Something making you feel bad isn't the same as Misogyny

[Bonobo]

Misogyny is a cultural attitude of hatred for females because they are female.

This OP should be read as a plea to stop using the word wrong.

We should make a list of things that are NOT misogyny but are actually just things that "make people feel bad" so we can get a bit clearer.

Granted, some of these things might be borderline "sexist" in some cases, but "sexism" is not synonymous with "misogyny" and frankly the phrase "misogyny" is thrown around so completely frivolously that it seems to have lost its meaning.

I'll start:

-Finding performance art in which a woman knits with menstrual-blood stained yarn.
-Watching pornography
-Suggesting that men bear their own unique burden in society by virtue of being male.
-Taking offense at statements like "All men are potential rapists"
-Laughing at people who think that all penis-in-vagina sex is rape.
-Looking at women lustfully
-Opening doors for women
-Warning women not to walk in parking garages alone late at night
-Even denying that "rape culture" exists is NOT misogyny (it just makes you "feel" bad)
-Saying "don't throw like a girl" (again, the whole "feel bad" thing, but not HATRED of women)
-"Objectifying" (whatever that means) -also not the same as hating women so NOT misogyny.

Etc, etc. This list would be huge.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

1. Man A disagreeing with Woman B's opinion is not misogyny

We should probably just start there and work our way out.

[Major Nikon]

5. Not a bad idea

The logical failures aren't hard to spot.

Man A's opinion = Feminist A's opinion

Man A's opinion =/ Feminist B's opinion

Feminist B postulates that Man A = Rape apologist

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

6. Of course, also part of the equation....

Feminist A = Not a real feminist

[leftyohiolib]

2. any time you disagree with one, that's what you are

that's how it seems. women do seem to have to take a lot of crap but saying all men are potential rapists is on par with saying all blacks are lazy welfare recipient or all white people are lazy exploiters of white privledge

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

4. Please be specific

It's a small minority of women here at DU who throw the word around.

[lumberjack_jeff]

3. The observation that a woman is overweight

Is not misogyny.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

7. What I find strange about Jennifer Lawrence is....

....that she once objected to being called fat by comparing herself to another actor and saying he was fat.

[Upton]

10. How did you get the link that way?

I tried and screwed it up..

[lumberjack_jeff]

11. Highlight the text you want to be a hyperlink

Click the link button, paste the url to which you want to link into the dialog box.

[Upton]

12. Like this?

Highlight the text you want to be a hyperlink

Thanks!

[nomorenomore08]

14. But focusing excessively women's appearance, and not men's, *is* rooted in misogyny

or at least sexism - though I don't make a huge distinction between the two.

[lumberjack_jeff]

17. No. Misogyny is hatred of women.

Fixation on someone's weight, age and attire isn't. If it were, every subscriber to People magazine does so because he or she hates women.

[Bonobo]

18. Not making a huge distinction

That's the point of my OP.

[Upton]

9. Pointing out the biological differences between men and women..

Last edited Thu Dec 19, 2013, 01:53 PM - Edit history (1)

is not misogyny...

[nomorenomore08]

15. But exaggerating them for one's own purposes could be. Just saying...

[libodem]

13. I think you are right

The name calling doesn't further the discussion. I would like to see us problem solving together in an assertive fashion, and stop the fault finding and blaming.

[nomorenomore08]

16. I don't find your argument unreasonable. It just seems unnecessary in some ways, to me at least.

Bar maybe the last three, I would agree that the items on your list are not a reflection of misogyny, at least in most cases.

"Denying that rape culture exists" could be - depending how you define the term "rape culture" - simply viewed as denying reality. Most statistics suggest that, in the Western world, the average woman has between a 1 in 6 and 1 in 4 chance of being raped at some point in her life. So I don't see how anyone can deny that rape is a huge, huge problem. And the way mass media - and many, many individuals out there - tend to put the onus on victims/accusers rather than perpetrators, is certainly rooted in misogyny, I would think.

The phrase/idea "throwing like a girl" is just stupid and ignorant, albeit relatively trivial in the grand scheme of gender issues. It's also demonstrably false - otherwise I don't think women's softball would be an Olympic sport.

