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joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 03:47 AM Sep 2012

Extreme World: Venezuela (video showing the depravity that is Venezuelan violence):

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xtjiwd_extreme-world-venezuela_news

No words. Seriously. I am simply unable to form a coherent reply to how horrific this society is. I. Cannot. Explain. It.

Just watch.

I denounce any Chavista or pro-Chavez "leftist" that tries to defend this bullshit. It is unacceptable. It is totally horrific.

BTW. DEATH is shown in this video. So the queasy may not want to watch.
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Peace Patriot

(24,010 posts)
1. You want to trade depravities? We've got some here...
Tue Sep 18, 2012, 11:32 AM
Sep 2012

...in our corporatized prison system, in our drug gangs, in the living conditions of a huge homeless population and in our political system.

And we've inflicted horrors on others as well--for instance, in Iraq (a hundred thousand innocent people slaughtered in the first weeks of "shock and awe" bombing alone), and Afghanistan, and, of course, with U.S. war profiteers gun running and supplying weapons systems all over the world, many other places.

They've got some in Colombia, Honduras, Mexico, Guatemala, with the huge number of murders in Colombia and Honduras specifically targeting trade unionists, teachers, human rights workers, community activists and other advocates of the poor. The Colombian military is the recipient of $7 BILLION in U.S. military aid and is responsible for half the murders of trade unionists in Colombia, according to Amnesty International. (The other half have been committed by the Colombian military's closely tied rightwing paramilitary death squads, also according to AI.) In Honduras, atrocities by rightwing death squads include the beheading of one leftist protest leader and leaving his body in the road for all to see and be afraid, and the shooting of a teacher, who had also led protests, in front of his students; also, the murders of many journalists; and the recent DEA shooting of innocent Indigenous tribespeople ('suspected drug traffickers') in a remote Honduran jungle area, and many other murders, mostly by rightwing death squads.

Targeted, as opposed to random murder or drug cartel or drug gang murder, or kidnapping gang murder. Depraved! --and with the specific purpose of preparing the country for transglobal corporate rip off.

They've got some criminal depravity in India, in Russia, in Libya--now that the West has destabilized that country--in many of the ripped off countries of Africa, in the Mariana Islands, where U.S. corporate clothing retailers import young girls from Asia and indenture them and abuse them in clothing sweatshops, and, indeed, they've got some depraved criminal activity in countries and regions throughout the world.

Why focus on Venezuela and show ONLY THAT--gun violence, a kidnapping gang, and a prison taken over by the prisoners--at election time in Venezuela?

I watched this entire "Extreme World" video, and I think it has an agenda, which is to blame the gun violence and police corruption in Venezuela on Chavez--as if Chavez approves of it.

I was willing enough to accept the truth of the report until the host introduced the person he had chosen to defend the Chavez government--"the brother of Carlos the Jackal." I mean, come on. He couldn't find somebody, in all of Venezuela, to discuss these problems from the government's perspective who is not the relative of a notorious criminal?

That is absurd.

Yes, there are problems in Venezuela, and you could focus on problems illustrating criminal depravity in almost any country in the world, including this one, which has a number of forms of criminal depravity running rampant in Washington DC (and I don't mean drug gangs).

This report is not aimed at solving the problems that it is focusing upon--but rather at overwhelming the viewer with as much negative footage as "Extreme World" could cram into one long report, to the exclusion of everything else--and then, in answer to this footage, interviewing "the brother of Carlos the Jackal" in defense of the government!

It is also notable that this report fails to mention any of the Chavez government initiatives aimed at reducing gun violence and police corruption and improving prisons. Maybe they can be criticized--as not enough, as ineffective, etc.--but why aren't they even mentioned? Not one word. Arguably, a report such as this shouldn't be expected to propose solutions to the problems that it depicts--but when it ignores government initiatives aimed specifically at these problems, and doesn't even allude to them, something is not right.

