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Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
Thu Dec 12, 2013, 02:57 AM Dec 2013

Why I speak out against the Rad Fem movement.

**For the record, this OP does not accuse ANYONE at DU of being transphobic. It is a general observation about a movement that identifies as the "Radical Feminist" movement and an attempt to shine a spotlight on just what that movement really is.
-----------------------------------------------
First you may ask, why is this a Men's Issue? A good question and one that I have asked myself. My answer is essentially that this movement is SO toxic, so viciously anti-male that they must be understood for what they are and that their vicious hate rhetoric must be exposed as the divisive garbage that it is.

Of course they want their hate speech protected by hiding behind a reasonable and laudable movement such as Feminism in general. But in all honesty, who hare does NOT support the idea of equality for all women? Certainly no one here that I know. So what I see is a movement of extreme hate hiding beneath the mantle of Feminism in order to disseminated safely a very particular brand of poisonous rhetoric that is actually designed to create flames where there are none -much like the pyromaniacal firefighter who lights fires so that he/she can put them out and claim to be a "hero".

How anti-male are they?

Well, they are so anti-male that having a person that considers themselves to be transgender (MtF) is viewed with suspicion and distrust -essentially the implication being that they are perverted men who just want to invade women's sacred space. This position should be unacceptable to anyone that considers themselves to be a Liberal or Progressive. In all other cases, liberals would agree that this behavior is hate speech. To not accept people for who they are -whether in terms of gender, sexual preference or religion is no different than those that say that gays are not really gay, they need to be "cured", etc. In fact, on closer examination the "detransitioning" that many rad fems push at transgender people is rather uncomfortably close to the "homosexual cure".

If Feminism is the proposition that all people should be equal under the law, then surely it must be accepted that her positions re transgender people are an extreme violation of that basic tenet.

-------------------------------------
Political attempts have been made to separate out the transphobic element that they are TERFs, not merely Radical Feminists, but Radical Feminism cannot pretend that the core of their movement is not rotten with transphobia unless they deal honestly with the issue of Cathy Brennan.

Cathy Brennan is at the very heart of the movement called radical feminism. In the video below, she herself denies the term TERF (trans-exclusionary radical feminist), saying that it is all actually just "radical feminism".
http://vimeo.com/78066775

Here is a petition calling for her group, Gender Identity Watch, to be considered a Hate Group.

http://www.change.org/petitions/southern-poverty-law-center-monitor-gender-identity-watch-as-a-hate-group-2

As a feminist organization, Secular Woman promotes gender equality. We stand against and combat sexism, hate, intolerance, and misogyny.

Transgender women are women.

Cisgender women are women.

We do not, in any way, view the existence of transgender women, genderqueer individuals or transgender men as a threat to the safety of women, female identity, or the goals of feminism.

As intersectional feminists we acknowledge the privilege that cisgender people experience. We aim to dismantle the axis of oppression that this represents.

Unfortunately, not all who claim the label “feminist” agree with us. They do not represent us and we reject their actions and views as unethical and devoid of reason.

We stand in opposition.

Members of our community have been targeted by trans-exclusionary radical feminists (TERFs). Personal information such as former names, current legal names, and photographs have been compiled and displayed on the website “Name the Problem”. Several of the entries are self-attributed to “Pegasus” ("PegasusBug" is a pseudonym of Cathy Brennan, the head of Gender Identity Watch). This information was presented alongside reports describing rapists and batterers of women.


She does not consider transgender people to be the gender they themselves identify as, reserving that right only for CIS people.

She has written a letter to the UN arguing strenuously against legal protections for transgender people and just does not seem to understand the issue of gender identity.

Until her hate speech is denounced, radical feminism will always be a Hate Movement.

http://www.bustle.com/articles/7277-cathy-brennan-speaks-to-bustle-about-her-stance-on-transgender-people

Most recently, Brennan has been attracting attention for two reasons. The first is a letter she sent to the doctor of trans activist Emily Horsman in September 2013. After alleging that Horsman was harassing her and other women online, Brennan wrote that she believed the doctor had “a professional obligation to know about his patient’s mental health.”

