NRG to Build Expansive EV Fast-Charging System in California (at least 200 stations)

[OKIsItJustMe]

http://www.smartmeters.com/the-news/renewable-energy-news/3116-nrg-to-build-expansive-ev-fast-charging-system-in-california.html

[font face=Times,Times New Roman,Serif][font size=5]NRG to Build Expansive EV Fast-Charging System in California[/font]

Saturday, 24 March 2012 00:38

[font size=3]The California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) is contracting NRG Energy to build a comprehensive electric vehicle (EV) charging network in the state, investing approximately $100 million over the next four years.

The fee-based charging network will be comprised of at least 200 publicly available fast-charging stations, which can add 50 miles of driving in less than 15 minutes. The charging stations will be installed in the San Francisco Bay area, the San Joaquin Valley, the Los Angeles Basin, and San Diego County. NRG’s EV infrastructure commitment will include the for at least 10,000 individual charging stations located at homes, offices, multifamily communities, schools and hospitals located across the State.

NRG’s Chief Executive Officer, David Crane, observes, “With this agreement, the people of California will gain a charging infrastructure ready to support their current and future fleet of electric vehicles. And we will be helping the State meet its clean car goals as embodied by its Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) mandate.”

The agreement, which is still awaiting final approval, resolves outstanding litigation from a long-term electricity contract entered into over a decade ago by a subsidiary of Dynegy, which at the time co-owned with NRG California power generating plants. NRG assumed responsibility for resolving the issue in 2006 when it acquired Dynegy’s 50 percent interest in the assets.

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[tinrobot]

1. Generally good.

Seems as though the fast chargers will be CHAdeMO standard, much to the delight of Leaf and iMev owners, but not those of other vehicles. Fast charging standards have not been set, so this may tip the balance in favor of Nissan/Mitsubishi, which require two different connectors on the vehicle rather than one.

This quote from the LA Times article on the same subject worries me:

To use the fast-charging stations, consumers will be able to pay for monthly subscriptions or pay as they go. The price of the monthly subscriptions has not yet been set, but the pay-as-you-go price will be between $10 and $15 per use, an NRG spokesman said.

$10-15 for one charge seems a bit expensive to me.

One thing we need to be vigilant about is private control of public charging. Governments are already handing out nice little monopolies to private companies on this front. Once these companies own the charging networks along public roads, they can jack up prices and reap huge profits.

edit - LA Times article: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-electric-stations-20120324,0,3280349.story

[dmallind]

2. What other vehicles use a different fast charger?

[tinrobot]

3. There is a level 3 standard pending for SAE J1772

Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen are going to support a level 3 charging standard that extends the existing J1772 connector. This will allow one connector to be used with 110, 220, and 440 volt charging. Much cleaner from a design and support standpoint.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/seven-auto-manufacturers-collaborate-on-harmonized-electric-vehicle-fast-charging-solution-131579563.html

The problem is that there are currently no vehicles using this standard. You'll probably see these level 3 chargers in the next generation of electric vehicles - around 2014 or so.

On top of all of this, there's Tesla, who has created their own connector and standards as well.

We're definitely going to see a standards war when it comes to fast charging EVs.

[dmallind]

10. "pending" like the Aptera

It's vaporware intended exclusively to block adoption of the only existing real world fast chargers.

[txlibdem]

15. Europe uses 240 V

We use a combination of 110V and 220V, 60 Hz

Japan uses 50 Hz power.

Just like DVD +R and DVD -R began as competitors but ultimately coalesced into a single box, so too will these three different standards for fast vehicle charging eventually become one.

[OKIsItJustMe]

18. Given your example of AC

I don’t think we can jump to the conclusion that all EV chargers will become one in the near future. (Unless someone like DoE/EPA mandates the use of a standard.)

(Tried to use a friend’s cell phone charger recently?)

[PoliticAverse]

4. See this article for a discussion of the 2 major standards:

http://www.plugincars.com/electric-car-charging-standards-split-108530.html

[dmallind]

12. Another future tense article.

[OKIsItJustMe]

5. A comparison to consider

Which is “faster?”
15 minutes to get a “Fast-Charge” good for 50 miles.
3 minutes to get a tank of hydrogen, good for “more than 400 kilometers” (i.e. more than 250 miles.)