The Chavez government, for instance, has created a national police academy to instill police professionalism and respect for human rights, and to reduce and eliminate police corruption. Why no mention of this? They also have a prison reform program. Not one word about it. They also, recently, I have been informed, have a new policy aimed at restricting gun ownership. (Our 2nd Amendment nutballs must be having apoplexy about that! 'Dictator' Chavez is rounding up peoples' guns!)

I am therefore suspicious of both the footage and the narrative. For instance, what has the government done to re-take the prison where conditions are so awful? What is the plan? What negotiations are going on? I don't believe that the government is just sitting idly by and permitting this status quo (a prisoner-run prison where conditions are so bad). Why doesn't "Extreme World" interview the national guard or prison authorities or a Chavez government official, as to this situation? And why no time frame? (Was this a temporary condition? Is it still going on? No information.)

It is perhaps forgivable in a report that is all about crime that they don't mention that Venezuela was recently designated "THE most equal country in Latin America" on income distribution, by the UN Commission on Latin America and the Caribbean, and has met all of its Millennium Goals on poverty reduction, education and other social improvements. It is also perhaps forgivable that they don't mention the brutal fight against the Chavez government, by the U.S. and Exxon Mobil, et al, to deny oil profits to the people of Venezuela--including a coup d'etat attempt, an oil bosses' lockout, a USAID-funded recall election and numerous other interferences and punishments (which included Exxon Mobil's effort to abscond with Venezuela's international cash reserves).

But the report asks the question, how can the government tolerate the crime and poverty that the report depicts, with so much oil money around? It then fails to mention that the Chavez government has had to fight every step of the way, against truly vicious and powerful opposition, to regain the Venezuelan peoples' control of their oil?

If a report raises a question--why there is still poverty, crime and bad prisons in Venezuela, with all that oil money around?--it is NOT forgivable for them to, then, leave out how difficult it was, and how long it took, just to get control of the oil profits, let alone to begin converting those profits into social programs that benefit Venezuelans.

The report in fact ridicules these (in fact) highly successful efforts by using the phrase "socialist utopia" to describe what the Chavez government wants to achieve, and to contrast that with way overloaded footage of misery, crime and despair.

There are REASONS why Venezuelans rate their own country fifth in the world on their own well-being and future prospects (in the Chilean institute poll that measures such things). OBVIOUSLY, most Venezuelans do NOT live in misery, crime and despair. OBVIOUSLY--on the basis of numerous reports--most Venezuelans have experienced increased incomes, increased educational opportunity, increased access to health care, and increased human and civil rights (with very high rates of public participation) not to mention very high rates of economic growth. NO counterpoint is provided in this report--other than that of "Carlos the Jackal"'s brother--to give any perspective on, a) the problems that the Chavez government has been faced with, and b) their--in many respects--successful efforts to solve them.

If you are going to raise a question, in a report, then you really need to be fair in answering it. This report doesn't make any effort to be fair. The misery they show you is Chavez's fault. That's the agenda of this report.

The report runs a few government statements AS TEXT in small print, and so fast I couldn't read them, at the end of the report (easily mistaken for "credits"--typically run by your eye very fast). This is not fairness. It is the opposite of fairness.

You have to watch the whole report to grasp what it really is--an election-time "hit piece" against the Chavez government. I did NOT have that opinion at the beginning of the report. I was interested in, and moved by, the situations that the report was covering. I wanted to know more. Also, the rightwing in Venezuela, the USAID/CIA/State Department and the Corporate Press--and our rightwing DUers--are forever descrying crime in Venezuela, and I really did want to know more about it. But now I feel that I have been manipulated and lied to. This is NOT an objective report--not even close. It is anti-Chavez propaganda.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
2. "Why focus on Venezuela"? Because people like you DEFLECT from the violence in Venezuela.
Tue Sep 18, 2012, 06:01 PM
Sep 2012

To you it is NOT A CONCERN. Indeed, in your long screed you write, "Venezuelans rate their own country fifth in the world on their own well-being." Oh? Good for those faux reports. The ACTUAL VIOLENCE tells another story.

