry about the environment, you're not making sense.

Have a nice evening.

Finishline42

(1,091 posts)
9. I've looked at that excel spreadsheet of those decommissioned windmills
Thu Jan 4, 2018, 11:03 AM
Jan 2018

And the way to describe the reason was this - the older turbines are much smaller and far less efficient. It's what happens in a manufactured product. You only need to one equation to understand why - when you double the rotor diameter you cube the output. As a result older windmills are being replaced by newer windmills before the end of their service life. This is because at some point the increase in output replacement makes economic sense.

What happens to an old windmill? I would imagine most of it gets recycled, but what doesn't is inert, unlike what happens when a nuclear plants gets decommissioned - much less the tons of nuclear waste every plant produces every year. Waste that will be poisonous for 10,000 years. Waste that can't be dumped in a landfill.

You can point to nuclear plants over 40 years old but the service life of every one of those plants will come to an end. The radiation eats at the pipes and components every second. The pipes buried in concrete - what happens when they start to leak? They may have lasted 40 years but what is the maintenance cost per year?

Wind and solar is getting to point where it's reducing the number of hours that coal and nuclear operate which increases their cost to produce power - basically a death spiral. Another factor? Something counter to what the power industry has been promoting forever - electricity demand has been falling - not increasing. Not good for high cost power plants.

NNadir

(33,561 posts)
11. Oh, I see. We can ignore the data and make a specious claim that "it's better now."
Thu Jan 4, 2018, 01:43 PM
Jan 2018

Last edited Thu Jan 4, 2018, 02:24 PM - Edit history (1)

Your evidence for the claim that this useless crap will be better is what? A specious reference to an equation? Do you have any data on rotor weight vs bearing wear vs material types or any other engineering concept that proves this crap will suddenly last 40 years?

It hasn't. It isn't. It won't.

A glib assertion about one equation without reference to the hundreds if not thousands of calculations that go into any engineering project, is just pure silliness.

You "imagine" most of it gets recycled? Your imagination doesn't impress me. Like I said the world atmosphere is collapsing at the fastest rate ever observed, despite half a century of propaganda about so called "renewable energy."

Here's the graph from the Mauna Loa observatory:



As for this tiresome stupid claim about 10,000 years and so called "nuclear waste" perhaps you can point to a single loss of life from this allegedly "poisonous" stuff about which you apparently know very little.

Got one? Allegedly "poisonous" used nuclear fuels have been stored in this country for more than half a century. Where are the deaths?

In my computer, over 30 years, I've accumulated, according to my most recent back up data, 676,407 files, the vast majority of which are scientific papers. I'd estimate that at least 90% are PDF's of scientific papers, and I'd also estimate that at least 15 to 20% relate to the chemistry and physics of fission products, all of which, in my opinion generated over decades of research, are extremely valuable materials and would be utilized as such if it weren't for idiots running around generating scare stories about them.

What you call "nuclear waste" been accumulating for over half a century. During this half a century air pollution deaths - which have not been in anyway halted by the wind energy scam - have killed tens of millions of people, at a rate of about 7 million deaths per year, half from "renewable biomass," and half from dangerous fossil fuels.

A comparative risk assessment of burden of disease and injury attributable to 67 risk factors and risk factor clusters in 21 regions, 1990–2010: a systematic analysis for the Global Burden of Disease Study 2010 (Lancet 2012, 380, 2224–60: For air pollution mortality figures see Table 3, page 2238 and the text on page 2240.)

In what kind of moral universe do people who know very little science carry on about some number pulled out of their hats about "10,000 years" while ignoring what is happening to human beings right now?

A famous scientist, has calculated the number of lives saved by nuclear power:

Prevented Mortality and Greenhouse Gas Emissions from Historical and Projected Nuclear Power (Pushker A. Kharecha* and James E. Hansen Environ. Sci. Technol., 2013, 47 (9), pp 4889–4895)

The numbers of lives reported saved therein in this much cited and widely read paper would have been much higher were it not for people who have never opened a science book in their lives to find out anything at all about the fission process. What characterizing them is nothing more than ignorance, pure simple ignorance.