[Kennah]

6. Read "Hype About Hydrogen". Fuel cell cars are still decades away from mass production.

[OKIsItJustMe]

7. We shall see…

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2011/01/japan-20110114.html

[font face=Times,Times New Roman,Serif][font size=5]13 Japanese automakers and energy companies join forces to support rollout of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles in 2015[/font]

14 January 2011

[font size=3]A coalition of 13 major Japanese automakers and energy companies—including Toyota, Honda and Nissan—are joining together to expand the introduction of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (FCVs) in 2015 and develop the hydrogen supply network throughout Japan. The two groups are looking to the government to join them in forming various strategies to support their joint efforts and to gain greater public acceptance of the technology.

As a specific initiative in the immediate future, the companies plan to approach local governments and other concerned parties to discuss strategies for creating initial consumer demand for FCVs and for the optimal placement of hydrogen fueling stations, targeting Japan's four major metropolitan areas (Tokyo, Nagoya, Osaka and Fukuoka).

Companies in the coalition include: Toyota Motor Corporation (TMC); Nissan Motor Company, Ltd.; Honda Motor Company, Ltd.; JX Nippon Oil & Energy Corporation; Idemitsu Kosan Company, Ltd.; Iwatani Corporation; Osaka Gas Company, Ltd.; Cosmo Oil Company, Ltd.; Saibu Gas Company, Ltd.; Showa Shell Sekiyu K.K.; Taiyo Nippon Sanso Corporation; Tokyo Gas Company, Ltd.; and Toho Gas, Company, Ltd.

As development of fuel-cell systems progresses, Japanese automakers are continuing drastically to reduce the cost of manufacturing such systems and are aiming to launch FCVs in the Japanese market—mainly in the country’s four largest cities—in 2015. The automobile industry hopes to popularize the use of FCVs after their initial introduction as a way of tackling energy and environmental issues.

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http://www.thenational.ae/arts-culture/books/tomorrows-energy-a-strong-case-for-hydrogen

[font face=Times,Times New Roman,Serif][font size=5]Tomorrow's Energy: A strong case for hydrogen[/font]

Paul Hockenos

[font size=3]The fierce debate over the prospects for hydrogen as a clean, renewable energy source for the future has dragged on for decades. The pro-hydrogen forces periodically trumpet important breakthroughs, only to be knocked back by disappointing setbacks. It seems that hydrogen's real-world feasibility has been "just around the corner" since the 1970s.

…

The facts about hydrogen, at least, are undisputed: it does not exist freely in nature; most hydrogen is bonded to oxygen in water. It must be generated by splitting it from a compound like water or hydrocarbons like natural gas, oil, coal or plant sugars. Thus, hydrogen is not a primary energy source, like oil, but more of an energy carrier, like electricity. It requires another primary energy source to produce it, which could be renewable, nuclear or fossil. It stores energy that is released cleanly when it is discharged "like the spring in a mousetrap", noted one observer.

…

The best bet these days are hydrogen fuel cells, which can be used in motor vehicles to store and create electricity. These cells are little electrochemical factories that combine hydrogen and oxygen in a flameless process that produces electricity. Today most hydrogen is generated with fossil fuels, thus making it a fellow contributor to global warming. But this process can also be clean and green if based on renewables, and thus could power future generations of electric cars and the only emission coming out of an exhaust pipe would be innocuous, run-of-the-mill steam.

…

Major car makers, among them the German giants BMW and Daimler-Benz, claim they will be mass producing hydrogen cars for public sale by 2015. Three of Mercedes' B-class F-cell cars circled the globe last year. California approved new regulations that could put more than 160,000 zero-emission hydrogen cell cars on the road by 2025. General Motor's fleet of 115 Chevrolet Equinox fuel-cell vehicles has chalked more than 750,000 miles. By 2020, economies of scale and technological advancements could bring down their costs by 90 per cent, says a widely circulated McKinsey study.

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[Kennah]

13. I want to see fuel cell cars come to fruitition ...

... but I don't think the impediments will be surmounted any time soon.

[OKIsItJustMe]

19. Even platinum-based fuel cell stacks have come down in price rather dramatically

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/accomplishments.html


Check out the [font color=green]Green[/font], which represents the cost of the fuel cell stack itself.

There’s a lot of laboratory work on non-platinum-based fuel cells. Once those experimental fuel cells become commercial…

[txlibdem]

22. The Hydrogen Hoax

Just another excuse to keep us hooked on the oil company pipe.

