I think I see the cause of the anger/miscommunication

[Bonobo]

on the rape education issue.

I hope I can explain this clearly.

You see, when you say to women that they should be educated on how to avoid getting raped, you are speaking to an entire group that may one day be potential rape victims. But it may FEEL to them as if you are blaming the victim or placing the onus on the victim.

But when you create a post that says men need to be educated on not raping, you are suggesting/implying that the group being addressed is made of either rapists or potential rapists. No one likes to be accused of being a rapist or a potential rapist. It FEELS like an accusation since it is being addressed to us.

So these are the perceptual problems created around the issue.

Women don't MEAN to say that men are rapists, they are merely expressing a wish that the world (of men) would, in some undifferentiated way, improve.

Men don't mean to sound like they are placing the blame off themselves and onto women wrt rape nor do they mean to say that their egos are more important than the feelings of women who fear rape.

[rrneck]

1. I think it's more ethics delivered as a

custom designed consumer commodity.

[Gore1FL]

2. I have a different conclusion

This is one of those times we need to listen and say "yes dear."

It isn't a problem they are actually asking for solutions to.

Sound crass? I don't think so. They aren't looking for discussion, solutions, or anything else. They want argument or agreement. If you don't agree 100%, then it is 100% argument.

Frankly, it's best to ignore the threads.

[lumberjack_jeff]

6. The irony is that this pandering infantilizing condescension is exactly the desired reaction.

I try to understand this, really I do. But try as I might, I can't consider myself supportive of equality if I pat women on the head and say "yes dear", secure in the knowledge that they don't really mean what they're saying, and that their opinion is of no material consequence.

So... to me the fact that they're wrong and equal means 100% argument.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

7. This was alerted on, by the way.

At Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:44 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

I have a different conclusion
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=5635

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

"It isn't a problem they are actually asking for solutions to. Sounds crass?"

Actually it sounds incredibly sexist and misogynistic to infer that women aren't really concerned about rape, they just want to argue with the men that are being dismissive, belittling and helping to fuel the problem that DU is currently experiencing in regards to the discussion about rape.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:54 PM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: These alerts are way beyond fucking ridiculous now. Oh, and the word is "imply".

--Systematic Chaos
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The alerter is wrong. The poster is referring to specific people who with great joy like lecturing people. He's spot on.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over the top, and totally sexist (although that isn't a violation of the TOS) and we womenfolk understand that.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: This alert is a waste of time. Merely because an opinion is outside the norm, or not what the alerter wants to see does not in and of itself make the opinion disruptive, hurtful, rude, insentitive or over the top.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Gore1FL]

8. Thanks!

It's interesting that the alerter didn't remotely describe what my post said. In fact, the alerter's comments were more alert-worthy than my post.

I find this is more amusing than I probably should.

[ElboRuum]

3. Well, that's just it, and I think that was all that was being questioned.

There were actually two messages in the "famous picture", one which was as stated, one which was an inartful subtext.

There were two ways to take that picture, and the message you got was highly dependent on your gender and whether you were sensitive to receiving that message.

The problem is, and I think what all the hostile posting is about, that the inartful subtext message is one of great familiarity to many posters, not just those who post here. With that history, the results were expected, that being a meltdown of epic proportions.

What's remarkable is that, much like has been discussed when discussing tricky subjects, the key to actually having a decent conversation with hot-button issues is to take care in the words you select. When referring to people and their behaviors or attributes, avoid the construction "X are Y", if you must say something like this, say "some X are Y". Don't stereotype the people you are conversing with. Don't treat the people you are conversing with like an enemy to be beaten or destroyed. Don't come into the conversation with a closed mind or the thought that you are going there to teach, not to learn. And whatever happens, don't expect the person you are conversing with to not try to relate personally to what you are talking about, to participate from their own experience, and to forward their own takes on the topic at hand, despite your wishes that they simply just agree.

Much of the problem in those threads is familiar, a simple throwing out of these principles. Look, I don't care how important a topic is to you, if you can't handle your perceptions and conjectures and ideas being questioned without presuming that someone is attacking you or diminishing the importance of what you are saying, maybe the "echo chamber" is a better place to post those threads.

[Major Nikon]

4. I tend to stay away from the topic for the most part

For one thing, evidently I have to carry every other man on my back if I want to venture into that discussion, even though I have never participated in the behavior I'm getting saddled with. For another, there just isn't a more emotional issue for some so the thought of trying to inject an idea free from emotion just doesn't seem like it would be well received and would certainly be taken completely out of context and then I'd be stuck answering the "Why do you hate women" questions while being labeled a rape apologist.

