Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Tansy_Gold

(17,860 posts)
Tue Jun 12, 2012, 07:51 PM Jun 2012

STOCK MARKET WATCH -- Wednesday, 13 June 2012

[font size=3]STOCK MARKET WATCH, Wednesday, 13 June 2012[font color=black][/font]


SMW for 12 June 2012

AT THE CLOSING BELL ON 12 June 2012
[center][font color=green]
Dow Jones 12,573.80 +162.57 (1.31%)
S&P 500 1,324.18 +15.25 (1.17%)
Nasdaq 2,843.07 +33.34 (1.19%)


[font color=red]10 Year 1.66% +0.03 (1.84%)
30 Year 2.77% +0.01 (0.36%) [font color=black]


[center]
[/font]


[HR width=85%]


[font size=2]Market Conditions During Trading Hours[/font]
[center]


[/center]



[font size=2]Euro, Yen, Loonie, Silver and Gold[center]

[/center]


[center]

[/center]


[HR width=95%]


[font color=black][font size=2]Handy Links - Market Data and News:[/font][/font]
[center]
Economic Calendar
Marketwatch Data
Bloomberg Economic News
Yahoo Finance
Google Finance
Bank Tracker
Credit Union Tracker
Daily Job Cuts
[/center]





[font color=black][font size=2]Handy Links - Government Issues:[/font][/font]
[center]
LegitGov
Open Government
Earmark Database
USA spending.gov
[/center]




[div]
[font color=red]Financial Sector Officials Convicted since 1/20/09 = [/font][font color=red]12[/font]
2/2/12 David Higgs and Salmaan Siddiqui, Credit Suisse, plead guilty to conspiracy involving valuation of MBS
3/6/12 Allen Stanford, former Caribbean billionaire and general schmuck, convicted on 13 of 14 counts in $2.2B Ponzi scheme, faces 20+ years in prison



[HR width=95%]

[center]
[HR width=95%]
[font size=3][font color=red]This thread contains opinions and observations. Individuals may post their experiences, inferences and opinions on this thread. However, it should not be construed as advice. It is unethical (and probably illegal) for financial recommendations to be given here.[/font][/font][/font color=red][font color=black]


60 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
STOCK MARKET WATCH -- Wednesday, 13 June 2012 (Original Post) Tansy_Gold Jun 2012 OP
toon Tansy_Gold Jun 2012 #1
We wouldn't be on this thread if we weren't obsessive Demeter Jun 2012 #4
. Tansy_Gold Jun 2012 #5
The Universal Baloney Curve girl gone mad Jun 2012 #2
That's an X-Rated graph, ggm Demeter Jun 2012 #3
Are you saying you want me to hide the sausage? n/t girl gone mad Jun 2012 #7
Is this turning into a middle-of-the-week Tansy_Gold Jun 2012 #8
There's no time like the present Demeter Jun 2012 #35
Can't leave you women alone for half a day and it's right to the baloney factory. westerebus Jun 2012 #41
If we weren't left alone so much... Demeter Jun 2012 #57
Now you tell me. westerebus Jun 2012 #60
A World of Trouble if the Spanish Banking Crisis Spreads By Marshall Auerback Demeter Jun 2012 #6
Joseph Stiglitz: The Price of Inequality Demeter Jun 2012 #9
Hildebrand taking up key role at BlackRock Demeter Jun 2012 #10
i'm putting myself to bed. Can't take any more excitement Demeter Jun 2012 #11
IMF urges Japan to tackle debt problem Demeter Jun 2012 #12
Hong Kong urged to review dollar peg Demeter Jun 2012 #13
another crack in the dollar... dixiegrrrrl Jun 2012 #30
Agile Romney gains momentum Demeter Jun 2012 #14
JPMorgan doomsday scenario revealed Demeter Jun 2012 #15
Is it accessible without joining anywhere? nt spotbird Jun 2012 #29
Yes - follow instructions below Po_d Mainiac Jun 2012 #31
For Euro Zone, Salvation Must Come From Within By Paul Krugman Demeter Jun 2012 #16
The Debt Is Not a Measure of Generational Burdens By Dean Baker Demeter Jun 2012 #17
When the debt is owed to foreign sources Po_d Mainiac Jun 2012 #32
Exactly wrong. Who buys the bonds is insignificant. Egalitarian Thug Jun 2012 #33
We would write them a check for $2.6 trillion. westerebus Jun 2012 #42
A couple of things here. First, what? Write a check to who & why? Egalitarian Thug Jun 2012 #44
First, what? westerebus Jun 2012 #50
Ah. I have no idea where this notion came from, but it just isn't so. Egalitarian Thug Jun 2012 #54
Like any bond holder, I like China, may sell my bonds to a third party in the bond market. westerebus Jun 2012 #56
And you would be paid is USD, but while you're getting your dollars, more bonds are being sold Egalitarian Thug Jun 2012 #58
Likely just a matter of time Po_d Mainiac Jun 2012 #48
Got it. westerebus Jun 2012 #51
Try holding to one thought at a time Po_d Mainiac Jun 2012 #45
Never mind. If you ever stop to wonder why the world is kicking our ass, Egalitarian Thug Jun 2012 #46
Adios MF n/t Po_d Mainiac Jun 2012 #49
Since I know pretty much nothing about elementary economics Tansy_Gold Jun 2012 #52
Since you're so nice and willing to jump into it. First, we do not borrow from any external lender, Egalitarian Thug Jun 2012 #53
I assure you, ET, I am not nice. Tansy_Gold Jun 2012 #55
I take it you disagree. n/t Egalitarian Thug Jun 2012 #59
Chris Martenson transitioning to new site DemReadingDU Jun 2012 #18
the rain gods have apparently moved in -- xchrom Jun 2012 #19
China's growth may dip below 7% xchrom Jun 2012 #20
Greece 'may have to leave euro' xchrom Jun 2012 #21
Like that will work Demeter Jun 2012 #34
{ireland} Ponzi financing and the property bubble xchrom Jun 2012 #22
Italy hit by market fears of contagion from Spain Eugene Jun 2012 #23
World Bank: Developing nations face weak growth xchrom Jun 2012 #24
SPAIN'S SWEETHEART BAILOUT May Be 3% Interest, No Payment For 5 Years xchrom Jun 2012 #25
Everyone has been lying xchrom Jun 2012 #26
Te lo dije. (n/m) Tansy_Gold Jun 2012 #28
Can Italy Break Out of Its Downward Spiral? xchrom Jun 2012 #27
Oama Team Wants Radical New Powers For Multinational Corporations girl gone mad Jun 2012 #36
WHAT! Demeter Jun 2012 #37
From the second he nominated Kirk, I knew.. girl gone mad Jun 2012 #38
Remember, remember, the 25th of November n/t Tansy_Gold Jun 2012 #39
Give him the "Game of Thrones", George W. Bush treatment. Fuddnik Jun 2012 #40
Nobel Prize-Winner Elinor Ostrom Dies (power of commons) bread_and_roses Jun 2012 #43
Post removed Post removed Jun 2012 #47