[OKIsItJustMe]

23. Interesting…

What energy source do you think will not keep us hooked on the oil company pipe?

[txlibdem]

26. Every other type of non-fossil fuel will end our addiction

But I prefer electric vehicles as a medium to long term solution.

[OKIsItJustMe]

27. How will you power those EV’s?

The primary difference between an EV and a FCEV is that rather than pumping an electric charge into an EV, you pump hydrogen into a FCEV. The hydrogen can be readily produced using electricity.

To make an EV go further, you need a larger, heavier, more expensive battery pack (and a heavier vehicle to support it.)

To make a FCEV go further, you need a larger tank.


http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/04/h2fcv-20090423.html

[font face=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][font size=5]Automakers Still Targeting Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles for Long Term Sustainable Mobility[/font]
23 April 2009

[font size=3]Despite the current enthusiasm for electric vehicles (EVs), hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (FCVs) will be an important component of the vehicle mix in 2050, according to panelists from Nissan, Toyota and the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) in a conference session at the SAE 2009 World Congress in Detroit.

Dr. Kev Adjemian, Senior Principal Engineer/Senior Manager - Fuel Cell Laboratory, Nissan; Justin Ward, Advanced Powertrain Program Manager, Toyota; Keith Wipke, Senior Engineer, NREL; and session moderator and organizer Jesse Schneider, Alternative Propulsion Consultant (who recently left Chrysler from the ENVI PHEV group) all agreed that the future would see a mix of the different types of vehicles out of necessity.

Tailpipe GHG emissions need to be reduced by 70% by 2050 to maintain a 550 ppm concentration according to Nissan’s calculations, Adjemian said. (Nissan bases its assessment on the AR3 analysis from the UN IPCCC.) Adjemian also noted that neither EVs or FCVs would be able to contribute to that required reduction unless the electricity or the hydrogen was sourced from renewables.

…

We feel that there is a place for EVs in the future, but what is that place? It’s pretty challenging for a full-range larger vehicle. We do see a market for the smaller, shorter range EVs. The key is to make sure your grid is clean. We don’t talk much about it these days, but we are still working very, very strongly on fuel cell technology.

—Justin Ward

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[txlibdem]

28. If you're worried about electricity then why on Earth are you advocating Hydrogen

It takes electricity to make it, to cool it and keep it super cold, to pump it into storage tanks, transport it to the Exxon station and pump it into their super cooled storage tanks, then use more electricity to pressurize it so it can be "pumped" into your vehicle's hydrogen tank.

Or will you use natural gas to make the hydrogen? If so, then why not just have your vehicle burn the natural gas... save all that electricity and probably be cleaner.

Unfortunately, hydrogen vehicles is a hoax, always was a hoax, and will always be a hoax. Why do you think it was a Texas Oil Man who dropped electric car mandates in favor of hydrogen vehicle research.

[OKIsItJustMe]

33. I’m not worried about electricity

I’m curious as to why you seem to think that electricity is somehow squeaky clean, but hydrogen is, “just another excuse to keep us hooked on the oil company pipe.”

[kristopher]

36. well to wheels energy efficiency of H for cars sucks.

It requires about 60% more input energy than battery electric.

[tinrobot]

8. Actually, the range depends on the battery

Most electric cars get a lot more than 50 miles on a charge.

The big advantage to electric cars is that the infrastructure is pretty much in place. The grid is there, all we have to do is install the plugs (i.e. charging stations). You can also charge at home, which is another big advantage. With hydrogen, you have a lot of infrastructure that needs to be built and refills still have to happen at fueling stations.

[OKIsItJustMe]

9. And…

A “Fast-Charge” will charge a larger batter in… how many minutes?

[tinrobot]

14. How many hydrogen filling stations are there in your state?

In California, there seems to be only eight.

Once it charges, at least an EV can drive beyond Irvine, if needed.

[OKIsItJustMe]

16. I honestly don’t see where that is terribly relevent

The number of filling stations is appropriate for the number of PHEV’s currently in use.
As the number of EV’s that are on the road expands, charging stations will expand.
As the number of PHEV’s that are on the road expands, hydrogen filling stations will expand.


However, back to my point, given the 50/250 mile example:
A hydrogen fueled car can get 5 times the range, in one fifth the time.