Earlier you wrote, "It then fails to mention that the Chavez government has had to fight every step of the way, against truly vicious and powerful opposition, to regain the Venezuelan peoples' control of their oil?"

Uh, no, Carlos the Jackal's BROTHER (laugh about that one) was allowed to explain his "opposition conspiracy" and then the opposition wasn't even ALLOWED to explain ITS SIDE. Talk about an impartial report!

Fact is GROSS MISMANAGEMENT (and cronyism) is the reason that PDVSA and the government has allowed the country to fall into an utter state of despotism. Only on these forums would human rights violations in prisons and massive levels of murder and crime be deflected.

Then you say, ironically, "If you are going to raise a question, in a report, then you really need to be fair in answering it." What wasn't the OPPOSITION given a chance to talk if you're so "concerned" about Kemp's portrayal of the government? You're not really concerned, you're just appalled by Ross Kemp's ACCURATE analysis that:

"Looking back I'm shocked at the state that this country is in. For a socialist country with so much wealth there is still so much inequality here."


THAT'S what "bothers" you about this report. That Ross Kemp dared to share his own opinion from his own EXPERIENCES of the ABJECT POVERTY that still remains in Venezuela. 9 MILLION Venezuelans live on $5 A DAY. This all the while the Venezuelan government IMPORTS US REFINED FUEL to power its power plants. It is shameful. It is a disgrace.

If Chavez wins because he controls the airwaves and has a Big Brother style cadena every day, day in, day out, then the Venezuelan people will have to suffer a while longer until Chavez dies and then Capriles can take his place in the new elections.

Peace Patriot

(24,010 posts)
3. "Extreme World" didn't need to interview the RW. The entire report is an opposition campaign ad.
Tue Sep 18, 2012, 08:58 PM
Sep 2012

In your opinion, the UN Economic Commission on Latin America and the Caribbean is wrong, and the Gallup Well-Being poll and other such polls are wrong, and the Millennium reports are wrong, and all the economic stats are wrong, and most Venezuelans are wrong, in their various positive assessments of the Chavez government?

AND, in your opinion, the 2002 coup d'etat, the 2003 oil bosses' strike, the 2004 USAID-funded recall election, Exxon Mobil's lawsuit trying to hijack Venezuela's international cash reserves, and all the punishments, propaganda and interference of the U.S. and its transglobal corporate rulers--not to mention the Bush/Uribe warmongering over the last decade--are just minor bumps on the road that any government should be able to shrug off, and not have to spend large amounts of time and energy dealing with, just to keep the country and its democracy in working order, let alone initiate "New Deal"-type changes?

joshcryer, your views are so extreme that you and "Extreme World" are a good match-up.

Here are some reliable facts about Venezuelans and their perception of their own country:

-----

Venezuela is the Fifth Happiest Country in the World

By AVN / PRESS OFFICE – VENEZUELAN EMBASSY TO THE U.S. April 3, 2012

Last Friday, the Washington Post highlighted a global happiness survey released last year by the polling firm Gallup, which found that Venezuela is the fifth happiest country in the world. According to the poll, 64 percent of Venezuelan respondents said their well-being was thriving.

The poll measured how people in 124 countries rated their lives at the current time and their expectations for the next five years.

Topping the list were Denmark (72 percent), Sweden (69 percent), Canada (69 percent), and Australia (65 percent). Finland is tied with Venezuela, sharing the fifth spot.

Venezuela is the Latin American country with the highest wellbeing, followed by Panama (11), Costa Rica (14), Brazil (15) and Mexico (19).

The classifications according to which respondents rated their wellbeing included “thriving,” “struggling,” or “suffering.” People who considered themselves to be thriving rated their lives a 7 or higher on a scale from 0 to 10.

According to the Post, the poll showed that the respondents with highest wellbeing also reported fewer health problems, less stress and sadness, and more happiness, respect and enjoyment.

Out of the 124 countries polled in 2010, the majority of residents in only 19 countries (mostly in Europe and the Americas) rated their lives as “thriving.”