Tansy_Gold

(17,860 posts)
1. toon
Tue Jun 12, 2012, 07:55 PM
Jun 2012

There were a bunch of good ones today on "The private sector is doing fine," but I figured I'd better change that theme before someone accuses me of obsessing. You know, kinda like Rick Scott is obsessing about voter fraud.

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
3. That's an X-Rated graph, ggm
Tue Jun 12, 2012, 08:33 PM
Jun 2012

I don't think we are designed to accommodate such. "revealing the baloney" is just too much for this goddess.

westerebus

(2,976 posts)
41. Can't leave you women alone for half a day and it's right to the baloney factory.
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 07:06 PM
Jun 2012

Gawd I love women with a sense of humor.

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
6. A World of Trouble if the Spanish Banking Crisis Spreads By Marshall Auerback
Tue Jun 12, 2012, 08:47 PM
Jun 2012

WHAT DO YOU MEAN "IF", MARSHALL? JUST WHAT BARRIER IS SUPPOSED TO STOP THIS STUFF FROM SPREADING? HAS ANYONE TALKED ABOUT THAT, PROPOSED SOMETHING THAT ACTUALLY STOPS PREDATORY FINANCIAL BEHAVIORS? SIGH...

http://www.alternet.org/story/155834/a_world_of_trouble_if_the_spanish_banking_crisis_spreads?page=entire

Until flaws in the euro are addressed, the crisis is likely to simmer on...IT'S NOT JUST THE EURO, GUYS, IT'S THE PREDATORY FINANCIAL BEHAVIORS...Spain's banks are in a world of trouble, as you've undoubtedly heard. They are strained by loans made over the course of a a building boom that went bust in 2008, two recessions in the last three years, and the highest unemployment rate among developed nations. Misguided austerity policies have only made things worse. Everybody is biting their fingernails, trying to figure out if the bailout Brussels recently concocted will work. Stocks are reacting in an up and down roller-coaster ride. Depositors are taking their money out of banks in the most vulnerable countries. The biggest fear is that if the bailout fails, the contagion will spread even further into Europe's core and eventually to the shores of the US itself.

That fear is justified.

The 100 billion euro proposed recapitalization for Spanish banks is not a small number. It would be like a $1.6 trillion capital injection into the U.S. banks if it was projected onto the scale of the U.S. economy. That is greater than everything that was done by the Fed and the Treasury to shore up the capital of U.S. financial institutions during the Great Crisis. Nonetheless, I judge that compared to the size of Spain’s non-financial private debt and the size of its bank run, this is a mere bandaid. And remember, even during the darkest days of the Great Recession of 2008/'09, the U.S. did not have a bank run.

Even though Spain's authorities have trumpeted the fact that the "assistance" (as Madrid's leaders laughingly keep calling their bailout) comes without conditions, it is worth recalling that the Spanish government is in the midst of a huge fiscal retrenchment over the next year. They are trying to take government spending as a percentage of GDP from a deficit to GDP ratio of 8.9 percent in 2011 to under 3 percent in 2013 at a time that GDP is forecast to decline by a further 1.7 percent. That's a bad thing. Econ 101 says that when you take spending power from the economy, a crisis is almost certain to worsen.

Like Ireland, Spain has faced declining real estate values as a result of the housing bust, and these declines are closely connected to banking losses due to things like foreclosure and bad loans. The key difference between Ireland and Spain is that Ireland has now experienced three years of wrenching austerity. In the case of Dublin, there is some degree of confidence that real estate prices have bottomed out. As Yanis Varoufakis notes, at least this gives the Irish some clarity, despite a poor outlook. Not so in Spain:

In Spain, by contrast, the downward dynamic of real estate prices is nowhere near a resting point. Some say that real estate has another 40% to lose before it reaches equilibrium. Which means that the banks’ black holes may be much larger than it seems.


