Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
19 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
What happened to hydro power? (Original Post) JonathanRackham Sep 2016 OP
It is where there are rivers that can be dammed Warpy Sep 2016 #1
I think there is lots of methane released when the reservoirs are flooded. applegrove Sep 2016 #2
Only if they don't harvest the flora in the flood zone first. OnlinePoker Sep 2016 #6
That's good. applegrove Sep 2016 #7
Not really an 2naSalit Sep 2016 #3
Many FERC apps are closed loop FogerRox Sep 2016 #16
Those are 2naSalit Sep 2016 #19
James Bay Project OneBlueDotBama Sep 2016 #4
Yes. There is significant untapped potential. kristopher Sep 2016 #5
Hydro is NOT Clean dbackjon Sep 2016 #8
No it isn't. kristopher Sep 2016 #9
If you are talking about Hydrokinetic (wave) then that is cleaner, but any power than involves dbackjon Sep 2016 #10
I guess you are so deeply concerned it was too much trouble to go to DOE's page kristopher Sep 2016 #11
I did. Nothing there to refute me. dbackjon Sep 2016 #15
Closed loop pumped hydro FogerRox Sep 2016 #17
In the late 1970s, locks and dams were open to electrification. happyslug2 Sep 2016 #12
Most of the best dam sites are already gone, at least in the US hatrack Sep 2016 #13
I was thinking small JonathanRackham Sep 2016 #14
No, we're not thinking about that. FogerRox Sep 2016 #18

Warpy

(111,318 posts)
1. It is where there are rivers that can be dammed
Sun Sep 11, 2016, 05:20 PM
Sep 2016

It worked best out west but the drought out here has reservoirs at critically low levels.

In addition, it was rarely enough to meet 100% of the demand even in areas where it could be used.

applegrove

(118,746 posts)
2. I think there is lots of methane released when the reservoirs are flooded.
Sun Sep 11, 2016, 05:28 PM
Sep 2016

So hydro is not perfectly clean power.

OnlinePoker

(5,725 posts)
6. Only if they don't harvest the flora in the flood zone first.
Sun Sep 11, 2016, 07:20 PM
Sep 2016

For the Site C dam, currently in the first stages of construction in B.C., all trees are being cut down beforehand.

2naSalit

(86,743 posts)
3. Not really an
Sun Sep 11, 2016, 05:48 PM
Sep 2016

environmentally viable option. It disrupts ecosystems by halting fish migration. Several species of salmon have gone extinct because of the dams on the Columbia ans Snake rivers, also depleting the nutrient tranfer from the ocean by ending the migration of salmon to the inland forests in the Rocky Mountains... salmon being a keystone species which is essential for all other species in the Rocky Mountain ecosystems including central Idaho and the Greater Yellowstone ecosystems.

http://www.wildsalmon.org/facts-and-information/faq/why-remove-the-4-lower-snake-river-dams.html

http://www.snakeriversalmonsolutions.org/Default.aspx

The State of Idaho has been advocating hatchery fish and claim they are the same as wild fish and even convinced the federal agencies to merge the population counts so that the Nez Perce have taken to marking their fish so they can be identified as hatchery fish rather than wild fish so they can identify just how few wild fish actually come back to spawn.

http://www.nptfisheries.org/

Upriver, the Fort Hall Shoshoni/Bannock tribes are working on restoration of habitat and attempting new ways of reintroduction for Hatchery fish to become more wild. It's a complex philosophy but their practices are making progress in the intended fashion.

The Bush administration and their minions have only exacerbated the problem and purposely skewd all data such that actual population counts of wild salmon include hatchery fish.

2naSalit

(86,743 posts)
19. Those are
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 09:05 PM
Sep 2016

interesting, and smaller scale but look like that sort of system might be more doable. Thanks for the links. Used to live near San Vincente and Gordon Butte is just a little way up the road from here, a good place to go for a Sunday drive...