An article published on the website of Gallup states that the list “is largely dominated by more developed and wealthier nations, as expected given the links between wellbeing and GDP.”

Nevertheless, it states: “Global wellbeing improved little between 2009 and 2010, remaining relatively steady when Gallup groups all these countries into four major global regions: Asia, Africa, the Americas, and Europe.”

Results have 95 percent confidence rate with a maximum margin of error of ±1.7 to ±5.7 percentage points.

http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/6906

This work is licensed under a Attribution Non-commercial No Derivatives Creative Commons license
(my emphasis).

---

Another report on this Gallup poll (discusses other polls and the election; very pro-Chavez and anti-Capriles):

Chavez Riding High in Polls

Jul 28, 2012 – No wonder a Columbia University Earth Institute study called Venezuela South America's happiest country. A 2011 Gallup poll ranked it fifth...
http://www.greanvillepost.com/2012/07/28/chavez-riding-high-in-polls/



----------------------------------------------------

Poll Finds 82% of Venezuelans are “Very Happy” or “Happy”

By TAMARA PEARSON – VENEZUELANALYSIS.COM March 1, 2011

Mérida, March 1st 2011 (Venezuelanalysis.com) 82% of Venezuelans say they are “happy”, according to the latest polls by Social Investigation Group XXI (GIS). The study, which also examined Venezuelans’ values in relation to gender difference, geographic mobility, community and participation, work, and religion aimed to examine the relationships between politics, culture, and social values in Venezuela.

Personal Satisfaction and Social Perception of Happiness

According to the GIS study, titled, “Tastes and Desires of the Venezuelan Population: A Study of the Sociology of Preferences”, on a scale of 1 to 10, where 10 is very happy, 82% of respondents said they were very happy or happy with an answer of 7 to 10. 13% responded with 5-6, and 4% between 4 and 1.

Responding to the question, “We have all done things in our lives that make us feel proud, thinking about the things that you have done throughout your life, which things make you especially proud?”, 44% responded “my children”, 15% “academic achievement” and 11% “other”.

In terms of what would make respondents feel proud of their children, if they have them or hypothetically, 44% said “academic success”, 25% said “that they are a good person who makes others happy”, and only 7% said “economic success”.

After “other aspects of life”, lack of material well being, and unemployment ranked the highest (with 17% and 14% respectively) for people’s perception of what makes other people most unhappy. After that were “insecurity”, “family problems”, and “physical illness” at 9%, 8%, and 7%, respectively.


(SNIP - more details of this poll re attitudes of Venezuelans.)

GIS is widely regarded as allied to the Chavez government. Its results tend to slightly favour the Chavez government, but are never very inflated or far off, and its election result predictions are often the closest compared to other Venezuelan poll companies.

http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/6032

This work is licensed under a Attribution Non-commercial No Derivatives Creative Commons license
(my emphasis).

------------------------------------------------

Anyone who seeks objectivity on Venezuela and the Chavez government should consider these recent polls on Venezuelans' very high rating of their own well-being and then view this "Extreme World" report in comparison, as to overall impressions. The "Extreme World" report is one man's view--or one production team's view. The polls instead look at the larger picture--polling large sections of the Venezuelan population--and contradict "Extreme World"'s portrait of a population under siege from crime and poverty. And numerous economic reports and stats testify to the Chavez government's great success at decreasing poverty.

A balanced view would be: Yes, Venezuela still has problems. It isn't, as "Extreme World" words it, a "socialist utopia." But there have been significant improvements in the quality of life for most Venezuelans, as reflected by these polls and by economic information.

It's one thing to focus on problems to draw attention to them, and try to get them solved. It's quite another to characterize an entire country and its government by seeking out only the most negative information and images. I don't think "Extreme World" is trying to be helpful and I don't think it gives a rat's ass for the lives and fates of the people whose tragedies and suffering it films. It is a propaganda piece.


joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
4. We'll see how Venezuela feels on O7.
Tue Sep 18, 2012, 09:02 PM
Sep 2012

edit: BTW, I bet you'd cheer Extreme World's expose on the violence in Chicago.