*********************************************************************

Marshall Auerback is a market analyst and commentator.

ANOTHER MUST READ ARTICLE--PEOPLE ARE PUTTING THEIR BRAINS INTO THIS.

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
9. Joseph Stiglitz: The Price of Inequality
Tue Jun 12, 2012, 09:35 PM
Jun 2012
http://www.alternet.org/story/155738/joseph_stiglitz%3A_the_price_of_inequality?page=entire

What happened to America, land of opportunity? In his new book, which hit the shelves yesterday, Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz takes up that burning question. Taking a long, hard look at the global specter of inequality, Stiglitz describes what causes it, why the trend endangers our future and what to do about it. Stiglitz begins by describing the broader failures of our economic system and how these failures have led to a widespread sense of unfairness and reduced opportunity for most of us...

"...as our economic system is seen to fail for most citizens, and as our political system seems to be captured by moneyed interests, confidence in our democracy and in our market economy will erode along with our global influence. As the reality sinks in that we are no longer a country of opportunity and that even our long-vaunted rule of law and system of justice have been compromised, even our sense of national identity may be put into jeopardy.

In some countries the Occupy Wall Street movement has become closely allied with the antiglobalization movement. They do have some things in common: a belief not only that something is wrong but also that change is possible. The problem, however, is not that globalization is bad or wrong but that governments are managing it so poorly—largely for the benefit of special interests. The interconnectedness of peoples, countries, and economies around the globe is a development that can be used as effectively to promote prosperity as to spread greed and misery. The same is true for the market economy: the power of markets is enormous, but they have no inherent moral character. We have to decide how to manage them. At their best, markets have played a central role in the stunning increases in productivity and standards of living in the past two hundred years—increases that far exceeded those of the previous two millennia.

But government has also played a major role in these advances, a fact that free-market advocates typically fail to acknowledge. On the other hand, markets can also concentrate wealth, pass environmental costs on to society, and abuse workers and consumers. For all these reasons, it is plain that markets must be tamed and tempered to make sure they work to the benefit of most citizens. And that has to be done repeatedly, to ensure that they continue to do so. That happened in the United States in the Progressive Era, when competition laws were passed for the first time. It happened in the New Deal, when Social Security, employment, and minimum-wage laws were passed.

The message of Occupy Wall Street—and of so many other protesters around the world—is that markets once again must be tamed and tempered. The consequences of not doing so are serious: within a meaningful democracy, where the voices of ordinary citizens are heard, we cannot maintain an open and globalized market system, at least not in the form that we know it, if that system year after year makes those citizens worse-off. One or the other will have to give—either our politics or our economics."


MORE AT LINK

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
10. Hildebrand taking up key role at BlackRock
Tue Jun 12, 2012, 09:39 PM
Jun 2012


Philipp Hildebrand, the former chairman of the Swiss National Bank, is joining BlackRock as vice-chairman and will oversee the firm’s largest institutional client relationships outside of the US.

The move to the world’s largest money manager marks Mr Hildebrand’s active return to finance after his resignation in January as chairman of the Swiss central bank after a series of controversial currency trades by his wife.

Read more >>
http://link.ft.com/r/VKY5JJ/7ALLXO/XBAN6/B5FDEB/L95AD8/HK/t?a1=2012&a2=6&a3=12
 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
12. IMF urges Japan to tackle debt problem
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 04:28 AM
Jun 2012

Japan has come under renewed pressure to tackle its huge public debt with the fund calling on the government to raise consumption tax to at least 15%

Read more >>
http://link.ft.com/r/R5WAEE/II2AGV/T10SH/HYLSNK/DW08SI/RF/t?a1=2012&a2=6&a3=13

WHO ASKED THEM?
 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
13. Hong Kong urged to review dollar peg
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 04:29 AM
Jun 2012

Joseph Yam, former HKMA head, says the link to US currency is not ‘sacrosanct’ and that pegging to the renminbi should be considered

Read more >>
http://link.ft.com/r/R5WAEE/II2AGV/T10SH/HYLSNK/30UN4J/RF/t?a1=2012&a2=6&a3=13

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
30. another crack in the dollar...
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 11:57 AM
Jun 2012

Middle East and Asia ain't respecting our greenbacks....guess we need to flex our military muscles some more.

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
14. Agile Romney gains momentum
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 04:30 AM
Jun 2012

It is now a central theme of the Republican candidate to portray himself as a champion of the struggling middle class

Read more >>
http://link.ft.com/r/R5WAEE/II2AGV/T10SH/HYLSNK/WTSE2O/RF/t?a1=2012&a2=6&a3=13

THE MIDDLE CLASS...NOT JUST FOR BREAKFAST
 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
15. JPMorgan doomsday scenario revealed
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 04:31 AM
Jun 2012

As JPMorgan Chase’s chief investment office was engaging in lossmaking trades, other parts of the bank were working out a plan if it suffered a “catastrophic, idiosyncratic event”.

Read more >>
http://link.ft.com/r/M2ZOXX/MSM58F/204L2/SP2214/ORX5LY/ZH/t?a1=2012&a2=6&a3=13

Po_d Mainiac

(4,183 posts)
31. Yes - follow instructions below
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 01:37 PM
Jun 2012

Enter JPMorgan doomsday scenario revealed into the search window for google or bing

Hit on the tag in the search window. If you access the story using a search engine, the full article appears without subscribing. PM if you have any trouble.