"Objectification" is, while not an invalid concept, more or less hopelessly subjective IMO. Though I don't think anyone but a sociopath would disagree with the idea that we should treat other people like the sentient beings they are, and not mere "things" for our use.

[In_The_Wind]

19. I don't hate women although I've been accused of that.

ob·jec·ti·fy [uhb-jek-tuh-fahy] Show IPA
verb (used with object), ob·jec·ti·fied, ob·jec·ti·fy·ing.
to present as an object, especially of sight, touch, or other physical sense; make objective; externalize.

I saw a post where I was called a sexist by another DUer. I know that's not true.

What I hate is seeing gender bashing being done by anyone or any group.

[nomorenomore08]

20. And you *are* a woman. That's the ridiculous part.

How can one diagnose a person as "self-hating" just because they disagree about something? Armchair psychoanalysis is an inexact science, to say the least...

[In_The_Wind]

21. Exactly my point.

Men and women both have good and bad sides.

As I was just discussing with another woman my age ... We were part of the bra-burner feminist generation. It wasn't about putting men down but helping women to live up to their true potential.







We believed in equality for everyone.

[nomorenomore08]

22. Which still is, and always was, a worthy ideal. Denigrating men as a gender because they have

relatively more power in society accomplishes nothing.

[In_The_Wind]

23. If ...

You Cannot Move Up by Putting Others Down
No one has ever made himself great by showing how small someone else is. ~ Irvin Himmel

Truly know that, No one can ever rise up by putting others down. We can only rise up by walking up the ladder with the feet moving upwards. If you utilize one foot to push someone down, you're obstructing and blocking Your own time, which you otherwise would have used for climbing up the ladder, on your own merit.

I have felt this way since before I became aware of the behavior of others who could only feel better when making individuals feel diminished.

[westerebus]

24. Several things.

The term "rape culture" does not adequately describe a large part of a horrific problem glossed over in the statistics. 60% of reported rapes happen before the person is 18 years old with the almost half the victims reporting knowing the offender.

What that says to me is we have an "incest culture" on equal footing with the rape of women. This problem involving children with the predominance of female children being the victims isn't being discussed by either side.

First, not all sexual assaults are father or step-father on daughter, but male sibling on female sibling. It expands from there to include other family relations and others known to the family of the victim in a majority of the cases.

For what I have to say, I will keep to the male-female interaction with the male as the instigator or aggressor. One third of these assaults occur before the child is eleven years old.

Given the trauma a young child would endure, is it possible that at a later point in life this victim would chose not to report a rape as an adult?

Which brings me to the other popular statement: "all men are potential rapists". The reality is all humans are potential rapists. As boys are males and as girls are females, what might be correct to say is "Males are more prone to rape than females" and the distinction that only adult men rape is put into a less inflammatory perspective.

Finally, I don't want to leave out male children who are victims of sexual assault. They too knew their assailant. Often, an authority figure known to the family and more often a representative of a religious organization.

There is a lot of work to be done as far as I can tell. Thanks for giving me this opportunity to speak my mind.

[Bonobo]

25. I don't disagree with a single thing you said. nt

[westerebus]

26. Thanks. nt

[nomorenomore08]

27. Human culture seems so steeped in violence and dysfunction, all around.

The problem is so deeply rooted that it appears almost intractable at times.

[westerebus]

29. Could be we need a shift in focus.

The disparity in income and opportunities have something to do with the dysfunction and the resultant violence which rests squarely at the doorstep of both political parties IMO.

They can fund wars for ever it seems. Helping kids? Not so much.

[lumberjack_jeff]

28. CPS cases of sexual abuse of children is on the decline.

This is wonderful news, and it is important to understand the reasons for that trend and to continue it.

One sexual abuse of a child is too many, but fewer than last year is progress.

I'd be more okay with the frame "all men are potential rapists" if it was acknowledged that they are 60% less likely to be than they were 20 years ago.

[westerebus]

30. Thanks for the link.

If I read it correctly that when the overall (sexual abuse) trend declines, it will be seen across indicators that would trend in decline also. The foremost was the decline in the teen birth rate and in welfare assistance. The counter indicator was the over all improvement in the economic situation in general for children of all ages.