They think that's its perfectly OK to let tens of millions of people die each decade because they don't "believe" nuclear power is perfect enough. Nuclear energy need not be perfect; it not be totally without risk to be vastly superior to everything else. It only needs to be superior to everything else, which it is.

I have before me a copy of the World Energy Outlook for 2017.

I'm an old man, who's lived too long in the presence of too much ignorance to be able to die in peace, because my generation screwed all future generations. In this long life, I've heard half a century of cheering and wild claims about so called "renewable energy."

The figures from the table 3.4 of page 144 give the energy breakdown of all kinds of energy for the year 2016, again more than half a century into the mindless cheering of anti-nukes for wind and solar energy. I note that they don't give a shit, usually, about the tens of millions of deaths every decade from dangerous fossil fuels - the use of which is increasing and not decreasing - but attack nuclear energy endlessly.

The world energy demand in 2016 is reported in table 3.4 on page on 144 at 13,760 million tons oil equivalent. This translates into 576.1 exajoules. Fossil fuels are reported as providing 81% of that energy. Nuclear energy - weighed as it is by continuous appeals to fear and ignorance - provided 678 MTOE, or 28.4 exajoules of that energy.

Neither the solar nor the wind industry are broken out in this table, because the are singularly too trivial to count, but the reported figure for "other renewables" (not "traditional" biomass, hydro or "modern" biomass) figure is 225 MTOE or 9.4 exajoules.

("Traditional biomass" is responsible for about half of the 7 million air pollution deaths each year.)

We spent on this planet, more than 2 trillion bucks on this garbage in the last ten years, more than the gross domestic product of India, a nation with well over a billion citizens.

You know what the result of all this agitation for the bird grinding wind industry and the future electronic waste represented by the solar industry is?

Well, I'll open the 2015 World Energy Outlook Report and refer to Table 2.1 on page 57. We see that dangerous fossil fuels provided 80% of the world's energy supply in 2013.

Thus in the "percent talk" rhetoric that advocates of the failed, expensive and useless so called "renewable energy" scam use to obfuscate and obscure the failure of their horseshit, we see that in purely percentage terms, the use of dangerous fossil fuels, which kill roughly half of the seven million people who die each year from air pollution is increasing not decreasing.

That, and the fact that dangerous fossil fuel waste concentrations in the planetary atmosphere are rising faster than at any time observed in human history is the real result of this vast hand waving ignorance.

The so called "renewable energy" scam didn't work; it isn't working; and it won't work.

It's nothing more than a marketing ploy to allow the fossil fuel industry to increase it's destruction of not only all future human generations, but the generations of many other forms of life on this planet.

It's a crime of unimaginable ethical proportions and it tightly tied to the vast human capacity - the toxic human capacity - to lie to oneself.

Have a nice evening.

Finishline42

(1,091 posts)
12. Wind and Solar are pricing coal and nuclear out of business
Thu Jan 4, 2018, 08:59 PM
Jan 2018

Both coal and nuclear are looking for govt support to stay competitive. As I said before - wind and solar are growing at a faster rate than any other type of electricity generator and as a result it reduces the number of hours coal and nuclear plants operate during the year which means the cost to operate is going up.

Your numbers on energy usage is like talking about traffic by how many lanes are a the highway. At 2am 2 lanes are more than enough but at 5pm 10 lanes can't handle the load (Atlanta being a prime example).

The inputs to keep the grid stable come from a lot of different sources but when the wind is blowing - windmills produce some of the cheapest electricity on the market. Every time they fill one of those 6 minute segments they keep a coal and nuclear plants on the sidelines. Which of course increases the cost which would probably be one of most effective ways to decrease their use.

Did you read about those batteries Musk installed in Australia? One big coal plant expectantly shut down - another was in the system designed to pick up the slack - and the batteries responded in less than a second, much faster than the other plant could. How much of our capacity is being operated in standby mode waiting to fill a gap? How many coal fired power plants will large scale batteries shutter?

BTW, nobody is going to be building new nuclear power plants. How many that were under construction have been shut down? Cost is too high. You can make all the number intensive arguments you want - that's not going to change.

NNadir

(33,561 posts)
13. Oh really? The wind and solar industry sucked two trillion dollars out the world economy...
Thu Jan 4, 2018, 10:04 PM
Jan 2018

Last edited Sat Jan 6, 2018, 03:55 PM - Edit history (1)

...in just 10 years, for what?