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
16. For Euro Zone, Salvation Must Come From Within By Paul Krugman
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 04:35 AM
Jun 2012
http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/9740-for-euro-zone-salvation-must-come-from-within

Jeremy Siegel, a professor of finance at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School, echoes a lot of what some of us have been saying for years about the infeasibility of internal devaluation in a commentary article published in the Financial Times on May 22, but then he argues that the answer is devaluation of the euro as a whole.

Um, against whom?

I mean, it's not as if the United States or Japan are towers of economic strength, easily able to provide the demand Europe lacks. That leaves emerging markets. And while I and others have been pushing for years for an end to Chinese currency manipulation, China is at this point (a) not looking very strong itself and (b) just not that big in the world economy — not yet.

More generally, Europe as a whole, like the United States, remains a relatively closed economy. Its salvation must be mainly internal. Now, if devaluation is a code word that means raising the inflation target, fine.

The last time I got to hear the late economist James Tobin, he gave a talk in which he joked that as far as he could tell, all the world's major currencies needed to devalue against each other. This is sort of one of those times — and what that actually tells you is that we need fiscal and monetary stimulus....

FOLLOWED BY HISTORICAL NOTE OF INTEREST...MUST READ
 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
17. The Debt Is Not a Measure of Generational Burdens By Dean Baker
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 04:45 AM
Jun 2012
http://truth-out.org/news/item/9711-the-debt-is-not-a-measure-of-generational-burdens

O.K. folks, today we are going to learn why the national debt tells us nothing about the burdens or benefits that we are bequeathing to future generations. This will require a few minutes of clear thinking, so for the moment put out of your head whatever nonsense you just heard from a politician or economic commentator about the debt or deficit.

Suppose that we have two economies at the same level of per capita income, both growing at the rate of 2.0 percent a year. Let's call them Germany and the United States. For simplicity, we will say that both have zero growth in the labor force so that the growth is all due to productivity growth, meaning that each worker is producing 2.0 percent more for every hour that she works. After ten years, both economies will be roughly 20 percent richer. Now, suppose that Germany reaches 2022 with zero public debt. It managed to run surpluses and still maintain healthy growth. By contrast, the United States had to run budget deficits to keep its economy moving. By 2022, its ratio of debt to GDP is 200 percent. That's not quite up there with Japan, but substantially larger than anything the United States will see anytime soon under almost any circumstances.

The next question is which country is richer? If you answered Germany, then you get an op-ed column in The Washington Post and an "F" in economics. You were just told that the countries started with economies of the same size and that they grew at the same rate, how could Germany be richer?

If your inner deficit hawk is screaming that the people in the United States will have to pay interest on this massive debt, whereas the people in Germany will have no comparable burden, then remember the interest on the debt is also paid out to people in the United States. This is a distributional question, not a question about the wealth of the country as a whole...The moral of this story should be that you can find absolutely nothing about the burden on future generations by looking at the government's debt. Those who rant about the government debt and claim that it will bankrupt our children are really just trying to tell you that they don't know anything about the economy.
 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
33. Exactly wrong. Who buys the bonds is insignificant.
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 02:15 PM
Jun 2012

Last edited Wed Jun 13, 2012, 10:06 PM - Edit history (1)

What would matter however, is what the respective nations did with the income/debt. The nation that invests in its own people, infrastructure, economy will do well, the nation that sinks its revenues into dead-end spending such as on the military will do badly.

Your statement is akin to the laughable-if-it-weren't-so-sad cries of "What if China calls in their loans!1!"

westerebus

(2,976 posts)
42. We would write them a check for $2.6 trillion.
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 07:15 PM
Jun 2012

The US is money sovereign.

Greece not so much.

We can print into hyper inflation, they can beggar their neighbor in the EU.

Depending on whose currency you use, it does matter.

HAD TO CHANGE A BILLION IN FOR A TRILLION, ME BAD.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
44. A couple of things here. First, what? Write a check to who & why?
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 10:10 PM
Jun 2012

And second; Hyperinflation has nothing to do with "printing money" except in the most tangential sense.

westerebus

(2,976 posts)
50. First, what?
Thu Jun 14, 2012, 12:57 AM
Jun 2012

Did you not reference China as a holder of US debt? The check would be to them should they cash in.

Hyperinflation is a result of debasing a currency, often refereed to as "printing money".

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
54. Ah. I have no idea where this notion came from, but it just isn't so.
Thu Jun 14, 2012, 04:27 AM
Jun 2012

Neither China nor any holder of our bonds can cash in, call in the loan, or whatever you want to call it. Please see the reply to Tansy_Gold below for a slightly more detailed explanation.

And Hyperinflation is not the result of printing money, though printing money is usually the response to it. Inflation is the rise in the cost of goods due to either a shortage of goods, or more commonly, an excess of currency chasing those goods.

Hyperinflation is caused by a widespread loss of faith in a currency so that no one wants to hold it because they believe or know that it will become worthless. IOW, when there is a complete disconnect between the currency and any perceived value.

westerebus

(2,976 posts)
56. Like any bond holder, I like China, may sell my bonds to a third party in the bond market.
Thu Jun 14, 2012, 09:12 AM
Jun 2012

I do intend to profit from such a sale if possible, along with other investors that see merit (profit) in such an exchange.

