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Judi Lynn

(160,527 posts)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 02:13 AM Apr 2013

Leftist priests: Pope Francis can fix church 'in ruins'

Leftist priests: Pope Francis can fix church 'in ruins'
By Jessica Weiss
Associated Press
April 28, 2013 at 1:00 am

Buenos Aires, Argentina — A new pope from Latin America who wants to build "a church for the poor" is stirring hopes among advocates of liberation theology, a movement of social activism that alarmed former popes by delving into leftist politics.

Pope Francis has what it takes to fix a church "in ruins" that has "lost its respect for what is sacred," prominent liberation theologian Leonardo Boff said Saturday.

"With this pope, a Jesuit and a pope from the Third World, we can breathe happiness," Boff said at a Buenos Aires book fair. "Pope Francis has both the vigor and tenderness that we need to create a new spiritual world."

The 74-year-old Brazilian theologian was pressured to remain silent by previous popes who tried to draw a hard line between socially active priests and leftist politics. As Argentina's leading cardinal before he became pope, Francis reinforced this line, suggesting in 2010 that reading the Gospel with a Marxist interpretation only gets priests in trouble.

More: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130428/LIFESTYLE04/304280312#ixzz2Rjgopxsy

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DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
1. Sorry guys
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 02:51 AM
Apr 2013

But until the church agrees to repent of it's arrogance against women and gays, it will not heal, and this is coming from someone who wanted to be a Jesuit growing up.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
11. Poverty is important
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:55 PM
Apr 2013

But as long as Francis is unwilling to allow women and gays their rights, the same people who make poverty will be protected, and sit it out until the next JP2 gets into power.

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)
12. What do you mean by their rights?
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 04:01 PM
Apr 2013

The Pope or the Catholic Church do not confer rights. That falls to secular governments. Do you mean ordination of women? Have you heard this pope say anything about homosexuality? The fact he hasn't indicates to me that he is not so interested in the advancing a retrograde view of Catholicism as Benedict.

How is a failure to ordain women and whatever you have in your mind about its position on LGBT Catholic an impediment to working to help the poor?

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
13. I will Gladly answer you..
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 04:22 PM
Apr 2013

"The Pope or the Catholic Church do not confer rights. That falls to secular governments."

And if you do not think the Catholic Church is twisting arms to ensure that government obeys it, then you need to talk to several anti-abortion and LGBT activists, many of whom are on this very site (Guys and Gals, feel free to chime in, as I am sure you can make this point better than I could.) The church spends MONEY to defeat gay and women's rights issues, in American and abroad. You cannot say that they cannot be held accountable for what governments do when they are outright twisting the hands of polticians, making threats of all sorts, from funding opponents to shooting abortion doctors.

http://www.frcoulter.com/issues/election.html
http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2012/11/01/more-catholic-voting-pressure-politicians-rejecting-jesus-they-believe-in-choice/
http://www.pewforum.org/Politics-and-Elections/The-Catholic-Swing-Vote.aspx
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-23/france-s-gay-marriage-malaise-.html
http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/cameroon-catholic-archbishop-says-gays-are-enemy-creation200812

Have you heard this pope say anything about homosexuality?
As a matter of fact:

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/pope-francis-on-homosexual-unions

he said:
"In the coming weeks, the Argentine people will face a situation whose outcome can seriously harm the family…
At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God's law engraved in our hearts.
This is not simply a political struggle, but an attempt to destroy God's plan. It is not just a bill but a move of the Father of Lies, who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God."

Gee, that sounds all fuzzy, doesn't it?

And to answer the last question:
How is a failure to ordain women and whatever you have in your mind about its position on LGBT Catholic an impediment to working to help the poor?

Simple, because the rich stay rich because they claim to take a moral high ground. They want to keep things as they are, so when you allow one group of people to be discriminated against, you allow all of them to, and you let the powers that be know that you approve of the way they have placed people in their order. You will not help the poor until, in addition to giving them their daily bread, you affirm them as PEOPLE, because if you do not, the powerful will once again summon up every old myth there is to justify stealing back whatever crumbs you gave them, especially after the cute little pope dies, and they can install a fascist bastard in the mode of John Paul II.



BainsBane

(53,032 posts)
14. My point was what he has said as pope
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 05:41 PM
Apr 2013

Not as Archbishop of Buenos Aires. You invoke past actions by the church as evidence of the current papacy. It is not.