The second has to do with a story about a transgender student in Colorado allegedly harassing other girls in the high-school locker room. A conservative group called The Pacific Justice Institute sent a letter to the school demanding something be done. Brennan posted the letter to her blog — along with the student’s name. The story was later debunked by the school’s superintendent, who said no harassment took place and the story was perpetuated by upset parents.

The question of whether transgender women — that is, individuals born biologically male who gender identify as female — should be allowed in female-only spaces has been a contentious one for years. And over these years, Brennan has been at the forefront of the discussion. In 2011, Brennan and fellow activist Elizabeth Hungerford wrote a letter to the United Nations in opposition to certain laws prohibiting discrimination based on gender identity and gender expression.

“The proliferation of legislation designed to protect ‘gender identity’ and ‘gender expression’ undermines legal protections for females vis-a-vis sex segregated spaces, such as female-only clubs, public restrooms, public showers, and other spaces designated as ‘female only.’ Females require sex-segregated facilities for number of reasons, chief among them the documented frequency of male sexual violence against females and the uniquely female consequence of unwanted impregnation resulting from this relatively common form of violence.”
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Why I speak out against the Rad Fem movement. (Original Post) Bonobo Dec 2013 OP
The SPLC really does need to come around on this issue Major Nikon Dec 2013 #1
Not sure how much good it would do, but I don't disagree with the intent. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #14
Ever hear of Sheila Jeffreys? Major Nikon Dec 2013 #16
I guess it would be too optimistic to consider them irrelevant. People are attracted to stupid ideas nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #17
The MRA haters are generally nose pickers transmitting from mommie's basement Major Nikon Dec 2013 #18
I think you may be underestimating their influence on things, to be honest. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #19
I'd be interested to know what their actual accomplishments are Major Nikon Dec 2013 #20
I didn't mean "behind the curtain pulling the levers" but more of a subtle cultural influence. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #21
I think you're worried about cockroaches while ignoring the elephant shitting on the rug Major Nikon Dec 2013 #22
Organized religion - Christianity in the case of the West - has certainly had a lot to do nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #23
Bob's your uncle Major Nikon Dec 2013 #24
Robert jensen IS a professor, at a major university (UTA) Doctor_J Dec 2013 #25
I've had the displeasure of seeing Brennan in action firsthand LadyHawkAZ Dec 2013 #2
A logical extension, perhaps, of seeing all men as sexual predators? nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #15
I wouldn't describe it as "logical"... nt sibelian Dec 2013 #26
Equality for all (except for those on this list)! HappyMe Dec 2013 #3
I'm just trying to imagine what would happen if someone wrote.... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2013 #4
Are you referring to "Separatist Feminists"? Bonobo Dec 2013 #5
Yeah.... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2013 #6
And no, it has nothing do to with "NOT HAVING TEH SEX WITH TEH MENZ" ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2013 #12
Thanks for posting this. In_The_Wind Dec 2013 #7
Cathy Brennan is a bigoted nut job. Dash87 Dec 2013 #8
Aside from the hatred HappyMe Dec 2013 #9
Does Brennan hate MtF transgender people because they are trans or because they are physically male? lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #10
Ever since I knew libodem Dec 2013 #11
If we could stick to the subject of equality, there would BE no disagreements. Bonobo Dec 2013 #13
Kickety kick kick kick.... for relevance... opiate69 Jul 2014 #27
kickin' it! troublesome_mind Jul 2014 #28

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
1. The SPLC really does need to come around on this issue
Thu Dec 12, 2013, 03:05 AM
Dec 2013

There are many within the separatist feminism movement (a subset of the rad fem movement) which are no-shit haters of the first order to anyone born with a penis. Why the SPLC continues to ignore this is a real head scratcher.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
14. Not sure how much good it would do, but I don't disagree with the intent.
Fri Dec 13, 2013, 09:03 PM
Dec 2013