I buy that logic, but, given the reversal of the gains made in the ninety's in those areas to were we are today, I would suspect to see an upward trend reappear in the reporting of abuse.

What is net positive is the fact there are hard numbers with which to view improvement. The fact there is a reporting system and the results are tested to a high standard gives me hope that those charged with protecting children are doing what they can given the limits of their resources.

The word Men connotes adult males. Not all abusers/rapists are adults. Secondly, what percentage of rapists would you expect to find among the geriatric portion of the adult male population? I would suspect it to be fairly low.

If a juvenile is charged as a adult does that make him or her an adult? Yet, the trend continues to amplify the prosecution of young offenders as adults.

I'd say: The decline in reported rapes remains contentious. The trend being in decline over the past 20 years still remains too high to be considered less threatening to a large portion of the population regardless of their sex and age. Males in general are less prone to rape than they were in the recent past which although encouraging, rape in any form remains unacceptable.

The short version. Males are more prone to rape than Females.

Thanks for your input.

[nomorenomore08]

31. Seems to follow the general decline in violent crime. So it makes sense, yeah. n/t

[Bonobo]

32. "Tone arguments" also are not misogyny

Most people that act like assholes get called on it at some point.

[Major Nikon]

33. Defamation pretty much fits the definition of assholery

For those who like to conflate gender and race discrimination the false allegation that someone is a misogynist for no other reason than they disagree with you is no different than calling someone a racist for the same reason. Oddly enough the later behavior wouldn't be tolerated here but the former is. Very telling that.

[nomorenomore08]

34. Not to get on your case or anything, but I don't see a great deal wrong with the OP there.

It is a pretty much undeniable fact that men have essentially ruled the world for thousands of years, and that even in relatively enlightened Western societies, something like that doesn't just disappear in a few generations. Whether you choose to call that "patriarchy" or not seems more a matter of semantics.

[Major Nikon]

35. Women vote in greater numbers than men

As such they have more political power than men. The last election proved it. Whether the person they are voting for has a penis or not doesn't negate their political power.

http://www.ropercenter.uconn.edu/elections/how_groups_voted/voted_12.html

[nomorenomore08]

36. True. And yet none of us are immune to cultural biases which affect, among many other things, our

voting choices. It's not so much about an individual or group having tangible power over another, but more the often-unconscious ideas and assumptions we all operate under.

[lumberjack_jeff]

37. So... the 53% voting bloc don't have electoral clout because some of them vote wrong?

The only bigger voting demographic is "white people".

[nomorenomore08]

38. I never said they didn't have clout. Women voters have been crucial to the Dem Party

in many, many elections and even (unfortunately) to the GOP in some. But women, even as voters, are hardly monolithic, and as we all know many of them vote for policies (like abortion restrictions) which ultimately harm women as a whole. Men, to be fair, also very often vote against their own interests, as with the majority of working-class white men voting Repub.

All I'm saying is that equal participation in voting doesn't mean things are equal everywhere. If they were, reproductive rights wouldn't even be in question, and we damn sure wouldn't have anything like that odious new law in Texas.

[Major Nikon]

41. The difference between men and women's attitudes on abortion are in the single digits

The idea that gender is the determining factor is not a good one. There are many other factors which are far more relevant.

[nomorenomore08]

42. I didn't say or imply it was split along gender lines. I'm not monolithically blaming "men" *at all*

for this stuff. What I'm saying is the mere fact that the right to reproductive choice is even seriously questioned by anyone - regardless of their gender - shows that gender equality is not an ingrained idea within this society, or large parts of it anyway.

[Major Nikon]

43. True

But there's also plenty of examples which work in the other direction. You also have a concerted effort by a number of political groups which seek to stack the deck in favor of one gender over another. Whether anyone thinks this is right or wrong still demonstrates that gender parity is not even on the radar screen. Even NOW no longer supports ERA even though their founders considered it the cornerstone of their organization. I can't think of any political organization that makes gender parity their primary objective.

[nomorenomore08]

45. The ERA should probably be resurrected, though who knows if it would pass

concerning the somewhat reactionary nationwide climate RE: gender issues since the turn of the 21st Century - thanks a lot, GOP!