It's only because they went to Venezuela and the video was posted here that gots you upset, imo.

Peace Patriot

(24,010 posts)
5. You're a mind-reader, too? You know what "gots me upset"?
Tue Sep 18, 2012, 11:21 PM
Sep 2012

I'm not upset, actually. I'm disappointed. "Extreme World"'s report starts off as informative and then turns a dark corner into propaganda. I was hoping for an objective view of these issues (crime, poverty, prisons) in Venezuela--unlike the view of the rightwing opposition in Venezuela (and of yourself), and the Corporate Press, which is so slanted and NEVER credits the Chavez government with ANYTHING, despite its provable accomplishments and the support of most Venezuelans.

That's not what this is--an objective view of these issues. It paints Venezuela as a country under siege from crime and poverty. This is NOT how the vast majority of Venezuelans view their country and it is, objectively, on numerous fact-based criteria, wrong.

It is one thing to do an expose of crime or poverty with the purpose of moving society to do something about. It is quite another to create a political tract for propaganda purposes. My judgement of this report is that it is the latter. Someone, here, could make an equally slanted report by ONLY going into gangbanger-afflicted neighborhoods and central city hospital emergency rooms, and hanging out with the homeless, or skinheads and "survivalists," to the exclusion of everything and everyone else, and most people here wouldn't recognize the actual country they live in.

Yes, there are problems here--these and others (widespread, slow-killing poverty and political disempowerment being among the worst, here, in my opinion, since they affect everyone except the 1%). But, Lordy, most people don't live in fear of gangbangers nor routinely follow bloody, shot-up bodies into the emergency room. Even the seemingly routine "random massacres" by psychos with guns, here, are not that typical and not an everyday anxiety to most people. To present the USA as all gangbanger shootings, "random massacres," skinheads and homeless people is simply wrong.

The value of an expose often lay in its contrast to the normal lives of ordinary people. This "Extreme World" report leaves out all balance and contrast. It tries to create the impression that Venezuela is pervasively criminal and impoverished, and that is exactly the opposite of how the great majority of Venezuelans view their own country and their own experience, and it flies in the face of many, many objective facts.

I have been involved in advocating for excluded people--the very poor, the neglected, young people caught up in crime, excluded racial groups--all my life. I have no squeamishness about exposes of suffering and crime and I know well enough how industrial society--whoever is in charge--contributes to alienation and "forgotten people." I wanted a balanced report: what are the problems? how is the government addressing them? what policies are ineffective or failed? what policies are working or show promise? as well as, who, specifically, is committing crimes or being victimized--their personal stories--and how this information fits in, in a country that has done so much to decrease poverty and disempowerment?

For instance, the prison shown is one that the prisoners have taken over, in a state of siege with the national guard. It is NOT a typical prison run by the government. The people lying in their own waste, ill and neglected, for instance, are the victims of other prisoners, not prison authorities or the government. The prevalence of firearms--however the prisoners got them--is WHY the prisoners control this prison. To immediately get back control of it, the national guard would likely have to kill a whole lot of prisoners. That may be the government's dilemma. The "Extreme World" report says NOTHING about this. It mentions that the national guard is outside the prison but does not interview their commander or other authorities, nor mention any effort to do so. It gives us no sense of perspective and no time-frame about these prisoner-inflicted conditions.

This is not reporting. It is sensationalism and propaganda. It says: Venezuela is all gone to shit--the criminals are in charge. I KNOW that is not true--from numerous sources. The report makes no effort, at all, to put the images that it shows in context.. And, I'm sorry, but "Carlos the Jackal"'s brother talking generally about the Bolivarian Revolution does NOT answer this fundamental objection to the report. It is a highly selective report, giving a highly distorted view of Venezuela and its government and its people.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
6. The whole POINT of Etreme World is to VISIT EXTREME PLACES.
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 12:53 AM
Sep 2012

It doesn't PRETEND to offer SOLUTIONS and if it wasn't for Carlos the Jackal's brother insisting on an interview to try to PROPAGANDIZE Ross Kemp he probably wouldn't have even felt like putting his opinion out there.