Why ordination of women concerns you, I can't begin to imagine. Women actually occupy a greater proportion of lay positions of power within Catholic organizations than they do in corporate America or in the US government. If you're concerned about women, this woman would prefer you focus on the high levels of rape and murder of women in this country, none of which results from the Catholic church. The church is not going to ordain women. If that is your precursor for feeding the poor, you would have many people starve. The misogyny that pervades American society has a far greater impact on my life than anything the church does. The Church does not teach men to rape or tell them it's acceptable to treat women as disposable objects. That is a function of a cultural of misogyny entirely secular in nature. That, not Catholicism, jeopardizes my life by producing a society where 1 in 3 American women are subject to rape or physical abuse by their partners.

I share your opposition to the church's positions on homosexuality. As for money the church spends opposing gay rights, you need to learn a bit about church finances. The money spent by the American Catholic church comes from this country, not the Vatican. To oppose that, you want to focus on the Council of Bishops and conservative archdiocese rather than the Vatican.

Your argument about the link to poverty does not hold water. "The rich stay rich because they claim to take the moral high ground." Where does Catholicism confer a moral high ground on the rich? I'm not sure where you've been in the past fifty years, but the Catholic church is not the home of the rich. Throughout Latin America the rich have fled to evangelical Protestantism. Protestantism tells people they are entitled to their wealth by virtue of God's greater blessing. Catholicism tells them their responsibility is to feed the poor. That is why Protestantism since the Reformation has been the religion of capitalism. That is why the wealthy throughout Latin America have increasingly become Protestants, whereas in this country the majority of the capitalist elite have always been protestants. Most Catholic parishes are very poor. In this country they are filled with Latino immigrants, many undocumented.

The Catholic church challenges capitalist exploitation far more than anyone in the Democratic party does. It sees inequality as inherently illegitimate, and it advances a doctrine of social justice. The Church is most active in the Global South, where the issues that matter most to you are far less important to people. If you want to believe social justice and challenging capitalist exploitation is unimportant, you obviously don't share any values in common with Catholics. So you will never see any value in the church's work in social justice.

There will be no dramatic change in a 2000 year old institution. That is not going to happen. The Pope can effect modest change through tone and emphasis, as he appears to have started to do. He can do so by talking about poverty rather than homosexuality and abortion, obsessions of the last pope. His other influence is in appointing Bishops and Archbishops. The reason the Church hierarchy has become so conservative over the past two papacies is their very conservative appointments to Bishoprics. We will have to see if he does this. If so, that will enable change to take place gradually.

I consider an emphasis on poverty enormously important since that is what the Catholic church does best. Social justice is core to Catholic theology. I believe that addressing poverty is far more important than anything else because it's a matter of human life, something that Americans place virtually no value on--as evidenced by gun proliferation and unprecedented levels of militarization and perpetual war.

Since poverty is something that concerns very few in this country and no one with power, I am glad that someone is standing up for social justice. For those committed to capitalist culture, they have lots of corporate interests in their corner. They can survive one organization that criticizes them.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
16. an analysis of your response
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 08:25 PM
Apr 2013

You said:
Not as Archbishop of Buenos Aires. You invoke past actions by the church as evidence of the current papacy. It is not.

So, unlike any other politician, his worlds in his career mean tnohing? Well, he can go ahead and denounce those words now, right? I'm waiting...

"Your argument about the link to poverty does not hold water. "The rich stay rich because they claim to take the moral high ground." Where does Catholicism confer a moral high ground on the rich?"

As a Latino, I find this statement proof of profound ignorance. Someone who claims to favor liberation theology should now how JP2 crushed it, because it threatened the rich. The church has always taken the wealthy people's side, as shown by the way they handled the sex scandal where priests that raped kids would be shuffled off to the poor brown churches.

"Social justice is core to Catholic theology. I believe that addressing poverty is far more important than anything else because it's a matter of human life, something that Americans place virtually no value on--as evidenced by gun proliferation and unprecedented levels of militarization and perpetual war. "

If you address poverty without addressing the wicked arrogance of the powerful that makes poverty, you ensure that the rich rise up and steal from the poor again. Part of this is that people as not respect as people. meanwhile, Mother Thereesa would glid pvgerty, saying it was beautiful who well those cute brown people were that died.

Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #13)

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)
2. Encouraging, including the beatification movement for Romero.
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 02:53 AM
Apr 2013
Romero's beatification cause languished under popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI due to their opposition to liberation theology, but he was put back on track to becoming a saint days after Francis became pope.