Then again, there have been positive signs of change, like the Ledbetter Act and the VAWA - the latter of which, despite its potential flaws, at least acknowledges that the great majority of those seriously hurt or killed by domestic violence are women. I agree that there may be no such thing as perfect equality - and that such a thing may possibly not even be desirable - but that doesn't mean we can't work to rectify obvious problems, whether they primarily affect women (rape, intimate partner violence) or men (prisoner abuse, higher mortality rate).

[Major Nikon]

46. I don't have issues with women working politically to correct problems which affect women

That's what women's advocacy organizations should be doing. However, I do have a problem with public policy that favors one gender over another. Regardless of whether we have ERA or not, we should not be implementing public policy which flies in the face of it.

[nomorenomore08]

48. I agree. But I don't think something like the VAWA violates the spirit of equality.

Any more than would a bill addressing higher male mortality rates, or abuse of mostly male prisoners. Again, it's simply perceiving a problem and then attempting to deal with it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. Laws *could* be written to address prison sexual abuse or provide contraceptive coverage...

... or reduce IPV in a way that wasn't gender specific. The patriarchal government chooses not to.

[nomorenomore08]

50. Absolutely. Might require a bit of creativity, but I don't see why it couldn't be done.

I do think the best public policy is generally the one that benefits the greatest number of people possible. After all, something like reproductive rights or prisoner rights should apply regardless of one's gender.

[lumberjack_jeff]

47. Why do you think it wouldn't pass?

IIRC, It came within one state of passage in the 70's. Are you suggesting that those were a more enlightened time for equality?

That is obviously a hypothetical question. The reason it wouldn't pass is because all the laws that it would invalidate were written to benefit women, and women's groups no longer support it.

[Major Nikon]

39. And those cultural biases disparately affect both men and women in different ways

So if you can't quantify which gender is more significantly disparately affected (and I don't believe you have even after being asked), then statements like "poor men" are pretty much worth as much as a bucket of warm spit.

Just sayin'

[nomorenomore08]

40. I gave it a shot anyway. See post #38.

[westerebus]

44. I don't think you're blaming (Males) the menz.

We aren't the enemy some would imply we are...

that would be a: IMHO

[Dash87]

51. I hope you don't mind, but I would like to reply to this:

-Finding performance art in which a woman knits with menstrual-blood stained yarn.

- That story creeped me out, but I really don't care what random artists do. It's a free country.

-Watching pornography

- I personally don't have a problem with people watching porn. I don't know enough about it to form an opinion, and if people want to watch it on their own time, it is not my place to jump into their room and tell them to stop. I believe that it's protected under the First Amendment. I also believe that some porn is misogynist, such as porn where women get hurt/abused, or porn that is supposed to humiliate women. I think the audience of these movies are also misogynist.

-Taking offense at statements like "All men are potential rapists"

- This is an often misunderstood statement. I don't believe it saying it that way. The correct statement should be something along the lines of, "If you're a stranger, don't do creepy things around me that could be perceived as threatening, and don't invade my personal space. I don't know you and I don't know what your intentions are. I would like to assume that you have good intentions, and I do owe you politeness, but I also ask that you understand where I'm coming from - I don't know for an absolute fact that you aren't out to hurt me. You could potentially be my rapist or my killer." It's a way of explaining stranger danger, danger from the guy who you're at the party with that you think is a nice guy that respects women, or danger from your best friend's old college roommate who you're on a date with. The tl:dr version is, "You're probably not a bad guy, but I'll never know for sure."

-Laughing at people who think that all penis-in-vagina sex is rape.

- You will be hard-pressed to find somebody who thinks fringe views like this should ever be taken seriously.

-Looking at women lustfully

- As with everything in life, context matters. The problem is gawking. Would you want someone staring at you for 5 minutes without breaking contact? Wouldn't that creep you out a little bit? Nobody wants to be stared at, ever - it's so uncomfortable. Sometimes, in certain situations, it can be intimidating.