Just like the most extreme MRA types, the most extreme separatist feminists see the other gender as purely evil. I can't see that they have much power or influence over anything - outside of perhaps a few private-school women's studies programs - but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be seen for what they are.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
16. Ever hear of Sheila Jeffreys?
Fri Dec 13, 2013, 09:15 PM
Dec 2013

Her writings are often cited by policy makers in Europe and other countries. She is just one example. If you think these people are irrelevant, you haven't been looking. Their hate and pseudo-intellectualism is veiled by the women's studies departments of a number of universities public and private which grants them credibility at least with those who either don't look very hard or share those views.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
17. I guess it would be too optimistic to consider them irrelevant. People are attracted to stupid ideas
Fri Dec 13, 2013, 09:46 PM
Dec 2013

of all kinds. I actually am somewhat familiar with Jeffreys, if I'm not mistaken she's one of the radfems who has a hate-on for the transgender, right? Just shows that the traditional left/right axis doesn't apply to some people, I guess - or that it's possible to go so far left that you wind up on the right.

Robert Jensen, to cite another example - though I question the size of his actual influence - is a self-proclaimed radical feminist who happens to be male. Aside from the obvious tension and conflict implied by that, I have no idea where he stands on the transphobia issue. But whenever I read something by him, it makes me want to sit him down and go, "Dude, it's okay! You don't have to try so hard."

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
18. The MRA haters are generally nose pickers transmitting from mommie's basement
Fri Dec 13, 2013, 09:54 PM
Dec 2013

They are only relevant within small circles of other nose pickers because the wonder of the interwebs means anyone with spare lunch money can put up a URL. They aren't professors at universities lecturing to young minds and writing papers and books that other people, including policy makers, are reading and being influenced by.

Big difference.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
19. I think you may be underestimating their influence on things, to be honest.
Fri Dec 13, 2013, 10:24 PM
Dec 2013

In a way the influence doesn't have to be as obvious, since "MRA-ism" or whatever you want to call it is largely about maintaining, or rolling back, the status quo. Really, I think the most egregious MRA dudes - though they are pretty much sociopaths, and sociopaths are always dangerous on some level - are as much of a distraction as anything else, because the real problem is the ingrained cultural attitudes that these guys embody at the extreme.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
20. I'd be interested to know what their actual accomplishments are
Fri Dec 13, 2013, 10:51 PM
Dec 2013

Because few of the haters even have a real name that anyone knows and none that I know of are authoring any papers that any policy makers are referencing. The idea that these people are somehow behind the curtain pulling the levers seems pretty remote. There are some men's rights groups who are getting laws changed, but they are not on the SPLC list and from what I've seen the laws they are getting changed are ones that are biased against men which means they are actually moving towards a position of parity and not rolling anything back.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
21. I didn't mean "behind the curtain pulling the levers" but more of a subtle cultural influence.
Fri Dec 13, 2013, 11:02 PM
Dec 2013

I can't tangibly prove this, of course. I'll admit that much upfront. But as I said, I see the MRA thing as largely being about maintaining (or regaining) men's traditional dominance over women.

This is not to say, of course, that the extreme radfems don't pose a problem as well. And I certainly want little if anything to do with the Sheila Jeffreyses of the world.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
22. I think you're worried about cockroaches while ignoring the elephant shitting on the rug
Fri Dec 13, 2013, 11:27 PM
Dec 2013

Because there are other groups which most certainly are larger, much better organized, and operate quite overtly. They also have a couple of thousand years more practice, a very long list of sordid accomplishments, and far more influence.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
23. Organized religion - Christianity in the case of the West - has certainly had a lot to do
Fri Dec 13, 2013, 11:30 PM
Dec 2013

with the social repression of human beings, women included. I assume that's what you meant by "a couple thousand years more practice." Which is why I said that the MRA's are ultimately sort of a distraction, because if anything they're more a symptom of the problem.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
25. Robert jensen IS a professor, at a major university (UTA)
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 09:19 AM
Dec 2013

I think gender studies classes generally have an audience that comes in with a particular mindset anyway though.