Imagine what the local gas station would look like if each patron took 15 minutes to fuel their car, and needed to stop 5 times as often…


Well, that’s not a problem, everyone can recharge their car at home. (No, not everyone lives in a house with an attached garage.)

[tinrobot]

21. The number of hydrogen stations is definitely a deterrent.

When deciding between a hydrogen car and an EV, I'll see that I can't fill up the hydrogen car outside of a handful of places. That lack of availability is a major issue.

Yes, there are plenty of issues with EV ownership. As an owner, I know them first hand. Charge times are definitely an issue, but not as big of an issue as non-EV owners think. There's also a lot of fear out there, and you're certainly buying into it.

[OKIsItJustMe]

24. I'm not “buying into” fear

Are you “buying into” FCEV fear? or are you pointing out a drawback?

Why are there more EV charging stations than there were 5 years ago?

[txlibdem]

29. The cost of EV charging stations is 1 tenth of 1 percent what a H2 station costs

If that.

[OKIsItJustMe]

31. You say this, based upon…

What exactly?

Assuming that an EV charging station is $10,000 Your claim is that an H2 station will be $10,000,000!?

[txlibdem]

32. An EV charging station can cost as little as $1000 or as high as $5000

Somewhere in there is your answer. An H2 charging station will cost about $2.5 million at least.

[OKIsItJustMe]

34. Why do you say that?

Let’s talk about scales here:
That $1,000: Does that provide a facility? Or a home charging station?
That $2.5 million: Does that provide a facility? Or a home charging station?

http://europeanmotornews.com/2012/03/27/honda-introduces-solar-hydrogen-station-on-grounds-of-saitama-prefectural-office/

[font face=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][font size=5]HONDA INTRODUCES SOLAR HYDROGEN STATION ON GROUNDS OF SAITAMA PREFECTURAL OFFICE[/font]

Posted 27. Mar, 2012

[font size=3]TOKYO, Japan, 27 March, 2012 – Honda Motor Co., Ltd. today unveiled a Solar Hydrogen Station on the grounds of the Saitama Prefectural Office. The initiative is part of the Electric Vehicle Testing Program for Honda’s next-generation personal mobility products, in which Honda, Iwatani and Saitama Prefecture are currently collaborating. In a further initiative, Honda has equipped the FCX Clarity fuel cell electric vehicle with an outlet to function as a 9kW power source. Since the FCX Clarity uses a chemical reaction between hydrogen and oxygen to produce power with zero CO2 emissions, with its new outlet, the vehicle will be able to serve as a zero-emission mobile electric generator.

This is the first installation in Japan of a total system to produce, store and dispense hydrogen with ZERO CO[font size="1"]₂[/font] emissions. A high pressure water electrolysis system, uniquely developed by Honda, produces hydrogen. With no mechanical compressor, the system is nearly silent and highly energy efficient. Using Solar and grid power, the system is capable of producing 1.5kg of hydrogen within 24hours which enables an FCX Clarity to run approximately 150km or 90miles. Honda aims to further develop the system to offer clean energy sources for the home in the future.[/font][/font]

If the price tag reads $2,500,000, I doubt it will be in many homes…

[txlibdem]

37. A high pressure water electrolysis system produces hydrogen

"A high pressure water electrolysis system, uniquely developed by Honda, produces hydrogen."

You do know the meaning of the word "electrolysis" right?

"Using Solar and grid power, the system is capable of producing 1.5kg of hydrogen within 24hours which enables an FCX Clarity to run approximately 150km or 90miles."

Who was that poster who was complaining in an earlier post about a 8 hour charge time for 100 miles??? I guess those rules don't count when it's mom and pop's hydrogen that we're talking about?

"Honda has equipped the FCX Clarity fuel cell electric vehicle with an outlet to function as a 9kW power source."

Ok, that part I like. But there is nothing to stop a battery electric vehicle from doing the same. VIA Motors, Raser and Chrysler have produced a fleet pickup with a hybrid engine that will do the same thing. No new infrastructure required except switching the truck to natural gas or non-corn bio fuel if you want a non-oil solution.

http://www.raserev.com/motors-and-drives/motors-drives-multimedia/rasers-extended-range-electric-fleet-truck

[dmallind]

11. Which is cheaper? Fast chargers already sub 10k. Hydrogen stations?

[OKIsItJustMe]

17. Currently, hydrogen stations are much more than $10,000/pump

Then again, they’re also relatively rare.