-Warning women not to walk in parking garages alone late at night

- I've never heard of someone having a problem with this. It's pointless advice, though - you won't find a women that doesn't understand this already, and sometimes going out into a parking garage at night can't be avoided. The reason why this advice causes anger is because some could see it as taking responsibility away from the rapist and giving it to the victim along the lines of, "Well, you shouldn't have gone into that parking garage at night!" and stuff like this. Women are constantly blamed for things that aren't their fault.

-Even denying that "rape culture" exists is NOT misogyny (it just makes you "feel" bad)

- I disagree.

-Saying "don't throw like a girl" (again, the whole "feel bad" thing, but not HATRED of women)

- While it's not misogynist, it is male shaming. What's the point? Not every man can throw a ball well, or has strength. They shouldn't be made to feel bad about it, and it doesn't make them less of a person.

-"Objectifying" (whatever that means) -also not the same as hating women so NOT misogyny.

- I would actually argue that objectifying is a form of misogyny because it reduces women to objects for male enjoyment. It indirectly surmises that women are not equal to men, and therefore shouldn't be treated like human beings. It ignores womens' humanity, the fact that women are living and breathing people with feelings, and that women deserve to be treated with respect.

Objectifying women makes it easier to do things that hurt them. It lessens the cognitive dissonance of having the urge to hurt another human being, but also understanding that the human being you want to hurt has feelings just like you. Ever notice the language used to objectify women? What does it reduce them to? Body parts? Stereotypes? A "thing" is a more acceptable target to the human mind than another human - this is always true and has been since the beginning of humanity. Propaganda also takes this concept and runs with it effectively.

[nomorenomore08]

52. Fantastic post. I might have a minor issue with a couple points, but basically you've got it covered

there. Good point about the "PIV = rape" thing being, for all intents and purposes, a strawman. Even the dreaded Ms. Dworkin herself never actually said as much, though she may have made insinuations that edged fairly close to it - but her influence on current feminism is arguably rather limited, so no reason to fret about the woman (she's dead anyhow).

Another good point about looking versus staring. There is an important distinction there, and if someone hasn't learned it by early adulthood then I have to assume their interpersonal skills are even poorer than mine - and that's saying something! I also have to wonder how respectful they are of others' boundaries in general.

You also touched on how patronizing (at least implicitly) this "don't get raped" sort of stuff is to women, especially coming from men. Unless a woman is very young - like high school young - then she's probably long since learned what precautions she has to take out there in the world, and weighed the pros and cons and all that jazz.

"Denying rape culture" is kind of a stickier one for me though. I mean, I'm a dude so what do I know, but the disagreement here seems to be partly one of semantics. Whether you choose to call it "patriarchy" or "rape culture" or anything else, to me the really important thing is simply admitting there's a problem. Denying said problem exists in the first place, if anything, would be the misogynistic part. Make sense?

Porno is another subject I tend to agree with you on. I can't claim to be some innocent angel who hasn't seen a million naked ladies in his time, but I too am not only turned off but disturbed by overtly abusive, violent material - of which there seems to be quite a lot nowadays, sadly. Much of it seems to be less about sex per se than about pure humiliation and degradation. And the fact that there's a huge audience for this stuff is all kinds of fucked up - I would agree, generally speaking, that the guys watching it do have a genuine deep-down hatred of women, and that not all of them confine it to their private chambers. Nor do they necessarily confine their hatred to only women, for that matter.

Objectification, I suppose, is mostly covered by what I wrote above. Having sex with, or wanting to have sex with someone, doesn't by itself reduce them to an object, but conflating sex and violence ("I'm gonna kill that p**sy tonight!&quot does tend to. I guess in part it's the idea of doing something to someone rather than withthem, if that makes sense.

So yeah, this was long, but your post was too, so I didn't think you'd mind. I guess I also had quite a few ideas to get off my chest.

[Major Nikon]

53. All are fair points

- I personally don't have a problem with people watching porn. I don't know enough about it to form an opinion, and if people want to watch it on their own time, it is not my place to jump into their room and tell them to stop. I believe that it's protected under the First Amendment. I also believe that some porn is misogynist, such as porn where women get hurt/abused, or porn that is supposed to humiliate women. I think the audience of these movies are also misogynist.

Flip the genders on this. Are women who watch BDSM porn where men consent to being hurt misandrists? For some, pain enhances pleasure both on the giving and receiving end. That doesn't mean they harbor hate for the opposite gender.