Instead he was SUBJECTED to CHAVEZMO PROPAGANDA about gondola's and how the government has "reduced poverty." What Ross Kemp DOESN'T mention is how VIOLENCE INCREASED since Chavez got elected.

Whether the government wants to send National Guard into the prisons is irrelevant. It should've never got that bad to begin with. Now the government is 100% responsible for the HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS that are happening in those prisons. Likely because the GOVERNMENT GUARDS get BRIBES for ALLOWING TRAFFICKING TO HAPPEN.

How hard would it be to CLAMP DOWN on the PRISON DRUG AND GUN TRADE? Very simple. Just search everyone going in and everyone going out. Easy peasy. But the CRONY CAPITALISTS make TOO MUCH MONEY with the PRISON INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX THE WAY IT IS.

The report is accurate. Venezuela is still one of the top 5 most deadly places on the planet. You can't change that and neither can or will the Chavista's because the Boligarchs get way too much money from the chaos that is happening there. If the Venezuelan people weren't in constant fear for their lives they might actually ask what HAPPENED to the FONDEN MONEY. What HAPPENED to the Aban Perl. But Chavez owns and controls the media so IMPORTANT QUESTIONS like that aren't asked.

edit: btw, I await your critique of Extreme World as it relates to Chicago.

Peace Patriot

(24,010 posts)
7. "Propaganda" about how the gov't reduced poverty? It's been proven with actual facts.
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 07:15 AM
Sep 2012

You're calling the UN Commission on Latin America and the Caribbean liars? They rated Venezuela "THE most equal country in Latin America," on income distribution, due to the Chavez government's anti-poverty programs. Are you calling the Millennium Project liars? That Project includes Hillary Clinton, whose State Department puts out anti-Chavez propaganda! The Millennium Project said that Venezuela, unlike many countries, had not just made progress on all of its Millennium goals (mostly anti-poverty goals), it had met all of its Millennium goals. Are you calling the Gallup polling organization liars? They ranked Venezuela fifth in the world on its citizens' sense of well-being!

This is not propaganda. This is reality--from a number of objective sources. Extreme statements like this, of yours-- ("Instead he was SUBJECTED to CHAVEZMO PROPAGANDA about ... how the government has 'reduced poverty.'&quot --make all of your statements suspect. It is not propaganda that Chavez has significantly reduced poverty. It is a recognized fact. Why can't you just say, yes, Chavez has significantly reduced poverty but there is also a crime problem and he and his government haven't done enough about that or have failed miserably on that score (if that's what you want to say)? Why does this failure or weakness in the country--for surely you don't assert that Chavez approves of murder and other crimes and prisoners taking over a prison--which the government has not solved, drive you to such extremity, that you would deny facts and reality on another issue?

One of your suspect statements: The Chavistas can't change the crime rate "because the Boligarchs get way too much money from the chaos that is happening there." This is not just suspect--as to being wrong--it is incoherent. How are "the Boligarchs" profiting from prisoners taking over a prison? Or from a gang of kidnappers off in the hills? Or from street murders?

Another of your suspect--indeed, provably wrong--statements: "...Chavez owns and controls the media." This is simply not true. Chavez has regulated the broadcast media in ways that are similar to our late, lamented "Fairness Doctrine" here--a right that every democratic government in the world asserts. Nobody lets just anything be broadcast on the public airwaves!

Of course, the corporate media powers in Venezuela would like to have the power to mount a successful coup d'etat. Their strenuous efforts in 2002 failed. No legitimate government would or should tolerate what they tried to do in 2002 and would clearly do again, if they weren't rightfully and lawfully curtailed by the government acting in the interest of the people and the country.