I will not be paid in other bonds, unless I choose to swap maturities, that's something different than selling a bond.

With the sale, I expect to be paid in dollars for US bonds.

If there was an excessive excess of dollars inflating away the perceived value of the dollar, you get hyperinflation.

The response to inflation is not printing more dollars. The response is raising interest rates.

The response to deflation is printing more dollars. If that ends in a tie, you reach zero.







 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
58. And you would be paid is USD, but while you're getting your dollars, more bonds are being sold
Thu Jun 14, 2012, 01:48 PM
Jun 2012

for even more Euros, Shekels, Drachmas, & seashells, creating more dollars. The outgo is covered by this income and usually more. Right now we're paying out more in old interest promises than we're taking in, and as the cycle progresses and the bonds sold today come back we will be in the opposite position. At least that's the theory and history thus far.

So Hyperinflation is defined (by most) as inflation in excess of 50% p/mo and that doesn't just happen because more people are trying to buy more of the latest gadget than the gadgetmaker can produce. Civil war, war, the IMF, natural disaster, something so unstabilizing that the government is threatened with collapse and has to start creating excessive sums of money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation
hyperinflation is rooted in a deterioration of the monetary base, that is the confidence that there is a store of value which the currency will be able to command later. In this model, the perceived risk of holding currency rises dramatically, and sellers demand increasingly high premiums to accept the currency. This in turn leads to a greater fear that the currency will collapse, causing even higher premiums.


http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/hyperinflation.html
Ruinously high increase (50 percent or more per month) in prices due to the near total collapse of a country's monetary system, rendering its currency almost worthless as a medium of exchange. Although hyperinflation is caused mainly by excessive deficit spending (financed by printing more money) by a government, some economists believe that social breakdown leads to hyperinflation (not vice versa), and that its roots lie in political rather than economic causes.

Po_d Mainiac

(4,183 posts)
48. Likely just a matter of time
Thu Jun 14, 2012, 12:34 AM
Jun 2012

before drachmas start being printed.

Any EUD, U$D, CHF, etc. that remain in country, will be in high demand. Official exchange rates ain't gonna get much attention on the streets.

My wife and I were in Belize during their mini 'spring of discontent.' (April 2005) The protestors did succeed in shutting down the entire phone system for a few days. Land, cell, and internet service became an instant memory. Most of Belmopan and Belize City got reconnected by day 4, but the rest of the country went deaf and dumb for a couple weeks.

Plastic didn't swipe.. Gringo tourists that didn't have currency in their pockets were totally screwed.

I'll never forget this one exchange between a typical "ugly American" tourist and a bunch of locals out on one of the Cayes. She was trying to raise cash to get off the island by selling the contents of her suitcase. She's really phreaking out, had the tears flowing and the whole nine yards. She holds up this blouse, and a local says she'll give her a dollah for it ($1 dollah Belize = $0.50 US) "Do you have any idea what this blouse is worth" she croaked.

The local looked her straight in the eye, and calm as calm could be be answered "It's worth a dollah to me"...By the time the auction ended, some of the locals walked away with some decent threads on the cheap and the "ugly American" had just enough cash to get a seat on the next water taxi heading for the mainland.

I got an idea that scene is going to be played time and time again along the South coast of the Continent when the ATM's go down.

westerebus

(2,976 posts)
51. Got it.
Thu Jun 14, 2012, 01:27 AM
Jun 2012

I understand them letting you out of the country, I'm amazed they let you back in.

You went thru Canada as a missionary of good will no doubt.

The wife, good cover story.

Like I just happened to be in.. so any way..the ambassador was really pissed.. until he heard about the gun fire... which was none of my doing...all's well that ends well.. his daughter didn't act all engaged.. but that wasn't what started it.. I claim mission creep.. and the local department of agriculture envoy was OK with that..so, ugly american go home.. and I did.

Po_d Mainiac

(4,183 posts)
45. Try holding to one thought at a time
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 11:30 PM
Jun 2012

If I take out a loan from a foreign source, interest paid on that note is no longer an asset of my home country. If it's done often enough, there is a crisis due to a cash shortage.

And whatever the loan is used for changes nothing in that regard.

A country that finances its debt from within (Public and private) maintains the same level of assets. A country that goes outside of its borders for financing exports wealth in the form of the amount of interest paid.

And that same principle can be applied to an individual doing business (taking out a loan) with a local credit union or JPM. With a credit union The profit generated from the interest stays within the community vs lining a pocket in Lower Manhatten.

Laugh all you want, I'm not amused.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
46. Never mind. If you ever stop to wonder why the world is kicking our ass,
Thu Jun 14, 2012, 12:02 AM
Jun 2012

look in the mirror. Maybe somebody else in here has the patience to give a lesson in elementary economics. I've done my time.

Tansy_Gold

(17,860 posts)
52. Since I know pretty much nothing about elementary economics
Thu Jun 14, 2012, 01:38 AM
Jun 2012

and pretty much go on gut instinct and what passes for common sense, allow me to point out that there is a great deal of criticism of such external lenders as the IMF because they demand structural adjustments in the economies of those nations (usually the so-called "developing" nations) they lend to. The terms of the loans are set by these lenders (sometimes known as foreigners), who have no vested interest in the economic health of the nation borrowers but only in the profits that can be extracted. Thus the debtor nation's resources are sold at fixed prices that may be below market, and earned wealth leaves the nation to repay debt (including interest) rather than develop infrastructure.