LadyHawkAZ

(6,199 posts)
2. I've had the displeasure of seeing Brennan in action firsthand
Thu Dec 12, 2013, 04:24 AM
Dec 2013

I'm in at a place she turns up in sometimes (it's a feminist group that I got into years ago, before it flipped to trans- and hetero- hating, not gonna say where lest I wind up with the boot). She is really horrible. Absolutely loathes trans women, not just dislikes but hates with a passion. She's absolutely convinced herself that all trans women are just men dressing like women so they can get into "women's spaces" and rape us all.

Really, really looney tunes. Sick stuff.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
3. Equality for all (except for those on this list)!
Thu Dec 12, 2013, 09:38 AM
Dec 2013

It's incredibly hateful, to the point of almost being unbelievable. How the hell do thinking people buy into this garbage?

Transgendered people are (to my thinking) among the most vulnerable. This throws gasoline on the fire.

You are who you are, and sometimes you have to make the outside match the inside. Gender Identity Watch? Honestly, the crazy, spittle flecked anger is upsetting.

ProudToBeBlueInRhody

(16,399 posts)
4. I'm just trying to imagine what would happen if someone wrote....
Thu Dec 12, 2013, 10:32 AM
Dec 2013

...."I choose to limit my contact with black people" here.

What would you think of someone who said that? Do you think they'd last long?

ProudToBeBlueInRhody

(16,399 posts)
6. Yeah....
Thu Dec 12, 2013, 10:40 AM
Dec 2013

....I mean, in general, liberals should not be so frightened of people, unless it's part of an overarching fear of all human interaction.

ProudToBeBlueInRhody

(16,399 posts)
12. And no, it has nothing do to with "NOT HAVING TEH SEX WITH TEH MENZ"
Thu Dec 12, 2013, 08:50 PM
Dec 2013

Not surprising that certain minds would roll right into that gutter, seeing as how they view the species....

Dash87

(3,220 posts)
8. Cathy Brennan is a bigoted nut job.
Thu Dec 12, 2013, 12:05 PM
Dec 2013

She claims that allowing trans women into women's locker rooms will cause trans women to rape and impregnate cis-gendered women. I'm not even kidding.

She also tried to stoke the flames of a moral panic about a trans girl harassing the other girls in a High School women's locker room, and claimed that this is an example of why putting trans women in the bathroom with cis-women is dangerous. Guess what? This is shocking (not), but the story was totally made up.

She's bigoted and transphobic; not much different from the far-right fundies. The hate is all the same.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
9. Aside from the hatred
Thu Dec 12, 2013, 12:23 PM
Dec 2013

it's also amazingly paranoid.

I can't imagine living life with all of that fear and hate. Poison for both the mind and body.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
10. Does Brennan hate MtF transgender people because they are trans or because they are physically male?
Thu Dec 12, 2013, 12:34 PM
Dec 2013

It seems apparent to me that the latter is true.

Misandry (which I just added to my google chrome dictionary - because it wasn't there) is as corrosive as transgender hate, for no other reason than trans women are still going to get the hate regardless. Being transsexual won't mitigate the distrust you get by having an X chromosome.

I get that this is a controversial view, but I think it's worthwhile to examine why it's controversial. Both men and women are highly invested in the idea that attacking men in this way is noble/funny/acceptable.

In radical feminist theology, men are apparently a pestilence from which polite society must be protected. Women nod in approval, men chuckle because they think they get "the joke".

libodem

(19,288 posts)
11. Ever since I knew
Thu Dec 12, 2013, 12:54 PM
Dec 2013

What trangender meant, I have felt like these men were my sisters. I always hated the idea of any gay guy being beaten up by a bunch of mean assholes because it seemed the same as jumping a women.

I dislike 'feminism' being highjacked by mean girls. I don't like the manhaters' club.

Back in the day we wanted to be more like men, not disparaging of the qualities that make all humans more lovable and capable.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
13. If we could stick to the subject of equality, there would BE no disagreements.
Thu Dec 12, 2013, 10:44 PM
Dec 2013

That's the thing.

What more really needs to be said?

I support equal rights for everyone. All the fire-starting is a TACTIC, it is not an ideology.

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