Beyond that--legitimate regulation--and, in addition, jawboning (Chavez criticizing the media) with them jawboning right back (criticizing Chavez, often with far rightwing and fascist views), the broadcast media, in Venezuela, is more than half owned and controlled by big private corporations, and print media is about half and half, as to leftist and rightist politics. This is still not reflective of the population but it is better than it used to be, especially in regard to public access to the media.

I have to laugh when anybody asserts that Chavez is "against free speech." WHO denied the members of the Chavez government access to the public airwaves during the 2002 coup attempt? WHO denied the legitimate members of the elected government THEIR right of free speech? These very same big private corporate media monopolists, who crybaby about "free speech" because they can't dominate political debate any more and kick everybody else out of it! Who are the tyrants? Who are the silencers of "free speech"? And the rest of the corporate media supports them because they, too, want to dominate and monopolize political debate and appoint governments "of, by and for" themselves.

The majority of Venezuelans have never had such true freedom of the press, as now. THEIR free speech has been enhanced in order to create balance between the elite few and the non-elite majority, between the interests of the 1% and the interests of the 99%. That is as it should be. Neither we, nor Venezuelans, should feel excluded from our own public airwaves or should have to listen to rightwing views, 24/7, on all channels all the time. That is not democracy. That is not free speech. That is corporate tyranny.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
9. Almost EVERY Latin American country REDUCED PROVERTY.
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 07:53 PM
Sep 2012

The credit Chavez gets for "reducing poverty" is a JOKE.

Brazil and Chile reduced poverty FASTER and MORE EFFECTIVELY. WITHOUT a MASSIVE INCREASE IN CRIME.

Brazil and Chile SPENT MORE on POVERTY REDUCTION while Venezuela SPENT LESS and in fact kept a LOT of rich people in power. Consider billionaire Gustavo Cisneros who hosted the 2002 failed coupsters at his Venezuelan TV station which is still on the air.

Yes, it is PROPAGANDA to continue to highlight the poverty reduction and DEFLECT from the increase in crime, violence, murders, and human rights violations happening in Venezuelan prisons.

During 2002 Chavez was not denied access to the airwaves, btw, they merely did a split screen and Chavez didn't like it because he has near daily cadenas where he sits around and bolivates. Chavez was trying to use the chain to stop the media reporting on the protests. Well it's all good now because the media can't even report on protests because if they do they get a fine (look at Globovisions recent reporting on the prison riots that the government fined them millions over for "inciting fear&quot .

Peace Patriot

(24,010 posts)
10. This is an unreasonable view, joshcryer, that Chavez's poverty programs/reductions are "a joke."
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 04:25 PM
Sep 2012

Again, this is such an extreme and patently untrue statement that it makes me distrust everything you say. The recognition that the Chavez government has received has come from outside the government and it has been extraordinary. And Venezuelans' view of their own country supports it--not to mention the large majorities that vote for Chavez.

I think you are in danger of missing something very important, that, while Chavez may have failures--or, I should say that, while any political revolution has its failures, since this revolution involves many, many people--the Chavez government's accomplishments are significant and they have been achieved by means of a general, communal, social effort of Venezuelans to improve their country--to make it more equitable and more democratic. Chavez is not doing things on his own (generally). He has mobilized support for his government's programs and has inspired people, and not just Venezuelans, with the notion, for instance, that poverty CAN be significantly reduced.

If you can't grasp this, then you are going to go around in a state of apoplexy--in a rage at others, whom you may come to think of as stupid or blind or evil. I don't think that the many Venezuelans who support the Chavez government are stupid or blind or evil--nor am I or others who appreciate what Venezuelans and their government have done. I think that Venezuelans voted themselves a "New Deal"--just as our people did here in the 1930s--and they are pretty happy about having done that. Does it have flaws? Of course. Is it a "socialist utopia" (Extreme World's phrase)? Of course not. Should the government be voted out? That's for Venezuelans, who know it intimately, to decide. With the entire Corporate Press, here and there, ragging on it every day, they surely have sufficient anti-Chavez information to make that judgement.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
11. With 9 million people making $5 a day and billions being thrown at shell corporations...
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 09:12 PM
Sep 2012

...yes, it is a joke. I expect much better of a socialist country. How many people could've had a house if the Fonden money didn't disappear? How many people could've been fed and clothed and educated if the Aban Pearl wasn't being funded via a ghost shell corporation by a Venezuelan and some other conspirators in the UK and Singapore (to the tune of $370,000 a day over paid!)?