[lumberjack_jeff]

5. I think you're right.

Unfortunately, the perceived value of being sensitive to the feelings of the other party is a one-way street.

Thus, "What do I care that the poor sniveling babies don't like being called rape-apologists or part of a rape culture? They started it by suggesting that self-defense advise was a good idea! Can you imagine!"

[Warren DeMontague]

10. I think self-defense is ALWAYS a good idea.

Doesn't mean you're letting the criminals off the hook. The world can get ugly, and it's a good idea to be prepared.

[Warren DeMontague]

9. Like I said in the other thread, there's always room to be more empathic.

Given that I have read some wrenching stuff from victims of rape on DU in the past couple days, I'm going to recommit to personally trying to do that on this topic. I'm going to try to be extra sensitive given what some have gone through.

[TreasonousBastard]

11. Good point, but...

remember that we're not talking about "women" here, but a small subset of shrews who seem to think they speak for all women and spend their time ranting and alerting here rather then spending time at the shelters or anything else that might actually help women in peril. Everything is sexist, misogynistic, or whatever new buzzword they find unless it fits into the tight quidelines that change every time we get close.

Notice the same names pop up in these threads, but few of them talk of solutions or actions-- just how wrong we are. Then you got the guys in the threads who chime in with support. I remember guys like this in real life who were trying to get laid pretending to be "male feminists." It never worked-- seems most women don't want men to be their buddies in the cause, they got other women for that, but want us for what they've always wanted us for. (You can fill in the blanks on that)

Notice also women who appear occasionally who do mention their rape experiences, but don't want to talk much about it here because the atmosphere is poisoned. And note that they often say it's poisoned by the shrews as much as it is by "rape apologists." Maybe moreso because they can dismiss the random pigs, but are shocked by women who are supposed to be on their side.

At a certain point empathy is ridiculous. None of us can really understand what happens to a woman when she is sexually attacked. We know it's bad, but every woman handles it differently and we just can't know what's really going on inside her no matter how well we think we know her. Our job isn't empathy, but sympathy and support, and pretty much on her terms.

In more celebratory times, women walk around for most of a year with a baby growing inside them, give birth, and nurse the kid for months, maybe years. Any guys out there want to take a stab at describing that experience? Then don't "explain" rape.

[Gore1FL]

13. This ^^ nt

[Major Nikon]

12. I think a lot of it has to do with how you frame your assertions

"Men need to be educated on not raping" can easily be replaced with "everyone needs more information on what consent really means."

I think the definition of legal consent should be taught in sex education classes in schools and should be mandatory for everyone. Someone might construe that into educating males on "not raping", but I see it more as educating everyone on what the law states. People can make their own decisions from there.

[Gore1FL]

14. When I pointed that out

I was called a misogynist who didn't understand. It lead to my conclusion in post #2 (which was alerted on by someone who lied in the alert -- see a copy of the alert text in post #7.)

[Major Nikon]

15. We get a lot of alerts here

[MadrasT]

16. I like this idea/framing quite a lot. n/t

[Bonobo]

17. I do too and it seems sort of an obvious point to make.

Unless the intent is too strike out in anger and wound, there is no reason to frame it in an incendiary way.

[lumberjack_jeff]

18. I agree... but what sounds great in concept often runs into problems at the practical level.

i.e. "The popularity of books like Fifty Shades of Gray suggests that people need more information about what consent really means"

http://rt.com/usa/news/50-shades-porn-james-589/

[Major Nikon]

19. Unfortunately I don't know of a great way to have that conversation here

I'm just thinking that if we don't approach the subject from an adversarial manner, we might be able to have that conversation without allegations of rape apologia and a mob forming outside your DU house ready to burn it down. It's not as if this subject isn't being written about and studied by prominent feminists and published in feminist produced peer-reviewed scientific publications. The headlines of these studies might be a bit scary to some.

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/psp/54/5/872/

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1540-4560.1992.tb01155.x/abstract

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1471-6402.1985.tb00882.x/abstract

http://pwq.sagepub.com/content/26/4/360.abstract

[lumberjack_jeff]

20. Certainly your approach is better than knee-jerk tribalism.

I'm simply saying that even great ideas often fall short of being a panacea, and even dispassionate discussion of behavior like "token resistance" are going to inspire adversarial discussion... best case scenario is to establish some social conventions about how to contain and direct the conflagration.

[libodem]

21. What consent really means

Is truely the conversation we should all be having. Be a good thesis. Or a book report.