The large scale river dams have proven to be problematic in a large area of affect. These smaller projects are more acceptable in that they don't disrupt entire ecosystems and that they are not subject to disruptions from outside links like our "grid" is.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
5. Yes. There is significant untapped potential.
Sun Sep 11, 2016, 07:09 PM
Sep 2016

A shift to Distributed Energy Resources is underway. The value of most undeveloped hydrokinetic resources is probably going to be enhanced as the amount of variable renewables connected to the grid increases past 50%. It has an important role to play in the future, IMO.

DOE
http://energy.gov/eere/water/water-power-program

DOE's NREL
http://www.nrel.gov/water/

Abstract from 1998 DOE report on undeveloped hydropower:

To provide a more accurate assessment of the domestic undeveloped hydropower capacity, the U.S. Department of Energy’s Hydropower Program developed a computer model, Hydropower Evaluation Software (HES). HES allows the personal computer user to assign environmental attributes to potential hydropower sites, calculate development suitability factors for each site based on the environmental, legal, and institutional attributes present, and generate reports based on these suitability factors. This report describes the development of HES, its data requirements, and its application to each state assessment; in addition, it summarizes the data derivation process and data for the states. Modeling of the undeveloped hydropower resources in the United States, based on environmental, legal, and institutional constraints, has identified 5,677 sites that have a total undeveloped capacity of about 30,000 megawatts.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/water/pdfs/doewater-10430.pdf

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
9. No it isn't.
Mon Sep 12, 2016, 07:51 PM
Sep 2016

It can be extremely destructive, but it doesn't have to be. See some of the alternatives at the DOE link in my other post this thread.

 

dbackjon

(6,578 posts)
10. If you are talking about Hydrokinetic (wave) then that is cleaner, but any power than involves
Mon Sep 12, 2016, 08:18 PM
Sep 2016

Damming a natural waterway is not clean.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
11. I guess you are so deeply concerned it was too much trouble to go to DOE's page
Mon Sep 12, 2016, 10:34 PM
Sep 2016

I encourage others to read why your view needs more information by visiting the Dept of Energy website:
http://energy.gov/eere/water/water-power-program

FogerRox

(13,211 posts)
17. Closed loop pumped hydro
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 06:22 PM
Sep 2016

See my other comment with links.

I know a project manager for a major construction company, all they do is closed loop pumped hydro - he doesn't even consider damning a river anymore, many companies don't even think like that. And neither should you.

Closed looped proposals go back to the 1990's.

 

happyslug2

(1 post)
12. In the late 1970s, locks and dams were open to electrification.
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 01:20 AM
Sep 2016

Last edited Tue Sep 13, 2016, 09:49 AM - Edit history (1)

Municipalities where such locks and dams existed were given the option to electrifying those locks and dams. The problem was under state law any municipality along a river could claim any dam on that river. In western Pennsylvania one such municipality did so for all of the locks and dams on the rivers in western Pennsylvania. Thus tied up all of those locks and dams from being electrified. This is still the legal situation in westerm Pennsylvania, thus no electrification of the locks and dams.

Please note locks and dams are for maintaining river levels for barge traffic, thus were NOT built to generate electricity. Given coal was the main source of electricity for western Pennsylvania since electricity the late 1800s and nuclear power was all the rage in the 1950s, installing electricity generation on the locks and dams had lower priority.

I can NOT find any evidence for this, but the local electric company had very good reason to oppose such conversion. In tge 1950s the local power companies had built up their electrical generation capacity to support the Steel industry in Pittsburgh Area. The Steel industry was marginal by the 1960s, by the late 1970s the Steel industry was on its last legs, and died in the early 1980s.

The result was excess electrical generation in western Pennsylvania. Various plans has been proposed since the 1980s to build power lines to the east coast to get this excess power to the east coast, but the Appalachian Mountains are in the way. Massive opposition had defeated each proposal (along with co-generation plants coming on line in the 1990s).

Western Pennsylvania still has excessive power generation, without any power from the locks and dams. Thus the local power companies have done all they can to prevent such conversions. I suspect this is also true elsewhere in the country.

Now some dams built without electrical generation capacity has had them installed. One such dam is the Conemaugh River dam. The Conemaugh River dam was built in the 1950s as a temporary holding dams during massive rains. Most the the year, it holds little water, just enough to run the electrical generator installed in the late 1970s. The power goes to the local rural electric co-op. Once or twice a year it fills up with water after heavy rains.