I'm not into hand waving and bullshit chanting, by the way, I use references, unlike uneducated anti-nukes.

My reference for this information is here, in the UNEP Frankfurt School Report, issued each year: GLOBAL TRENDS IN RENEWABLE ENERGY INVESTMENT 2017

The exact figure from 2006 to 2016 can be found by summing the figures in the graphic on page 12, which works out to $2,327,900,000,000 or 2.3 trillion dollars.

This ersatz "investment" - much of it in the form of government subsidies and "research" took place on a planet where more than 2.3 billion human beings lack access to even primitive sanitary improvements - to satisfy the insatiable lust for ignorance writ large by bourgeois fantasy mongers who worship that shit heel crony capitalist billionaire Elon Musk, the billionaire who can't get enough government subsidies to satiate his voracious appetite for insipid self promotion.

2.3 trillion dollars...

This is more than the GDP of India, and in fact, the GDP's of all but 7 of the world's largest economies

The world built 440 nuclear power plants in less than 30 years, more than 100 of them in the United States, using technology developed in the 1950s and 1960s. In the United States, builder of more than 20% of these reactors, electricity prices were among the lowest in the world.

Now, suddenly, we have uneducated bourgeois Musk worshipping people here to announce that what has already happened is impossible.

Why is it impossible? It's obviously not.

I'll tell you why air heads never get challenged for saying so. Because the nuclear energy industry, and only the nuclear industry is required to meet standards that no other form of energy in the world can match, including the wind industry - the proponents of which couldn't give a shit how many Chinese laborers suffer degraded health in wild cat lanthanide mining - specifically that no one anywhere at anytime suffer any consequences, real or imagined, with emphasis on imagined.

I mean, do we have conversations about what the thorium laced lanthanide mine tailings will do to people 10,000 years from now?

No we don't. Because the bourgeois poorly educated brats carrying on mindlessly about 10,000 years from now - this while 7 million people died in 2017 from air pollution - just don't give a shit. It's all selective attention, a childish affectation that does none of its executioners any intellectual or ethical credit.

These people - responsible for huge losses of human life by their appeals to ignorance and fear - are like arsonists complaining about forest fires. Assholes like the shit for brains in that ignorance factory called Greenpeace, file specious lawsuits, do everything in their power to criticize, delay, and propagandize against reactors, raise costs, and then complain reactors are too expensive, while promoting the mining of lanthanides, cadmium, and a whole lot of other very questionable materials for their asinine failed and prohibitively expensive garbage so called "renewable energy" scheme.

And the sad thing, is that they are being allowed, through criminal social ignorance to have their way, and the environment and all future generations are suffering as a result.

Too expensive, really?

For 2.3 trillion dollars, if nuclear reactors cost 10 billion dollars each - and there's no technical reason they should - we could build more than 230 1000 MWe reactors. At the 90% capacity utilization typical for these reactors, we could be producing more than 7.5 exajoules of energy each year for periods approaching 60 years.

7.5 exajoules plus the 28 exajoules reactors currently produce dwarfs what wind and solar produce, this after half a century of cheering, subsidy, and waste, after half a century of cheering. In fact, the reactors built in a 30 year period have been producing more energy than the wind and solar scam produces now for more than 3 decades.

Now, obviously if we built one thousand 1000 MWe reactors every ten years, the engineering, the technology, and the manufacturing infrastructure would be employing millions of people productively and the investment would result in a highly skilled and highly educated work force in a sustainable world.

But that's not what's happening.

One of the more amusing things about anti-nukes is when they pretend to lecture me on numbers, particularly when utilizing very tortured metaphors.

I have yet to find one anti-nuke who I believe could pass a basic calculus course, or even a basic pre-calculus course, never mind a course in differential equations by which one might understand the Bateman Equation with which any competent nuclear engineer must work to understand the basic dynamics of nuclear fuel, the accumulation and decay of elements in nuclear fuels. One of the consequences of the Bateman equation is that their solutions actually dictate a maximal accumulation of any nuclide in it, asymptotically approaching a point at which the nuclides are decaying at exactly the same rate at which they are formed, a situation that obviously doesn't apply to lanthanide mine tailings.