This I knew nothing about:
In 1984, Ratzinger put Boff in Galileo's chair for a Vatican inquisition over his writings, eventually stripping him of his church functions and ordering him to spend a year in "obedient silence." Nearly a decade later, in 1993, the Vatican pressured him again, and he quit the Franciscan order.

The Roman Inquisition was disbanded in 1860. I don't know what the author means by this or what the contemporary process is.




Judi Lynn

(160,527 posts)
4. Liberation theologians welcome Pope Francis who they see embracing a church for the poor
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:19 AM
Apr 2013

Liberation theologians welcome Pope Francis who they see embracing a church for the poor

By Associated Press,
Updated: Sunday, April 28, 1:07 AM

BUENOS AIRES, Argentina — A new pope from Latin America known for ministering to the poor in his country’s slums is raising the hopes of advocates of liberation theology, whose leftist social activism had alarmed previous pontiffs.

~snip~
“Pope Francis comes with the perspective that many of us in Latin America share. In our churches we do not just discuss theological theories, like in European churches. Our churches work together to support universal causes, causes like human rights, from the perspective of the poor, the destiny of humanity that is suffering, services for people living on the margins.”

The liberation theology movement, which seeks to free lives as well as souls, emerged in the 1960s and quickly spread, especially in Latin America. Priests and church laypeople became deeply involved in human rights and social struggles. Some were caught up in clashes between repressive governments and rebels, sometimes at the cost of their lives.

The movement’s martyrs include El Salvador’s Archbishop Oscar Romero, whose increasing criticism of his country’s military-run government provoked his assassination as he was saying Mass in 1980. He was killed by thugs connected to the military hierarchy a day after he preached that “no soldier is obliged to obey an order that is contrary to the will of God.” His killing presaged a civil war that killed nearly 90,000 over the next 12 years.

More:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/liberation-theologians-welcome-pope-francis-who-they-see-embracing-a-church-for-the-poor/2013/04/28/d3e0967a-afc9-11e2-b59e-adb43da03a8a_story.html

Warpy

(111,254 posts)
5. Good luck to him and the Red Sox
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:23 AM
Apr 2013

he's got an enormous bureaucracy of entrenched conservatives. He's going to have to overcome them to do anything but a few cosmetic changes.

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
6. This is encouraging news. I hope they also remember Monsignor Juan José Gerardi Conedera
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 12:09 PM
Apr 2013

Monsignor Juan José Gerardi Conedera (27 December 1922 – 26 April 1998)[1] was a Guatemalan Roman Catholic bishop and human rights defender who was beaten to death two days after releasing a report on victims of the Guatemalan Civil War.

Between 1980 and 1983 El Quiché saw increased levels of violence in the conflict between the Army and various rebel guerrilla factions. Hundreds of Roman Catholic catechists and heads of Christian communities, most of whom were of Maya origin, were brutally murdered. Gerardi repeatedly asked the military authorities to control their actions.

While serving as president of the Guatemalan Conference of Bishops, he spoke out openly about the Spanish embassy fire of 31 January 1980 in which 39 people lost their lives and which subsequently the Government of Guatemala became suspected of starting. That same year he was called to the Vatican to attend a synod. Upon returning to Guatemala he was denied entry to the country. He travelled to neighbouring El Salvador, which refused to grant him right of asylum, and he settled temporarily in Costa Rica where he remained until military president Romeo Lucas García was overthrown in 1982, allowing him to return to Guatemala.

...

On 28 August 1984, he was appointed auxiliary bishop of the Archdiocese of Guatemala.

National Reconciliation Commission


In 1988 the Conference of Bishops assigned Gerardi and Rodolfo Quezada Toruño to serve on the National Reconciliation Commission. This later led to the creation of the Office of Human Rights of the Archbishopric (Oficina de Derechos Humanos del Arzobispado, ODHA), which to date provides assistance for the victims of human rights violation. In that context work began on the Recovery of Historical Memory (REMHI) project. On 24 April 1998, REMHI presented the results of its work in the report Guatemala: Nunca más. This report carried statements from thousands of witnesses and victims of repression during the Civil War and placed the blame for the vast majority of the violations on the government and the army.

The task of historical recovery that Gerardi and his team pursued was fundamental in the subsequent work of the UN-sponsored Historical Clarification Commission (CEH), set up within the framework of the 1996 peace process.