- This is an often misunderstood statement. I don't believe it saying it that way. The correct statement should be something along the lines of, "If you're a stranger, don't do creepy things around me that could be perceived as threatening, and don't invade my personal space. I don't know you and I don't know what your intentions are. I would like to assume that you have good intentions, and I do owe you politeness, but I also ask that you understand where I'm coming from - I don't know for an absolute fact that you aren't out to hurt me. You could potentially be my rapist or my killer." It's a way of explaining stranger danger, danger from the guy who you're at the party with that you think is a nice guy that respects women, or danger from your best friend's old college roommate who you're on a date with. The tl:dr version is, "You're probably not a bad guy, but I'll never know for sure."

It's certainly understandable that some people feel this way. Promoting the idea that people should feel this way is another matter.

- You will be hard-pressed to find somebody who thinks fringe views like this should ever be taken seriously.

It's not as uncommon as you might think. Many feminists believe that coitus(sex) is coercive and harmful to women under the patriarchy. While the statement that "all sex is rape" takes this idea to the extreme, it's not that far out of line with what many believe. You are correct in that they shouldn't be taken seriously, but that's the whole point of the statement.

- As with everything in life, context matters. The problem is gawking. Would you want someone staring at you for 5 minutes without breaking contact? Wouldn't that creep you out a little bit? Nobody wants to be stared at, ever - it's so uncomfortable. Sometimes, in certain situations, it can be intimidating.

Even taken to that extreme it's hard to imagine how this is an example of misogyny.

- I've never heard of someone having a problem with this. It's pointless advice, though - you won't find a women that doesn't understand this already, and sometimes going out into a parking garage at night can't be avoided. The reason why this advice causes anger is because some could see it as taking responsibility away from the rapist and giving it to the victim along the lines of, "Well, you shouldn't have gone into that parking garage at night!" and stuff like this. Women are constantly blamed for things that aren't their fault.

You just explained why some have a problem with this. RAINN (the largest and most respected anti-sexual assault advocacy organization on the planet) gives similar advice. Regardless of what anyone's opinion of it is, it's not an example of misogyny. Victim blaming is a separate issue.

-Even denying that "rape culture" exists is NOT misogyny (it just makes you "feel" bad)


- I disagree.

With no clear definition of what "rape culture" even means, people can disagree with the definition without being misogynists. Some feminists believe porn is part of rape culture, which even you admit is harmless. For some this makes you a misogynist.

- I would actually argue that objectifying is a form of misogyny because it reduces women to objects for male enjoyment. It indirectly surmises that women are not equal to men, and therefore shouldn't be treated like human beings. It ignores womens' humanity, the fact that women are living and breathing people with feelings, and that women deserve to be treated with respect.

Sexuality is part of humanity. Even within the feminist community there's no shortage of those who reject objectification theory. Disagreement over this is not misogyny.

Objectifying women makes it easier to do things that hurt them. It lessens the cognitive dissonance of having the urge to hurt another human being, but also understanding that the human being you want to hurt has feelings just like you. Ever notice the language used to objectify women? What does it reduce them to? Body parts? Stereotypes? A "thing" is a more acceptable target to the human mind than another human - this is always true and has been since the beginning of humanity. Propaganda also takes this concept and runs with it effectively.

Some feminists have been trying unsuccessfully for decades to link objectification cause to violent effect. When what they call objectification is indisputably up exponentially, and violence against women is down exponentially, the rational basis for their argument is at an extreme disadvantage and remember this concept has never been proven in the first place. Rejecting this idea is not misogyny.

[Bonobo]

54. This seems like a timely thread.

The attempt to bend the definition of misogyny is interesting.

The MEANING (and yes, meanings are important) is "hatred of women".

Shifting direction to say that "misogynists often say this or that" and then saying therefore that people that say "this or that" are misogynists is not only faulty logic, but faulty logic of a rather sophomoric quality.

It is weak thinking and must be dismissed.

Words mean things and they don't mean what they don't mean.

[TreasonousBastard]

55. Would that everyone agree with that...

but, once again, I ran into the wall.