I've had these conversations, over the years with hundreds of people spewing the same tired bullshit, year after year. They never learn, and regrettably, for the whole of humanity, they never give up.

They just piss me off. Like I said, I'm devastated to be reaching the end of my life and to realize what my contemporaries have done to the future. I was born into a very beautiful world, one well worth saving, and I'm leaving one that is dying faster than I am. I will die in great emotional pain as a result, even if its clear that nothing can be done about it. We're at over 407 ppm of the dangerous fossil fuel waste carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, and no one now living will ever see it go below 400 ppm again.

There is no converting people who thrive on what I regard as deliberate ignorance. They can't read; they can't think; and they can't make a basic educated supportable argument. It's just hand waving, sloganeering, and specious rhetoric.

This website allows its members to utilize the "ignore" button to avoid the ignorable ignoramus.

I never used to utilize it, but I'm too old for spitting into this sinister wind. I'm using it more and more. Time being what it is, with my basic sense of decency strained, I will employ it now.

Have a nice life.

Finishline42

(1,091 posts)
4. Just a data point for Europe on Dec 31, 2017
Tue Jan 2, 2018, 10:48 AM
Jan 2018

Here's what Europe got from Wind on NYE.

Kees van der Leun? @Sustainable2050 · 17h17 hours ago

Wind left 2017 with a roar, providing 24% of Europe's electricity on New Year's Eve!
Germany 65%, Ireland 54%, Denmark 54%, Portugal 47%, Spain 46%, UK 27%, NL 25%
Germany 722 GWh, Spain 266, France 217, UK 205, Poland 76, NL 69

The #1 positive we get with every windmill and solar panel install is a decade long less need for fossil fuels. And because both are manufactured products we will continue to see costs go down along with product improvement. They also are a jobs generator.

NNadir

(33,561 posts)
7. Bull. Since at no time has any of this useless junk provided 100% of the energy 100% of the...
Wed Jan 3, 2018, 06:28 PM
Jan 2018

...the time, any balance came from burning dangerous fossil fuels and dumping the waste directly in the planetary atmosphere.

The number 1 thing we get from hyping this crap with endless percent talk about some marginal percentage on some rare day is the entrenchment of the dangerous fossil fuel industry.

The sum total of all these "GWh" in energy terms is 1555 GWh.

This translates to 5.6 petajoules.

World energy demand is 570 exajoules per year roughly, which translates into 1.56 exajoules per day.

This means that all these countries combined, announced here in a delusional fashion as a kind of "victory" actually represents 0.3% of the world's energy demand for a day, which might as well be, um, nothing.

One of the horrible things that people defending this useless crap do is to present failure as a victory.

It's not. It's a failure, pure and simple.

It's a Trumpian representation, quite Trumpian.

Finishline42

(1,091 posts)
8. I'l take useless junk for 18 years Alex...
Thu Jan 4, 2018, 10:29 AM
Jan 2018

You throw around a bunch of numbers that just remind me of Mark Twain's 'Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.

I remember when you said that we would run out of aluminum just trying to build enough windmills to fill the grid. I was wondering how we are able to make billions of cans of soda and beer every year if it was in such short supply?

Last year wind contributed less. Next year it will contribute more than it did this year. It will continue to grow because it's cheaper than both coal and nuclear. It's an incremental growth where it fits and it also produces jobs, thousands of them.

NeoGreen

(4,031 posts)
10. An apropos image?...
Thu Jan 4, 2018, 12:26 PM
Jan 2018

...

It is what comes to mind for me when I read some of the responses to my posts.

hunter

(38,328 posts)
14. Nah, that's me.
Fri Jan 5, 2018, 01:14 AM
Jan 2018

Those wind turbines are ugly, littering the hillsides of my beloved California.

I feel much the same about dams. I celebrate the removal of dams, and I wish we'd hurry up removing the wind turbines, especially all the dead turbines rotting away since the first wind boom here.

Wind turbines are little more than feel good fashion accessories for the filthy fracking "natural" gas industry.

A world economy powered by natural gas, in any capacity, even with supplemental wind, is nothing to look forward too.

The only way to quit fossil fuels is to quit fossil fuels.

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