Unless a nation is itself in business via nationalised industries, it can only repay its debt by collecting it from its citizens in the form of taxes. As debt mounts, more taxes must be collected, more money flows out of the national economy. There is less to be spent on roads and bridges, schools and defense, health care, social services, the arts, etc. As infrastructure collapses, so does the economy, making repayment of those debts ever more and more difficult, because the debt being repaid is ALWAYS more than what was borrowed.

And when it is financial institutions that are being "bailed out" with these loans, a portion of the borrowed money will simply go to the banksters themselves and not into the economy. In essence the bailout funds are replacing earned monies that have been extracted from the economies, earned monies that could be clawed back into the economies if there were the will to do so. After all, those funds were there at one time, so where did they go?

The whole bail-out concept is based on the myth that all those funds just "dried up." No, they didn't. They remained very liquid as they flowed smoothly into the bankster's pockets. All that needs to be done is to siphon them back into the economy where they belong.

But of course, I could be totally and completely wrong.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
53. Since you're so nice and willing to jump into it. First, we do not borrow from any external lender,
Thu Jun 14, 2012, 03:05 AM
Jun 2012

America 'borrows' from only one source the Federal Reserve, right? (we do pay an exorbitant price for this, but that's another issue)

There is no comparable entity to the IMF as an external lender in our model. There is no loan per se, so that's where the scenario begins to beak down. The bonds are issued and sold into the markets at a fixed time/rate, this intermediary acts as a firewall, and thus who buys the bond is irrelevant as the maturity value is fixed to that bond and that rate is set to reflect the anticipated growth for that period. The money that is represented by that bond is money that did not exist prior to its issue, so the money is not a loss in any other area of the economy except for an infinitesimal fraction due to the devaluation of the USD by the amount of the bond.

The repayment of those bonds does depend on government revenues, but there are many more sources of government revenue than the taxpayer, and that is where we have all these problems with handing out corporate welfare in all its many forms, all of which squeeze revenues and accelerate the process of devaluation.

Should there not be enough money, or if the current environment makes it advantageous in other ways such as a boom/bubble, new bonds will be issued to make the repayment in lieu of any cash outlay. That's why it is not always the case that the amount being repaid is in excess of the original issue in practical terms. For example there are 30 year bonds coming in at rates far in excess of the current rate so by covering those bonds with new bonds issued at the current rates is far better than writing a check, something that is just not done at all anymore because of this system. Add to this the constant devaluation of the USD and you see that the costs are eaten up and the only real loss in the process is the money we pay the Fed for the initial issue.

Basically it's gigantic shell game that only a large, sovereign, and potentially self sustaining economy can run, but as with any game, over the long run the house always wins.

In the original scenario we were talking about two equal governments growing at equal rates but with America running a constant deficit while Germany does not and comparing the relative outcomes in regard to wealth. That's where I came in with the position that if our hypothetical America was investing in itself while running those deficits they become insignificant as the returns on those investments far outstrip any deficit expenses.

Now the bankster bail outs are a completely different issue and are horribly toxic because of what you laid out in your reply. They are strictly an external loss made worse by the fact that they are not and never will be paid back in any sense that a human being might understand, but rather covered over with accounting practices for which legislation was required to make legal.

DemReadingDU

(16,000 posts)
18. Chris Martenson transitioning to new site
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 06:46 AM
Jun 2012

6/11/12 At long last, the new site is ready for launch!

ChrisMartenson.com is in the process of being replaced by PeakProsperity.com. This transition, which has just started, will take about 2-3 days.

We're very proud and excited about it. There's a lot to bring you up to speed on, so let's dive right in.

First: while we migrate over to the new site over the next several days, this ChrisMartenson.com site will be frozen in "read only" mode -- meaning you won't be able to post comments to articles or Forum threads, or purchase an enrollment.

The migration process should take 2-3 days. Once it's completed, the new site will replace this one. We're hoping everything is up and running by Friday (but you never know how complicated switchovers like this will go, so please keep your fingers crossed!).

Second: here's what WON'T be changing with the new site -- all of the past ChrisMartenson.com content will be available on the new site. All of the articles, comments, guides, Forum threads, etc on the site today will still readily be found after we make the site switchover.

You should look at this new site as keeping all of the things you like about ChrisMartenson.com, AND adding a bunch of new improvements and features to make the experience even better.

Third: so what should you expect from the new site?

Well, it's probably just easier to show you. Take a few minutes to watch the video below, which gives an overview of the new site (and the new brand!). FYI: it's much easier to view in "full screen" mode:

click to watch 3 videos
http://www.chrismartenson.com/blog/new-site-finally-here/76354



xchrom

(108,903 posts)
20. China's growth may dip below 7%
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 07:06 AM
Jun 2012
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0613/breaking14.html

China's annual economic growth could fall below 7 per cent in the second quarter if weak activity persists in June, an influential government adviser said today.

The forecast by Zheng Xinli, a former deputy director of the Chinese communist party's policy research office, is among the most bearish by any government and private sector economists.

"GDP growth in the second quarter could fall below 7 per cent if there is no significant improvements in economic data for June," the overseas edition of the People's Daily quoted Zheng Xinli, now deputy head of the China Centre for International Economic Exchanges (CCIEE), a top government think-tank, as saying.