Please note the Conemaugh River drains an area with a history of coal mining, it is heavy with acid mind runoff, and has no fish in it for that reason. The Conemaugh flows into the Kissikimiss River which flows into the Allegheny river, which flows into the Ohio River, which flows jnto the lower Mississippi River and then into the Gulf of Mexico.

Do to its high acid mine runoff, after a heavy rain, the water can not be released right afterward, for the water with its high acid mine runoff content would kill off the fish in the Allegheny River. The Corp of Enginners release water from the Conemaugh River Dam to mix with water released from the Allegheny Kizmas dam to delute the Acid Mine Runoff to minimize fish kills in the lower Allegheny River and the Ohio River.

We are slowly working to reduce Acid Mine Runoffs from the various mines, but many such mines were played out in the 1800s and were poorly designed and mined. We have some real bad acid mine runoffs in Cambria County Pennsylvania, and smaller but numerous smaller polluters all through Western Pennsylvania. Till those sources of Acid Mine Runoff are corrected, the Conemaugh dam will always slowly release its waters.

Now the main way to correct such runoff is to seal the mines AND when that can NOT be done to build holding ponds for the water for the minerals that make the water Acid falls out of the water. You need an almost swamp like series of ponds to do that (swamps are nature's way to remove such materials from water). We are slowly building them, many can generate almost as much power as they use (actual power usage is low, the water is only permitted to seep from one holding pond to the next, with each pond designed to hold the maximum expected flow from the source of the Acud Mine Runoff).

The slow water flow permits the acid causing material to drop to the bottom of the pond. The material is then collected when it is determined the pond has reached a ser level.

Most times you see a series of three ponds, with each pond less polluted then the next. The first ponds tends to be filled with acid loving plants, that help remove even more acid from the water. The last pond the water looks almost blue (I am a native of Western Pennsylvania, and I have seen a lot of Orange water and creek beds, orange is a sign of heavy acid mine runoff).

I bring acid mine runoff for the dams that holds water makes the water stand still. Standing water can NOT hold objects, thus the materials that produce acid mine runoff tend to fall to the bottom behind dams, including the locks and dams installed on the rivers to maintain water levels for barge traffic. Thus we in western Pennsylvania tend to like dams to hold water back, such dams do help clean up the rivers from Acid Mine Runoff.

Power generation also tends to slow down water, permitting it to become cleaner. Now standing still water ends up heavily polluted, but a slow flowing stream of water will tend to clean itself, thus the policy of the Corp of Engineers has been to slow down water drainage in western Pennsylvania, not to stop it for later use (stopping water flow for later use appears to be the rule in the Southwest).

Sorry about this tangent, but electrical generation using hydro power in Western Pennsylvania is tied in the the collapse of the Steel Industry AND the need to handle Acid Mine Runoff (and the municipality that took up the options on all of the locks and dams in the 1970s was hurt badly by the collapse of the Steel Industry thus took the money it could get quickly when it bid and then did NOT exercise their right to electrify the local Locks and Dams).

Things do not happen in a vaccum, other factors kick in and when it comes to electrifying the locks and dams other factors kick in big time.

hatrack

(59,592 posts)
13. Most of the best dam sites are already gone, at least in the US
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 08:13 AM
Sep 2016

(at least if you're talking about conventional medium-to-large hydropower dams).

JonathanRackham

(1,604 posts)
14. I was thinking small
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 08:47 AM
Sep 2016

They could serve dual purpose, electric and water storage. But not big like the monster projects of the past. They could even serve as flood control.

Pennsylvania is dotted with flood control reservoir dam projects that do not produce electricity.

FogerRox

(13,211 posts)
18. No, we're not thinking about that.
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 06:29 PM
Sep 2016

Abandoned mines make far better sites for closed loop pumped hydro powered by excess wind and solar for delivery when wind and solar are not enough. See my comment upthread for more info.

Then there is this:
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/this-island-will-charge-its-lake-sized-batteries-with-wind-power

Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Environment & Energy»What happened to hydro po...