Only people use "they reduced poverty" to deflect from this abject failure of the "revolution." No, the revolution must be viewed in full, from the poverty reduction (good), to the crime rate increase (bad), to the kidnapping increase (bad), to the murder increase (bad), to the drug trade (bad), to the smuggling (bad), to the price increases (bad), to the food shortages (bad), to the "import economy" (very bad for a socialist country because you're beholden to outside forces, most of which are capitalist!).

I don't think that people who supported Chavez were evil or stupid. I think they got more than they bargained for because they had higher expectations for Chavez and for state socialism. It was a given that Chavez' approach would lead to blatant cronyism. People want to get paid, and so corruption runs deep in these types of system with no oversight and fear of recrimination when something bad happens. You look at the big refinery fires (one of which caused by lightning burns to this day). Why isn't the head of PDVSA fired? Even freaking BP fired their own executive and they're a big multinational corporation. Why can't the people responsible be held accountable? The Aban Pearl is swept under the rug by the government controlled media. It is such a big deal that those who set up the shell corporation in Singapore should be in jail! But the "revolution" would be "tarnished" if those people were arrested.

That's objectively false, though, as we see with Santos who, after being elected, went after the paramilitary groups and cracked down hard on Uribes' top to bottom corruption (you'll note that I don't think that corruption is only for "socialist" states, here).

We'll see on O7 what the Venezuelans decide. I frankly think that when the Chavistas tried to set up Capriles and have one of his campaign guys receive bribe money (by no other than a head of Chavez' government!) and he fired that guy within minutes (it was literally under an hour after the story broke, instead of reporting on Capriles' campaign guy receiving money they had no choice but to play Capriles' denunciation). That played very well with the Venezuelan people because that's the kind of thing that they want to see happen. They don't want shell corporations stealing their money.

 

naaman fletcher

(7,362 posts)
12. Fonden money?
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 10:49 PM
Sep 2012

You will never, ever, get PP to address billions of dollars taken, off books, and spent by a single man (chavez). It would destroy her worldview too much to admit that it is even happening.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
13. Aben Pearl is worse, imo.
Fri Sep 21, 2012, 12:30 AM
Sep 2012

At least Fonden can be dismissed as a "bureaucratic" headache where money got lost (though unaccountability is something that we shouldn't want) through hundreds of various outlets. An audit is still necessary though and it will be interesting to learn what happened to that money. I suspect a lot of it was graft to various party supporters for being good subservient people, so that won't be a big deal. What will be a big deal is if someone was siphoning off hundreds of thousands, which given the case of the management of Fonden, is a real possiblity, but we don't have evidence for that as of yet.

Aben Pearl is arguably woeful negligence on behalf of the government. Someone somewhere had to sign off on a shell corporation being used to siphon $370,000 away from the Venezuelan people every day. Something like that isn't going to be easily missed. $700,000,000 dollars. Gone. Stolen from the Venezuelan people. It is mind boggling. It is inconcievable. While the billions lost from Fonden are larger we don't know of one single instance of such a massive robbery. If 50,000-100,000 close party officials got $10,000 from Fonden over time, yeah, that's pretty cronyist and bullshit (and it adds up), but it's not $370,000 a day!

 

Marksman_91

(2,035 posts)
15. Peace Patriot, I'd like for you to some day actually visit Venezuela
Sun Sep 30, 2012, 11:52 PM
Sep 2012

I'm Venezuelan myself, having lived most of my life in Caracas, and I tell you, 14 years of Chávez have only been detrimental to our society. This video shows it quite explicitly.

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