China's industrial output growth usually outpaces GDP growth by 3-5 percentage points, the newspaper cited Mr Xinli as saying.

xchrom

(108,903 posts)
21. Greece 'may have to leave euro'
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 07:10 AM
Jun 2012
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0613/breaking23.html


Europe may need to sacrifice Greece's membership of the single currency in order to convince Germany to put in more money to save the euro, Britain's finance minister George Osborne has suggested

As the EU's biggest economy and largest contributor, Germany holds the key to how the bloc can rescue its troubled, smaller economies and whether Europe is able to agree on a banking union to end 2.5 years of debt turmoil.

Britain and the rest of the European Union have clashed repeatedly over how to fix the crisis, with London refusing bluntly to take any part in any euro zone banking union.

“I ultimately don't know whether Greece needs to leave the euro in order for the euro zone to do the things necessary to make their currency survive,” Mr Osborne said in remarks published today in the Times newspaper.
 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
34. Like that will work
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 03:05 PM
Jun 2012

The German banksters are tightwads. So are the people. They aren't the caring sharing, giving type to bring former competitors into the fold while singing Kumbayah. They want every pfennig back, plus the interest.

The Germans are going to be very disappointed.

xchrom

(108,903 posts)
22. {ireland} Ponzi financing and the property bubble
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 07:14 AM
Jun 2012
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0613/1224317808046.html

?ts=1339585744
Lending to developers was the rotten core of Irish banking and it ultimately collapsed Anglo and led to the virtual nationalisation of the financial system

COMMENTATORS HAVE tended to interpret the Irish property market bubble as a homogeneous phenomenon. This approach needs to be seriously questioned in order to identify the dominant virus that produced the collapse of the Irish banking system.

After falling significantly in 2001, property prices started to move upwards again from 2002, heralding the arrival of a second phase of the property market boom – a boom that very quickly metamorphosed into a bubble.

The character of this second phase was quite distinct from the first, which prevailed up to 2000. Mortgage loans to finance the residential property market grew again at a fast pace, aided by the new incentives of low interest rates and financial innovations in the form of tracker mortgages, 100 per cent (and higher) loan-to-value mortgages and extensions of the length of loans to 30 years and more.

Eugene

(61,899 posts)
23. Italy hit by market fears of contagion from Spain
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 08:05 AM
Jun 2012

Source: Associated Press

Italy hit by market fears of contagion from Spain

By COLLEEN BARRY, AP Business Writer – 14 minutes ago

MILAN (AP) — Italian Premier Mario Monti saw nearly seven months of confidence-building by his government wiped out by Wednesday, when a debt auction showed the country's borrowing rates were back near levels last seen in December.

A sale of 12-month bonds, a warm-up for Thursday's weightier long-term debt auction, demonstrated the speed with which market jitters spread from Spain following Madrid's weekend concession that its banks need a bailout.

Italy paid an interest rate of 3.972 percent — up from 2.34 percent in a similar auction last month — to borrow €6.5 billion ($8.12 billion) in 12-month money from bond markets. Though demand was strong, the high rate suggests investors worry Italy may need a rescue of its own if Spain takes one.

"Contagion is back with a vengeance, and Italy is bearing the brunt of the fallout from Spain's request for external assistance," sovereign debt expert Nicholas Spiro said. Markets, he noted, are no longer differentiating fiscally-stronger Italy from Spain, "which is a sign that panic has set in."

[font size=1]-snip-[/font]

Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hXj0_1wCGVGON2wpHN-KBWpwtHoQ?docId=c6615fb47e4a4054ae5431767a2f9979

xchrom

(108,903 posts)
24. World Bank: Developing nations face weak growth
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 08:05 AM
Jun 2012
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18419643


Developing nations should brace themselves for weak growth and "tougher times", the World Bank has warned.

It said that there may be "a long period of volatility in the global economy" as the eurozone debt crisis escalates.

The bank forecast that developing economies will grow by 5.3% this year, down from 6.1% in 2011.

It urged policymakers to take adequate long-term measures to ensure that they can sustain growth.

xchrom

(108,903 posts)
25. SPAIN'S SWEETHEART BAILOUT May Be 3% Interest, No Payment For 5 Years
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 09:10 AM
Jun 2012
http://www.businessinsider.com/spain-bailout-terms-2012-6

When the Spanish bank bailout was announced, the head of the European Commission made a big show of saying that the money would be provided on good terms for the lenders.
That appears to have been a crock.
Rumors are beginning to circulate about the terms of the deal:
The Spanish government organization receiving the funds—FROB—will likely have to repay the funds at a 3 percent interest rate.
It won't start making payments until 2017.
It will have a 15-year repayment schedule.
Banks could ultimately have to repay the loans at an interest rate of 8.5 percent.
Given that Spain's 10-year bonds are currently trading at yields over 6 percent, Spain could be getting a sweetheart deal relative to the price it would pay to recapitalize banks on its own.
That is, if concerns about investor subordination and the size of the bailout end up being unwarranted.
Regardless of all these details, however, it is important to remember that the terms of the deal will not be finalized until the end of this month at the earliest.


Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/spain-bailout-terms-2012-6#ixzz1xg88dzmI

xchrom

(108,903 posts)
26. Everyone has been lying
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 09:26 AM
Jun 2012
http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/article/2164091-everyone-has-been-lying

he disaster of the Spanish banking sector shames the state. What brought it on was myth-building. The complicity between public and private in what amounts to a crime. The past profits earned by some, well out of proportion to the harm done to others. It was brought on by denials, by contagion, by lies. Everyone is lying. Everyone is lying to the same listeners: to the taxpayer…. Pardon: to the people.