How much does a gasoline filling station cost? (I notice they seem to get built.)

It’s something about demand and supply as I understand it.

[dmallind]

20. And hydrogen loses on both

Ther are tens of thousands of EVs with half a dozen new models launching in the next couple of years (AKA already in production startup)

There are < 1% thay number of hydrogen cars, and unlike EVs they absolutely need hugely expensive service stations - no 120v option or affordable home "L2".

I would love both to be viable, but hydrogen cars need the infrastructure first, and there's no morivation to build it with so few cars.

[OKIsItJustMe]

25. Interesting

How many commercial EV’s were there 5 years ago? And how well are they selling today?
http://www.hybridcars.com/news/chevrolet-volt-sales-february-nissan-leaf-sales-down-42045.html

[font face=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][font size=5]Chevrolet Volt Sales Up in February; Nissan Leaf Sales Down[/font]

Published March 2, 2012
By Huw Evans

[font size=3]As the Chevrolet Volt and Nissan Leaf continue to be watched in a perceived battle for sales supremacy in the electric vehicle segment, February sales figures show the Volt gaining ground.

According to General Motors, Chevrolet delivered 1,023 Volts last month, versus 478 Leafs – a significant change from January when 676 Nissans found owners, versus 603 Volts.

Last year, General Motors originally projected Volt sales of 10,000 units but only reached 7,770 cars from its December 2010 launch, which GM executives blamed in part on a federal battery investigation now since resolved. By contrast, Nissan, which has managed to avoid as much overt negative publicity, sold almost 9,700 LEAFs during the same period.

It should be noted these two cars are not identical technologies – the Leaf is a battery electric vehicle, and the Volt is an "extended-range electric vehicle" with gasoline backup. For its part at least, GM has repeatedly said it is “not a race,” but because they were both launched as groundbreaking electrified efforts by major competitive manufacturers around the same time last year, market watchers have called it a race anyway.

…[/font][/font]

There are dozens of FCEV’s launching in the next few years as well (i.e. 2015.) Initially (like EV’s) they will probably be too expensive for the mass market.

[dmallind]

39. You seem to have a strange idea of business

Nissan Oppama can produce about 2000 Leafs a month - no more. Been that way since the start.

In Japan it sells for the equivalent of 49K. Here it sells for 36K, with an added cost of many hundreds for shipping and duties.

Where would YOU send most of your production? You never seem to look at Japan sales - why is that exactly?

[txlibdem]

30. With an EV you can get your juice from any number of places

With an FCEV you don't have a choice: you have to go to the hydrogen station and pay whatever they want to charge you for it. No choice.

EV wins that round hands down.

[OKIsItJustMe]

35. It ain’t necessarily so…

A number of companies are working on home hydrogen filling (including Honda and GM.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_station#Hydrogen_home_stations

However, how many people fill their gasoline tanks at home?

[txlibdem]

38. Home hydrogen = natural gas according to your link

Hydrogen is not a fuel; it is an energy storage medium.

Why go through all of those extra steps to get a car to run on hydrogen when you're using dirty fracking natural gas as a source material?

Any electrolysis based H2 generator would be better used to charge up a battery electric vehicle's batteries -- cheaper and you'd get the benefits of no tail pipe without wasting energy making and storing hydrogen.

The math just doesn't add up for hydrogen vehicles. Sorry.

[txlibdem]

40. NRG Settlement Funds California’s ‘Electric Expressway’ EV Charger Network

NRG Settlement Funds California’s ‘Electric Expressway’ EV Charger Network

$120 million will buy thousands of chargers ordered by Governor Brown that startup Gridtest’s tool can certify.

Herman K. Trabish: March 26, 2012

A $120 million settlement between the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) and NRG Energy Inc. will fund the building of a network of charging stations for battery electric vehicles (BEVs) the length and width of the state, as ordered by California Governor Jerry Brown.

Startup Gridtest Systems' vehicle charging equipment test and measurement tools, said to be the first for the charging industry, can validate the network’s performance capabilities.

The CPUC-NRG money, a settlement stemming from the 2001 California energy crisis, will pay for a statewide infrastructure of at least 200 public fast-charging stations and another 10,000 plug-in units at 1,000 locations.

This is great news for Electric Vehicles. Another cool tidbit from the article: "All major California cities are to have the charging infrastructure be BEV-ready by 2015" (BEV stands for Battery Electric Vehicle).