Although the Vatican, the REMHI and Gerardi were accused of furthering Marxist propaganda because the REMHI blames the National Army for the vast majority of deaths during the civil war, the UN Truth Commission Report came to very similar conclusions.
Assassination

On 26 April 1998, two days after the publication of REMHI's report, Bishop Gerardi was bludgeoned to death in the garage of his home in Guatemala City.[2] His assailants used a concrete slab, disfiguring him to the extent that his face was unrecognisable and identification of the corpse was made by means of his episcopal ring.

On 8 June 2001, three army officers – Col. Byron Disrael Lima Estrada and Capt. Byron Lima Oliva (father and son), and José Obdulio Villanueva – were convicted of his murder and sentenced to 30-year prison terms. A priest, Mario Orantes, whom the court had identified as an accomplice, was sentenced to 20 years. The case was precedent-setting in that it was the first time that members of the military had faced trial before civilian courts. The defendants appealed, and in March 2005 an appeals court lowered the Limas' sentences to 20 years. Orantes' sentence was left unchanged and Villanueva had been killed in prison before the appeal verdict was reached. These revised prison terms were upheld by the Constitutional Court in April 2007.

The elder Estrada had been trained at the School of Americas.[3]

...

Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Jos%C3%A9_Gerardi_Conedera



The 15th anniversary of Bishop Gerardi's death comes at a time when Guatemala is once again experiencing a wave of polarizing rhetoric around human rights and post-armed-conflict justice issues—rhetoric that includes damning words for the Catholic church.

One example: "The Farce of Genocide," a recent paid campaign in a major Guatemalan newspaper by Guatemala's "Foundation Against Terrorism" (Fundación Contra El Terrorismo; blog, Facebook). The group was founded by Ricardo Méndez Ruíz, whose father was a military officer and minister of the interior under Rios Montt. The 20-page newspaper insert warned of an "International Marxist Conspiracy" transmitted through the Catholic Church; it included archival photographs said to be proof of &quot Catholic) nuns manipulating indigenous people against" the US-backed former military dictator at the center of the current genocide trial.

The insert says Gerardi was a Marxist guerrilla enabler. "He was insubordinate to the Pope, arming the guerrilla's conspiracy and being complicit with the terrorists," the ad reads.

...

http://boingboing.net/2013/04/26/guatemala-a-march-for-an-assa.html

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
7. Monsignor Juan José Gerardi Conedera (a bit graphic)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 02:31 PM
Apr 2013

This is how they found him, in the garage of the parochial home of the Church of San Sebastián, bludgeoned to death 2 days after he released his courageous report "Guatemala Never Again", the most comprehensive report ever made on the atrocities. His report contained the names of 26 people responsible for the atrocities.





The complicit Guatemalan authorities, with help from the FBI, first arrested a drunk but they were forced to release him after a few days because their flimsy evidence wasn't fooling anyone.

They then implicated a dog, a German Shepherd named Balu, and said the dog killed him. The dog belonged to another priest named Father Mario Orantes Vajera who was arrested and jailed along with 3 others despite the objections of the villagers who said Father Orantes had nothing to do with the murder and that he in no way matched the description of the man who was seen fleeing from the murder scene but stopped to buy cigarettes from a corner stand. Father Mario Orantes Vajera had actually collaborated on the report so by jailing him, two brave men were diabolically shut up. Three other men were also arrested and jailed but no one's bought that story either.

Judi Lynn

(160,527 posts)
10. I remember hearing of his murder. It was so shocking it seems only yesterday.
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:41 PM
Apr 2013

The inexplicable brutality of it was overwhelming. It was crude, vicious, unbelievably brutal.

Seeing there is a direct timeline connection really resonates, unfortunately. It doesn't leave much doubt about what and who would have been behind it.

The same people are running Guatemala. What a shame.

 

ocpagu

(1,954 posts)
8. Leonardo Boff and the leftist priests have high expectations on Pope Francis.
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:20 PM
Apr 2013

I hope the Pope responds to such expectations accordingly. Not sure how much a man can do to change the nature of a millenium-old institution, though. Even a Pope.

I posted a thread with an interview with Boff some weeks ago. It may be an interesting complement to this information.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11089471

Judi Lynn

(160,527 posts)
9. Leonardo Boff seems to be a wonderful person to have on his side.
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:37 PM
Apr 2013

Just a little change would be helpful, it would seem, but you are so right concerning a very old tradition, it's slow moving.

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