Today we have the right to whisper about what happens behind other people’s curtains. The house, after all, is mortgaged – and we, the “Europeans”, are the ones who will pay for it. What difference is there, basically, between Greece, which lied about its public accounts, and Spanish banks, which lied about their balance sheets?

The Spanish problem resembles that of Ireland, in that it is a banking crisis, more closely than it does that of Portugal. In Portugal, none of the ten possible problems are crushing – but the country has all of them at once. In Spain the evil comes from an incestuous relationship between cajas de ahorro [savings banks] and regional political institutions, coupled with a housing bubble in which everyone had a hand – and from which everyone benefited: the banks from the loans, the building sector from the construction boom, real estate dealers through the buying and selling, the state through taxes, the parties – we know how they benefited – and the government from the growth in the GDP statistics.

The housing bubble and its effect have been plain to see for just under two years. But Spain has done everything wrong – the previous Zapatero government by putting off dealing with the issue, and the Rajoy government by swiftly losing its determination.

xchrom

(108,903 posts)
27. Can Italy Break Out of Its Downward Spiral?
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 09:31 AM
Jun 2012
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/italian-economy-struggling-as-euro-crisis-visits-rome-a-838598.html

Claudio Pesaro actually had big plans for this year. The 35-year-old Italian, who still lives at home, wanted to buy his own place, marry his girlfriend and have children. But even though he has saved more than a third of the purchase price for a property, he can't find a bank that is willing to lend him the rest. His job is also at risk, as his company is making losses. As a result, he will have to put his plans on ice for now.

Marco Michelli wanted to go into business for himself, starting a microbrewery complete with pub. Beer is popular in Italy, especially among the young. But the municipal authorities hampered him with conditions and fees, and the bank withdrew its commitment to fund his business. That was the end of his project.
These are just two typical stories from Italy, which is currently in the fourth year of its crisis. The mood in the country is depressed. The number of people committing suicide for economic reasons is increasing. The enthusiasm with which Italy greeted the introduction of the euro has long vanished. Now, around 65 percent of the population are skeptical of the common currency.

Hence, Italians were relatively tranquil in their reactions to the latest "Black Monday" on the stock markets, when stocks fell sharply following the announcement that the Italian economy had contracted by 0.8 percent in the first quarter of 2012. They have come to expect such plunges. The focus of the euro crisis is, after Spain, shifting again to Italy. Italian share prices have plummeted, and yields on Italian government bonds jumped back over the dangerously high 6 percent mark. Stock markets insiders report that hedge funds are investing large sums of money in bets against the country, on the assumption that yields will continue to rise -- and are thereby fueling the downward spiral.

girl gone mad

(20,634 posts)
36. Oama Team Wants Radical New Powers For Multinational Corporations
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 03:33 PM
Jun 2012
WASHINGTON -- A critical document from President Barack Obama's free trade negotiations with eight Pacific nations was leaked online early Wednesday morning, revealing that the administration intends to bestow radical new political powers upon multinational corporations, contradicting prior promises.

The leaked document has been posted on the website of Public Citizen, a long-time critic of the administration's trade objectives. The new leak follows substantial controversy surrounding the secrecy of the talks, in which some members of Congress have complained they are not being given the same access to trade documents that corporate officials receive.

"The outrageous stuff in this leaked text may well be why U.S. trade officials have been so extremely secretive about these past two years of [trade] negotiations," said Lori Wallach, director of Public Citizen's Global Trade Watch in a written statement.

Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) has been so incensed by the lack of access as to introduce legislation requiring further disclosure. House Oversight Committee Chairman Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) has gone so far as to leak a separate document from the talks on his website. Other Senators are considering writing a letter to Ron Kirk, the top trade negotiator under Obama, demanding more disclosure.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/13/obama-trade-document-leak_n_1592593.html
 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
37. WHAT!
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 05:23 PM
Jun 2012

I can think of a number of responses that would change this thread to blue, and then black, and then it would catch fire...

but frankly, it all makes sense. If you are a traitor.

girl gone mad

(20,634 posts)
38. From the second he nominated Kirk, I knew..
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 05:39 PM
Jun 2012

we were getting GATT on steroids because that's exactly the kind of corporatist tool Kirk was as mayor of Dallas. Every deal Kirk negotiated in Dallas was a complete sellout to one billionaire or another.

bread_and_roses

(6,335 posts)
43. Nobel Prize-Winner Elinor Ostrom Dies (power of commons)
Wed Jun 13, 2012, 08:09 PM
Jun 2012
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/06/12-5

Published on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 by Common Dreams
Nobel Prize-Winner Elinor Ostrom Dies at 78
Ostrom's work highlighted the power of "the commons"
- Common Dreams staff

Elinor Ostrom, the only woman to receive the Nobel Prize in economics, died today at the age of 78 from cancer.

Indiana University, where Ostrom had been a faculty member, remarked in a statement on her passing that her Nobel-winning work "showed that ordinary people are capable of creating rules and institutions that allow for the sustainable and equitable management of shared resources. Her work countered the conventional wisdom that only private ownership or top-down regulation could prevent a 'tragedy of the commons,' in which users would inevitably destroy the resources that they held in common."

Response to Tansy_Gold (Original post)

Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Economy»STOCK MARKET WATCH -- Wed...